Author Topic: I guess that's it, guys  (Read 10567 times)

Covarr

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #25 on: 2015-06-26 16:30:32 »
they're going to leave a ton of content out and it will not be the same game anyway.
To be fair, they haven't said anything about leaving content out, just about adding new content. I mean, they probably are going to leave some things out (especially combat-related), but it's silly to guess what or how much.

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #26 on: 2015-06-26 16:43:50 »
To be fair, they haven't said anything about leaving content out, just about adding new content. I mean, they probably are going to leave some things out (especially combat-related), but it's silly to guess what or how much.

There was someone in IRC who had read more.  But the interviews already have stated content is being dropped, even that "leak" guy has mentioned it.  But at the very least, it is not going to be the same game.  ATB and so on are not going to survive and that's among many things that fans actually want in a remake.  The remake will have nice graphics but it's not a replacement, so this project is still relevant imho.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-26 16:46:25 by DLPB »

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #27 on: 2015-06-26 18:09:31 »
It's rather a combination of the project's feasibility, and where it would fit in the end.
I had enough time for contemplating that the project's chances of success were very slim: as I said, it would have required a very tough schedule for 10 productive artists for 5-6 years in the best case. With the current crew, the team is closer to 3 people producing on average 5 scenes per year, so we would have needed some serious "snowball" effect to have any hope of getting somewhere. We would have needed to gather a lot of interest to incite people to join the team.
At the end of it, if the only purpose of the project was an upscale of the graphics, the project would end up being redundant with Omzy's and yarLson's, not to mention the possibility for new image filtering techniques to emerge. What stimulated me was the possibility to go beyond that and alter the original to bring improvements. I was feeling that it was up to me and the team to eventually get some kind of "remake", and to be honest I've been feeling constrained in my creative process by many technical limitations (although, I was still ok with that framework). With Square going at it pretty much "without limitations", they can transcend the original much better than I. If the project were to continue, I feel it would fall into some kind of "mucky middle", halfway between a conservative vision (sticking to the original, where Omzy's and yarLson's find their purpose) and an evolving vision (Square's remake). It's too much work for something having so little purpose. If there were good odds of being able to complete it before Square's remake, I would have given it a shot, but that's not going to happen.
There was someone in IRC who had read more.  But the interviews already have stated content is being dropped, even that "leak" guy has mentioned it.  But at the very least, it is not going to be the same game.  ATB and so on are not going to survive and that's among many things that fans actually want in a remake.  The remake will have nice graphics but it's not a replacement, so this project is still relevant imho.
In the end, what you would have liked is a HD remaster (like what Square did for FFX), not a remake. I am personally a lot more interested in a remake than a remaster (even if I had the choice, as a creator). Maybe because I've always been particularly interested in the process: "take a concept/idea, analyze it, and transform it to make it better". Square may not do it like I would, but I'm totally cool with that.

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #28 on: 2015-06-26 21:47:15 »
Well, I wanted both... I wanted it to fix what needed fixing, rather than alter story, remove content, and remove systems...  that to me isn't even a remake.  If it is, it's a lazy one.

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #29 on: 2015-06-26 22:32:08 »
Well, I wanted both... I wanted it to fix what needed fixing, rather than alter story, remove content, and remove systems...  that to me isn't even a remake.  If it is, it's a lazy one.
Right now, I do not think it is fair to say that, on many counts. I would prefer to discuss the changes brought by the remake once we know more about them, and even then, we're likely to disagree on their merits/flaws (since I would prefer the ATB to be replaced, and certainly not by a turn-based system).
« Last Edit: 2015-06-26 22:36:11 by Mayo Master »

StickySock

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #30 on: 2015-06-27 18:01:02 »
Square may well have resources, but they're not going to recreate the original game - they're going to leave a ton of content out and it will not be the same game anyway.  The remake isn't a reason I'd personally have to quit but that's up to each person.

If this remake was sticking to the original and updating as necessary (which it should be doing but is not) then I'd agree this project is redundant.
DLPB and I have the same view on what the original will be even though we differing levels of excitement for it.

The fact is, the remake is going to be drastically different from the original, and those that want the original with some TLC and few changes will still desire a mod such as Team Avalanche. In an ideal world, we could have both this mod to keep the game faithful to the original, and the remake to get the modernized take on it.

