Grevier's missing links?

[The Skillster]

i just saw some news posted at http://www.ngemu.com/
regarding a psx ff8 memory save editor
thought id have alook to see if they ripped Qhimm's one.
but no, its the author of psxmemtools, who has been around, and judging by the information  in the screenshots, it looks like he has been able to edit location data, and actually has all the possible values listed. maybe theres something in there that can be added to the greiver source??
fice, alhexx shinra?? anyone had a look?

[Qhimm]

Curious, I just got back from checking out the latest PSXMemtool which includes the "Griever FF8 editor" by Cyberman. This editor is (no surprise) a "semi-rip" of Griever, meaning the code is to some extent based on Griever, and design (graphics) heavily based on Griever. But from that, he's apparently been able to further implement lots of stuff.

My only objection is that he might've either made his own graphics or acknowledged me for creating them. Currently, the influence of the original Griever is merely listed as a source for information.

But hey, at least this time I was credited. (woo-hoo!)
And it's good that at least someone out there is willing to continue working on FF8 saves.

Edit: Hmm, just noticed that his GF editor doesn't appear to fully handle the ability system yet (no surprise, it's fairly advanced). I guess it's like he says, he's using the information contained in Griever instead of the actual code. Programmer's pride, heh

[halkun]

The guy posts on this board sometimes. He said he would credit me for the PSX memory card format, looking at the readme shows he hasn't yet ;_;

[Lord Kane]

Would you like me to modify the news item on NGEmu so that it gives you credit?

[halkun]

If you can do it tactfully, sure..

To offer proof that some of my work is in there too, download my PSX doc http://www.zophar.net/tech/psx.html And get to the bit about the memory card format. Compare the way I discribe the block linking system and then look at the way he discribes them. He uses the same exact termonology I do. My doc's a little older than his program, and the only other open source for explaining the memcard format is in Japanese (I originally translated it).

I not angery, I would just like some credit where it's due.

[Qhimm]

I agree with halkun, credit where it's due. Whenever I use someone else's work (to such an extent it's worth mentioning), I always credit them precisely. I also usually ask them personally if they are satisfied with how they will be credited before releasing anything. But that might just be me.

What offends me isn't that I miss out on the glory when I'm not properly credited, it's that other people will credit someone else for my work.

In this case with Cyberman I'm largely OK with it, except for the uncredited use of all my hand-made graphics. I would have appreciated if he contacted me before releasing it, because now the only way people will know where the graphics came from is if they've used Griever itself previously - otherwise they'll just assume it's Cyberman's work. Had he done so, I would probably have voiced some concern over the slightly inadequate crediting.

But like halkun, I'm not angry about it, nor do I feel the need to further bitch about it publically. As he says, if you can do something tactfully, sure. Perhaps direct the author(s) to this topic? Just letting them now what we think, and let them take any action if they feel it's appropriate? I dunno.

[Lord Kane]

I've just contacted the author, and asked him to view this topic. I'll wait on modifying the news item until such time as I get a response.

[Lord Kane]

K, he got bak to e, apologises for the lack of links, and asked me to edit the new item accordingly.

[Cyberman]

Hello people!

In this case with Cyberman I'm largely OK with it, except for the uncredited use of all my hand-made graphics. I would have appreciated if he contacted me before releasing it, because now the only way people will know where the graphics came from is if they've used Griever itself previously - otherwise they'll just assume it's Cyberman's work. Had he done so, I would probably have voiced some concern over the slightly inadequate crediting.

Well no one is perfect I always say, I am far from it. Without Qhimm's structure and nice icons (yep they are borrowed an oversite sorry about that) I wouldn't have been able to get it to work (laugh).  I personally don't want credit for someone elses work, in this world no matter what you do .. it's based on something someone else did.  I would say one would have to be a bit mad to say they made something completely from scratch.

