Author Topic: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?  (Read 4303 times)

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #50 on: 2017-03-30 12:36:33 »
Quote from: DLPB
Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard.  Again, his memory has nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him.  Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him  believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him.  That simply never happens.

Quote from: Ilfana
“It took on the form of their
  dead mothers and fathers…
  Deceased family members…”

“To each it showed a
  ghost from the past.”

Quote from: Cloud
“I never did live up
  to being {CLOUD}.”
“I hope you meet him
  again someday,{TIFA}.”
Quote from: Cloud
“You see,those who are a good
  prospect for Soldier aren’t just
  irradiated with Mako…”
“Their bodies are actually
  injected with Jenova cells.”
...
“It’s just that if the process is used
  on someone who’s weak-willed,
  like me,they lose themselves.”

Quote from: Tifa
“…something was wrong.
  There was something strange
  about what you were saying.”
“…Not knowing things you should,
  and knowing things you shouldn’t.”

Btw. Cloud wasn't in here room.

Quote from: Cloud
“I felt so ashamed.
  I didn’t want anybody to see me.”

Get me right, I knew the text you refering and I see that you have a point there, but the game contradicts itself in that mattter.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-30 12:49:26 by Kaldarasha »

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #51 on: 2017-03-30 13:52:44 »
Code: [Select]
“It took on the form of their
  dead mothers and fathers…
  Deceased family members…”

“To each it showed a
  ghost from the past.”

We can infer slight telepathic abilities here in close proximity (assuming it isn't a plot hole) - but certainly not implanting memories onto others .  Jenova simply shape-shifted into people that looked like their relatives.

Code: [Select]
“I never did live up
  to being {CLOUD}.”
“I hope you meet him
  again someday,{TIFA}.”

He says this believing it, but It isn't true. We find out the truth at Midhir. This isn't proof of anything.

Code: [Select]
“…something was wrong.
  There was something strange
  about what you were saying.”
“…Not knowing things you should,
  and knowing things you shouldn’t.”

Again, this is consistent with the storyline. It makes total sense. Tifa did not know he was in Niblheim with Sephiroth - Cloud deliberately hid that knowledge from her by keeping his helmet on, remember? She thinks Cloud never came.  But he did.  All Tifa knows up until Midhir is that Zax came with Sephiroth and two ordinary soldiers.  She does not know that one of those ordinary soldiers was Cloud.

Code: [Select]
{TIFA}
“That’s right!
  It was Zax who came to
  Niblheim with Sephiroth.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“Then,where were you,{CLOUD}?”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“Did you see this?”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“I… saw it.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You did come.
  You did keep your promise.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You really did come
  when I was in a bind.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Sorry I…
  didn’t get there sooner.”


Tifa doesn't remember Cloud being there when he rescued her because she was unconscious. Later, Cloud and Zax are found alive and placed in the Shin-Ra Mansion for experimentation.  Tifa is rescued from Hojo by Zangan.  We never see this happen in the game; we only read about it from a letter, years later.

Code: [Select]
‘{TIFA},
 what has happened to our village?
 Was it all an illusion,or just a dream?
 No,it was neither. I remember clearly.
 I tried to save those still free of
 the flames,but I couldn’t muster
 the strength.{NEW}
 Burning with rage,I headed to
 the Mako reactor to kill Sephiroth.
 He was nowhere to be found.
 In his place,I found you,{TIFA},
 collapsed inside. I felt saving
 you was far more important
 than going after Sephiroth.{NEW}
 Inside the reactor,
 there were others still breathing,
 but I was only able to save you.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-30 14:27:13 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #52 on: 2017-03-30 15:23:38 »
I didn't say it that Jenova changes the memories of other persons but is able to alter the memories of its vessel. Let's assume that the happenings in Nibelheim are based entirely on what Zax told him (after all we don't see the battle between Cloud/Zax and Sephiroth). The character of Cloud is what he remembers from Zax appearance and what he knew from Tifa of him (for me it's clear that his character created by Tifa's memories of him, the reaction could happen because of her strong feelings for Cloud which may trigger the cells according to Ilfana). The real Cloud is sealed by the Jenova cells, which tries to get in contact with the current active one, when the situation fits or the cells are not very active.
Because Tifa's memories of him does only reach until Cloud leaves the village, Cloud uses the story he knows from Zax to fill the gap. This seems like a logical explanation to me with all the texts in mind we have had here.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #53 on: 2017-03-30 17:35:34 »
DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.