There is a very real possibility the remake is going to be completely crap like many of the posters here believe, and if that happens we will all come crawling back to beg modders to keep working on the original.

cmh175

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #31 on: 2015-06-27 22:10:19 »
Something that's being overlooked though is as Maya briefly mentioned this is a massive project, and at the moment TA is way too under staffed to reasonably complete this. It seems more like the main goal so far as been completing backgrounds in an attempt to attract more help, which hasn't gone well and is even more unlikely now with the remake happening. Personally I'd say with the final version of the Reunion and Kaldarasha's models coming the game's pretty much complete. Many of the upscaled backgrounds are really good and with a combination of them you can piece together a pack of really clear backgrounds. Paired with Kaldarasha's models everything looks pretty good together.

Otherwise down the line even if the new game tanks, maybe it'll be moddable on PC. I could definitely see us ripping models and backgrounds from it to import for the original too lol.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-27 22:11:50 by cmh175 »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #32 on: 2015-06-27 22:50:01 »
Well I always had intentions to try and promote these scenes across other social medias. I haven't been very swift in getting my projects done either, so I know the feeling of being "unstaffed." I was hoping what promotion could be done would bring in some help because I have seen new faces show up here over the past year that have been capable of modding this game very well. It all takes time, effort, and patience.

anaho

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #33 on: 2015-06-28 20:35:45 »
I am very excited about the annoucement. I like doing 3D so there are no feelings of my side that my work was or is in vain. Quite the contrary I learned a lot.

The Berserker

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #34 on: 2015-06-29 12:42:53 »
well that's a shame i was really looking forward for the midgar overhaul at least :(

anaho

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #35 on: 2015-06-29 20:44:26 »
I still have a lot unfinished scenes on my harddrive that I will finish. If I ever lose interest I will upload them so anyone can play with them.
Funny thing: The amount of scenes that are finished or started could have easily sufficed for the Bombing Mission. The problem for me always was that Spoox at least has had blockouts for a lot of the scenes and it is not known what has happened to them. So from my point of view we were not that understaffed ( of course we could need programmers and the more artists the merrier) but a little unorganized.

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #36 on: 2015-06-30 15:40:00 »
If you feel we were unorganized, I'm accountable for that since I had taken the lead of the project. I managed TA with the following principles:
- My chief concern was how few we were, and that each artist could produce a scene in about 1.5 month minimum, and that the whole project demanded more than 500 scenes to be re-created. Since we were stretched so thin, what I wanted to avoid above all was redundancy. Thus, I tried to manage the project so that each person would work on really separate places. One of the problems regarding Midgar scenes was that some artists never made it quite clear what the extent of their contributions would be like (and I'm not talking about SpooX), and I was always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than discounting them out right (again, because of our overall productivity issues).
- I had to account for the fact that various artist may very well have different creative profiles. To generalize: on the one hand there are three steps regarding the production of a work: getting the work started, developing a started work, and being able to wrap up and finish the work. Creative people are generally good at one of these three things, seldom at the three things at once. On the other hand, when facing a multitude of tasks, some people prefer to work sequentially (getting each job one after the other, and seeing each job through one by one), some others prefer to branch out (starting numerous jobs, and keep juggling between jobs). People preferring the "branching out" option are rather uncomfortable with a sequential approach, because keeping at a single task gets them bored and make it seem like a chore. So I think it is best to leave the people work with the approach they're the most comfortable with. I had the feeling that you could classify SpooX (he'd confirm himself, maybe  ;)  ) as someone who excels at starting tasks, and prefers to branch out.
- I had to be aware that, for contributors, many Real Life aspects had to take precedence over Team Avalanche. Be it job responsibilities, taking care of family/friends, recovering from an accident, all this is more important than Team Avalanche. It would be pointless to ask of someone else not to have a balanced lifestyle for the sake of the project. I've experimented upon myself last year since I had occasionally crossed the line between "hobby you're passionate about" and "chore you want to get over with", and even if you want to remain serious and passionate about this, Team Avalanche has to remain a hobby. This was in my opinion the only line to follow, because you can't have the drive for such project if you lose the "fun" aspect of it. That's why, after evaluating that, I was estimating the maximum productivity from an artist to be around 10 scenes per year, and more realistic expectations would even be below that.