In anycase (back to the subject at hand), I'm sorry about not giving proper credit, I borrowed a number of the graphics (which I thought were pretty nicely done) and save state structure information.  I started it before I found your page, however as one might guess without Qhimm's work, reinventing the wheel would take a long long while (talk about making square wheels).  I then decided to try and continue his work, unfortunately the project got laid aside until I was bored one day and started it up again.  What you see is actually not the same project as Griever, it's a derivative work.  I named it Griever FF8 just so people know its based on Qhimms work.  (I guess that was the idea at least).

I'm not sure what to do about PSX save format and where I should give credit to halkun but I'll put him in.  I am not precisely sure what to give credit to who, as I have some ancient text files from Japan on them too (I can't read Japanese and Japanese writting english can be hard to read as well).  Let me know what you did?  I use some of the information in the program to skip to the save information.   I also used some code available on the net to convert SJIS to unicode (one character at a time). To read the save state text in the header of the save state start block.  I've not released any of this code (since it's just to test the DLL I made).

Thanks for reminding me about what was borrowed, I try to give credit to anyone of whom my work is based on (except the huge list of people who made the compilor tools just would get too long ) if it were up to me, I wouldn't have had my name on it (laughs). Then poor Undeclive would be given heck, so I will take the verbage.  I just thought someone might find my program useful and I neglected to properly credit the right people. I can't say it won't happen again my memory is terrible sometimes.

i just saw some news posted at http://www.ngemu.com/
regarding a psx ff8 memory save editor
thought id have alook to see if they ripped Qhimm's one.
but no, its the author of psxmemtools, who has been around, and judging by the information in the screenshots, it looks like he has been able to edit location data, and actually has all the possible values listed. maybe theres something in there that can be added to the greiver source??
fice, alhexx shinra?? anyone had a look?

As for what I've found, I can update some of the structures in Griever if you like with the additional information I've found.  The code I've made is rather .. huge (sad but true).  Even worse, it needs finished (shock).  Anyhow I am glad people are understanding about how people make mistakes like "Doh I forgot about credit for that".

Edit: Hmm, just noticed that his GF editor doesn't appear to fully handle the ability system yet (no surprise, it's fairly advanced). I guess it's like he says, he's using the information contained in Griever instead of the actual code. Programmer's pride, heh

Well I had it working but I changed something and I haven't attempted to fix it (laughs). Definately some buggy code, in there.  I'm surprised I got the junctioning working although selecting magic is still troublesome.  GF compatibility was surprisingly easy to figure out though.

I'm still trying to hunt down the world map location information in the save state but that's not been a high priority, I thought I had found it twice but I think it's mixed in with other information in the save state.

As for a rip .. not really .. the codes 99% mine, the structures as I said are used and the information on decoding and encoding text is used and of course the graphics.  I really didn't think about releasing it yet but I did I guess one has to live with ones decisions no matter what ones intentions originally were.

Nice talking and listening to your concerns, I've modified and given where credit is due. Here are the credits changes hopefully they will be satisfactory

Code: [Select]


   CommentBox->Lines->Add("Special Thanks goes to the following people:");
   CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "Qhimm: Creator of Griever 0.82 which this "
      "plugin code is based on the information "
      "contained in this util. I have added a number of "
      "new data fields to it as I've played through FF8 "
      "again."
      );
   CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "Qhimm's well made Icon's and "
      "graphics are shamefully reused in this "
      "from his original Griever project "
      "release, no credit is taken for these or "
      "ever will be."
      );
   CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "Simon Mallion/Unclieclive: the poor guy who "
      "has suffered through my DLL/Plugin creation "
      "process for PSXMemTool."
      );
    CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "And also having a few smiles and laughs along "
      "the way, it's always good to work with people "
      "around the world these days."
      );
   CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "Qhimm + Halkum: Shedding light on the darkness "
      "of the PSX memory card format Directory structure "
      "as well as the PSX save format data structure."
      );

Cyb

PS hello to everyone from early in the morning (yawn) I hope you have a great weekend.

PPS
I'll gladly add what new information I get to griever, just not sure how one would do that edit the header file with the structure information with comments?

