Author Topic: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?  (Read 2538 times)

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At the sector 5 reactor, president shinra recognises cloud, which should be impossible given that cloud was never in SOLDIER and was just a nameless infantryman. And nothing in the game suggests that Cloud had specifically let Shinra know he was ex-soldier and joined up with avalanche.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #1 on: 2016-09-29 19:42:11 »
Because cloud wears the uniform of Soldier. Which nobody else does recognize at Shinra.

Tekkie.X

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #2 on: 2016-09-29 21:55:23 »
He could be mistaking him for Zack, similar height and build, spikey hair and the bright blue eyes which he does mention.

NFITC1

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #3 on: 2016-09-30 03:24:27 »
He doesn't know Cloud. He just said "former SOLDIER" because his eyes were glowing. It's likely that there were reports of a SOLDIER working with AVALANCHE since those infantry were so eager to shoot him on sight.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #4 on: 2016-09-30 13:02:48 »
This was discussed by me and Luksy, because I was sure it had to be a translation error. It is made worse in the original localization if I recall.  It's already been discussed somewhere else, but basically you are left with these 2 options:

1. Shinra personally congratulates all people who make it into Soldier, and Cloud is somehow expecting that he'll be remembered (Cloud says "long time no see", which is the main offending line). Shinra then tells him he can't be expected to remember every Soldier's name unless they are as great as Sephiroth.  In other words, he meets every new member of Soldier for a very brief time to give out a medal or something.

2. This is forced exposition. The writers needed a way to introduce Sephiroth into the conversation.  Think about it... how else were they going to get him mentioned here otherwise?

Personally I think it's probably both - but mainly number 2. The writers wanted to introduce Sephiroth here and had to manufacture something that seems very out of place. It's clearly bad exposition because no-one buys for a second that Cloud would say that out of nowhere. Which is why this thread exists :P

I guarantee you that this exposition will be left out of the remake, because they'll have a rethink.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-01 01:34:22 by DLPB »

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #5 on: 2016-10-01 14:44:50 »
Well at that point, Cloud had his memories jumbled up and his SOLDIER memories were from what Zack said. Since Zack knows President Shinra, Cloud "knew" him too which is why he said that line.

Probably the best explanation was that President Shinra assumed that Cloud was ex-soldier based on his eyes and maybe whatever info he got about AVALANCHE. Or maybe its a remnant of an early script.

President Shinra assuming that Cloud is Zack wouldnt make sense because Zack was used as an experiment before being killed (which again doesnt make sense because if first class was so rare and valuable, Hojo wouldnt have been allowed to do that) and never "quit".

Theres one continuity error though, in the original FF7 game, SOLDIER first class wasn't as big of a deal as the other games like Crisis Core made them out to be, where 1st class is incredibly rare and everyone knows them by sight/name. Cloud claiming to be ex-first class would have fallen apart really quickly if first class was that famous because nobody would know who he was and Tifa would have wanted to look up info on Cloud (which would have been really easy if first class was as famous as Crisis Core made them out to be).

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #6 on: 2016-10-01 15:53:25 »
There's absolutely no issue with shinra knowing cloud is an ex soldier.(even though he is not) His eyes and the reports from people concerning his past make that plausible. The issue is bad writing in that cloud is expecting to be remembered when he simply wouldn't. It's been done to shoehorn in sephiroth exposition.  There is no way anyone in Cloud's position would say "long time no see" as if they were best buddies with the president. If you really want to stretch it and make a poor excuse you can maybe just say that clouds head is knackered and he is delusional.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-01 19:51:37 by DLPB »

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #7 on: 2016-10-01 20:33:40 »
I've never played Crisis Core, but doesnt that make 1st class SOLDIERs to be super famous? Cloud at this point has his memories merged with some of Zack's so he could be expecting to be remembered. If Zack ever met President Shinra and mentioned it to Cloud, that might explain it as well.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #8 on: 2016-10-01 20:41:56 »
The original game makes no claims that people in Soldier are super famous—and Shinra explains that he wouldn't remember a Soldier's name unless they were as great as Sephiroth. It's possible they get some notice (Tifa asks Cloud if he will make the headlines, and he says he will try) - but not to the point of being on first name basis with the president. It has nothing to do with Zax or Cloud.  If you switched Cloud with Zax in this scene, it would still be ridiculous to say "long time no see" as if they are best buddies being reunited.  It's just quick and poor writing to bring Sephiroth into the discussion. It would have been better if they just didn't use the silly "long time no see" line at all. But if you do that it becomes very difficult to work a way of bringing Sephiroth into the discussion.