The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #54 on: 2017-03-30 18:17:51 »
Shin-Ra doesn't replace their memories. They are all actors playing the part of the villagers.
There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).
« Last Edit: 2017-03-30 18:22:17 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #55 on: 2017-03-30 18:25:27 »
DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.

The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?

That's really nonsense . The people with the normal mind are actors and the cloaked ones are copies. Only what we can say is Jenova can morph into people which are important to a person. Maybe that's why Jenova morphs into Sephiroth because it was an important person for the President?

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #56 on: 2017-03-30 19:21:46 »
There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).
I'm not gonna repeat myself about the Jenova Hosts. If I call them clones, and you can't connect what I mean, given thats the term used in the game, w/e.

On the other hand. I do not think they're actor's. There are 5 years between Nibelhiem and Midgar. Cloud is not suited to the Soldier program, yet still underwent it. Nibelhiem was destroyed, and needed to be replaced to stop questions. I don't think it's farfetched to think they could have used him to "seed" all the townies memories we see. The "normal" townies don't notice the black cloaks at all. Not only that, but its very obvious in one of the houses, they used to be a family, as there is a child black cloak.

Jenova cannot move under her own power, at least not well or fast. Otherwise Sephiroth would never have been needed in Nibelhiem or the Shinra Building and as soon as they dug her up she would have crushed the humans. She does not shapeshift. The“It took on the form of their dead mothers and fathers… Deceased family members…” is a legend written by the Cetra trying to explain the "Calamity from the Skies." Its probably explaining their loved ones getting captured in battles, returning in the bodies of strangers, so convincing it was like killing/being killed by the ghost of that loved one, where it may have cried and killed itself after or vice versa.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #57 on: 2017-03-30 20:47:20 »
Could please stay at what the game gives you instead of inventing wild theories?
Quote
Periodic Report For Professor Hojo

  1. Copy Activity

  Unfortunately,no Copies have
  left the village during this period.

  As previously reported,
  it would certainly appear that the
  Copies are sensing something.
  However,they only ever mutter
  the words ‘Reunion’ and ‘Sephiroth’,
  and show no desire to leave here.

  2. Classified

  A total of eight people have visited
  the village this period. Fortunately,
  none of them were aware of the
  incident five years ago. No-one
  has realized that the village has
  been restored to exactly how it
  appeared before the fire.

  The staff playing the villagers have
  also improved on their acting skills.
  There are no further issues to report
  at this time.

  End of report.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #58 on: 2017-03-30 22:05:32 »
Well, I can't lie. I've played the game over 30 times, and never found that or don't remember it. So I will admit, that this shows they are definitely actors.

I still do think Jenova can manipulate memories. And I just figured Jenova would allow her cells to be used as far spread as possible to enable as many hosts as possible. Like the old science fiction trope of some amazing tech actually being an intelligent alien species for mind control.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #59 on: 2017-03-30 22:39:46 »
The letter can be found in Tifa's (ex-)room.

If it makes the game logical for you, then it's fine. I like the interpretation of Brittenham. Not the interpretation itself more the idea he has about Jenova. It's that kind of depth a good written game should have. FF7 has a great story but is not well written. There are a lot of things which seems not well-conceived. I guess FF9 is exactly the opposite of that for me.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #60 on: 2017-03-30 22:40:29 »
You've played the original game with a poor localization.   But even the original mentions actors,I believe.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #61 on: 2017-03-30 23:20:16 »
Yea I looked it up, I never even realized there was a letter to Tifa there in the past either.

I never really thought about it, its just how I figured it always was. What exactly does Brittenham think?

I'd say for myself I think the Jenova we see is actually a Jenova Host Ancient, whos holding back most of her powers, and the only time we see Jenova's true form is right before Safer Sephiroth.