I hope you can better appreciate the inherent limitations of undertaking a massive project when calling on the efforts of a loose group of amateurs.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-30 16:06:05 by Mayo Master »

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #37 on: 2015-06-30 16:23:59 »
Right now, I do not think it is fair to say that, on many counts. I would prefer to discuss the changes brought by the remake once we know more about them, and even then, we're likely to disagree on their merits/flaws (since I would prefer the ATB to be replaced, and certainly not by a turn-based system).

Since this is supposed to be a remake, I'm not sure how you feel removing a core component of the original game is okay.   That is not a remake, it's a complete change and re-imagining.  I am willing to bet that the vast majority of the fans of the original game WANT the ATB system in place, along with every other core component.  Because it was those things that made them like FF7 in the first place.  Why bother with a remake if the plan is to just do away with what made them a classic in the first place?  This point seems to be utterly lost on too many people, yourself included.  It isn't logical.  The whole purpose of this remake was supposedly to listen to fans who wanted to play the game again with better graphics - that's precisely what most people found to be the #1 reason for a remake.  It wasn't because they didn't like the ATB system.  I have literally never once heard an argument for a remake that went along the lines of "ATB system needs replacing" - it was always to upgrade the lego graphics and crap translation.

So basically, by changing a core component, you just alienate the majority of the very people the remake was appeasing.  Not very smart.  Not at all logical.  But, from Senix's pov, financially sound - because it will appeal to more people outside of the fanbase which, as I have said a few times, is the real reason the remake is in production. 

I am not saying ATB was perfect and I certainly know that the implementation of the battle system was mediocre, but those are the things that needed fixing.  I don't find any joy at all in gambits or AI characters.  I like to use my brain - and modern games are brainless and aimed at the brainless and make everyone else brainless.  I watched an FF15 trailer/demo more recently... and all it was to me was a huge pile of chaos with no tactics and little real input from the player's side.  That's not what games are meant to be about. 

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihlaR7ubfOg

I mean just look at that.  It's just a chaotic mish mash of slashes -  It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.  If that's what gaming has come to then the industry might as well call it a day.
« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 16:42:56 by DLPB »

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #38 on: 2015-06-30 18:03:56 »
So... you wish me to explain why I would have the dumb idea of willing to change the ATB system? Okay.

Personally, when I play a RPG, I play it primarily because I'm interested in the discovery of a fantasy world, epic adventures, and relationship between characters, and how the video game medium has a particular way to get the player immersed and involved in all this. When I play a RPG, I do not feel attached to specific combat mechanics. Regarding combat mechanics, what matters to me is that they're entertaining, have a certain element of strategy, and be coherent with the story/universe. If combat mechanics follow "Scheme X" instead of "Pattern Y", I don't really care. Now, I've never said that I didn't like ATB: actually I found that ATB was interesting and entertaining when I was playing the game back then. However I tend to prefer more dynamic systems, something that has a little more punch to it. Now, saying that an "action" orientation of the gameplay would be necessarily brainless, especially in comparison of earlier games, is in my opinion invalid: first because having to take fast decisions isn't necessarily detrimental, and second because earlier games did not necessarily require a much more clever approach (many old turn-based RPGs proposed combats which would be solved by "Attack">"Attack">"Attack" more than 90% of the time).
I will even make another case: when I recently played Dragon Age Inquisition, the game offers you the possibility to either play it like an action RPG, or to pause anytime for instructing your characters to take a specific course of action (which kind of breaks it down to a turn-based approach). If you play in higher difficulty setting (which I did), you have to plan your actions a lot more carefully, so you tend to take combat with a more "turn-based" approach, whereas you can keep the pace of an action game if the difficulty level is more forgiving. While I certainly had the impression that a higher difficulty mode made the game more "strategic", I was not at all convinced that it made the game more entertaining. And please, I am not saying that because "I don't like to think, it makes my head hurt"  ::)
Personally I would like the ATB system to be replaced because I desire a renewed, refreshed experience. There are other ways to make a game work, and I'm open to a variety of ideas. I do not hold a specific vision which should be adhered to dogmatically.

