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What specs do you have?

OS: Windows XP
2 (3.3%)
OS: Windows Vista / 7 / 8
27 (45%)
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10 (16.7%)
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Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Bootleg Configurator UI  (Read 8601 times)

EQ2Alyza

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #25 on: 2014-08-08 04:55:44 »
We're not implementing 7H into Bootleg, for obvious reasons that you and I know Kaldarasha. Vgr has never used 7H before, coupled along with the hours of mindless chat we've had tonight, I think he was just a tad zombified from tiredness and responded before knowing the situation.

Vgr

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #26 on: 2014-08-08 04:58:36 »
We're not implementing 7H into Bootleg, for obvious reasons that you and I know Kaldarasha. Vgr has never used 7H before, coupled along with the hours of mindless chat we've had tonight, I think he was just a tad zombified from tiredness and responded before knowing the situation.

I'm not zombified, I'm just a squirrel ok, don't judge me

EQ2Alyza

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #27 on: 2014-08-08 05:02:28 »
It's true, he's the nutcase of the crew.

Vgr

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #28 on: 2014-08-08 05:07:14 »
I'm a squirrel, and everyone knows I'm nuts. Does this mean... oh strawberries. I'm a zombie squirrel ain't I.

...

I need sleep.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #29 on: 2014-08-08 05:58:49 »
Look, if Bootleg don't use 7th Heaven then its meaningless to work on it anymore.
Because 7th Heaven will over run it after a while, it is faster in the installation, it keeps the files as they are, it doesn't need certain mods to run properly, you can safely disable a mod if you don't like it and it offers more possibility to mod the game. Overall it is very independent. The only downside is it might increase the start time for the game for a few seconds.

Also if we have two different Mod installer we will split up the people in Bootleg users and 7th Heaven users, which means maintaining two FAQ and Problems threads. If it comes worse Bootleg will even hold down 7th Heaven at the beginning, because former Bootleg user will use Bootleg, without even to consider to use 7th Heaven. This is competition we don't need.
I appreciate the work and the GUI looks awesome, but a Bootleg without 7th Heaven will end in a disaster (OK maybe not that extreme), however I fear that this work will be done for nothing and only slows down the development of 7th Heaven at the end.

I hate to be the one who brought this up, but it's an elemental question: will this be a Bootleg for the future with 7th Heaven or only a restoration of the old Bootleg?

Sora123masta

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #30 on: 2014-08-08 06:26:56 »
I'm a squirrel, and everyone knows I'm nuts. Does this mean... oh sh*t. I'm a zombie squirrel ain't I.

...

I need sleep.

Dude, get some sleep. :< 

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #31 on: 2014-08-08 06:31:36 »
You guys know what would be great? If you could pick and choose the exact mods you want with this tool, save and package your config into a .iro, then apply the mod with 7th heaven. This looks too intuitive and awesome to disregard as useless kaldarasha

As it stands, if you want to mod ff7, you need to individually download mods and package them(Big PITA especially the first time doing it, or if you haven't done it in a while) package it into an .iro and then load it up. It would take the whole headache out of modding our beloved ff7. My $0.02  :mrgreen:

Insight

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #32 on: 2014-08-08 06:52:31 »
First things first. A change management will be implemented after bootleg is part of the UI. Can't do everything at once. We also don't like the idea of uninstallation the complete game and so on.

You should already know that this bootleg release is a copy of the old bfe with improvements. The current new UI is just a first try and may change in the future as well. We did need a UI in the first place which can be supported in the future and yes, that will be me. since brat has no time to offer anymore. Don't get us wrong, 7th is trying hard and is doing a great job and that's good. There had to be an alternative over time, it is a consequence for no new updates when it comes to bootleg.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #33 on: 2014-08-08 08:35:54 »
Quote
You guys know what would be great? If you could pick and choose the exact mods you want with this tool, save and package your config into a .iro, then apply the mod with 7th heaven.

Here is the problem, if you use the Bootleg configuration as a .iro mod you barely can use any other mod without to overwrite important settings you actually want to have. As I said my model overhaul would overwrite any other model selection if it is on top. I don't create an exception for other models, when it is easier to place over mine a .iro mod with all available Cloud models.
The best solution I see is to let Bootleg configure some basic Bootleg.iro mods and to let it sort the load order in 7th Heaven. Also it would be wise to make the setting first in Bootleg and after this the Download of the mods will start depending on the selection.

Quote
First things first.
Yes and the first thing is to decide in which direction the project should go. Actually I should have started this discussion earlier.

Quote
There had to be an alternative over time, it is a consequence for no new updates when it comes to bootleg.

This makes things only complicated. Why design a new car with an old engine at first, when you have a new engine already in front of you? Sure implementing 7th H. in Bootleg and making the necessary .iro mods will be much of work, but doing it afterwards will be a lot more work, because then you try to merge the old engine with the new one.

