About qhimm.com and piracy

[Bas]

"We Do Not Condone Software Piracy
Asking where to get illegal software or cracks will not be tolerated. Asking for support for the Ultima Edition or any other pirated version of the game will not be tolerated. Any discussion regarding pirated software is an immediate warning. Assisting people that use pirated software is also forbidden."

As far as I know this is made out of the motivation to support the FF community.

I am not going to tell you what to do, but I want to add some things to consider. However, it does not mean that I am using a pirated version.

1. If you are going to get this game new, have fun paying like 160 €
2. "to support the FF community" mostly was meant as "supporting developers". However, one point about this argument is, that even if you buy the game nowadays, you will most likely NOT support any developer. Most copies you can get are used anyways, so they are not getting a single cent out of this. For the "new versions" it is pretty much the same; it is unlikely a merchant will buy this game from the publisher anymore. Most "new versions" are games either lying around for a long time at the merchant's or are from a gamer who never tried out this game at all.
3. The only points negating 2nd are that you can get the game from the PSN meanwhile for about 10 bucks, if I am not mistaken. However, this one doesn't help at all, as - from what I have read - it isn't compatible at all with the mods and packs found on the site.
4. Another point might be that you simple want to be in "safe mode" here, meaning that you want to keep this forums legal at all costs (if it isnt about argument 2nd).
5. I am not entirely sure, but FF7 *could* be abandonware, if it wouldn't be for the PSN versions. Seriously, this game like 15 years (!) old, and even newer games might have been declared as abandonware, if I am not mistaken. So even then it might be legal, but I also do not know about if a game still has is status as abandonware if it got re-released on other plattforms.
I am also no USA citizen, so you might be better informed about the Americans rights about abandonware than I am.

Just a few points worth noting, in my eyes.

This might be the wrong area, but dunno where I should post this one else.

[Jenova's Witness]

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[obesebear]

We already walk a thin line of copyright infringement.  Not to mention the obvious ability of SE to send these forums a C&D effectively shutting us down.  Supporting illegal acquirement of video games (no matter the reasons you may think it is justified) would be welcoming a C&D.
So if you're stupid enough to admit to pirating a game, you will be singled out and not helped, or potentially banned.  Not because you aren't supporting the developers, but because we want this site to continue operating and be a welcome place for creative minds to enhance Final Fantasy games as they best see fit.

[Prince Lex]

I agree with a couple of your points, and I'm sure everyone else does too. But the fact is, supporting pirated version = a higher risk of C & D from Square.

Also, if you knew you could only mod the PC version, and get it for free, why the hell would you bother with the PSN version if the objective is just to play the game? Short answer: you wouldn't.

Therefore supporting pirated software versions must remain the rule, if this community wants to continue with relatively free licence. Yes, it's quite restrictive (no model rips from other compilation titles, etc) but I also think that this inspires creativity.

[Bas]

C & D?

>Also, if you knew you could only mod the PC version, and get it for free, why the hell would you bother with the PSN version if the objective is just to play the game? Short answer: you wouldn't.<

Well, it isn't legal just because any group in the internet decides it is. I mean, it isn't even depend on which decision you are making in this forums, there will be ALWAYS ripped-off games, even if you don't allow them on these forums, so they actually *can* be gotten for free anyways (just noting the possibility, not going to discuss if it is legal or not).

Just to make sure: I am not posting here to change that rule. I am just interested in your intentions, which seems to be focussed on the legal aspect.

But continue on, I am enjoying discussing about that topic, actually.

Oh, and sorry for my bad English

[nfitc1]

C & D?

Cease and Desist order. Basically, if we get that the entire site goes down. The less attention we draw to ourselves the better.

[Swayless]

You bring up some good points, but America is ran by big business.  It's a shame really considering that allowing older games to be free, more attention would brought abiut to newer games of the same series or developers for that game.

[Bas]

Haha, some offtopic.

Actually, at least to us Germans, if not to all Europeans, the "Americans" are known for their weird laws and over- and abusing the law system.

To my eyes, the US government is full of hypocrites, but this is another story....

[Prince Lex]

Bas, what I meant was that if you put yourself in that situation, you would not buy the game.

If you're looking to play Final Fantasy VII, and this site condoned piracy, then a person would not buy it from PSN - they'd get it on the internet for their PC. Therefore it still would hurt their sales. If we did condone it, you can almost guarantee we'd get a C & D because it would impact money they make from the PSN version.

That's what I meant.

And I really don't think America has anything to do with it, considering they're in Japan.

