Author Topic: FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?  (Read 20825 times)

The Skillster

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2281
  • Karma: 0
  • Loving every Final Fantasy
    • View Profile
    • Lazy at work
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #50 on: 2001-02-13 05:28:00 »
some pointers:
If youre having trouble munipulating ff7 in to controlling the midi output to mci, then try munipulating the mci instead.
Like try to patch it or some work around.

The SaiNt

  • Administrator
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1302
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #51 on: 2001-02-13 10:02:00 »
Daggsvere :What a sense of dejavu! I just visited the site 2 days ago by accident.

Srethron Askvelhtnod

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 965
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.srethron.cjb.net/
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #52 on: 2001-02-15 20:47:00 »
Sir Canealot: Going a bit fast are we? Let's take this one step at a time. First, we'll let whoever decides to do it take care of the MP3s. *Then* we can start with other things, like a DirectX layer for improved graphics, re-rendering the backgrounds, etc. Don't try to cram it down our throats all at once.  :wink:

Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #53 on: 2001-02-16 07:43:00 »
Not to dis courage anyone, but re-rendering the backgrounds is almost impossible. It would require the original source art from Square. I'm not sure if they are computer generated or hand drawn, but if they are hand drawn it would require a high resolution rescan of the image. If it was computer generated, then it would need to be re-rendered using whatever graphics program Square uses, and to do say, an 800x600 render at the quality they use, it would take lots of time and a fast PC. For example, some of the computer generated scenes in Toy Story 2 took 70 hours to render a single frame... How many different backgrounds are in FF7? Way more than that...

halkun

  • Global moderator
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2111
  • Karma: 20
  • NicoNico :)
    • View Profile
    • Q-Gears Homepage
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #54 on: 2001-02-16 08:57:00 »
The backgrounds were rendered with lightwave. And the even the people who ported FF7 to PC didn't have access to the original source art. I say just recombine the backgrounds from the 8x8 blocks and then use eagle graphics to expand it. The are 256 color after all. Then it'll loog without beeing blurry or blocky

-halkun


The Skillster

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2281
  • Karma: 0
  • Loving every Final Fantasy
    • View Profile
    • Lazy at work
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #55 on: 2001-02-16 13:45:00 »
good idea hulkun
would save the HUGE amount of disc space needed if it was rerendered.

ficedula

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2179
  • Karma: 40
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ficedula.co.uk
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #56 on: 2001-02-16 13:54:00 »
Sure, but anything would be better than what we've got.

If we get it running at 800x600 all the polygons look better, and any sort of stretching on the backgrounds would do.

Of course, nobody's willing to write the DirectDraw layer yet, so not happening so far...


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #57 on: 2001-02-16 21:46:00 »
What do you mean strech it out by eagle?
I know of a eagle you can set Zsnes to you the eagle gfx engine and it make sthe graphics look crapy. It nothing liek that is it?
And about the prerendereds as I said if we were to add more parts to the games I could probley get him to draw some we might be able to scan in and use. I havent seen him draw any thing like FFVIIs backgrounds but with enough time and effort he could probley do it(He can draw very well even when not trying). Of corse both of those are in short supply with him being in a mental home(Long story)


Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #58 on: 2001-02-17 09:52:00 »
While playing the game at 800x600 would make the polygons sharper, it would make the backgrouns look worse. I've found the best solution so far is to use my Voodoo5 and 4xFSAA. This makes the game look quite nice. There are far fewer jagged lines on the polygons with FSAA.

dagsverre

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://ffsf.cjb.net
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #59 on: 2001-02-17 13:58:00 »
How could you possibly make the backgrounds look worse at 800x600?

Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #60 on: 2001-02-18 05:48:00 »
Simple, take a 320x240 picture and try this:

View it at fullscreen with your monitor set to 320x240(this may require a program to set your monitor to that resolution)

View it at 640x480 fullscreen(you have to stretch the picture now)

View it at 800x600 fullscreen(again stretched)

Same at 1024x768, 1280x960, 1280x1024, 1600x1200, 2048x1536, 3200x2400.

You will notice that the image looks worse the more it has to be stretched.