Kaldarasha

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #39 on: 2015-06-30 18:37:14 »
For me does FFX have the most stupid system. You spend a lot time in leveling skills and in the end all enemies are immune to the most of them and all what's left is to deal much damage and try to get as much turns as possible.
I think that DQ8 has the best battle system I have ever played because it is simple designed and every skill is more or less useful in end.

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #40 on: 2015-06-30 21:05:35 »
I think that DQ8 has the best battle system I have ever played because it is simple designed and every skill is more or less useful in end.
Noooooooooooooooo! Not DQ8  :evil:!
Well, I would agree that DQ8 is the embodiment of extremely traditional turn-based mechanics. As you can suspect, this combat system was not really to my liking (which did not prevent me from enjoying the game as a whole, though), in part because it made me feel like I was still playing with the same mechanics I've played with back in the days of the Genesis (1991!).
Personally, I prefer when a combat gameplay feels seamless, follows a dynamic flow of actions and stimulates quick reaction/anticipation. I think I do not like most turn-based systems mostly because of their repetitive "stop & go" pacing, and because they do not tend to offer much originality.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-30 21:09:01 by Mayo Master »

anaho

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #41 on: 2015-06-30 22:04:14 »
I just want to say that I did not mean it a negative way. I just wonder why this announcement has just an impact on your modding activities? Did you not enjoy it? For me it has a lot of benefits: I can take a look as to what the industries┬┤ best decided a Mako reactor should look like in 2015 and backport that to the old game. I can also compare my results in a more appropriate way.
And I am very excited about the game as well even though I personally have disliked pretty much everything that came after FFIX.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-30 22:05:57 by anaho »

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #42 on: 2015-07-01 08:46:11 »
For me does FFX have the most stupid system. You spend a lot time in leveling skills and in the end all enemies are immune to the most of them and all what's left is to deal much damage and try to get as much turns as possible.
I think that DQ8 has the best battle system I have ever played because it is simple designed and every skill is more or less useful in end.

I thought FFX's system was really well made.  It was again the implementation of it that failed for the reason you mentioned- same as FF7.  It was still a very decent system overall and unlike modern games, you got more control of your characters (even the Summons) not less.  It was far more fun and intelligent than FF12 imho (and for that matter I liked it better than FF8,9,12 and perhaps even FF7 as well because it's implementation, with one or two exceptions, was better).
« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 15:37:09 by DLPB »

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #43 on: 2015-07-01 17:20:20 »
It was still a very decent system overall and unlike modern games, you got more control of your characters (even the Summons) not less.  It was far more fun and intelligent than FF12 imho
I've never quite understood that particular criticism of FF XII (the notion that "the game plays itself" or "players do not have control on the party's actions"). First because the game always gives you the choice of disabling gambits and having the player make every single input, and second because even with Gambits on, the player's choices were always taking over Gambit action. In the end, the amount of input/control could be configured to a great extent (it could even be played like good old ATB if the player wished to), and I'm not sure how that makes this system "less intelligent" than that of earlier FFs.

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #44 on: 2015-07-01 17:40:35 »
I survived the vast majority of FF12 with 2 gambits "cure" and "attack" (based on some %), so it's a fact that it can virtually play itself. I watched it happen.  AI characters is lazy design and contrary to what a game is.  The idea of "programming" actions is the exact part the programmer should be doing - not the player.

That's where the criticism comes from.  And add to that the melee of numbers and crazy goings on in realtime that results in tactics and choice going out of the window.

I did not pay 50 quid to watch a bunch of preprogrammed scripts flailing about all over the place while I sit there with 2 hands free.  It's bad when a system is not implemented properly (mostly FF7 when discussing FF7-12), but it's FAR worse when the system itself is utter garbage.  I guarantee you that FF7-10 battle system took MUCH longer to program and test than FF12's.  It's lazy.

Also:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=14179.msg198182;topicseen#msg198182

The vote was actually 17-1.
« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 21:51:53 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #45 on: 2015-07-02 10:51:45 »
I survived the vast majority of FF12 with 2 gambits "cure" and "attack" (based on some %), so it's a fact that it can virtually play itself. I watched it happen.  AI characters is lazy design and contrary to what a game is.  The idea of "programming" actions is the exact part the programmer should be doing - not the player.

