Author Topic: Not so sure I would like a Square remake of FF7, after all...  (Read 30931 times)

luksy

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Cid is the real sh*t-talker in FFVII, from what we've done so far he's the only one who's actually used a fairly strong swearword in the Japanese, Barrett just sounds like "average tough guy at the bar".

DLPB I am going to try to say this without being offensive...

Just my 2 gil:

I get you LostWing, FFVII for you (and it goes without saying me & DLPB)  holds a particular place in our memories, but each one of our experiences was of course unique.

For me the dialogue in FFVII was full of "huh?" moments back when I first played it, but the story and characters still shone through. Still that thought stuck at the back of my mind for 10+ years before I actually thought to myself "What was actually said there in the original? Why did that sound so awkward?", that's when I poked around and found the Qhimm forums, and DLPB and his project.

When I first started I honestly completely underestimated everything, from the amount of dialog, to just how many errors there actually are in the original English. We all know the famous "this guy are sick" etc., but those little grammatical errors are only the tip of the iceberg.

I've hardly spent a single day on this project without a serious semantical error cropping up in the dialogue, we're not talking "touph ring" or "off course" any more; take for instance Yuffie's dialogue aboard the Highwind.

Original

Quote
{YUFFIE}
“Are you waiting for {CLOUD}?”{NEW}
“He's flying right now, so you can't get him.”{NEW}
“Were you going to force me
   into the submarine right now?”{NEW}
“Quit it!
   If you want to go, then just leave me behind.”{NEW}
“…ooooooh.
   What're you talking about? I…”

As localized by DLBP, not literal but captures the meaning better

Quote
{YUFFIE}
“{CLOUD}…
   Have you decided
   where we're goin' yet?”{NEW}
“Come on!
   I can't take much more of this!”{NEW}
“Hey,you're not thinkin' of shovin'
   me in that crappy sub,are you!?”{NEW}
“I won't go! Never!
   Leave me here,
   leave me here!”{NEW}
“…Urrrrk.
   What am I saying…?”

whoever did this misread the first line, then used the wrong grammatical person, and as a result had to fit the second line to match it somehow. What we ended up with is a nonsensical mess (actually I'm still not 100% sure I've got it right either...)

Big deal, it's only one minor dialogue from an optional character I hear you say. But that's the thing, there are truckloads of these errors, including quite a few that directly affect major events in subtle ways (off the top of my head Niblheim past & present has a generous helping).

I understand you want your memories of the game to stay the same, quirks and all, and that's fine; I just hope that you can appreciate my point of view too.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-07 06:06:50 by luksy »

obesebear

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So we're trying this new program that automatically deletes posts that seem whiny or overly immature.   If anyone notices their posts missing, it could be due to this new program...

strife98

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So we're trying this new program that automatically deletes posts that seem whiny or overly immature.   If anyone notices their posts missing, it could be due to this new program...

This makes me want a thumbs up or a like button now.  :-P

DLPB_

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edit. ^ his post was deleted.

It is really simple.  Barrett is a character created by a Japanese team of writers who expected a competent job on their work.  If J K Rowling went over to Japan and found out Harry Potter spoke in some kind of gangsta equivalent, she would not be happy.

No one has the right to take someone elses work and do what they like with it.  Your personal preferences do not come into it.  A localiser has the right to make the game sound good to a westerner WITHIN the boundaries of keeping the characters and facts the same.  This did not happen.  Barrett was made into a dumb black guy ripped off from a famous american black guy.

There is no way around this.  There is no argument to be made.  Until you can fathom that the original Barrett was every bit the mistake that the Aeris spelling was, you will get nowhere.  I have not personally abused you.  I have told you that you are flat out wrong, and now you get into a hissy fit.  To quote Cloud... I'm not interested.

I don't think you have even bothered to read half the stuff I have put up otherwise you'd see only parts of his dialogue-type has been changed.  The use of spelling mistakes, his use of $$^^$$#^^%  all over, and other things that portray "Stereotypical black man gangsta"  90% is actually much the same. 

The truth is, you can't accept someone else's opinion without bringing it to an extreme personal level.

I will sum it up for you a last time:

  • I have nothing against you liking the original Barrett, however wrongly translated he was.
  • I have nothing against you liking the original localisation, however bad it was.
  • I have nothing against you choosing to ignore our project or not use it.


And then:

  •   I do have a problem with you criticising our project because it doesn't do what you want it to do (namely... leave all the mistakes because you liked the mistakes...)
  • I do have a problem with you criticising a project you have never even looked into properly
  • I do have a problem with you protecting a flawed original game just because you personally liked it.
  • I do have a problem with you making ridiculous analogies with sandwiches, ignoring that this is a work of art created by someone else. Making a point that your personal preference supersedes the actual writers is in my opinion... awful.
  • I do have a problem with you failing to realise that your position on this is absurd.  You are choosing to elevate 1 man (Michael Baskett) to an almost god-like position of authority on VII when it is clear he got tons of things wrong.  You want me to join you in this delusion and if I don't, you get mad about it.
  • Finally, I do have a problem with you failing to realise that although you like the original localisation because YOU grew up with it, other people may now have the chance to grow up on OURS.  Who is right then, at the end?  I am sure they would use the same argument you do now.  You know what the difference is?  They would have been playing something that had far far less mistakes and bad English.  And... they would have been playing Final Fantasy VII as intended... not how 1 man messed up. Think about it.

    The position that something is right because it was done that way years ago is ridiculous.  To adhere so strongly to the original for the sole reason that it was the original, makes absolutely NO sense and is completely illogical.  Expecting a translation project to leave mistakes in or simply not exist at all because you liked the mistakes is down right crazy.

