Author Topic: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?  (Read 3582 times)

hian

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #25 on: 2017-03-24 08:33:33 »
Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax.  It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue  that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's.  So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.

Apparently, according to the canon as established by the compilation, Cloud is apparently not basing stuff on what Zack told him - rather the Jenova cells are apparently feeding him memories from Zack. Apparently Jenova can read minds, and there's some collective shared consciousness bullcrap going on between people with Jenova cells.

I'm not trying to take away from your overall point, or condone this contrived plot-addition, but this is apparently the case, and the explanation for why Cloud seemingly remembers stuff he wasn't there to witness, or had no reasonable way of knowing.
I say apparently a bunch, because as anyone with half a mind realizes, that is a dumb reason, SE's established canon or not.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #26 on: 2017-03-24 10:01:59 »
Haha yeah.  It's just a bullstrawberries excuse after the fact.  I always think it's even more desperate when the game company or original writers do it, too.  Kojima is a master of bullstrawberries after the fact.

RascalQueen

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #27 on: 2017-03-27 16:03:00 »
I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game - that's how Reunion works, and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater - he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation).  That's in the Ultimania.

'Long time no see' is definitely rather informal as a greeting, but Cloud is also rather flippant and aloof in general at this point in the story.  It could just be that he's greeting the president informally out of a lack of respect.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #28 on: 2017-03-27 16:26:26 »
That isn't the same as reading their minds by a long shot, though.  Nowhere is that made clear in the game. And does it have some sort of range?  When you start asking questions like those, there really isn't an answer. Cloud states quite clearly that he based his fake life on stories told by Zax. It still doesn't matter, even if mind reading was there, because the writing is still poor.  :-D :P

No one says "long time no see" to someone they have never met. It is used to mean you have met someone before - and usually numerous times.


Anyway, we're going around in circles.
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=17169.msg244372#msg244372

Why can't it just be poor writing?  Why does every inconsistency need an iron clad alibi?
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 11:00:19 by DLPB »

hian

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #29 on: 2017-03-29 11:31:44 »
I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game

Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.

- that's how Reunion works,

Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)

In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.

and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater

That's not at all how Sephiroth appears outside of the crater. The Sephiroth you encounter outside the crater is the Jenova that broke out of Shinra building taking on Sephiroth's form.

- he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation).  That's in the Ultimania.

Where in the Ultimania is that? Even if it was though, the problem is that the Ultimania guide was released September 9, 2005.
Whatever in that guide has no bearing on whether or not something was thought up when the game was first made and released, and has no bearing on this discussion since this is a discussion on what was intended with the original not about what has been made the case post hoc through compilation ret-cons, which it is likely to contain given it was released only days before Advent Children, likely as a part of the FFVII compilation initiative.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 11:33:29 by hian »

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #30 on: 2017-03-29 11:36:41 »
Hian is right.  Unfortunately, this thread is still going because, for some reason, people cannot accept the writers are fallible.  It's the same with nearly every single fiction that has a fanbase.  I hardly ever hear "Yeah, the writers didn't think that far ahead" or "It's a plot hole."  It's always some bizarre workaround created by the fanbase.  It's the unwillingness to accept that a favourite game or story can have flaws.  Even the greatest pieces of fiction have flaws or bad writing or lazy writing.

This is no exception. It's simply bad writing for the 1000th time.

I had a discussion with Covarr not long back about The Lord of the Rings.  I absolutely hate that Tolkien brought Gandalf back.  I think it was a terrible decision that undermines the fiction (the author of A Song of Ice and Fire, Martin, agrees). Tolkien decided that the main god would never let the allies fail and will cheat to make sure they win.  So, from his point of view, it's not a plot fault. But from my point of view, when you can just bring characters back from the dead - even stronger than before - it cheapens the fiction and tension.   A writer can cheat or be lazy or ignore problems. No matter how good the writer is.  It doesn't need fans to start doing their job.  If you are doing their job, it means that they didn't do their job.

I don't mind fan fiction that corrects issues and what not.  What I take issue to is the whitewashing of clear errors in writing as if they are not errors. Star Trek fans are the worst. They make me want to punch them. It's never bad writing - just a stroke of genius on the part of the writers to make us "read between the lines" and "join up the dots". Frequently using future stories to explain past ones. :P
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 11:55:39 by DLPB »

Sega Chief

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #31 on: 2017-03-29 13:56:49 »
Well, it's a contrivance; when you're writing something and what you want to happen doesn't have the prompt you need, that's when you either need to rewrite what goes on up to that point, re-do the entire the scene, or come up with something on the fly that triggers it to happen. A throw-away line can save a lot of time if it works, but they usually don't stand up to scrutiny.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #32 on: 2017-03-29 19:24:39 »
Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.
Multiple Sephiroth clones is exactly that. Sephiroth, with control of his large amount of Jenova cells(with? her consent) completely copies himself and imprints his consciousness on multiple other people with Jenova cells implanted.

Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)
Reunion is a calling between Jenova cell injected humans, which does whatever necessary to modify their behavior to make sure they all end up at Jenova. The reason Jenova is trying to change Cloud into Zack is to make another strong hero like Sephiroth to then manipulate, just like him. He wasn't always evil, he was a war hero at one point.
A)Zack and Cloud were both injected with Jenova cells, which gave Cloud mako poisoning. From Jenova's lifestream energy. They then traveled together for a long time giving plenty of time for Jenova to attempt to rebuild Cloud like Zack. At which point Zack died, and Jenova transfered her focus from Zack to Cloud.
B) I don't think Jenova's all there anymore. Either mentally or physically or spiritually. Cloud had to take Jenova cells with her planets lifestream energy and give it "experiances" to grow, as Bugenhamen explains. Which reawakens her when you come near, which in turn allows Sephiroth to find her and use a horribly mangled Jenova host turned sephy pupa(probably another of hojo's experiments that broke out and hurt itself) to kill president Shinra and carry her away.

In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.
Jenova is the one who started all this when she sensed the cells in Sephiroth being ripe for harvest for lifestream energy and caused him to do what he did in Nibelhiem to get in close proximity with him. She's the one who ferned with his mind, though we never learn who she replaced his memories with. Though when he first starts going crazy he thinks he's an ancient, so maybe its based off of one of them that died when she tried to conquer them.

JBedford128

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #33 on: 2017-03-29 19:26:16 »
Sephiroth/Jenova suggests in the illusion at the crater that the Jenova cells in Cloud created "Cloud" from Tifa's memories. While that wasn't true, I don't think there's much reason to think Jenova can't do that. For the player it alludes back to what Ifalna says in the recordings at Icicle Inn, about Jenova appearing as people's loved ones -- taken from their memories.

With that said, I thought it was a point in the original game that in Cloud's case it wasn't Jenova stealing memories. It doesn't have to be. Cloud didn't get his Nibelheim memories directly from Zack's memories. Cloud has his Nibelheim memories because he was there, with the blanks filled in from what Zack told him (I believe all scenes where Cloud wasn't actually there, Tifa also wasn't there so we don't have to believe his retelling of those scenes were 100% accurate because there's no one to call him out anyway). Jenova's involvement is that her cells "helps" Cloud patch together his mind, filling in gaps and somewhat influenced by Cloud's ideal (which Zack fulfilled).

The reveal Cloud was there the whole time explains why he can fairly accurately retell the events. If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 20:49:16 by JBedford128 »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #34 on: 2017-03-29 19:39:27 »
If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
Yes, but we do know she siphoned his build at least for sure. That's why Cloud is confused, even though he realizes Jenova is messing with his mind making him think he's SOLDIER 1ST CLASS, he still has the body of one. But he doesn't care bout that, he's gonna fight for the planet etc.

JBedford128

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #35 on: 2017-03-29 20:47:54 »
He has his strong build because:

"I never was in SOLDIER.[...]And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life[...]"
"Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."
"I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..."

The game's explanation is that is just what Jenova cells do.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 20:50:04 by JBedford128 »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #36 on: 2017-03-29 21:42:02 »
Yes, Jenova cells injected into humans allow their perceptions to alter their physical form. Sephiroth's sword skills and all his strength are probably stolen from the masters in Wutai he killed. Zack's strength is copied from Sephiroth's. But Cloud's is copied from Zack's.

Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending."

Cloud should not have survived the procedure. The only reason he did, is because A)Shinra Moved and resealed Jenova B)Cloud managed to hurt Sephiroth and toss him into the lifestream for x amount of time until he made his way to the north C)Since Cloud copied Zack, instead of having Jenova/Sephiroth in his head, he had Jenova/Zack.

That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control. That's who Sephiroth attempts to use multiple times to control you. That's why you don't turn into a mindless black cloaked zombie, but also why Sephiroth is able to call him out to get you to hand over the black materia while your unaltered form attempts to stop it.

The true Zack and Aerith remove Jenova from Cloud and dump him in mideel. How else did you get away from Sephiroth and Jenova and the Reunion? How else do you again travel back into the lifestream and it does a similar memory repair/transfer between Cloud and Tifa to restore Cloud.

