Author Topic: [FF8-STEAM] Hardcore Boss, Greater Rewards Mod (Initial Ideas)  (Read 5637 times)

Mortael

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Hey gang! So I've decided to come back and work some more on FF8, this time making bosses more difficult, yet yielding greater rewards. I feel this will get some of you replaying the game again and hopefully finding it very difficult in the process :) I don't know about you, but I get really bored and tired of spamming my limit breaks all the time and beating bosses with 1 hit, whilst having 255 vit and str before I even leave Balamb in Disc 1! I am not only going to create a mod where this level of grinding is now NECESSARY, but I'm going to make the battles long and endearing. I've played this game hundreds of times, but I am still welcome to ideas and suggestions for certain bosses.

olearyf2525

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I would love a ff8 difficulty mod but..."I am not only going to create a mod where this level of grinding is now NECESSARY". I didn't think people found grinding out the entire game in the starter area fun? One of the main reasons I hated ff8 is because every time I start a new game I feel like I need to grind for draw spell but also for a ton of gf abilities so that I can easily beat the spider in dollet, all the grinding is front ended at the start and kinda makes the rest of the game trivial but makes starting a new game boring, when I was a kid I made a saved file right after all my grinding for gf abilities/drawing just so I could always start a new game from there and not have to redo a bajillion draws and boring battles.

Sega Chief

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Hey gang! So I've decided to come back and work some more on FF8, this time making bosses more difficult, yet yielding greater rewards. I feel this will get some of you replaying the game again and hopefully finding it very difficult in the process :) I don't know about you, but I get really bored and tired of spamming my limit breaks all the time and beating bosses with 1 hit, whilst having 255 vit and str before I even leave Balamb in Disc 1! I am not only going to create a mod where this level of grinding is now NECESSARY, but I'm going to make the battles long and endearing. I've played this game hundreds of times, but I am still welcome to ideas and suggestions for certain bosses.

The biggest problem with this game is the lack of structure in it's battle progression, and I think the problem that a mod should tackle first is the fact that you can leave Balamb Garden on Disc 1 with 255 Vit and Str. Before you spec the enemies, I'd try and sort out the Junction system (stat bonuses offered by spells), item-drops, and Card-Mod rewards first (Limits are also a big issue but a fix for them won't be easy due to the ). If you can create a framework of some kind that gates off powerful spells/stats/items until the later parts of the game, then you can also cut out the majority of the grinding that the vanilla game allows you to do and keep players moving forward.

I would love a ff8 difficulty mod but..."I am not only going to create a mod where this level of grinding is now NECESSARY". I didn't think people found grinding out the entire game in the starter area fun? One of the main reasons I hated ff8 is because every time I start a new game I feel like I need to grind for draw spell but also for a ton of gf abilities so that I can easily beat the spider in dollet, all the grinding is front ended at the start and kinda makes the rest of the game trivial but makes starting a new game boring, when I was a kid I made a saved file right after all my grinding for gf abilities/drawing just so I could always start a new game from there and not have to redo a bajillion draws and boring battles.

This sums up what you need to fix for an FF8 mod to bring players back to it. While it isn't necessary to really grind at all in FF8 due to the way levels work, a lot of players probably did what myself and Oleary did way back when and got drawn into the high-yield grinds that the game offers early on. Problem is, a grind is still a grind and it should never be part of a game by design because it can very quickly kill a player's momentum; in my FF7 mod, I made the mistake of setting up Disc 3 to be a high-yield grind area to handle end-game extra bosses but what I should have done was pace the game in such a way that players arrived at Disc 3 with the party-strength needed to just jump in right away and tackle those fights with a reasonable chance of winning (with the content leading up to that point set to a steady arc that reaches this point naturally).

The only place grinding should have is providing a player with a small leg-up to advance if they're having trouble with a particularly problematic boss; it should never be necessary or allow a player to break the remainder of the game.
« Last Edit: 2016-01-01 19:00:57 by Sega Chief »

Kefka

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I can only agree with everything Olearyf2525 and Sega Chief have said. Mandatory grinding can never be the solution to a game's lack of difficulty. Rather, you should try to tackle the root of the problem, which is the major imbalance of the junction system itself. Stat boosts from magic should at least be cut in half (probably even more) so that the player isn't allowed to become super-powerful at the very beginning. As somewhat of a compensation, natural stat growth should be higher, this way spending hours upon hours drawing certain magic and/or playing cards for refining magic won't be a necessity. If I were to go for a FF8 difficulty mod, fixing the ratio of junction stat boost vs natural stat growth would be the first thing I'd do.

