Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 3008963 times)

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2675 on: 2016-04-06 14:45:42 »
so I fixed the music for the Cloud Revealed scene; it's now around 4 minutes long.  Spy_dragon, you were right - it also needs a modification in nvmkin1 to stop music0 playing.  It's a complete mystery to me why this instruction is ignored in the PSX version  but, for some reason, it is. I think I'm going to have to ask Mystere.

Unfortunately, that also didn't completely fix the issue - because the PC version is getting to the Sephiroth scene too early - and I don't know why (my guess is the screens load faster in PC).  So now I am recording both scenes and checking them side by side.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2676 on: 2016-04-06 16:02:48 »
Yup, it's the fades.  PC is faster.  I know that fading can be set at a specific time too and I'll probably have to do that to the fields in question to make the time add up.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2677 on: 2016-04-06 20:30:05 »
Update:

So... the fades are bad on PC.  The default times are different to PSX.  The fade out is slower, but the fade in MUCH faster (I expect that, since PCs can load the maps faster than the PSX - so maybe the porting team tweaked the values).

We don't really want to fix the latter...  slower fades are not a good thing. So - I've corrected the fade out to be 15-16 frames (looks like that's what the PSX is) - and left Fade in at around 30.  This does mean the cutscene above is broken (since it relies on perfect timing for the music to sync) - but I can correct the script to get the same outcome.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-06 21:23:11 by DLPB »

cold_spirit

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2678 on: 2016-04-06 22:24:02 »
Thank you so much for looking into that music issue! I'm seriously stoked that it's being recognized and addressed. Cloud's revelation is my favorite scene in the game and I could never get into the PC version solely because that scene was off (I'm picky, I know).

I'd like to address other music issues between the PC and PSX release here:
1. "Turk's Theme" quits playing during the scene where Reno walks over the flowers in Aerith's church. In the PSX version, it plays continually without any interruptions.
2. "Who are you?" is replaced by "Infiltrating Shinra" when Cloud sees Jenova in the Shinra Headquarters. "Who are you?" plays briefly when Cloud is looking into the chamber, but then immediately quits once he falls over. In the PSX version, it played until Cloud, Barret, and Tifa were done talking.
3. "Those Chosen by the Planet" is replaced by "Under the Rotting Pizza" when Cloud runs into the mako reactor during the Nibelheim flashback. Having "Under the Rotting Pizza" interrupt it seriously messes with the mood between the scenes.
4. Opening a chest in the Cargo Ship causes the sound effect of the ship's motor to stop playing.

I was able to fix issue 1, 2, 3 by simply editing the game's script with Makou Reactor. If you're interested I can post the solutions here, but they aren't particularity interesting. Most can be solved by simply moving the line that calls for the music to play.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2679 on: 2016-04-06 22:34:43 »
I'd like to address other music issues between the PC and PSX release here:

1. "Turk's Theme" quits playing during the scene where Reno walks over the flowers in Aerith's church. In the PSX version, it plays continually without any interruptions.


Already fixed ;)

2. "Who are you?" is replaced by "Infiltrating Shinra" when Cloud sees Jenova in the Shinra Headquarters. "Who are you?" plays briefly when Cloud is looking into the chamber, but then immediately quits once he falls over. In the PSX version, it played until Cloud, Barret, and Tifa were done talking.


Not sure if fixed. This does not sound familiar so will definitely have a look. 

3. "Those Chosen by the Planet" is replaced by "Under the Rotting Pizza" when Cloud runs into the mako reactor during the Nibelheim flashback. Having "Under the Rotting Pizza" interrupt it seriously messes with the mood between the scenes.

Same as above.  Although this one is definitely not fixed. Also, can you find me a video?

4. Opening a chest in the Cargo Ship causes the sound effect of the ship's motor to stop playing.

I will definitely look into this.  The PC version doesn't emulate the akao and akao2 opcodes correctly in certain areas. It's easily fixable, because you can use transitions or other work arounds to achieve same effect.

Post your changes for 2 and 3 anyway, because it will save time.  I can look at it and make sure.

And thanks for the report!  8)
« Last Edit: 2016-04-06 22:53:15 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2680 on: 2016-04-07 00:47:10 »
Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.

I think the gods put FF7 here to test my will - see if I would break.

It turns out that the scroll is also broken in PC version.  Same code = different scroll.  In PSX it scrolls left to right in one particular scene.  In PC it starts at top and moves down.  I don't understand why.  But I'm on it.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-07 01:00:20 by DLPB »

cold_spirit

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2681 on: 2016-04-07 01:26:03 »
2.
Here's the PC version (sorry you have to listen to the Yamaha soundtrack):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P_2DchUeXg&t=27m24s
Here's the original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh_t28uzp9U&t=22m2s

3.
PC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZFFMCDGSRQ&t=7m55s
PSX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RzRjvpdsUg&t=34m48s

I'm trying to find documentation of my old solutions. I installed Reunion over them  :-P

EDIT:

Solutions:
2. In blin67_3, I changed the 'Init' script by putting 'Play music #0' inside the conditional 'If $GameMoment != 275 (else go to label 1)'. I can't test it but I believe I fixed it so "Infiltrating Shinra" no longer plays, but "Who are you?" will still cut out too early.

