Author Topic: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?  (Read 8256 times)

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #50 on: 2016-07-25 20:01:59 »
If I had time to spend on it I would just get the field module 100% working, but I'd probably also design it so it can work with FF7-9 since a lot of the core functionality is the same.

Zervox

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #51 on: 2016-07-25 20:54:48 »
Remember: All the data conversion must be done programmatically because we can not distribute converted data!  This means each user will have to have a program that converts all the original data to the XYZ's Engine Data and the conversion can not be done by hand.  Unless off course the engine can use the original data.

You do not need a program for every user ,this can and is done in alot of other reverse engineered engines so that when you start up the project for the first time it converts data.
This does of course rely on either having preconverted scripts for each asset(lets say field scripts, and yes these hand converted scripts you can distribute) or something which can interpret and convert then save.

some reversed projects I've seen does both, it will emulate and use original scripts or assets until converter works fully/a replacement script(can be done 1 script or 1 asset at a time) is made.

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #52 on: 2016-07-26 13:36:12 »
I have been told that I can not distribute converted scripts even if I have hand converted them ...

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #53 on: 2016-07-26 17:23:42 »
Even if you could whats the point with out the sounds/fields etc? Also its a grey area and would get you C&D'ed for "porting" the scripts.

Zervox

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #54 on: 2016-07-26 18:35:16 »
I've yet to see any of the projects I am following that reverses other games to see a C&D for converting/porting scripts to emulate/mimic/alter behaviour.
Afterall FF games does not have any ownership of the behavior their scripts executes, only the code directly(which only prevents you to copy paste, which you aren't doing when you convert by hand, you simply mimic the behavior of the script), if you write something which does the same thing, they really can't do anything about it.

paul: the point is that sounds,fields and models when formats are fully known can be automatically converted on first run per user(this is allowed as you aren't distributing anything) usually this is done by other projects by asking the user to find/select original game data folders/archives.

and even if converting opcodes/scripts might be hard there are multiple cases where this is also converted, even per script based scenarios.

Most countries I can think of also do not allow patent or directly copyrights code in that sense(unless you actually copied and distributed the original file, which you aren't doing).
I'd seriously start to wonder how people who only does texture touch ups for games(not making new similar ones, but only tweaks the original textures) is able to distribute their versions, afterall this to me seems to be exactly what modders who only increases the resolution of the original FMV/Textures(or uses original and adds filters to them then distribute them), details of models are doing.

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #55 on: 2016-07-26 18:52:03 »
For games that are still being sold this does happen, not distributing any data is the only way to be 100% safe, unless of course you are a well vexed lawyer :P

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #56 on: 2016-07-26 20:52:44 »
Didn't Eidos themselves published a fully workable FF7.exe? So won't it be legitimate to share code of it?

Zervox

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #57 on: 2016-07-26 22:04:07 »
For games that are still being sold this does happen, not distributing any data is the only way to be 100% safe, unless of course you are a well vexed lawyer :P

You aren't distributing any data belonging to them, you are distributing converted code to make the data work, still requiring every user to launch it and link to original data folders/archives for the conversion to convert original data that they already have by having bought the game.

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #58 on: 2016-07-26 22:23:41 »
You aren't distributing any data belonging to them, you are distributing converted code to make the data work, still requiring every user to launch it and link to original data folders/archives for the conversion to convert original data that they already have by having bought the game.

So was the chrono trigger remake, 100% remade assets/scripts/code and they got C&D. Its a heavily grey area and the same laws don't apply everywhere. Might as well just make it use the original data files rather than risk being shut down IMO.


Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #59 on: 2016-07-26 22:52:10 »
I totally agree with Paul, we can't take such risks.  It's better to use original scripts because it's not possible for a program to covert them to a higher level language automatically and distributing files will get us shut down and we can't have that happen.

Zervox

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #60 on: 2016-07-27 01:01:45 »
"100% remade assets/scripts/code"
Great so they resorted to plagiarism. they full duplicated every scene and behavior and required no original copy ownership for a user to play it, see the problem here?

"It's better to use original scripts because it's not possible for a program to covert them to a higher level language automatically"
Yet there are projects which do, some of the Fallout 2 reverse engineered projects actually do support converting scripts.

It's fine not wanting to take risk to be 100% sure, but the Chrono Trigger case was quite obviously outside of the gray area and inside the area of just blatantly copying it.

I am not going to argue which is better and what to do, just wanting to state that there are ways of doing things which is perfectly legal, and as I said, won't work unless a good sum of planning is done beforehand.

It's still a discussion which I enjoy.  :) ;)
« Last Edit: 2016-07-27 01:03:29 by Zervox »

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #61 on: 2016-07-27 11:57:39 »
"It's better to use original scripts because it's not possible for a program to covert them to a higher level language automatically"

It is possible, its not just not easy to do since it means writing a decompiler that produces structured code.

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #62 on: 2016-07-27 14:05:41 »
I don't know of any decompilers that produce structured runnable code at the moment.  IDA code is not compilable.  So is Boomerang code not compileable.  However I know that paid services that decompile code and manually fix issues do work.

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #63 on: 2016-07-27 16:09:53 »
Try almost any C# decompiler, native code is another matter. And simple script byte code is certainly decompilable. And the topic here is the simple script byte code, I already said many posts ago that decompling native code is a lost cause :P

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #64 on: 2016-07-27 20:40:26 »
It is possible, its not just not easy to do since it means writing a decompiler that produces structured code.

Maybe you should get back to work on that?? :):)

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #65 on: 2016-07-27 21:07:26 »
True that or Akari engine 0.14

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #66 on: 2016-07-28 07:01:01 »
Maybe you should get back to work on that?? :):)

I guess because I lost interest due to needless complexity. :)

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #67 on: 2016-07-28 12:42:17 »
Complexity about which part?  Needless, can we make it simpler the decompiler?

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #68 on: 2016-07-29 11:10:37 »
The whole decompiler itself is a needless complexity VS using the original file formats directly.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #69 on: 2016-07-30 04:25:39 »
On the bright side, a lot was reversed in the process. I imagine there is still quite a bit to be discovered

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #70 on: 2016-07-30 20:43:54 »
I agree with Paul, converting the data was bad idea,  using the original would allow rapid development focussing on the mechanics and cool parts and not files and directories :)

Hellbringer616

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #71 on: 2016-07-30 21:14:58 »
OpenMW went the original data route, seems to make the most sense to me. They have support for other formats too, so that would fix issues with limitations of the old format would it not?

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #72 on: 2016-07-31 00:09:05 »
I'm thinking maybe making the github repo a compliable version of the 0.14 source might be a good idea. Probably the code will need modernizing now though. I'm making the assumption that implementing the missing field opcodes is enough to get it working.

Tom

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #73 on: 2016-07-31 11:14:58 »
First of all we need to get the game working, we shouldn't even be talking about bypassing the games limitations until it works as the original did.  In the 0.14 version most op codes are implemented, enough to run the first mission

paul

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Re: [FF7 PC] Full source code reversing project?
« Reply #74 on: 2016-07-31 13:57:41 »
Seems 0.14 source is no where to be found