Here is an example:
Bootleg and 7th Heaven can co-exist, due how both work. So a user will bootleg his FF7 installation (30gigs to have all files), but he wants a certain difficulty mod which only is available as a 7th Heaven mod. He will try 7.H. for it and get used to it. While the new Bootleg might be able to update mods more freely, he will use 7.H. to update mods, because it's faster to test them out. Anyway after a while he wonders why he has so less disk space and he will see that his FF7 installation use 49GBytes, because he use now many .iro mods which do cover the whole game plus the bootleg installation, which is not even actively used anymore. What has pushed up the space use? Because he wanted to restore some settings in 7.H. he has used in his Bootleg installation, he has some mods twice and of course unnecessary moded files and here back ups.

This is a bit drastically, but it shows that it isn't userfriendly to have two mod installer. But the concept of a mod manger is to be userfriendly, otherwise it's a failure. I don't want to say updating Bootleg is entirely wrong, many former Bootleg user will use it.
Well it's up to you, if you guys would hear on my advice and built Bootleg around on 7th Heaven or if you really want to deal with this old 'Behemoth'. I simply don't want that people are working hard on something and in the end they realize that the work was for nothing or had to be done differently.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #34 on: 2014-08-08 15:03:17 »
I get almost everything you're saying Kaldarasah. I personally will be using 7H in the future, but not to disregard Bootleg if it needs the help as well. What I'm not understanding is your idea of using Bootleg + 7H. I'm not seeing how they can coexist, so what exactly is your idea behind that?

Sora123masta

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #35 on: 2014-08-08 15:16:18 »
I'm curious on how they could co-exist as well, i'm not seeing the "big picture" here with them having to co-exist. : I   

sen

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #36 on: 2014-08-08 15:23:59 »
« Last Edit: 2014-08-19 18:11:45 by sunz »

Sora123masta

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #37 on: 2014-08-08 16:29:52 »
I just saw the teasers. I am really impressed with the work being put into it. You're doing a great job. 

Insight

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #38 on: 2014-08-08 17:07:07 »
i can see everyones worries (and Kal's point) and that it might lead to ultimate destruction  :-P but the community will decide what they want.

we will continue our work and evolve the bootleg. you have the choice, you have the power.


LeonhartGR

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #39 on: 2014-08-08 17:17:11 »
What's the point if it doesn't work. I agree with Kaldarasha. Some mods overwrite others. Maybe that can be mentioned in the description field for those mods.

...you have the choice, you have the power.

Actual Avalanche member spotted :D

Kaldarasha

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #40 on: 2014-08-08 19:33:54 »
i can see everyones worries (and Kal's point) and that it might lead to ultimate destruction  :-P

That's why said that I hate to bring this up.

What I'm not understanding is your idea of using Bootleg + 7H. I'm not seeing how they can coexist, so what exactly is your idea behind that?

The only point why to use Bootleg instead of 7th Heaven is it's ability to sort and installs mods in the right manner so they work together. 7th Heaven doesn't care, if the mod order is good or not, it expects that the user knows what he is doing.

So why not combine the strength of both and letting Bootleg sort the mods of 7th Heaven (similar like LOOT for Skyrim, which has become the new BOSS tool.)?
The ideal concept I can imagine is that I make my settings in Bootleg as usual and when I click on install, it will give 7th Heaven the information, which mods to download. And after that's done Bootleg will sort the mods so that they will work together.
The good thing is for Bootleg with this way that the maintenance of the mods is ways easier as it is with the old Bootleg method. You have a problem with a model? We only need to spot the iro, fix it and upload a new version of it. 7th Heaven will update the mod and everything works without a nasty uninstall and installation process. Bootleg can be update much faster, because all it do is to administrate the mods in 7th Heaven, so it's only needed to make Bootleg familiar with new mods and where they have to be in the load order. Even if Aali makes an update to his driver we aren't in the position anymore to say 'You have to use the old driver if you want everything working'. Another bonus is that we can support with 7th Heaven future mods, which introduce new folder structures like the voice over project.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: Bootleg Configurator UI
« Reply #41 on: 2014-08-08 19:54:47 »
I'm not so sure the game is as complex as Skyrim to need a tool like LOOT/BOSS. Right now, the only load order priorities I've come across creating the catalog are with Difficulty/Story mods and Weapon mods. Some of the Difficulty/Story mods use their own char.lgp models, but not very many, so we're talking about the abilities to want to mix and match Kaldarasha models with, for example, Aerith Revival to make Kaldarasha's Aerith field models consistent throughout an AR playthrough. But all I did was create multiple Aerith Revival options and labeled them for use with their partner Field Models option. The only thing that can go wrong with this is if the user chooses, for example, Kaldarasha Field Models and MXster (Chibi Size) Aerith Revival. Then they will have a mismatch between all the field models and the Aerith field model.

IF we ever get to have an enemy model overhaul, then I can see the potential of needing a LOOT/BOSS like system because some of the Difficulty mods change the enemy models in the battle.lgp. But even then, modders need to learn to create their own model files like gjoerulv did in the Hardcore mod, completely separating it from the original game files. This will then not cause any conflict with enemy model changes to the original game files in battle.lgp.

I do think it would be pretty neat to have a presetup for 7H, where users choose what mods they would like and after the click of a button, 7H will automatically set all those options. But we're talking about eliminating the need to click each individual Configure button and choosing options that way. The time saved from that doesn't seem like a huge priority.
« Last Edit: 2014-08-08 19:57:59 by EQ2Alyza »