Author Topic: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys  (Read 3187 times)

Travis

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I saw Kotaku's quote, "it's been 10 years, what's another two months?"

Lol no game should take this long. I have a bad feeling that the game is going to suck ass, despite having decent sales.

Oh well. continue to push this game at us Square when in reality we would rather have a proper FF7 remake...

EQ2Alyza

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A game done right should never have a time frame. It should always be done when it's done. Let's wait to pass judgement after November.

DLPB

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Still a joke?  They've been a joke since FFX-2 - and I doubt it will change in the near future.

Travis

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A game done right should never have a time frame. It should always be done when it's done. Let's wait to pass judgement after November.

Let's be honest though... 10 years?

No game has taken 10 years to make to my knowledge. And then when you have an event that's main draw is the release date... Then you change it, it's a pretty terrible look.

DLPB

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Let's be honest though... 10 years?

No game has taken 10 years to make to my knowledge. And then when you have an event that's main draw is the release date... Then you change it, it's a pretty terrible look.

It's a sign of how woeful the company is. Their management is all over the place and has been since the merger. The fact they had a huge monopoly at the time really made things worse.  But this is a company that released a bug-ridden game (FF14) and had to re-release it.  This kind of management will kill most companies. If they carry on, not even re-releasing FF7 for the 50th time will save them. They've shown nothing but disdain and contempt for the fanbase - whether it's remakes, rehashes, releases of FF7 for the 50th time, or lack luster main games that are now rarer than diamond, or shutting down fan-based projects.  Everything they are now is a big fat soulless money grabber. 

They are surviving on past glories and a loyal fanbase, who should know better.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-14 13:08:56 by DLPB »

Maki

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No game has taken 10 years to make to my knowledge.

Duke Nukem: Forever was developed for 15 years. :D

Tekkie.X

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Duke Nukem: Forever was developed for 15 years. :D

DNF was 14 years over all, announced in 97 released in June of 2011, it had however been 15 years since Duke3D was released when DNF finally came out. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous though, 4 years is more than enough, most only take 2 to 3 years for a AAA title.

KnifeTheSky77

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It is really sad to see how entitled gamers are. Game dev is incredibly difficult, most have zero concept of what that entails. It's done when it's done.

DLPB

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It is really sad to see how entitled gamers are. Game dev is incredibly difficult, most have zero concept of what that entails. It's done when it's done.

There is nothing entitled about criticizing a 10 year game that has been delayed several times by bad management.  It isn't normal or acceptable.  I find gamers that accept this crap and pay for it to be far more infuriating.

KnifeTheSky77

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The time argument should be a plus, they spend an enormous amount of dev time(expensive) and you still pay the same price, what a steal!

They don't owe you anything, and unless you've worked there, you wouldn't know about their management.

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #10 on: 2016-08-14 23:22:09 »
The time isn't because of effort or because of good design - it's because of poor management and poor design.  No good game developer sets out to make a game in 10 years - it simply isn't a sustainable business model. FF7 is the largest of all FF games and took around 4.  FFX took around 3(?)

FF1-12 did not take 10 years.  It's absurd.

You're just making excuses for it.  ;D
« Last Edit: 2016-08-15 00:08:08 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #11 on: 2016-08-15 05:23:42 »
When a game takes ten years to develop, it's typically a sign of moving goalposts. In Duke Nukem Forever's case, this took the form of constant engine changes, which led to delays long enough that assets needed recreated to stay acceptably modern. This, of course, was often followed by the availability of new engines and an unwillingness of the project's management to release on an older engine.

Final Fantasy XV seems to have had the same problem and more. First, staff got pulled from the project to work on Final Fantasy XIII, thus causing stagnation. This is bad management example 1. They should not have announced the game at a point where they weren't even ready to commit a full team to work on it. After that, there was an engine change to support the open worlds the game was intended to have. This is bad management example 2. An open world game should never have been greenlit on an engine designed for smaller. Then in early 2011 Square Enix saw the PS4 and decided to change platforms. This is bad management example 3. A tremendous amount of work needed redone to bring it to the new console generation. This was a colossal waste of man-hours... though not as bad as it could have been, as it was revealed in July 2011 that the game wasn't even in full production yet.