[Bas]

I doubt that the japanese law is THAT easy to enforce in the US. However, since your site is most likely from the US as far as I can tell, they would eather call from japan, but more likely they have some kind of sister or daugther company in the US anyways, so they will most likely call from there. So US law would be applied.

Lex; it is not that I cannot understand that you dont want to allow it, but as you said it almost sounds like this would be the only source to get this game for free then. However, I bet my ass that you can find at least 20 other sources to get it "for free" if you just use google.

If someone wants to pirate it, he/she will mostlikely find a way, with or without the help of a rather small (not meaning to be offensive) forums community.

[Bosola]

1. If you are going to get this game new, have fun paying like 160 €

Only if you don't know where to look. There are plenty of cheap second-hand copies of the PC release if you're patient, likewise the PSX version.

2. "to support the FF community" mostly was meant as "supporting developers". However, one point about this argument is, that even if you buy the game nowadays, you will most likely NOT support any developer.
Most copies you can get are used anyways, so they are not getting a single cent out of this. For the "new versions" it is pretty much the same; it is unlikely a merchant will buy this game from the publisher anymore. Most "new versions" are games either lying around for a long time at the merchant's or are from a gamer who never tried out this game at all.

Or the PSN copy - which does make Square revenue. Square maintain the rights to monetize the game they develop. Just because they don't release it on many channels doesn't mean they lose those rights. Even if they didn't release it anywhere (perhaps as part of a general product strategy), they've still that prerogative.

5. I am not entirely sure, but FF7 *could* be abandonware, if it wouldn't be for the PSN versions. Seriously, this game like 15 years (!) old, and even newer games might have been declared as abandonware, if I am not mistaken. So even then it might be legal, but I also do not know about if a game still has is status as abandonware if it got re-released on other plattforms.
I am also no USA citizen, so you might be better informed about the Americans rights about abandonware than I am.

It isn't abandonware at all. Square-Enix are the explicit copyright holder. Something isn't abandonware just because it's old. All 'Abandonware' means is that copyright ownership is unclear, and no-one has made a claim to it in a while. But someone still might - and yes, they wouldn't have lost their property rights just by dint of being forgetful.

Just a few points worth noting, in my eyes.

Here's another: it hasn't happened recently, to my knowledge, but this forum *has* had visits from Squaresoft's IP range. That means they *are* aware of us.

Lex; it is not that I cannot understand that you dont want to allow it, but as you said it almost sounds like this would be the only source to get this game for free then. However, I bet my ass that you can find at least 20 other sources to get it "for free" if you just use google.

Then there's no need to relax our policy, is there?

[Prince Lex]

Isn't this site based in the EU?

But that's beside the point. I'm not saying that this would be the only place to get it, just that the forum is semi covering itself by being outwardly opposed to piracy, and there's no reason to face the risks associated with changing that.

[Bas]

"Only if you don't know where to look. There are plenty of cheap second-hand copies of the PC release if you're patient, likewise the PSX version."

I must admit that the prices were even higher at amazon from what I do recall. However, I think they dropped that much since the game became aviable in the PSN for some very few bucks and they didnt got that many customer requests anymore (at amazon I mean)

#2: WEll, I am just saying that SE isnt getting ANYTHING if you buy the PSX/PC version. And the PSN version isn't compatible with mods, so dudes NEED the PC/PSX version (Which does most likely not help the devs anymore), that's all.

Forgot about #5, and remember that I used "*could*" instead of "could", cause I wasn't sure at all by myself.

#visits from SE: I meanwhile think that MANY modding coms, not only FF related, are under observation from devs or publishers. Maybe not constantly, but they might take a short look once or twice in the year.

Well, if you want to know how I would handle this matter if these are my forums (no condemnation, it is fine as it is, just a matter of opinion) - I think I would allow to talk about piracy in a limited manner for what I am not responsible where people are getting their games and stuff from, so I would not ban users who said that they pirated the game (I simple won't care that much about it - I am not the one responsible for what they are doing with their internet connection) but I really, really must admit that I definitivly would forbid to post pirated versions at my forums. Why? Simple: Because THERE I am the one responsible for the content, even of other, at least to a limited extend (the judges in Germany have very, very different interpretations and opinions about this responsibility) so I actually would also cancel out this risc by deleting those posts and warn that users.

[xLostWingx]

Organizational Culture.  That is not how we do it here.  Personally, I think it is better not to have potentially dangerous words appearing here so there is less chance of drawing the attention of pirates and other unwanted entities.  I think this thread should go to the trash can.

[Swayless]

Haha, some offtopic.