Maybe

"Oh, you're the Soldier. The one that joined this Avalanche or whatever.  Tell me, traitor, what is your name?"

"Cloud!"

"Well, I can't be expected to remember every Soldier's name. You would have to be another Sephiroth."

It's still crap - but at least it doesn't make it sound like Cloud and President Shinra meet up for a drink now and then :P
« Last Edit: 2016-10-01 20:51:58 by DLPB »

NFITC1

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #9 on: 2016-10-02 01:54:08 »
Crisis Core made 1st class SOLDIERs to be big deals. At least the three that we meet are and we don't even hear of another until Zack is promoted.

Somewhat contrary to this, we meet first class SOLDIER enemies somewhat late in the game so there are bound to be more.

August

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #10 on: 2016-10-04 09:34:24 »
Admittedly I've never had a problem with this exchange in any version. The intent seemed to get through just fine. Going by the dialogue, President Shinra clearly knows nothing of Cloud beyond the news of an ex-SOLDIER joining Avalanche. Likewise, Cloud doesn't necessarily expect Shinra to remember him; the familiar greeting simply makes clear that they've met before (or so he thinks). A similar exchange happens minutes later with Reno in the slum church, except this time Cloud slips up.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #11 on: 2016-10-04 09:45:15 »
No, the second time is completely different. That is an exchange where Cloud's inner-self is prompting him to remember that he does know who these people are (at least that seems to be the overwhelming explanation given the other occurrences of his inner self).  It is not any kind of "slip up". It's not remotely related.

Quote
#xy 168 128
{CLOUD}
“I don’t know who you are,
  or where you’re from,but…”
------------------------------
#xy 168 128
{CLOUD}
“Or do I?”
------------------------------
#cy 64
{GRAY}I believe you do. <<<<< this is the real Cloud.
------------------------------
#xy 176 128
{CLOUD}
“Oh yeah…
  I do know you.” [as in 'know you are from the Turks' very likely. Not "I know you are Reno"]


The Shinra dialogue is flawed, imho. It's flawed for the reason mentioned - Cloud states "Long time no see" [and it's the same meaning in japanese too] - a greeting that is only used when people are on first-name basis with one another.  You do not go up to people you do not know using that dialogue. Nobody would. The only reason Cloud does is entirely due to bad writing - probably deliberate here as I said to shoe-horn in Sephiroth. Even Cloud (thinking he is Zax) wouldn't suppose that he is on first name basis with the president.

Even if Shinra does meet every Soldier briefly, the writing as-is does not give that impression at all. Even the dialogue that exists shows that Shinra doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sep.  Writers are not perfect.  :P

« Last Edit: 2016-10-04 10:32:04 by DLPB »

August

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #12 on: 2016-10-04 20:45:07 »
What I mean by the Turks scene his that memory falters for a moment, an inversion of how he falsely remembers meeting the President, only this time his inner Cloud corrects him. And I'm guessing the Japanese version of that expression has a stricter use, but this being English it could be taken to simply mean "we met before". Maybe that's all the change that's needed.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #13 on: 2016-10-04 20:51:27 »
I agree that his memory is knackered; the issue isn't that.  The issue is that he thinks he's on first name terms with the president - which he would not. There's nothing leading up to it and nothing after it that allows for that jump in logic. As I say, even if you factor in that he thinks his life is Zax's, it does not make any sense. I remember a few times thinking "huh" at the scene. I even took this to Luksy, the Japanese translator for the retranslation project, because I was sure it had to be some sort of mistake.  The very fact I did that—and that this thread is here—should prove the exposition is bad - even if one can find an excuse for it. I just don't buy it. The writers can get away with it because we can just say "Yup.  Cloud is bonkers." but it doesn't really satisfy scrutiny. It's a small thing anyway - there are far bigger issues with FF7s story as a whole, but, thankfully, it's mostly a well-written and clever fiction.