Unfortunately, we currently have no way of modifying junction boosts, that's the only reason why I never even bothered for a difficulty mod, seeing as in FF8's case, simply boosting enemy strength wouldn't be enough. Not with the (in my opinion) completely broken junction system.

The second major problem stems from the fact that a lot of the game's more powerful spells become available way too soon. You can refine Curaga, Tornado, Quake and others from cards and various items on disc 1 already, and that simply shouldn't be possible. In most rpgs, there's a steady increase in power of the available spells which draws nearly through the enitre game. In FF7 for example (assuming you play without grinding and just moving through the game the normal way) you have nothing but Level 1 magic available until you reach Fort Condor/Junon. At least for me, this is usually the point where Level 2 magic starts to show up, and then it's again a long way before reaching Level 3 magic (for me usually on disc 2 somewhere at Gaia's Cliff/Northern Crate, which is about a little more than halfway through the game, considering that disc 1 is the longest and disc 3 is actually rather short). It's similar in FF9, where you aquire your first Level 2 magic near the end of disc 1 and Level 3 magic no sooner than mid-disc 3 (Gurgo Volcano).

Most rpgs follow the same setup (more or less), as it always has been considered a well-working and maybe even integral part of game design. Yet FF8 doesn't follow this seemingly basic rule at all, as it grants the player access to a wide range of high-level magic in pretty early stages of the game. If it were to follow the established rules of spell progressing, it would need to look something like this:

Level 2 magic becomes available at late disc 1, Level 3 magic including Quake and Tornado become available around late disc 2/early disc 3, and high-end magic like Ultima, Meteor, Full-Life and the like shouldn't be available until mid-to-late disc 3 (maybe after aquiring the Ragnarok).

An important change to achieve this would be to make card refinement not available until later stages of the game, and certainly not in Balamb already! Giving this ability to one of the beginning G.F.s can just be described in one way: bad game design.

Anyway, those are just the most important points that a difficulty mod should address before anything else, imo. Once a reasonable junction system and magic availability has been established, the fine-tuning of enemies can begin, but just boosting enemy strength without solving the major gameplay issues first would be rather pointless.
« Last Edit: 2016-01-02 08:10:12 by Kefka »

Mortael

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SO first things first, figuring out how to remove card mod from the game, if I can find the correct line of code via hex edit... And perhaps adding an item with a MUCH MUCH later boss that allows for card mod (or give it to Cactuar, that would perhaps make a lot more sense), possibly a boss in disc 3. I have already started modifying the attack patterns of bosses, Ifrit now uses Beserk instead of fire, he has more hitpoints, but his weakness to ice is increased. This is to encourage more magic-based tactics, as attacking him with physical attacks will not be enough. During the battle, I found it pretty tense, because if he beserks both of your characters, you're pretty much done for, as I've raised his strength so he inflicts around 250 damage with his special attack, so don't think you can beat him with limit breaks too easily ;) I've removed cure as a drawable spell, by this point you wouldn't be stupid enough to go in without cures, but I have however added Esuna. Unfortunately for the player, it will be unlikely that you'll be able to draw 100 of them without getting beserked and then killed, so you can perhaps draw a couple in moderation.

On an additional note, I am intending to have Diablos be insanely difficult to make it much more of a challenge to get Lionheart on Disc 1 Even to the point he'll always be level 100. (He's the devil) I am thinking of replacing gravija with Maelstrom, having Ultima instead of that stupid random Curaga he casts and instead of Demi, he would use meteor. (Or maybe some of other spell that isn't too OP, as this would make for one hell of a fight) Also... He'll be immune to blind ;)

Also... Changed the Fastitocalon-F AP to 1

I will be making certain changes to monsters with high AP drops, but to balance this out, I will be giving bosses much more AP gain, defeating Ifrit now yields 50AP, to help prevent hours of grinding, whilst keeping the game challenging, I'll try and play the game through the perspective of the average player, whilst making optional bosses (like Diablos) near impossible early game.
« Last Edit: 2016-01-02 10:37:27 by Mortael »

Kefka

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SO first things first, figuring out how to remove card mod from the game, if I can find the correct line of code via hex edit... And perhaps adding an item with a MUCH MUCH later boss that allows for card mod (or give it to Cactuar, that would perhaps make a lot more sense), possibly a boss in disc 3.

