Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 3008306 times)

LordUrQuan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4700 on: 2019-06-27 00:34:12 »
I feel like this one line in the Beacause translation right at the beginning is really awkward and stilted: "It's hard to believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!". The rest of the text is really good and improved from the original but this one immediately stuck out to me. I'd change it to "Hard to believe one of theirs joined a group like Avalanche."
That line has caused me so many problems.  I've rewritten it 100 times.  It's been changed more than any other line and I agree it still sounds crap.  The problem with your suggestion is it's too vague (the opening has to get clear concise info across to people who've never played the game before).  The opening dialogue is crap even in Japanese because it's giving you a ton of exposition in only a few lines.

It's impossible to make this dialogue sound truly natural, but I'm not giving up on it just yet.

I'm not really in the business of taking feedback on dialogue though - esp from R05c... or I'll never get my life back.  But you are right on this. I'm aware of it.
Would "I can't believe a SOLDIER defected to a group like AVALANCHE" work?  I have no clue what the original Japanese was (not that I could understand it if I did), but I think it's short enough to fit in the box, and using "defected" instead of "joined" carries a much more ominous connotation than just "Eh, I woke up one morning and thought it might be kinda fun to play for the other team instead."

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4701 on: 2019-06-27 00:39:34 »
No, because then you have

"You're from Soldier"
"I can't believe a Soldier"
 and then Jessie's "Soldier are the enemy"

Which also looks ridiculous.  Three Soldier uses in 3 successive dialogues.

He also can't say defected... because Jessie's next dialogue shows she's confused that a Soldier is in Avalanche and he explains that Cloud is ex Soldier. That's the whole reason the Japanese doesn't use it.

The dialogue here has to work with all the others and not cause a plot issue.


I think this is about as good as it gets

#xy 8 8
Biggs
“Wow…
  You’re from Soldier,all right.”{NEW}
“I still can’t believe that one
  of theirs has joined a group
  like Avalanche!”
--------------------------------------------------
#xy 137 6
Jessie
“But Soldier are the enemy!”
--------------------------------------------------
#xy 143 6
Jessie
“What’s he doing with us!?”
--------------------------------------------------
#xy 8 8
Biggs
“No,no,Jessie…
  He’s not in Soldier anymore—
  he quit Shin-Ra.”

1. Cloud was a member of a group called Soldier
2. He isn't in Soldier anymore.
3. He's joined this group called Avalanche
4. Soldier are affiliated with Shin-Ra somehow
5. Avalanche see Soldier as the enemy.
6. It's unheard of for a Soldier to defect to a group like Avalanche.

That's 6 exposition pieces in a few lines.  And that's where all the problems arise.  Too much exposition in such a very short scene.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-27 12:42:05 by DLPB »

Kilo

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4702 on: 2019-06-27 00:41:10 »
You're welcome.

---
Wow!  You're from Soldier all right.

It's hard to believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!
Who would believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!? 
No-one would believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!
I still can't believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!
I can't believe that one of theirs has joined a group like Avalanche!

Maybe the fourth or fifth one sounds most natural? I honestly can't think of anything better here.
I'd think abbreviating "has" in either of the last two to " 's" would work if you don't wanna cut that word out of the text altogether.
I can't believe one of theirs's joined a group like Avalanche!"

Melancholy

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4703 on: 2019-06-27 01:02:55 »
I came up with a dozen suggestions, only to eventually come to the realization that none of them would work in the context you put forward. I guess the only suggestion is maybe drop the word 'that' to make it sound a little more natural. And definitely don't use option 2 or 3, 4 is probably the best.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4704 on: 2019-06-27 01:04:54 »
I've gone with four. 

I'm not sure removing that makes it better... it feels wrong.  But either would work.
But the more I think about it the more it sounds better without it.  I dunno...  this happens a lot.  :-D

cold_spirit

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4705 on: 2019-06-27 01:22:40 »
I think dropping the "that" and "has" sounds the most natural.

“I still can’t believe one
  of theirs joined a group
  like Avalanche!”

Just me though.

Melancholy

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4706 on: 2019-06-27 01:26:52 »
I think dropping the "that" and "has" sounds the most natural.

“I still can’t believe one
  of theirs joined a group
  like Avalanche!”

Just me though.
I would leave 'has' because without it, it sounds like something that happened in the distant past. I do agree it sounds a little unnatural, but I feel it sounds a bit clearer for the exposition.

LordUrQuan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4707 on: 2019-06-27 01:30:58 »
I've gone with four. 

I'm not sure removing that makes it better... it feels wrong.  But either would work.
But the more I think about it the more it sounds better without it.  I dunno...  this happens a lot.  :-D
Maybe the issue of including "that" is a question of British vs. American English?  It definitely sounds more natural to us Yanks without the that.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4708 on: 2019-06-27 01:43:10 »
Nah, I think this is a me thing.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4709 on: 2019-06-27 01:44:14 »
I would leave 'has' because without it, it sounds like something that happened in the distant past. I do agree it sounds a little unnatural, but I feel it sounds a bit clearer for the exposition.

That's precisely it.  There can be no compromise on clarity at this point in the game.  The "has" HAS to stay.  It has to be made clear that he has joined now.

Kilo

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4710 on: 2019-06-27 01:46:08 »
There is a compromise: changed "has" to an apostrophe S

Melancholy

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4711 on: 2019-06-27 01:57:26 »
That's precisely it.  There can be no compromise on clarity at this point in the game.  The "has" HAS to stay.  It has to be made clear that he has joined now.
I guess that's your answer then. Remove the 'that' in the sentence, leave everything else alone and consider that section done for good.