Srethron Askvelhtnod

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 965
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.srethron.cjb.net/
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #61 on: 2001-02-18 06:53:00 »
IIRC, that was the problem with FF8PC. The original backgrounds were something like 256x256. All that was added during the conversion was some sort of filter.

[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited February 18, 2001).]


Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #62 on: 2001-02-18 07:34:00 »
The backgrounds in FF8PC are also 320x240. They just have a bilinear filter applied to them during the drawing of the scene.

The Skillster

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2281
  • Karma: 0
  • Loving every Final Fantasy
    • View Profile
    • Lazy at work
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #63 on: 2001-02-18 13:24:00 »
i have to add that the filtering made it even worse  :(
i see your point about strecthing.
but you missed the point. you have to strecth proportionally or risk having uneven pixels in the strecthed image!.
another way around a strecthed image is to have a border (like in ff7) to keep the porportion correct.
i hope that helps.

dagsverre

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://ffsf.cjb.net
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #64 on: 2001-02-18 14:51:00 »
Well explain me the difference between this:

a) 320x240

b) 640x480

b) 1280x960

(notice the 2x multiplication all the way, 240x2x2=960 and so on)

These three will always give the same results. At a) you represent one pixel in the image with one pixel on screen. At b) you simply use four pixels, all pixels are now four times smaller. So four pixels with the same color on screen show exactly the same as one pixel in a).

At c) it is the same, except you now use 4x4=16 pixels on the screen for each pixel in the image.

All these modes views the exact same, impossible to tell the difference. In theory, but if you have a screen like mine it interlaces at the lower resolutions so there still is a way to tell the difference...

And of course the 3D looks a lot smoother on the higher resolutions. And you have the *optional* ability to smooth the pictures out using some filter.

I agree that 800x600 it might look a little different, but smoothing filters will usually take care of that.


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #65 on: 2001-02-18 17:13:00 »
Im not sure about this streching buisness.
I was playing FFIX on ePSXe at 800/600 useing my TV-out.
Now would you agree that the back grouds and FMV would be streched from 320/240-800/600?
But at 800/600/32 They look just like they would on the psx. So why is that?
Can anybody explain that I have been wondering about that for a while.
Same with FFVII/VIII At 640/480. Played though the TV-out they would still have to be streched to 640-480 but they look what they look like on the PSX.



dagsverre

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://ffsf.cjb.net
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #66 on: 2001-02-18 21:40:00 »
Because 800x600 still has the same perspective (4:3) and the TV screen blurs the image so much that no additional filtering is needed...

If you played the PC version of the game I'm willing to bet that what you saw was in fact 640x480, since there are no way to change that. Even if you set the resolution to 800x600 on TV-out, the resolution is set to 640x480 once you start the game.

If you played with emulators, that's another thing...


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #67 on: 2001-02-19 03:37:00 »
If you played the PC version of the game I'm willing to bet that what you saw was in fact 640x480, since there are no way to change that. Even if you set the resolution to 800x600 on TV-out, the resolution is set to 640x480 once you start the game.

Sadly the pc version only exists in Joeys mind. Im useing ePSXe to play it. And the image isnt blured. Its almost as sharp as my moniter(Its a little blurry on the desktop but looks great in games). See my 32inch Hitachi Widescreen tv is designed to be used as a tv- and a monter.
It has a moniter jack on the back of it so all I would have to do is get a very long cable dig up the drivers and hey presto 32inch heaven. And if it means any thing its not running in 4:3 its being streced to 16:9(And it looks great as well)

I would have to say now with a futher 4 hours of playing  :) That the back grounds looked SLIGHTLY Worse. Im not sure about the FMV. Its looks the same ro maybe even slightly better. Yea thats why. Normally the TV is interplded or some thing. It has scan lines. On Tv-out there are none so that why the FMV looks better.

Ah im just rambleing on now aint I?
Who cares why?
Though im still intrested.
Maybe one of these days I will find out how texture compression works in full.


Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #68 on: 2001-02-19 05:42:00 »
The reason it looks better on TV is because TV's are interlaced. A computer monitor is not interlaced.