That's where the criticism comes from.  And add to that the melee of numbers and crazy goings on in realtime that results in tactics and choice going out of the window.

I did not pay 50 quid to watch a bunch of preprogrammed scripts flailing about all over the place while I sit there with 2 hands free.  It's bad when a system is not implemented properly (mostly FF7 when discussing FF7-12), but it's FAR worse when the system itself is utter garbage.  I guarantee you that FF7-10 battle system took MUCH longer to program and test than FF12's.  It's lazy.

Also:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=14179.msg198182;topicseen#msg198182

The vote was actually 17-1.

I often have the problem that the AI scripts in the D&D games are often not what I needed. FFXII has done with the gambits a real good thing (it was that good that the  team of Dragon Age Origin has mimicked it), but honestly you have to like the western RPG battle system.
I agree that it seems to be degenerated to a 'Watch the fight' but most of the strategy part is outsourced to the battle planning - which FFX doesn't really had (however I did like to spend my time on the sphere board).
It is also important how you play out the role of a character. With a simple Attack-and-Heal system (which is basically the only thing you need to do in FF7 to win 98% of the fights) you won't win anything. Even the accessories Nihopalaoa is bringing a new strategy into the game.
Quote
the reason for wearing this item is it reverses restorative item effects used by/on that character. sounds nasty ehh? why would i want to hurt myself with a potion? ahhh, but.. by using a Remedy on an enemy, it works the same way as Bad/Putrid Breath from Morlboro type enemies. IE: equip the Nihopalaoa on whomever you wish to use it on, select a remedy to use, then Select an enemy and use it on THEM. it will inflict: Poison, Immobalize, Disable, Sap, Oil, Blind, Etc. on THEM!!! Great trick to use on those nasty mobs that are giving you trouble. be warned tho, some mobs are immune to some status effects, and this can be an expensive habbit once learned. But, the effects of this trick are wonderful if used correctly.
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/4605/t798029-this-nihopalaoa-trick/

Also you are not forced by the game to use the Gambits. You can still pause and switch to the character and do all this by hand which a gambit would do in a seconed. :evil:

With all the games I have played from SE I can tell that they are always creating excellent systems which do their job. After all in a JRPG is the story more important as the battles. Sadly, if they put more importance to the battle they like to over do it with the enemy stats rather than invent a new dynamic tactic to beat the enemy.
FFXIII has done in that part actually a good job. I don't quite understand why people say that it was easy. Of course you haven't to deal with things you would usually, but do you must decide about the tactic the whole time. It is in some way like Tetris where a bad decision can have a radical impact to your party and how the battle evolves. It's actually a great concept but the story was lame so every one didn't like the rest too. :|

By the way the most epic JRPG Final Boss fight I did ever have was in Breath of Fire IV. I think that I did needed around two hours on him.

Oh, and do you really think FFXIII has a good battle system? You can beat the game on Level 1 and most of the good spells are never used because you need them to upgrade your stats. Which lets me revise my statement of FFX's battle system and puts it on the second place.

LeonhartGR

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #46 on: 2015-07-04 05:45:09 »
Ok guys! So you can finally focus on a FFVIII overhaul afterall!? :) :)

sen

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #47 on: 2015-07-04 19:52:28 »
Ok guys! So you can finally focus on a FFVIII overhaul afterall!? :) :)
From future: The TA work on FFVIII nearly done then Square announces FFVIII remake. TA Project dropped.

Fischkopf

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #48 on: 2015-08-03 22:12:13 »
Ok guys! So you can finally focus on a FFVIII overhaul afterall!? :) :)

I think people should just proceed enhancing FF VII, as previously done.

Because I'm afraid FF VII Remake is not going to be the game we're hoping for. Square Enix already stated they're gonna scrap the turned based battle system... :(

I don't even want to know about the world map, because I highly doubt they're going to make the same world map, with random battles using their fancy new graphics engine. They're gonna do something different for sure, and I don't welcome that change.

Salk

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #49 on: 2015-08-04 03:37:41 »
I completely agree with Fischkopf.

It's unlikely the remake is going to be as good as the original. The TA work would still be very precious.