    BY all means, like the original.  But please do not try to make excuses for it, or tell me (or infer) that I what I am doing is wrong, when it is quite the opposite.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-08 15:45:13 by DLPB »

StickySock

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I actually very much liked the gangsta Barret. He was funny, tough, sensitive, and a badass.

But when doing a translation, faithfulness to the original is most important. For a pb & j analogy, it may have been an almond sandwich you liked better all along but if you want to ever tell someone you like it you must tell them you like almond sandwiches, not pb and j's. Or in otherwords, liking a mistranslation and not the more accurate one.

We all have preferences, and as many that can stay out unless supported by evidence should stay out. That's not to say someone couldnt make an alternate version with gangsta barret, but it is important to start with an accurate foundation.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-08 05:30:59 by StickySock »

ultima espio

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How do we always end up with the same conversation?

Seriously, nowadays we always end up with either a discussion on a remake or the translation.

DLPB_

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I was to blame here.  Originally.  I should keep my fat gob on my own thread. :evil:  The truth is I like my own posts too much.  A rare time I can see clear sanity and logic.  ;D
« Last Edit: 2012-06-08 12:42:30 by DLPB »

LeonhartGR

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I agree with DLPB...

DLPB_

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My problem isn't with criticism. It is with the mindless "Why are you changing something I grew up and loved"  "I don't want you changing the mistakes because...."

That isn't valid or helpful, it just makes me angry. 

Quote
Personally, I cringe when I see text changes however "more accurate" they may be.

And that makes no sense at all.  Cringe at improving mistakes?  How can I possibly get through to that kind of mind?

Other games have been retranslated and really improved on what went before...  the localisers there sure didn't pay any attention to people who may have preferred "I have information Shinra" etc.

I understand full well the reason some people do not like our project.  Earlier criticisms of literal non dialogue were perhaps valid, but here we are simply talking about fanboyism and nostalgia.  I have even had 1 guy defend Midgar Zolom because he liked it.

Getting back on topic... any remake of VII would improve the translation, so anyone who thinks they would keep Midgar Zolom or the dialogue mistakes is mad.  They have already corrected that one and Proud Clod in later games like IX and XIII.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-08 16:41:47 by DLPB »

Livesey

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Of course your problem isn't with criticism, criticism is good for a project, an outside eye never hurt anyone.

Also Proud Clod... To this day I have been reading it as Proud Cloud, no idea why now I feel stupid.

xLostWingx

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Lol, have fun.  Asking human beings about their beliefs is prohibited (should be a sticky).

EDIT:  Deleted. lmao
« Last Edit: 2012-06-09 05:36:19 by xLostWingx »

msifreakster

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Also Proud Clod... To this day I have been reading it as Proud Cloud, no idea why now I feel stupid.

You aren't the only one. It took me a while to notice the difference and I have to read it twice every time now because I know it's wrong but I STILL read it that way first  :)

Magicbob

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Though I have to agree that the majority of "Cloud's" after FFVII are emo, not all of them are. Crisis Core Cloud was pretty on par with his attitude in FFVII. He was happy a lot of the time, showed sadness when talking about not making it to SOLDIER and after arriving in Nibelheim (for the same reason). Square still remembers how to make Cloud a decent likable character and still stay true to the original, whether or not they actually DO stay true to it though may be another story entirely. It's a gamble, but worst-case-scenario if the DO remake VII and DO make him emo and annoyingly depressing, we still have the original, and nobody can take that from us.

Anyway, as for the discussion on translations and the project itself, I have to agree with DLPB. People complain about "correcting" the text saying the original was better, but I think they forget, the original was the JAPANESE title before it even hit the English language. If you are a true fan to the game, you would keep an open mind to the idea of the project, not completely pushing it away before you even touch it. Granted if you still like the original more, that's your opinion and you have a right to it. However, keeping a closed mind away from the idea entirely JUST because of nostalgia is an ignorant thing to do. Change isn't always a bad thing, if nothing ever changed, and everyone was against it, this forum wouldn't be here to begin with.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-14 10:10:51 by Magicbob »

Livesey

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And remember people opinions CAN and very often ARE wrong.

Vgr

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A side-note about Crisis Core : Crisis Core is a really good game. It has a good gameplay (sure, it's almost the same as FFVII's) but should be a game of itself. Not a prequel or any compilation of an already-finished game. Crisis Core would be fine if they didn't add Genesis and Angeal. I liked Angeal in the beginning. Then I began to hate him. His idea of "honor" and how he killed his own mother (sorry for spoilers) and all that. Genesis, while a good character, was simply out of place here. I mean come on, they changed the original story. DoC and AC are just pointless and add nothing to the story. I agree Vincent and Yuffie needed a bigger place, but is that a valid reason to make another game, with the name "Final Fantasy" on it, a First Person Shooter, that adds nothing? No. The answer is no, and that's all. They have their stories, in the original game. I will agree that FF7's story is very hard to understand, but adding a sequel, a prequel or a movie will not help. When I first played FF7 in English, I didn't know much and I thought that such errors like "This guy are sick" were intended, because in my head that game was perfect. I was mistaken, I realized.

Magicbob

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lol Agreed. Had Crisis Core completely left out Angeal and Genesis, I wouldn't complain at all. They changed too much to the story, had it just been some kind of Ex-shinra scientist who helped Hojo or something like that and adding depth and hints to Sephiroth's origins, the game would probably be perfect. But thats just my opinion.

archerxtreme

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......

Vgr

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Something too : Crisis Core is a good game AS-IS, not as a prequel, sequel or whatever.

archerxtreme

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Something too : Crisis Core is a good game AS-IS, not as a prequel, sequel or whatever.

though the ending movies totally eliminated the possibility of it being a stand alone side story. That's rather sad