I'd also agree about the comparisons between 7/9. 7 has a lot of different idea's that are ingenious but aren't well integrated. Where as 9 has a clear lead creativity direction, and almost every part is polished and made better with lessons from previous games. Idk, 9 just doesn't have something though, that I personally find in 7 even though its my 2nd fav FF. Part of it has to do with materia and making any character do anything. Though 9's 4 party members, and learning abilities through equipment is very polished and much more FF like.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #62 on: 2017-03-30 23:40:20 »
Brittenham interpretation says that Jenova does control the whole of Shinra when they found her. Soldier, Makoreactors, etc were all part of the plan of Jenova to weaken the planet.
Here you can read it: http://cetraconnection.net/analysen-und-theorien/interpretation/brittenham/opening/

Do not take arguments of that for real, The Ultimania Omega: Final Fantasy VII has proven that a lot of it is false interpretation.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #63 on: 2017-03-30 23:41:47 »
It's also written after the fact. Only the original game and what the authors said at the time really counts tbh.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #64 on: 2017-03-31 00:30:30 »
It does make a weird sort of sense. If Jenova contains her own lifestream(from her planet), and can use that to infiltrate the planets lifestream, then she could have even been leading them to dig her up. And the way Sephiroth uses the lifestream I'd believe it. Not only that, how else did she get them to inject her cells into people, being the exact thing she needed to get back to conquering the world.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #65 on: 2017-03-31 15:10:54 »
That's just more total speculation on your part though. I can make up anything I want, too. How about Nanaki has the power to see into the future when he comes of age?  It doesn't make it right. You can't use external sources, other games, and things written after the fact to explain something in the original game. You certainly can't start making your own theories up. It stands or falls on what it explains or does not. There is no "Jenova's Lifestream". It doesn't factor in here at all - and none of this is on topic. :P
« Last Edit: 2017-03-31 18:04:09 by DLPB »

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #66 on: 2017-04-01 05:14:29 »
I'm not using anything but my own playing experiences to speculate, and thankfully "certainly can't start making your own theories up" doesn't apply to me. Because A) Fern you yes I can B) its 20 years too late to "start."

If you said Seto did what he did because he knew one day he would meet Nanaki. Then I couldn't argue that, the game doesn't say anything in the negative about that.

I have not used any external sources. I've never played any of the other "ff7 games," and honestly I've never been a part of any FF7 community because the fans of the game can be pretty offputting. Just because that guy got to similar idea as doesn't mean I'm wrong, or that I just copied him.

Fact:Shinra dug up Jenova, was led to believe she was an ancient, and was led to believe by injecting cells of it into people they could create ancients. But by who or what?
Speculation: Either Ancient Jenova Hosts left clues, or Jenova did it directly through the lifestream.

Fact: Bugenhagen tells us all celestial bodies have lifestreams and all lifeforms share a part of it. Jenova has lifestream energy, and its not from the planet.
Speculation: Meteor is Jenova's planet.

Fact:Planets make weapons when they are dying in as a last resort.
Speculation: Jenova is Meteor's last WEAPON.

Fact: Materia is the crystallized form of Ancients knowledge and memories.
Speculation: Memories are made of mako themselves, being a part of consciousness, not the body.

Fact: Sephiroth can send his entire mind through the lifestream because of Jenova cells, using it to control puppets from the north cave(usually around a mako reactor).
Speculation: Jenova can do so on a very local level without lifestream access, which is how I think she can transfer memories. In fact I think her power is being able to interact with the lifestream/mako energy while still alive.

Very much on topic.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #67 on: 2017-04-01 08:43:58 »
Quote
Fact:Shinra dug up Jenova, was led to believe she was an ancient, and was led to believe by injecting cells of it into people they could create ancients. But by who or what?

That's not a fact, that's interpretation. Shin-Ra was not led by anyone except by their own greed for power. The game isn't that complex regarding the motivations behind the acting. As example Shin-Ra was a weapon manufacturer company but who has fought against whom? The game doesn't tell much about this war. We also don't know if Jenova came with a meteor or not. Think on Lavos from Chrono Trigger, which came by his own. The devs hadn't made many thoughts on that

Quote
Fact: Sephiroth can send his entire mind through the lifestream because of Jenova cells, using it to control puppets from the north cave(usually around a mako reactor).
Even that isn't a fact. What we know is that he has the power to interact with his siblings. On the other hand it's also possible that Jenova is guiding the clones to Sephiroth, after all she is doing it with Cloud.