3. In mtnvl6b, I changed the 'Init' script by putting 'Play music #0' inside the conditional 'If $GameMoment != 376 (else go to label 2)'. Again, this logic could still cut off "Those Chosen by the Planet" too soon.

Hope that helps! Gosh, you're gonna make me play through the whole game again and document what I notice...
« Last Edit: 2016-04-07 01:54:23 by cold_spirit »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2682 on: 2016-04-07 01:43:57 »
I'll fix those up in a jiffy :)  Thanks!

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2683 on: 2016-04-07 02:08:48 »
Told you I'd suss it:

The dodgy opcode is:  63

http://wiki.qhimm.com/view/FF7/Field/Script/Opcodes/63_SCRLA

Original psx has this as type 1.  Type 1 is defined on Wiki as instantaneous scroll to the group member specified. This is failing on the PC version of the game (when incorrect field model is set). It probably doesn't work at all on PC in this situation. In order to make this work in the Cloud Revealed scene [nvdun3], use type 0 (no scroll) or type 1 with the correct group (yti) . I don't understand how "no scroll" and "instantaneous" differ. These should both do the same thing.  I have no idea why nvdun3 scroll to incorrect group fails on PC, but not on PSX (unless they fail in different ways).  It should actually fail on both.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-07 16:06:04 by DLPB »

Salk

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2684 on: 2016-04-07 06:37:03 »
I simply love how you can find (sometimes with help like real fans like cold_spirit here above) small quirks in the game engine and often come with a solution!

Please do not let the gods destroy you, DLPB! ;)

jmp434

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2685 on: 2016-04-07 08:15:58 »
Thank you for the answer "White", only now I see ...

I'm still struggling with this forum being given that I do not understand English ... It's a hassle not to have learned ...

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2686 on: 2016-04-07 17:14:55 »
The fade out issue is being fixed.  I've had to record psx fades and compare them to PC.  This is how they differ (with a frame or so inaccuracy possible):

1.733s (52 frames) total PC fade
3.4s (102 frames) total PSX fade

Difference: 1.667s (50 frames). PCs full fade from out to in is 1.667s faster than PSX.

PSX uses 16 frames to fully darken the screen, and another 16 to relight the next map.  The remaining 70 frames (2.33s) is just the darkness you see between. The PC only has 4 such frames. I am assuming this is also set somewhere.

So I've made PC do the same - except it still has 4 frames of darkness.  The result is

16 + 16 + 4 = 36 frames (1.2s total fade)

that makes the PC around 66 frames (2.2s) faster than PSX when using The Reunion. 

The Cloud revealed scene has 7 fades.  So 7 * 2.2 = 15.4

I need to extend the scene by deliberately prolonging the fades there to conform to PSX and make it around 15s longer (it's actually different to this because of other considerations - so I'll use trial and error to bridge the gap).  If anyone wants to correct the scene without Reunion, I can supply the scripts, and they can edit the prolong fade parts to adjust it to the music (which I have also now corrected).
« Last Edit: 2016-04-07 17:19:43 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2687 on: 2016-04-08 02:02:50 »
The Cloud Revealed scene is fixed :)  I'll upload a vid.

White Wind

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2688 on: 2016-04-08 02:35:34 »
Congrats :)

I've had an idea.
Since Wutai is FFVII's Japan in their world, what do you think about using Japanese suffixes for some persons' name? (if they're already present in the Japanese version of course)
Only for the people of Wutai, saying Godot-sama, Yuffie-chan, that'd be totally legit in such a place, bring some colours and define more their culture, and such suffixes have become quite well known thanks to manga and anime.
They surely wouldn't look out of place.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2689 on: 2016-04-08 02:51:40 »
No, that would be a violation of localization ;)  Plus Wutai is not just Japan - it's heavily (and mostly) Chinese. Da Zhao is also Chinese:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Zhao_Temple

Luksy would know more about which parts are and are not Japanese influenced, but all I can think of is some of Yuffie's weapons.  Pagodas are chinese, as well.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-08 03:01:48 by DLPB »

luksy

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2690 on: 2016-04-08 03:32:08 »
It isn't Japan, it's a made-up town on a made-up planet that's a mish mash of East Asian stereotypes. Even if it were literally Japan I wouldn't want to see chans and samas at all unless there were no other way to convey their context (assuming they even appear in the original text at all).
« Last Edit: 2016-04-08 03:36:48 by luksy »

White Wind

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2691 on: 2016-04-08 13:48:47 »
Interesting. A mish mash and mostly Chinese. And their god even comes from the old testament  x)

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2692 on: 2016-04-08 22:53:32 »
Most of the enemies around Wutai have their names written in kanji (do their names also make sense/make more sense if read in Chinese?), while most other monsters in the game have English-based (katakana) names.