Materia is literally the "Knowledge and memories of the Ancients in crystalized form" which means mako is at least partially memories, and if thats true, then memories themselves are mako, and if a rudimentary technological government can figure out how to introduce mako by exposure. The dying mother of an evil planet thousands of years old well versed in magic can easily move mako between hosts.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #37 on: 2017-03-29 21:43:33 »
It's probably best to use the retranslation here too, given the original game's problems:

Code: [Select]
{CLOUD}
“I never was in Soldier.”{NEW}
“The events from five years ago,
  all the stuff about Soldier,it
  was an illusion that I created.”{NEW}
“I left my village looking for glory,
  but never made it.”{NEW}
“I was ashamed of being so weak.
  Then I heard Zax talking about
  himself…”{NEW}
“I mixed his life with my own
  and created a fantasy.”{NEW}
“I’ve been trapped
  in it ever since.”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“An illusion?
  Sure had me fooled.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Physically,I’m very similar
  to someone in Soldier.”{NEW}
“Hojo’s Sephiroth-Copies are nothing
  special. The process used to create
  them is identical to the one that’s
  used on members of Soldier.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“You see,those who are a good
  prospect for Soldier aren’t just
  irradiated with Mako…”{NEW}
“Their bodies are actually
  injected with Jenova cells.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“For better or worse,only the
  strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}
“This has nothing to do with
  Jenova’s Reunion,either.”{NEW}
“It’s just that if the process is used
  on someone who’s weak-willed,
  like me,they lose themselves.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“A man born from Jenova
  cells,Sephiroth’s will,and
  his own weaknesses.”{NEW}
“That’s… the {CLOUD}
  that you all knew.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“The master of my
  own illusionary world.”{NEW}

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #38 on: 2017-03-29 21:46:28 »
The original game makes it clear that a person can be controlled if they are weak willed.  But this has nothing to do with reading a person's thoughts - and Cloud explains above exactly how his fake life came into being.

Plus, this still would not explain away the poor exposition.

Quote
That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control

That's absolutely not right at all. It's the real Cloud fighting the fake ego. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jenova or Sephiroth. This is made much clearer in the retranslation.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 21:55:48 by DLPB »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #39 on: 2017-03-29 22:00:22 »
So Sephiroth can copy his entire mind and plant it in a failed clone, using Jenova cells and the lifestream like wifi(while carrying chunks of Jenova cells only that project her). But the actual Jenova cells which caused Sephiroth to learn how to do this and behave like so can't do it on a very local scale with memories having to so with being in soldier first class only.

Just doesn't make sense.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #40 on: 2017-03-29 22:12:06 »
None of that happens.  Sephiroth doesn't plant any mind anywhere. The Copies go to the Reunion because they contain Jenova cells that want to be reintegrated into the whole.  A weak-willed person can be manipulated to go somewhere or do something - and the drive to head to the Reunion is great - but there is no planting of minds or anything else.

Sephiroth was an experiment to create the ultimate Soldier. Jenova cells, as far as I am aware, did diddly squat in terms of "teaching him" anything. And in the end Sephiroth's will was so great that he was able to supersede Jenova and make it do his own bidding.  At least, that's how the game reads.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 22:17:54 by DLPB »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #41 on: 2017-03-29 22:23:13 »
Sephiroth is locked in a materia crystal in the north the entire game, yet we see him multiple times, leaving the dead body of a weak failed clone. Not only that, but later in the game in the ancients temple, you see the effects, multiple copies of different consistencies and out of sync.

He's also talking about merging with Jenova, which is what he does after he finally calls meteor. Which counters the soul loss aspect, but turns him into a "weapon." You then weaken the Jenova part, and unaltered Sephiroth takes control one last time and allows you to kill him to end it.

Edit:
Sephiroth was also not made the same way Soldiers were. He was infused as a baby by Ghast. The rest were made as adults by Hojo. While I'll admit his will was so strong he almost became the main enemy, I still see Jenova as that.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 22:28:24 by stormstrife »

Covarr

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #42 on: 2017-03-29 22:26:00 »
Eh? Jenova is a Shapeshifter. The Sephiroth we see throughout the game is Jenova taking Sephiroth's form.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #43 on: 2017-03-29 22:26:17 »
As already explained by someone else, Sephiroth doesn't leave anywhere. Jenova is a shape-shifting alien that Sephiroth is controlling. The Sephiroth you see all through the game and are pursuing is Jenova. It broke out of the Shin-Ra building. From the point that Jenova escapes captivity, you are following Jenova being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the blood trail ends in the Shin-Ra building and the president is killed by Sephiroth where the blood trail ends - his floor.