[Nori]

Nice guy, btw it works with Japanese (PSX) version too!!!
*FF9-editor would be nice*

[Qhimm]

Code: [Select]

  CommentBox->Lines->Add(
      "Qhimm's well made Icon's and "
      "graphics are shamefully reused in this "
      "from his original Griever project "
      "release, no credit is taken for these or "
      "ever will be."
      );

Whoa, you didn't have to belittle yourself like that. Still, I appreciate the gesture. However, I deserve no credit for the PSX mem cards, that's all halkun's work. Besides, mem card credits probably belong better in the actual PSXMemtool program.

If you wish to share on your discoveries, you can either post information on these boards, or make the source code to your editor available (prolly the easiest way, but it does tend to make you a bit vulnerable). I personally will probably not reintegrate new things into Griever (I've pretty much abandoned further development on it), but it's always good to enrich the FF tech knowledge base.

[Cyberman]

Whoa, you didn't have to belittle yourself like that. Still, I appreciate the gesture.  However, I deserve no credit for the PSX mem cards, that's all halkun's work. Besides, mem card credits probably belong better in the actual PSXMemtool program.

Oh I'll put shamefully in quotes it's my sense of humor.

Well for testingl I use the information in my DLL application testing program (which is also helpful in finding things changed in location etc).  It's been invaluable in stuffing the information into the original program.

If you wish to share on your discoveries, you can either post information on these boards, or make the source code to your editor available (prolly the easiest way, but it does tend to make you a bit vulnerable). I personally will probably not reintegrate new things into Griever (I've pretty much abandoned further development on it), but it's always good to enrich the FF tech knowledge base.

I have VC.NET as well (mumble) I can add information to the structure information and I suppose it can be made a seperate download (with appropriate disclaimer).  Or I can stuff it in a post here, either way.

I would rather not put up source at the moment, it's still being cleaned up though heavily commented (understatement it has more comments than code).  It still needs clean up.  It's also written in BCB not the favorite flavor of people writting DLL's.  

Maybe someone will patchup Griever with the added information too. I hope so.. although I could never get it to work to be honest (hehe). That was why I ended up making it.  I figured I'll just do some cut and paste... after a few hours I stoped the cut and paste nuked that project and started clean just using the information from the code. Then I got the idea for Editor Plugins. Which that's all this is just a DLL that plugs into PSXmemtool.

One thing about the CRC generation code although it works fine, I have slated to move that to a table based one just because I don't like having to generate a whole new table each time the game is saved (LOL).

btw it works with Japanese (PSX) version too!!!

It does? Hmmm... stupid question.. do they use Kanji or English characters in the Japanese version? I would think they would use SJIS and or Kanji though it might use too much resources to support Kanji.  I was all ready to add the SJIS to Unicode conversion code I wrote to it to add Japanese support.  The same can be asked of German and Italin versions of the game.  Anyone have a clue? do they use ISO encodeing? unicode 8?

I looked at a Japanese save and .. it looked normal so I'm still puzzled (grin).

Cyb

[Nori]

Oops well ohh yeah it does... just characters' names were off as well as gfs... neee I will check them later, but without any problems I have successfully edited characters' stats also gfs, cards and items *for ff8*... but I used ePSXe... tee hee ^^; furthermore, I have savedgames if you like to take a look just let me know!

[Cyberman]

I would appreciate a save file from the Japanese version, it would help me know what encoding they used for the names.  If it's decipherable that is.

PSX save location structure is such that.
? unsigned int unkown
unsigned SJIS_String[46]; <- SJIS encoded data.
unsigned IconPallete[16];
char IconData[128];
char SaveData[8192 - 256];

I can convert SJIS to unicode and if I have the Japanese langauge extensions added to my machine they'll show.  (other wise it will show as a ?).  I just need to know how Square encoded the Japanese characters. Which is likely to be beyond my abilities (can't read Japanese etc.)