When I noticed this I thought it might have been better for the localisers to just romanise the names rather than translating them. This distinction is something the developers deliberately did that gets entirely lost in translation. Romanising the names instead doesn't lost much because the enemies names are rather boring -- like "Bizarre Bug" and "Thunderbird", and instead we get things like "Kaikichū" and "Raijinchō" [they actually use Raijincho in Crisis Core--that game also has a sandaabaado enemy so the dinstinction is necessary].

Maybe it's something you might consider.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2693 on: 2016-04-08 23:00:23 »
Yeah - the Japanese kanji comes from Hanzi (as I am sure you know), so it's possible they wanted it sounding a certain way. But enemy names are in Kanji elsewhere in the game, so it would be a bit weird to decide that here the laws don't apply. From what I can see there's nothing especially chinese about the naming - but Luksy will shed more light on it :)

JBedford128

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2694 on: 2016-04-08 23:25:00 »
Most of the other kanji enemy names are for human enemies - soldiers. Rather than sounding like a cool fantasy name as with most monsters, these are meant to convey a military position to the players.

I decided to check the list for other enemies: There's the XCannon which does the "mega ultimate extreme" thing like Omnislash does. The Unknown enemy's names aren't really meant to be names, they're just "we don't know what these are" and therefore to convey that meaning having their name be "unidentified" in Japanese makes sense. And then there's the Gi Spector, which in the same way isn't meant to be the name of a monster in the VII world, they're just "a spectre of the Gi tribe".

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2695 on: 2016-04-09 00:01:42 »
Also X canon is Chinese ;)  It's the super dragon canon.  Still - if anything, the chinese romanization would need to be used with those creatures and not the Japanese.  I'll see what luksy thinks.  Chinese influences work better to a Japanese viewer than they do to us.  Chinese weapon names / proper nouns and so forth that are established in our history are of course left alone in this relocalization.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-09 00:04:07 by DLPB »

luksy

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2696 on: 2016-04-09 00:10:15 »
Quote
Most of the enemies around Wutai have their names written in kanji

I never noticed that, but it makes sense now that you've pointed it out. At least two enemies, Rangda and Garuda, are straight out of Asian mythology, I guess they kept the theme running with the names they gave to their own creations.

As for transliterating the names...it makes sense given the context (except Raijincho, which is just the Japanese translation of Thuderbird, not the other way round), we don't translate shiba inu as "firewood dog" after all. At the same time most people know what a shiba inu is, which wouldn't be the case with Kaikichū, then again as you say the names aren't all that great when translated anyway.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2697 on: 2016-04-09 02:08:04 »
I've had a look into this. It may be that the Japanese writers wanted the enemy names to be in kanji because that suits the flavour of the area - but placing that into Japanese or Chinese looks really poor in the English when you consider all the enemies in this area.

Not to mention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_(mythology)

Is also based in mythos.  It's probably best to leave it to English names.  The kanji give a uniqueness to a Japanese player that can't be replicated into English the same way.  Romanizing the symbols doesn't do it any justice.

I do absolutely understand that the kanji is likely deliberate, but all things considered, the romanization of it doesn't capture the same feeling - and moreover meaning is lost as a consequence. This is also true of Chinese weapons - but these are established in our real history (Chinese history) and under those names. I don't think we are gaining anything by calling Thunderbird (itself mythology) Raijin or whatever. And it would also mean doing likewise with the other enemies here.

Still, this was an important point and needed discussing.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-09 02:15:35 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2698 on: 2016-04-09 05:41:23 »
2.
Here's the PC version (sorry you have to listen to the Yamaha soundtrack):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P_2DchUeXg&t=27m24s
Here's the original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh_t28uzp9U&t=22m2s

3.
PC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZFFMCDGSRQ&t=7m55s
PSX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RzRjvpdsUg&t=34m48s



The underlying issue is that the lock music function is broken.  You can fix it by patching memory (or associated address in exe).  See here:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=16893.msg239649#new

That will also fix quite a few other errors (including the above) that exist due to this bug.  It's better to fix the underlining cause if possible than keep working script around it.  Unfortunately, some of the other bugs are a lot harder to fix.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-15 05:22:57 by DLPB »

White Wind

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2699 on: 2016-04-10 08:20:16 »
From what I remember, the first phase of the parade where you have to align with the rank and show off for the TV, is broken.
I recall, was on PSX, I had tried it over and over for an hour to figure out once and for all what you're really supposed to do there,
and I ended up doing pretty good every time (aligning at first try, right in lign, rifle moves perfectly synched) but always I was getting the lower rewards.
And then I noticed that joining the rank and just mashing [Circle] brainlessly (which looks totally disordered) gets you the best score... that's stupid