Author Topic: Speed Runs Make Me Cry  (Read 7783 times)

xLostWingx

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Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« on: 2012-05-20 23:53:03 »
I happened across some speed runs for FFs and non-FFs and I can only think that people who hate the game engage in such blasphemous endeavors.  Speed runs essentially spit in the face of every aspect of what makes any game fun to play.  If I play VII, why...why would I ever want to use the same strategy for every battle, especially when it involves using a freaking item over and over again.  If I play Mario 64, why would I want to glitch through walls to play levels that aren't fun while skipping levels that are fun.

I know some people enjoy the challenge, and have fun doing speed runs...but they really make me want to vomit.  That is all.

obesebear

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #1 on: 2012-05-20 23:58:24 »
I check speed demos archive a few times a month to see the newest happenings.


I've watched:
Ninja Gaiden
Super Metroid
Metroid Prime
Zelda Ocarina of Time
Megaman X


Among countless other Tool Assisted Speedruns just to see the amazing things that can be done when the game is slowed down and save states are used

xLostWingx

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #2 on: 2012-05-21 02:53:37 »
I can agree that the things that can be done are amazing.

Tekkie.X

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #3 on: 2012-05-21 05:18:03 »
Tool assisted is cheating really, takes the fun out of it, because it's all done with scripts and game saves.

luksy

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #4 on: 2012-05-21 05:26:29 »
Well it's cheating if they try and pass it off as the real thing, but I don't have a problem with TAS if they make it clear. I enjoy watching speedruns for certain games, it's fascinating to see the kind of bugs they can exploit.

DLPB_

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #5 on: 2012-05-21 06:09:49 »
I find it fascinating to see the machine like precision that is possible when a human is able to remove his own flaws...

But at same time, I agree with OP, that these things kill imagination.  I am not sure why anyone would spend so much time on something like that. I play games because it is fun to play them and know you can lose... and know that you arent perfect but that you can attain a high level with practice.

Covarr

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #6 on: 2012-05-21 06:41:18 »
Tool assisted runs have a challenge entirely their own: to play every game as a strategy game, and to achieve a better time than other TAS's of the same game. Sure, it's not really much of an accomplishment when someone beats the live best time through savestates and rerecords, but when you're up against people with the exact same tools at their disposal, even a minor (~2 frames) advantage can be tough to gain.

One thing I've seen said in the Smash Bros. hacking and MUGEN communities is that if everybody is overpowered, nobody is. I think that sums up tool assisted speedruns pretty well; they're essentially competing in a different league with different rules, but so are the people they're competing against. It's pretty rare for TAS's to be passed off as real speedruns.

LeonhartGR

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #7 on: 2012-05-21 14:19:54 »
TAS is for educative and computer science challenging purposes mostly. I enjoy watching any retro games though.

dkma841

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #8 on: 2012-05-21 16:00:16 »
Not to mention most speed runs are made just to show off your skills it's not as easy as it looks especially when your competing with thousands of people to get the best time possible

xLostWingx

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #9 on: 2012-05-21 17:08:50 »
I guess doing things very quickly, or faster than Bob and Joe just isn't very fun for me.  I'd rather someone hand everyone here the same 10 materia and have a competition to see who can produce the most damage in a single turn or in 3 minutes or something.  As far a challenges go, I've always tried to handicap myself in a variety of ways without completely eliminating whole categories of options.  I've tried playing No Items No Magic Materia etc. playthroughs and they just bore the hell out of me.  OK, stick Cloud in the back row with Sadness and alternate defending with Limit Breaks....ok now do that 100 more times until the end of the game, Awesome!  How about just don't equip the best everything and don't spend hours training?

Don't get me wrong, if I'm playing NFS then yeah...I'm going to try and get the fastest time I can - because it is part of what makes a racing game fun.  But fast forwarding through an RPG is like saying "I'm gonna smoke some crack and see how fast I can go to sleep!"  or "I'm gonna go swimming and see if I can avoid getting wet!" 