Interesting side note, ALL FF8 nameable characters use 12 characters to store there name. This includes the Chocobo name and all GF's.  I don't know why they limit one to 8 characters in the game for Rinoa and Squall. though.  I suppose for kicks I could add in a name changing ability and see if the game will accept 11 character names.

[Nori]

Here: 128 KB, plus Dream World...
http://bin.mypage.sk/FILES/epsxe000.mcr

[halkun]

Japanese characters are commonly double-byte. They were probably just thinking ahead for localiazation this time.

[Anonymous]

Here: 128 KB, plus Dream World...
http://bin.mypage.sk/FILES/epsxe000.mcr

In the save you gave me .. questions of course.
1: Did you use the default names? <IE equivalent of squall rinoa etc>
2: How many symbols are there for the following names?
a: Squall
b: Rinoa
c: Angelo

from looking at the save there are 4 for squall 3 for Rinoa and 5 for Angelo
If this is the case they didn't use 2 byte encoding.. and what the encoding is might require someone from Japan to figure out (grins).

When naming a character on the Japanese version how many possible symbols do they allow you?

Cyb

[Nori]

1: Did you use the default names? <IE equivalent of squall rinoa etc>
*yupp*
2: How many symbols are there for the following names?
*what do you mean by that?!*
In Japanese? or ???

When naming a character on the Japanese version how many possible symbols do they allow you?

English/Japanese/Symbols!!!

[Terence Fergusson]

IOW, less than 255.  (As expected)

It's very very rare that any of the 'usual' Japanese standards are used in stuff like this.  (You'll note that the US version of FF8 certainly doesn't use ASCII encoding)

Kanji is only very very rarely allowed for players to use in names, and that's the main reason the double byte encoding standard was created.  Otherwise, you only need about 82 symbols for all katakana, 81 for all hiragana (not always used for naming), 26 or 52 for roman characters (depends if lower case letters are allowed; usually is), and that leaves you with a minimum of about 41 characters left for symbols (more if you dropped hiragana and lower case romanji).

For the record, the only games I've seen thus far that allowed kanji to be entered were FF6j (and only for Cayanne's Sword Techniques) and Radical Dreamers (which has a rather horridly large naming screen).

[Nori]

Heyyy Cyb,
Okay I took snap-pics of
Katakana,
Hiragana,
English...  for FFVIII Japanese V.
PM or email me I will email ya one by one!!!

[Anonymous]

IOW, less than 255.  (As expected)

It's very very rare that any of the 'usual' Japanese standards are used in stuff like this.  (You'll note that the US version of FF8 certainly doesn't use ASCII encoding)

Kanji is only very very rarely allowed for players to use in names, and that's the main reason the double byte encoding standard was created.  Otherwise, you only need about 82 symbols for all katakana, 81 for all hiragana (not always used for naming), 26 or 52 for roman characters (depends if lower case letters are allowed; usually is), and that leaves you with a minimum of about 41 characters left for symbols (more if you dropped hiragana and lower case romanji).

For the record, the only games I've seen thus far that allowed kanji to be entered were FF6j (and only for Cayanne's Sword Techniques) and Radical Dreamers (which has a rather horridly large naming screen).

Hmmm.. not being an expert at Japanese characters doesn't help!

As for the English encoding it was just scrambled ASCII so people couldn't hack the save states my guess. (IE they couldn't figure out the save format easily), thats one reason for the CRC check.  I know with FF7 they subtracted 0x20 from each character (fairly easy).  They did something more cute with FF8 I haven't bothered yet with FF9 though I suppose I could check out the FF9 save states sometime.  FF7 is next on my list of things to do (though Qhimm pretty much has done all the work) I'll just called it Qhimms ported FF7 plugin <laughs>.  Anyhow back to what we were talking about.  I was afraid they did something cute with the encoding.. Oh well All I need is the symbol to SJIS maping of the LEFT and Right byte in the sequence.  My guess is you are right.. no standard or even close to one.   Since I don't know many encoding standards for such fonts Japanese support might be rudimentary or just a direct <FF8> code to unicode maping and hope the person has japanese support installed on there machine.