LordUrQuan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4712 on: 2019-06-27 02:01:29 »
I guess that's your answer then. Remove the 'that' in the sentence, leave everything else alone and consider that section done for good.
Hehehe... and if you have another itching that it's bothering you, drown it in a pint of Guinness, then spam the Discord ;)

obesebear

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4713 on: 2019-06-27 02:11:17 »
"But Soldier are the enemy" can't be right. Where's covarr

LordUrQuan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4714 on: 2019-06-27 02:20:20 »
"But Soldier are the enemy" can't be right. Where's covarr
It's correct in the same manner that saying "The data are...." is correct.  An individual member of SOLDIER *is* the enemy, but as an organization, SOLDIER *are* the enemy.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4715 on: 2019-06-27 02:30:20 »
This is probably the American thing again where they generally tend to use "is" for both organization and members.  British allows "is" for the organization and "are" when referring to the members. And even that's probably not universal...  you'll likely find it differs by location. 

Covarr has already looked over the entire text, so unless he's missed it, it's fine. If not, it will just go on the American option.

Microsoft is planning to
Microsoft are planning to

The former is the organization
The latter refers to its members

Not sure this latest text is the same thing really.
« Last Edit: 2019-06-27 02:34:29 by DLPB »

LordUrQuan

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4716 on: 2019-06-27 03:05:11 »
This is probably the American thing again where they generally tend to use "is" for both organization and members.  British allows "is" for the organization and "are" when referring to the members. And even that's probably not universal...  you'll likely find it differs by location.
Could be... kinda makes you wonder how the two keep getting reversed like that.  Then there's the whole 'u' thing in words like colo(u)r, or 'er' versus 're' (center/centre).

Maybe the Aussies were on to something when they went and hacked the whole thing to pieces, just so they could get words like crikey :D

Hyperthesis

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4717 on: 2019-06-27 05:15:39 »
I reported this already, but perhaps not in the right place? Anyhoo, I was watching a longplay of your mod (R05C I believe) and feel one of Cloud's lines on the Highwind following his "moment" with Tifa needs a minor revision:

Tifa:
"This airship is way too big for just the two of us."
"It feels so lonely without the others."

Cloud:
"Don't worry, it'll be okay."
"I'll make a big enough noise for everyone."

In the original translation he says he'll "make a big enough ruckus for everyone." Even if "noise" is more accurate, "making…a ruckus" (or "raising…a ruckus") is an actual idiom, whereas "making…a noise," though grammatically correct, is just awkward phrasing given the context. Cloud is talking about making the Highwind appear more lively than it really is, so revising his line to something more like "I'll make enough noise for everyone," would better communicate that.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4718 on: 2019-06-27 09:19:31 »
There is a compromise: changed "has" to an apostrophe S

Because "theirs's" is not a real word. There's your answer.

Now don't use the report button to try and get attention to your posts. It's not meant for that.

Kuraudo.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4719 on: 2019-06-27 09:43:24 »
I reported this already, but perhaps not in the right place? Anyhoo, I was watching a longplay of your mod (R05C I believe) and feel one of Cloud's lines on the Highwind following his "moment" with Tifa needs a minor revision:

Tifa:
"This airship is way too big for just the two of us."
"It feels so lonely without the others."

Cloud:
"Don't worry, it'll be okay."
"I'll make a big enough noise for everyone."

In the original translation he says he'll "make a big enough ruckus for everyone." Even if "noise" is more accurate, "making…a ruckus" (or "raising…a ruckus") is an actual idiom, whereas "making…a noise," though grammatically correct, is just awkward phrasing given the context. Cloud is talking about making the Highwind appear more lively than it really is, so revising his line to something more like "I'll make enough noise for everyone," would better communicate that.
It's being discussed already a few pages back. However, you better wait for R06 since all the text is being already updated.

quote from DLPB: "I'm not really in the business of taking feedback on dialogue though - esp from R05c"

Matski

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4720 on: 2019-06-27 15:40:40 »
No, because then you have

"You're from Soldier"
"I can't believe a Soldier"
 and then Jessie's "Soldier are the enemy"

Which also looks ridiculous.  Three Soldier uses in 3 successive dialogues.
...
If the issue is repetition (I agree), how about a stand-in phrase like:

#xy 8 8
Biggs
“Wow…
  You’re from Soldier,all right.”{NEW}
“I still can’t believe that one
  of Shin-Ra's elite has joined
  a group like Avalanche!”

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4721 on: 2019-06-27 16:00:47 »
Can't do that.  It's cheating too far and then the later entry mentioning he quit Shin-Ra is redundant. The idea is you learn what Soldier are later in the game.  At this point, the mention of Shin-Ra and Soldier is to tease you into what their connection is. The lines above work well enough.  Yours would be better if I could cheat  ;)
« Last Edit: 2019-06-27 16:02:52 by DLPB »

Matski

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4722 on: 2019-06-27 17:12:44 »
It seems like it just needs an additional noun to make it work. Something like 'one of their ... recruits/members/veterans/officers' but more vague. 'One of their/your number/ilk/kind'. Hmm...
« Last Edit: 2019-06-27 17:16:12 by Matski »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4723 on: 2019-06-27 17:38:23 »
"One of their guys" could work. I'm def not using One of their boys.

There's still nothing wrong with the current.  It's a normal sentence.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R05c)
« Reply #4724 on: 2019-06-27 17:44:48 »
You see what you've done, Kilo ;)