That's a big step in the right direction already, giving card mod to cactuar sounds like the best idea, imo.

I'll try and play the game through the perspective of the average player, whilst making optional bosses (like Diablos) near impossible early game.

Agreed again, this is (again imo) the most balanced approach that should attract many players. A somewhat challenging (yet not too frustrating) main story coupled with some very difficult optional bosses.  I was always of the opinion that optional bosses should be considerably tougher than the actual storyline stuff, because nobody has to fight them if they don't want to. If a player can't seem to beat a certain otional boss or doesn't want to spend too much time preparing for it, they can just skip it.

With regards to Diabolos, he should certainly be very difficult, but still be beatable even in the beginning, because you can learn the valuable steal-ability from him, and most bosses from then onward have some valuable items to steal that perfectionists might not wanna miss.

Anyway, good job for now, man!

olearyf2525

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SO first things first, figuring out how to remove card mod from the game, if I can find the correct line of code via hex edit... And perhaps adding an item with a MUCH MUCH later boss that allows for card mod (or give it to Cactuar, that would perhaps make a lot more sense), possibly a boss in disc 3. I have already started modifying the attack patterns of bosses, Ifrit now uses Beserk instead of fire, he has more hitpoints, but his weakness to ice is increased. This is to encourage more magic-based tactics, as attacking him with physical attacks will not be enough. During the battle, I found it pretty tense, because if he beserks both of your characters, you're pretty much done for, as I've raised his strength so he inflicts around 250 damage with his special attack, so don't think you can beat him with limit breaks too easily ;) I've removed cure as a drawable spell, by this point you wouldn't be stupid enough to go in without cures, but I have however added Esuna. Unfortunately for the player, it will be unlikely that you'll be able to draw 100 of them without getting beserked and then killed, so you can perhaps draw a couple in moderation.

On an additional note, I am intending to have Diablos be insanely difficult to make it much more of a challenge to get Lionheart on Disc 1 Even to the point he'll always be level 100. (He's the devil) I am thinking of replacing gravija with Maelstrom, having Ultima instead of that stupid random Curaga he casts and instead of Demi, he would use meteor. (Or maybe some of other spell that isn't too OP, as this would make for one hell of a fight) Also... He'll be immune to blind ;)

Also... Changed the Fastitocalon-F AP to 1

I will be making certain changes to monsters with high AP drops, but to balance this out, I will be giving bosses much more AP gain, defeating Ifrit now yields 50AP, to help prevent hours of grinding, whilst keeping the game challenging, I'll try and play the game through the perspective of the average player, whilst making optional bosses (like Diablos) near impossible early game.

This sounds pretty good so far, great work, I agree with everything Kefka and Sega Chief said as well. I wish there was some way to setup Junctioning kinda like how Sega Chief set up his upgrades, maybe make junctioning 100 cures be a 1 time cost, it costs 100 cures and gives you +5 to a specific stat, maybe it has a high affinity with spirit and gives you +10 there, so it consumes those cures but then you don't have to feel bad about drawing from your supply. To compensate for this massive drawing and changing card mod to lategame maybe make the draw points give more like 20-25 of each spell, encourages you to explore the world and learn move-find.Then since you've used your cure junction you can no longer use it, unless your using cura or curaga instead to give a bigger bonus. Obviously more rare magic like Aura should maybe provide a bigger one time stat boost, because junction a spell and then wanting to use it and lowering your stats just feels bad, like your stats and the spells are competing.


The goalwould be you only need to get 100 of a spell once for junctioning purposes, anything after that is for personal use in battle. Then you could up the difficulty of the mobs on the islands of heaven and hell and maybe somehow bar enc-none and enc-half from working there, really making them a utopia for drawing spells late game but at the cost of difficult battles, or maybe even a boss battle or something? I honestly have no idea what's possible just some ideas I thought up.

I feel like you could keep S-Atk and S-DEF and E-Attack and E-Defense under the old junctioning system, I didn't mind the drawback of using spells there so much, it made more sense I think? But junctioning cure and gaining 50 strength and then needing to use that in combat and losing strength just feels clunky and like bad gameplay design, it's too overpowered and it's so weird that it makes you hate using the magic it took you an hour to draw for everyone.
« Last Edit: 2016-01-02 13:03:11 by olearyf2525 »