This brings me to the next TWO examples of management screwing things up. The game had been announced in 2006 yet apparently was not being treated with any kind of priority. In fact, in 2012 when it was internally renamed from Final Fantasy Versus XIII to Final Fantasy XV (though this wouldn't be announced for another year), six years after its announcement, more than two-thirds of the way through its eventual final development period, it was only 25% complete. The project had been backburnered for its first five years since reveal and only in that last year had it seen any real progress. So bad management example 4: The game should never have been revealed as early as it was.

Example 5 is that letting the project remain in development at a slow pace for those first five years eventually brought about a complete throwing away of any man-hours invested before the project was reworked. If it had gotten proper staffing and attention in the first place, it would have been finished in time for a PS3 release to make sense. By only assigning a skeleton team not big enough to finish the project in a reasonable period of time, they all but guaranteed it would eventually need to move platforms. This was also what caused them not to notice for four years that the game's engine wouldn't cut it. This was one monstrously bad decision which begat several more. They literally would have been better off not to work on it at all, and not to announce it when they did.

And then there's example 6, my final example, of how bad management has screwed up Final Fantasy XV. That is the name itself. With the name change, both externally and internally, came a change in what the game was even meant to be. Though still part of Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy, it now needed to be able to justify itself as a main-series game and not as a spin-off. This led to major story/content changes, most obviously the replacement of the character Stella with Luna.

Ultimately, the game that will come out this November is not the result of ten years of development. It is the result of four years of development, along with six years of wastefulness. The problems in this game's dev cycle are fairly well documented. You certainly do not need to have worked for Square Enix to see them; you just need to read interviews. They pretty openly admit to their mistakes, which is awfully easy when you consider the company's higher-ups don't even understand that these were mistakes. I don't want to diminish the hard work of the artists and programmers who worked on this game. They've put in their all, and by the looks of things, done a decent job. However, between a constantly moving target and inadequate dev resources for much of its existence, it never stood a chance of going right, and there is nobody that can possibly be blamed except management.

All that being said, I did really enjoy what time I spent with the "Platinum Demo" earlier this year, and I have high hopes for the actual game. As much of a slap in the face as a delay is after such a protracted development period, it does seem like the current team is giving it their all and really wants not only to release this, but to produce something good. Whether they'll succeed is another matter entirely, but progress over the past four years seems to have been far more substantial than anything before it. This shift is a good sign to me.

As an aside, I have noticed in my research (yes, this post required research; if I was going to tell this story right and make my point adequately I needed to make sure my facts were straight) that the vast majority of real progress seems to have been since Hajime Tabata took over as director. Considering how quickly other Square Enix projects such as Final Fantasy XIII-2 and Final Fantasy XV have moved, and how slowly other Nomura-led projects such as Kingdom Hearts 3 have moved, there is a distinct possibility that Tetsuya Nomura is simply incompetent and dragging the whole company down with him. I get the distinct impression the company gives him a lot of freedom and overlooks a lot of nonsense from him as some sort of revered name, presumably due to having been attached to several of their most successful products such as Final Fantasy VII and Kingdom Hearts. I'm glad to see him no longer working on FFXV, and in fact his absence from the project for the past four years gives me more hope for it than anything else I've heard surrounding it.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #12 on: 2016-08-15 06:52:51 »
What I don't understand, is why someone would call a piece of software a joke just by virtue of the time spent in creating it.

"It has taken SE ten years to roll out a game. What a JOKE, no one should by this GARBAGE, why do people STAND for it!"

I genuinely do not see the logic here.

-Ric-

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #13 on: 2016-08-15 12:33:25 »
It can also have to do with the fact that the Playstation 4 Neo is coming out somewhere in October/November.

What I don't understand, is why someone would call a piece of software a joke just by virtue of the time spent in creating it.

"It has taken SE ten years to roll out a game. What a JOKE, no one should by this GARBAGE, why do people STAND for it!"

I genuinely do not see the logic here.