As for aspect ratios, yes, 320x240,640x480, and 800x600 are all 4:3, but if you display an image at a higher resolution than what it is intended to be displayed at, it looks worse. Take Grand Turismo running on a PC through Bleem. Look at the title screen while having Bleem run the game at it's default resolution. The title screen should run at 640x480(The title screen runs at 640x480 on a real PSX) and look good on a PC monitor. Then run with Bleem forcing it to 800x600 or 1024x768. It looks noticeably worse. This is because it has to supersample the image, and you see the edges of pixels that are normally at scanlines on the TV. The same for my example of stretching a 320x240 image on a PC.

BTW, there should be an option for your TV to make 4:3 input display in a 4:3 format instead of stretching the image. I don't like altered displays. Oh, and I work for Hitachi  :)


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #69 on: 2001-02-19 20:19:00 »
Whatever. SOme of that stuff that you said makes SOME sense.

And I dont like running any thing in 4:3 I Couldent cope with those huge blacks bard running down the screen. Any way the way the Tv streches it to 16:9 is bloody brilliant. There no loss of image quilitie what so ever.
And what do you do for Hitachi any way?
You make good tvs/ The one I have is several years old and it still runs like brand new.


dagsverre

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://ffsf.cjb.net
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #70 on: 2001-02-19 21:35:00 »
Well at least in Norway TVs are really 4:3. Except widescreens, but on those you *can* alter the aspect ratio.

Also you can alter the aspect ratio on all modern European non-widescreen TVs as well. Like on mine.


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #71 on: 2001-02-20 03:38:00 »
What do you mean at least in Norway?
Most tvs here in england happen to be in 4:3. It just so happens that I have inherited(from the Liveing room. My dad got a new 52inch rear screen projecter. Sigh Where to we get all this money from?)
A 32inch *Wide Screen* TV. It can run in 4:3 But It has black bars at the sid eof the screen. And I think the image its self look crapy. Whoa look at the time. Time for another 4 straght hours of FFIX   :)


And dagsverre you said earlyer in this topic that your monitor interlaces at lower resalutions. Do you mean black line across the screen like a TV? My Moniter does this is there anyw ay to stop it?

[This message has been edited by Sir Canealot (edited February 19, 2001).]


Reznor007

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/ninninetynine
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #72 on: 2001-02-20 06:17:00 »
I suppose it's a personal preference as to whether or not you want the image stretched to 16:9. I normally prefer widescreen(I am a DVD fanatic), but if the image is intended to be shown at 4:3 then I let it be shown that way.

The specific division of Hitachi I work for is HICAM(Hitachi Computer Products America). The area under that division I am at is Hitachi-OMD(Oklahoma Manufacturing Division). We mainly work on the Hitachi RAID-400 series of computer servers. I work in the PCB Quality Control department as an inspector. I have to check boards to make sure that they are soldered well. That involves looking at parts so small you can barely see them(tedious work).

Most TV's everywhere are 4:3 format. Only newer widescreen TV's are different. They use a 16:9 ratio.

Oh, and bout the interlacing, it's actually better to have it at low resolutions. It helps to make things look better at low res, higher resolutions need to be non-interlaced though.


Sir Canealot

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 900
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #73 on: 2001-02-20 16:21:00 »
Well when you put my TV to auto it sets its self and 16:9. So I supose FFIX Was A :Designed for 16:9 or B:Has some thing in the code to run in 16:9. Puting it in 4:3 makes every thing look way to thin.

Oh and again about the interlacing is there any way to turn it off? Its a bloddy pain when I play FFVII/VIII though the monitor.

Hmm Staring at computer boards all day musent be fun. I know that one loose solder can screw it all up. We Had a repair man in to repair the TV I have now.(It was switching its self off) And the repair man said he just had to solder some thing on the main boards. Thats it all that truble for one loose solder. sigh....


The Skillster

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2281
  • Karma: 0
  • Loving every Final Fantasy
    • View Profile
    • Lazy at work
FF7 - Part 1: Is it even possible?
« Reply #74 on: 2001-02-20 16:27:00 »
hell, you guys sure know how to throw a topic off topic, hey?