What doesn't make sense is that clothing and the sword can be replicated.  But what else were the writers going to do here?  They had to ignore logic for that.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 22:28:46 by DLPB »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #44 on: 2017-03-29 22:55:48 »
No, Jenova headed to the north, leaving a few peices behind with the sephy pupa. When you see the Red soldier die, a Sephiroth copy is made from him and the peice of Jenova you fight when he drops it after it being "used up" and unable to be held by the soul form. The original Sephiroth pupa that killed the president with the masamune(which was probably in the shinra building) never even got on that ship. He killed the Midgar Zolom, got to Junon and found a mako/Jenova soldier that served his purpose and stuck the Jenova Birth arm in em, then went searching for the clone to make with Jenova Life/Death. There's a reason they're different names, Jenova gave him the instructions on how to build the soul needed, and the parts of her body you fight are built for those purposes.

All the Sephiroth clones kill themselves at the end of the Reunion. Right before you fight Jenova Death, the clone comments "You're Right. This is the end of this bodies usefulness" and disinegrates himself.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #45 on: 2017-03-29 23:08:10 »
I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but you are categorically wrong. What I and others have said isn't in question - and is simply the main plot of the game. You are pursuing Jenova all through the game. She is a shape shifting alien on her way to rejoin with all the other cells. Sephiroth is using Jenova to do his bidding. That's all.

More to the point, how does this help clarify the poor writing and answer this thread?

« Last Edit: 2017-03-29 23:12:49 by DLPB »

Covarr

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #46 on: 2017-03-29 23:32:20 »
stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.

When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.

As to why Sephiroth can control the other people with Jenova cells: It's because Sephiroth is stronger-willed than Jenova. He wasn't able to overcome it completely, but he corrupted Jenova's will into something that resembles a twisted hybrid of both their thoughts and desires. This effect lasted in Jenova past Sephiroth's death. Any control Sephiroth seems to have over these other dudes is in fact Jenova's broken mind controlling them.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #47 on: 2017-03-29 23:39:55 »
stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.

When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.
I'm not confused. I understand that. I'm pretty sure its actually Hojo who calls them clones, distorting the truth.

Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako AND Jenova cells to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, mako and Jenova cells were implanted in him.

A slightly more accurate term would be Jenova clones, which would include Sephiroth. But the correct term is Jenova Hosts.

You don't think I think Cloud shares any DNA with Sephiroth do you, or any of the black cloaked zombies do? No. We know they all have Jenova cells though, and this is what gives the ability to connect them, not Sephiroth.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #48 on: 2017-03-30 08:39:10 »
It's my turn now.
Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's. In fact it doesn't matter that this is the true Cloud until then. It could be anyone else which may look a bit like him to trigger the memory steeling from Tifa. And this is shown in the game AND it is stated that Cloud's memories are based on Tifa's, she had about him. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).
The memory steeling could also happen when Cloud meets Reno. At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are. It could also be that the cells did read Aerith's mind in scene of sector if the flash symbols a mind read process, but it also happens in Kalm before the first flashback, which could mean on the other hand, that it indicates the producing of fake memory on the base of Zax ones. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.

Guys please keep in mind the story was written while they developed the game. They had a rough concept of the Ragnarok tale but that's all. They probably started to make the story consistent but had hadn't the time for it. I would say, if I look how long Cloud is acting like Zax, they came to the point where Cloud meets Aerith. After that he is acting differently.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-30 11:24:50 by Kaldarasha »

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #49 on: 2017-03-30 11:30:44 »
Quote
Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's.

Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard.  Again, his actual memories have nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him.  Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him  believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him.  That simply never happens. Also, you will notice that Sephiroth is only able to manipulate Cloud when he is in close proximity.

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. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).

This entire scene is a metaphor for being in Cloud's mind. It's a clever device by the writers to show you something that is otherwise not physical. They don't "find" a memory.  They simply work out that Cloud was there all along and he realizes the truth. There is a similar clever scene that I like in Babylon 5, where Londo visits his own mind.

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At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are.

This is simply the real Cloud urging the fake Cloud to remember.  Also, when I say "fake Cloud", I am not talking about 2 different physical beings or two spirits or anything of the sort.  The closest you can come to it is split personality syndrome. The Cloud at the start of the game is using a fake persona because he was too ashamed at never making it into Soldier. He mixes what he has heard from Zax with his own memories to create a false persona.

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. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.

He was in there. He visited Niblheim as a normal soldier with Sephiroth and Zax.  He went into that room. He said he was never in the room as a kid—not when he returned to the village. Just because that scene is not revisited does not mean it did not happen. The scene at Midhir is concerned with different parts of his life. Visiting her room to read a letter is unimportant to the plot at that point.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-30 11:47:21 by DLPB »