Covarr

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #10 on: 2012-05-21 18:01:53 »
Well yeah, RPG speedruns are typically pretty boring. They can get somewhat exciting if the speedrunner discovers a new strategy or exploit that works particularly well, but in general they're not very fun either to make or to watch. You'll also notice that Speed Demos Archive has very few RPGs for this very reason.

On the other hand, platformers lend themselves very well to speedrunning. The primary challenges are typically in route planning and careful execution. For example, in a classic Sonic game speedrun, a lot of thought goes into deciding whether to take the upper or lower route in each level, or even to switch between them where it's worth more time. The speedrunner must take into account the length of the path, the number of obstacles and enemies, how easy those obstacles/enemies are to avoid, whether it's faster to just take damage rather than avoiding, what TYPE of obstacles there are, and much, much more.

After what often amounts to weeks of planning and prep work, as well as possibly dozens or more of test runs, the actual speedrun attempt(s) require a tremendous amount of precision. A slightly mistimed jump can cause Sonic not to clear a ledge and ram headfirst into a wall. In a game so heavily focused on momentum, the time lost can be very significant and effectively blow the run. But even barring massive run changers like that, little things such timing your jumps so that the most ground time is spent rolling downhill, or bouncing off enemies at just the right angle to gain the most forward speed, can add up over time and make a huge difference.

For me at least, a large problem with RPG speed runs is that they are inherently slow-paced and quite repetitive. It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to spam the most effective attack against a boss, and there's not a whole lot of reflexes involved in walking across the world map as efficiently as possible. The real entertainment factor in watching a good speedrun is the sheer amount of skill it takes to pull it off. One of my favorite speedruns is this Sonic + Tails run of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Though a few parts of it do rely on glitch abuse, for the most part it's a showcase of sheer mastery of the game; this run moreso than most because of the stellar use of teamwork with the second player controlling Tails.

Most of all, what a great speedrun should do is capture the thrill and exhilaration of a high-speed race in a non-racing game. You're never going to find this in a turn-based RPG, because they're slow as molasses. Mario 64 is closer, but his top speed is a bit low, and speedruns of that game have largely been ruined by (as you said) wall glitches. But a warpless Super Mario Bros. 3 run, or damn near any Sonic Generations run, is just plain exciting to watch, and even more exciting to make if you've got the reflexes to pull it off.

xLostWingx

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #11 on: 2012-05-22 03:15:27 »
As always, very insightful.  Basically, speedruns just aren't my cup of tea.  For those that enjoy them, good for them.  I suppose the skills and planning involved is admirable.  I did keep tabs on Garland's speedrun, so I guess I'm not completely uninterested.  To each their own.

EDIT:  yeah that sonic run is impressive.  Good for them.
« Last Edit: 2012-05-22 03:20:06 by xLostWingx »

gjoerulv

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #12 on: 2012-05-22 08:28:37 »
It's the challenge that makes it fun I guess. A speedrun is a sort of testament that you've mastered something.
Not something I would thrill over, but I think some of them are fun to watch.
You could basically say the same thing in sports. Why do people strive to be as fast as possible?

Masamune666

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #13 on: 2012-05-30 21:13:53 »
The only speed runs that I could think of being any sort of relevance or challenge would have to be non rpg games from nes or snes.. examples were given above such as ninja gaiden an megaman.  The real challenge, would be to actually do it on the console and not an emulator with save states imho..

gjoerulv

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #14 on: 2012-05-31 00:23:07 »
The challenge in any case is to know how to do something fast. By challenge I don't necessarily mean what everyone would consider a decent challenge.

Livesey

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #15 on: 2012-05-31 22:39:02 »
I'm always amused by Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 TAS's

Also as people have mentioned already it takes an incredible amount of time, patience and planning in order to actually get a half decent speed run. I've tried and failed a few myself the fun for me comes from the challenge and it really is exhilarating when you realise how to shave off a second or two from a certain path or route, it really is a lot harder than they make it look... with some exceptions of course.

BloodShot

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Re: Speed Runs Make Me Cry
« Reply #16 on: 2012-06-01 04:30:41 »
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Quake in a speedrun thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpiNDxssUL0&feature=topics

I think speedruns are okay for FPS games because usually the people who are doing them love the games and have pretty much exhausted everything there is to know about the game already.