Actually, at least to us Germans, if not to all Europeans, the "Americans" are known for their weird laws and over- and abusing the law system.

To my eyes, the US government is full of hypocrites, but this is another story....

Here stateside,.at least where I come from, its not as abusive as you think, unleas your a law officer, judge or politician, or rich. Those of us unfortunate enough to live paycheck to paycheck don't get to abuse anything but our cars or our kids, and now days its getting harder to do anything without uncle Sam looking over our shoulders.  When i grew up, it was perfectly acceptable to beat a child's ass if they acted up in public, I myself being a vet of many such public whuppings, learned.  Now you can't even give a kid the evil eye. 

I really don't think America has anything to do with it, considering they're in Japan.

Lex, you do realize.that the majority of our electronics and the componates come from japan or japanese companies?  Don't underestimate how much power they have over a lot of things here in the states.

Organizational Culture.  That is not how we do it here.  Personally, I think it is better not to have potentially dangerous words appearing here so there is less chance of drawing the attention of pirates and other unwanted entities.  I think this thread should go to the trash can.

Kinda closed minded ain't you?

Overall I think that where you get your game from is your business, i do agree its a bit heavy handed to goto the extreme to keep any mention of piracy away.  Someone will always ask and one way or another, they will get an answer, why deny them the pleasure of playing wonderful games?  (my opinion on piracy extends to older games only, of they no longer make it for a certain format then it shouldnt matter how you get it.)  I got lucky in that i found both of my copies at a garage sale, and I've still got my psx version, scratched as it is D;

[Bosola]

#2: WEll, I am just saying that SE isnt getting ANYTHING if you buy the PSX/PC version. And the PSN version isn't compatible with mods, so dudes NEED the PC/PSX version (Which does most likely not help the devs anymore), that's all.

It's still the same game. PSX/PC download links *will* harm PSN sales, in at least some small way. It is still theft. That's how the law sees it, like it or not.

Forgot about #5, and remember that I used "*could*" instead of "could", cause I wasn't sure at all by myself.

You said it was 'something to keep in mind'. I told you why it wasn't.

#visits from SE: I meanwhile think that MANY modding coms, not only FF related, are under observation from devs or publishers. Maybe not constantly, but they might take a short look once or twice in the year.

Yep. And that's how they managed to quickly apprehend the Chrono Compendium project and shut it down. Not just Chrono Ressurection - the community reverse engineering knowledgebase, too.

I am not putting our decade's worth of research at risk.

I would allow to talk about piracy in a limited manner for what I am not responsible where people are getting their games and stuff from, so I would not ban users who said that they pirated the game (I simple won't care that much about it - I am not the one responsible for what they are doing with their internet connection) but I really, really must admit that I definitivly would forbid to post pirated versions at my forums.

Er... that's more or less what we do. Pirates get the pirate avatar, and no-one's allowed to share download links. Users aren't supposed to assist pirate players, but that's usually moot as our community drivers don't support their copies anyway.

Why? Simple: Because THERE I am the one responsible for the content, even of other, at least to a limited extend (the judges in Germany have very, very different interpretations and opinions about this responsibility) so I actually would also cancel out this risc by deleting those posts and warn that users.

Which is exactly what we do.

[Swayless]

Yep. And that's how they managed to quickly apprehend the ChronoCompendium project and shut it down. Not just ChronoRessurection - the community reverse engineering knowledgebase, too.

I am not putting our decade'sworth of research at risk.

Which was down right retarded of them, SE could have made bank off that project and introduced Chrono to a whole new generation of gamers.  That's one of my biggest problems wjtht the dev teams of companies that are far too concerned with $ then anything else.
Think about it though, sure, they got the software by less yhen favorable means.but we are talking about ff7, any gamer that is actually interested in such an old gake to begin with isn't going to be youebtypical idiot who downloads games as soon as its been released, which does harm companies.  As far as it being released on psn/ps3, that's fine and dandy but I personally don't have 300 plus bucks to spend on a gaming rig right now, def not one that lostvits backwards comparability shortly after coming out.
Piracy itself has its own upsides and downsides, when it comes to older games you just cant get ahold if, fantastic, if your downloading the latest black ops, feel ashamed

[Prince Lex]

Lex, you do realize.that the majority of our electronics and the componates come from japan or japanese companies?  Don't underestimate how much power they have over a lot of things here in the states.

I was talking about getting a C & D from Square, which has nothing to do with American law. Again, how much power Japanese electronics have over the world, not just the North American countries, has nothing to do with the discussion of the piracy of this particular game.