If it's rushed and sucks.. It's crap, if it's delayed due to needing some adjustments... It's still crap. You just can't please some people  :-P
« Last Edit: 2016-08-15 12:39:40 by -Ric- »

Covarr

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #14 on: 2016-08-15 13:59:10 »
What I don't understand, is why someone would call a piece of software a joke just by virtue of the time spent in creating it.
Except nobody has. We've called the company a joke. This is based on the the fact that it has been bungled from a management point of view. Even if the game turns out excellent, that won't change the fact that another company could've put out a game like this, with the same open world and same level of visual fidelity, in less than half of the time.

As I said in my post, I have high hopes for this game. The demo was really fun, and I rather think the game will be too. I don't think it's at all incongruous to say the game can be good yet also say the company is a joke.

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #15 on: 2016-08-15 19:46:25 »
And that bad management does generally lead to a bad or very inconsistent game - but that remains to be seen.

edit.  lol...  quoted the above in the same post.

« Last Edit: 2017-10-09 22:45:00 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #16 on: 2016-08-15 19:57:45 »
And that bad management does generally lead to a bad or very inconsistent game - but that remains to be seen.
Usually, though not always. In the case of Duke Nukem Forever, the game would have been good if it came out when it was originally supposed to, a decade earlier. What was actually released wasn't necessarily bad, but it felt quite dated in a genre that had progressed a lot, and saddled with design that was no longer considered good (very linear "room after room of enemies" design that was standard for shooters in the late '90s and early '00s). It could be argued that the game's biggest fault, by the time it came out, was that it had stuck too religiously to a design that no longer worked.

Final Fantasy XV is a bit of a different story. Certainly I can vouch for the combat being fun based on the demo, like a deeper Kingdom Hearts, though. Whether the exploration or story hold up is another question entirely, but these things don't become dated nearly as easily... so if they stink, either it'll be because of content creep or because the design was never good to begin with. We already know there have been some changes, though whether those changes were for improvement or for change's sake could make a big difference.

As I said, I have high hopes strictly from having enjoyed the demo. Even if the story turns out as assy as Final Fantasy XIII, at least it'll be a fun action RPG to play. Worthy of the Final Fantasy name? No, too much action. But fun, at least.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #17 on: 2016-08-16 15:27:48 »
Here's the first 52 minutes of FFXV, get your hate ready DLPB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9HQbSTxvXI

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #18 on: 2016-08-16 15:55:50 »
What's to see?  We've seen it all before.  Graphics good (even though parts look like GTA and nothing like a fantasy game), battle system out of control melee - numbers flying all over (check out 30:45.  Anyone think that's even close to strategy?) - with no real thought to strategy. You can see they've added a "wait mode" too in desperation of the fact - and it doesn't fix anything. Flash and little substance (dear god, the "hunts" are back too. Yay for modern "minigames").  It simply isn't a game I'd enjoy playing in the least - but we all know that.  I didn't even need to watch 50 minutes - just needed 5 skimming through.  I can't comment on the story, but I am guessing that's mediocre too.

I am sure a lot of people will love it, but I ain't one of them :)  It definitely didn't need 10 years.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-16 16:35:55 by DLPB »

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #19 on: 2017-10-09 22:45:18 »
Quote
And that bad management does generally lead to a bad or very inconsistent game - but that remains to be seen.
Played it at my mates house the other day. Also watched him play it for a while too.  It's strawberries.  It's as strawberries as it looked on the demos.  Out of control battles.  Press Action and survive nonsense. FFXII style "quests"  yawn. Story is abysmal (based on what I saw, but mainly what he's told me. He also explains it with a constant look of confusion on his face).  It's everything I dislike about modern games and it was obvious that was going to be the case.  He, however, loves it.  But I think he'd love any game that had Final Fantasy printed on the cover and gameplay with lotsa explosions, innit.