The OPs question is explainable - President Shinra has heard reports about a rogue ex-Soldier joining Avalanche and now he sees Cloud with blue Mako eyes talking about a time they met.  My issue with this exposition is a different and worse one.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-04 21:14:48 by DLPB »

August

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #14 on: 2016-10-04 21:59:32 »
Does that expression truly depend on being on a first name basis with the other party? If so, then perhaps they should have used a different choice of words - although who knows what the writer truly intended.

On the other hand, I think this exchange had to happen in some form even if Sephiroth was never created. Being Avalanche's first encounter with the President, players would have found it strange that the presence of one of Shinra's former elite troop passed by without comment. The exchange makes clear that yes, the President is aware of the traitor, and no, he doesn't remember or care the slightest bit about Cloud himself. With that out of the way, they don't need to bring it up in subsequent events. The opportunity to hint at Sephiroth again is a happy bonus.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #15 on: 2016-10-04 22:01:42 »
Yeah. If you go up to someone and say "It's been a while" "long time no see"  you know the other person and they know you. The Japanese is pretty clear on it from what I can gather.

If they wanted to convey that he'd only met Shinra at some sort of inauguration ceremony, then they needed to make it far clearer.




August

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #16 on: 2016-10-05 05:24:34 »
"We meet again, Mr. President" would probably do the job just as well then, much like how Aeris greets Cloud shortly after. It doesn't convey that it's been a long time like the original, but that's not a big deal.

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #17 on: 2016-10-09 04:29:30 »
Maybe the original intent was for Zack to have met Shinra? Does that ever happen in Crisis Core?

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #18 on: 2016-10-09 04:58:33 »
It wouldn't matter if it did.  It's nothing to do with what Zax did or did not do.  All Soldiers probably meet Shinra at some point very briefly (we can suppose) - but that will not explain away the poor dialogue stated above.  I know I'm repeating myself, but that's as simple as this gets without complete conjecture or retconning. It is poor dialogue and poor exposition - the latter rather deliberately so. This is a writing problem because this is a fictional and imperfect story.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-09 05:02:17 by DLPB »

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #19 on: 2016-10-09 06:30:41 »
How is it a writing problem if :

-Zack knew Shinra well enough to address him familiarly

-Cloud "remembers" this and reacts accordingly

Obviously at this point square had not filled in all the details and Zack was only a minor background character. They probably weren't thinking that far enough ahead.
« Last Edit: 2016-10-09 06:32:25 by Question »

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #20 on: 2016-10-09 06:38:48 »
Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax.  It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue  that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's.  So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.

Again - it's poor writing.  That's all it is.  Even if they retcon it and show Zax toasting drinks in Shinra's office it will be poor writing.  It is a conversation designed only to bring Sephiroth up. There isn't any other reason. There isn't any other explanation.  If you give me enough time to conjure up reasons, I can make believe that the Midgardsormr met Shinra and played chess with him once upon a time over a luxurious meal in his office.  There comes a point where you just have to accept that the writers either didn't notice this was an issue, or did and didn't care. 
« Last Edit: 2016-10-09 06:46:42 by DLPB »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #21 on: 2017-03-22 07:08:39 »
Couldn't all this be explained by Shinra touring Hojo's lab while Cloud and Zack were being experimented on, before they escaped. Which would be why the president almost recognizes him, and why he (with parts of Zack's non zombie state memories) recognizes him back.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #22 on: 2017-03-22 07:13:00 »
That is still conjuring up plot that doesn't exist in the game to explain something that is purely lacking writing. See my post above.  We can create any scenario we want - if we choose to.  Plus I don't think your explanation is really all that believable given the dialogue that already exists.

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #23 on: 2017-03-22 14:13:10 »
It doesn't seem that farfetched to me that President Shinra would have seen the experiment seeing as Hojo was just appointed by him, or at least getting a briefing with a file with both of their pictures, we do see them nonchalantly discussing "breeding" Aerith later. Not even to mention the place that the experiment took place was the SHINRA mansion.

For all we know Shinra just saw the pic of Tifa, Sephiroth and Zack after they replaced the town, and see's Zack's uniform/buster sword and mistakes him for him for a second. And then thinking back on the picture, regardless of if you are the extra soldier or not, he wouldn't remember your name too "unless you had become Sephiroth"

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #24 on: 2017-03-22 18:51:58 »
OK. I'm done.  I'm not going to repeat myself a fifth time :P

If we go down the road of inventing writing that isn't there, then literally anything can happen and anything can make sense.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-22 18:53:34 by DLPB »