The only way the US is relevant in this conversation is when considering the populations of people with access to this game. As this site/ forum is not based in the US or Canada, and Square Enix are mainly based in Japan, US law is irrelevant.

EDIT:

As far as it being released on psn/ps3, that's fine and dandy but I personally don't have 300 plus bucks to spend on a gaming rig right now, def not one that lostvits backwards comparability shortly after coming out.

Sorry, just noticed this. If someone wanted to play the game that badly they could always just buy the original PSX version and use ePSXe. That's a bit of a grey area in itself, but you can make the game look excellent with some of those openGL plugins.

[Bas]

Oh, I just want to note that I am positivly proud of that we can discuss such a sensitive topic such civilized.

Lex, you do realize.that the majority of our electronics and the componates come from japan or japanese companies?  Don't underestimate how much power they have over a lot of things here in the states.

As far as I am aware of, it is true that most electronics are produced in Asia but not in japan, but rather in china and/or taiwan (just think about Foxxcon). Japan might be one of those heads introducing and planning new consoles and some video games, but at least the electronics are most likely produced in chin/tw.

I thought the C & D has to be ordered by a US lawsuit or am I mistaken?

>Here stateside,.at least where I come from, its not as abusive as you think, unleas your a law officer, judge or politician, or rich<

Well, it is also what some judges do decide to choose as a penalty. Though, I must of course admit that the USA are 27 times as big as Germany, so more room for scandals then anyways.
For isntance, I can recall a case where a about 15 or 16 years old girl had a boyfriend over 18 years (I guess) which was forbidden in that state. The parents went to the police, the girl didn't agree to tell the boy's name to the police, so SHE got arrested for a short while for covering someone who did a crime. The parents even said it was OK that way.
The paradoxum:  The law was meant to be to protect the teens. Now, because the girl ("subject") didn't told them the name of the boy, she HERSELF got the penalty.

Just one example of many.

>Which is exactly what we do.<
If I am not mistaken, you are even closing threads and posts if someone just says he has got the pirate version.
Not saying it is wrong doing so, but I guess I wont handle it the same way, that's all.

[Prince Lex]

It's necessary to close threads in which people who don't read the rules before posting state they have the pirated version, because the rules very clearly and explicitly state what is considered piracy and the reason we don't assist those with a pirated version.

Leaving them open for discussion results in:

New Poster: plz halp v got ultimaff7 n can't get modz 2 wurk!!! halphalp!!!

Mod: We do not condone pirated software and will not help you.

New poster: bt I wantz AC modelz in mah gaem nao!!!!!

And the discussion would go on. Hence closing of the threads.

[sl1982]

A cease and desist is just a letter from square enix's lawyers telling us to stop what we are doing or face a lawsuit. A C&D is not a court order, it does not force us to do anything. But ignoring one would be an act of stupidity unless you wish to fight teams of lawyers.

[Bas]

A cease and desist is just a letter from square enix's lawyers telling us to stop what we are doing or face a lawsuit. A C&D is not a court order, it does not force us to do anything. But ignoring one would be an act of stupidity unless you wish to fight teams of lawyers.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up! I didn't know the term at all, so it is basically just a warning, but which might result in serious consequences if not reacted properly to.

[Swayless]

I post from ny cellphone and pulling quotes like yall do is just too much so ill just address each point specifically.

@Lex; from what I understand, SE is a Japanese corporation right?  The amount of influence they wield, primarily from the business tatics from the 80s, flooding the market with much cheaper products, ie tv, radio and other electronics is what shut down a lot of America's production side in those fields, once they took over the American market, they pretty much grabbed the USA by the short ones.  It wouldn't be anything for square to send a C&D just for Shits and Giggles, and there would be no way to fight it, even if you had nothing.to do with piracy to begin with.  As for the location of this website/forum and us law, where do you think the primary lawsuit is gonna come from?   The USA, all because we have the polical power to enforce frivolous lawsuits and chase them all over the worls.  Imo anyways.
As for the psx ver, unless your lucky,.can you really trust what some cat says knowing full and well that once he has your money, there's very little you can fo with the bunk discs he mailed you? what amazon wants is just insane, so I won't even go there.

Hold on, be right back,.cake.

Edit; good bday cake.

Alright, where was I.  Oh, yes.
@Bas; while China and Taiwan produce them, who do you think is prinarily responsible for development?
As for the judges, most don't care, its pay your fines or goto jail.  Nevermind that most cases are against the poor and that the fines often grossly exceed the crime.  As for the case you mentioned, theres just certain levels of stupidity you just can't account for.