Same old crap.
« Last Edit: 2017-10-10 01:48:08 by DLPB »

-Ric-

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #20 on: 2017-10-10 18:45:02 »
Played it at my mates house the other day. Also watched him play it for a while too.  It's strawberries.  It's as strawberries as it looked on the demos.  Out of control battles.  Press Action and survive nonsense. FFXII style "quests"  yawn. Story is abysmal (based on what I saw, but mainly what he's told me. He also explains it with a constant look of confusion on his face).  It's everything I dislike about modern games and it was obvious that was going to be the case.  He, however, loves it.  But I think he'd love any game that had Final Fantasy printed on the cover and gameplay with lotsa explosions, innit.

Same old crap.

The story isn't bad to be honest... It's a pretty decent story BUT, it's missing a few chunks of it... They've actually added some new scenes and content that fills some holes but there are still a decent amount of holes left to fill. To their credit though, they HAVE been adding new content which is a good sign.
As for your gameplay criticism.. well... It's definitely not the typical Final Fantasy-style gameplay so I get you. I personally find it to be decent but it's an extremely subjective thing.

Also I think it's on sale right now for like 19.99$? Honestly for that price, it's a hell of a bargain.

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #21 on: 2017-10-10 19:05:15 »
I personally get no satisfaction out of either, so for me even 5 dollars wouldn't be worth it. :P

I also intensely dislike "added content".  It's created a situation where laziness in design is fine - and it also creates inconsistencies. I want to play a completed game.  They had 10 freakin years.  I'm also not sure when it became acceptable to pay for bug fixes and "add ons" when you've already shelled out big money for the game (I am not sure FF15 does that, but many do).  Modern gamers are, in my opinion, total mugs.
« Last Edit: 2017-10-10 19:20:49 by DLPB »

Cyberman

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #22 on: 2017-11-08 00:33:44 »
I personally get no satisfaction out of either, so for me even 5 dollars wouldn't be worth it. :P

I also intensely dislike "added content".  It's created a situation where laziness in design is fine - and it also creates inconsistencies. I want to play a completed game.  They had 10 freakin years.  I'm also not sure when it became acceptable to pay for bug fixes and "add ons" when you've already shelled out big money for the game (I am not sure FF15 does that, but many do).  Modern gamers are, in my opinion, total mugs.
A slight addendum however, the main game isn't bad it's a bit tritely thought up but some parts I like.
The combat is annoying, the questing is more fun than the combat (by far) also the "FILLER" characters are more interesting than the 3 secondary characters (really), gladios is a bit of fun but a bit too stereotypical.
The story being the prime character and Luna's relationship could have been done a little less childishly not everyone is as immature (at that age) as the script writter thought, it's all relative.
However it's not bad really, some people go crazy with the combat, it was more challenging if I DIDn't follow the instructions but nigh unto impossible (I did try it anyhow).
So at level 50 I started over to see the difference, much easier, I've yet to exit the mainland on the boat.
Not sure I like the "added personal questlines" seems an attempt to be like Zenny Max's ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) which I looked at but said "wait let me check the reviews" good idea apparently. It's quite hated by most people they buy it and wonder why. Well I digress but that's how the "personal questline" thing comes across "pay more money for what should be part of the story". ESO copy cat work? (ESO = Elder Scrolls Online)
Considering how the current head of development at Squenix hates the FF series  it's no surprise that it's kept devolving (why make something you hate good?) Was very outspoke when FF13-2 came out (quite frankly with 13 it's not a surprise he seemed to be trying to kill the franchise).
So yeah it's not great but it's not terrible parts of the story are down right good. Especially the parts that aren't the main questline (for some reason).

Cyb

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #23 on: 2017-11-08 18:16:12 »
I thought the game was pretty good, definitely better than the 13 series. I feel bad for the developers, they could have used another several months of runway but that's business for you.

@cyberman we've established that DLPB only likes games from the 90's, there's no way he'd even give it a chance

DLPB

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Re: FF XV delayed until November... Square is still a joke guys
« Reply #24 on: 2017-11-08 22:20:15 »
Quote

@cyberman we've established that DLPB only likes games from the 90's, there's no way he'd even give it a chance

Yeah, GTA V was so long ago I'd almost forgotten it...  :-D  Honestly, do you feel the need to rationalize someone's objective criticisms so badly that you'll resort to this nonsense response?  :-P