The game has plot holes as hell and that's why we get thousands of wild theories, because people tend to fill the holes with their own logic and wishes, me too. As much more it is important to look, what are the hard facts of the games.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #68 on: 2017-04-01 17:15:22 »
When Jenova was dug up, they thought she was an ancient. When they injected her cells into a human, they thought they were making an ancient. When Sephiroth reads through the materials in the Shinra mansion and goes insane, he also believes they're ancients.

But thats just not true. Its very obvious that Shinra went from a arms dealer to a mercenary group during the Wutai fight, and its also what made them rich enough to do the things they did.

We do know what Jenova came with, why do you think shes nicknamed "The calamity from the skies," what do you think the northern crater is?

There is no doubt Sephiroth is a puppet of Jenova's to me. The difference is, he's a willing host, unlike the Ancient Host we see in Mt Nibel who's holding it in statis. Sephiroth uses it to survive being tossed into the lifestream/losing half his body and then figures out how to use it to travel to the northern crater. All while Jenova is slowly eating at his brain, replacing cell by cell with hers, driving him different levels of crazy as time goes on.

The way I look at it is, Jenova is braindamaged after spending so long in statis, only the most basic instinctual functions work, until she get rebuilt in Sephiroth and he becomes the new main "Jenova."

On the point of the Reunion. Its not their physical bodies that are reuniting. Its the Jenova lifestream energy that they've "grown" with experiences being returned in their deaths. It's also not them picking her up on an antenna and zoning in on it, but them all doing the same thing because they're Jenova infected.

hian

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #69 on: 2017-04-02 16:41:56 »
I think it very unlikely that Sephiroth is a puppet of Jenova. Exhibit 1, the largest of Jenova cell-cultures is in Shinra building, yet Jenova breaks out, takes on Sephiroth's form and travels to where he is, in North Crater, which strongly suggests Sephiroth is exerting his will on Jenova, not the other way around.
Jenova has no reason what so ever to favor Sephiroth, or go to special lengths to facilitate what is ultimately in his best interest, not hers.
This is brought to crystal clear light with exhibit 2 - the fact that you kill Jenova prior to killing Sephiroth, whom is essentially acting as a shield trying to stop Cloud and Co from reaching Sephiroth, and when she dies nothing changes what so ever as far as Sephiroth is concerned. If fact, he doesn't even seem to notice or care.

Finally, although this is part speculation.
Fact : Jenova was based off of Carpenter's "The Thing", and the FFVII's concept stage of productions tied together with Parasite Eve, which features organisms that fit the theme of "The Thing" and are similar to Jenova.
Speculation : Jenova is not sentient. In fact, Jenova is kinda like a virus, the form of which we see in the game is probably just the last human/ancient host of it.
Jenova cells exert some kind of influence on an instinctual level through biological alteration, but Sephiroth having been born with it, and then falling through the life-stream absorbing the knowledge and power of the Ancients puts the virus in check, and uses it to further his own agenda, an agenda that is party influenced by the change in his nature as a result of having been born with Jenova cells to begin with.

Jenova being in control of Sephiroth just doesn't compute with what the game tells us explicitly though, just saying it makes even less sense thematically with what is arguably being implicitly stated too.

DLPB

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #70 on: 2017-04-02 17:07:29 »
I think the authors on record even back then as saying that is how it is.  It's also what the game shows.  Sephiroth is using Jenova. Almost everything points to that.

@stormstrife  You are making stuff up.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-02 18:18:17 by DLPB »

gjoerulv

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #71 on: 2017-04-02 18:35:49 »
The vagueness, and seemingly self-contradicting aspects of Jenova -I think- is deliberate by the writers. If you know exactly how an alien entity works within a story, there is a high probability of it losing its... um exotic flavor, and mystique for lack of better words (by "alien" I don't mean extraterrestrial, but "the unknown"). Which in turn can render the story rather mundane and lackluster. That being said, I like the idea of Jenova not actually being (subjective) sentient, rather some sort of parasite/hive mind/virus (pretty much what hian said). But that may as well be fan-fic from my side.

RascalQueen

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #72 on: 2017-04-02 19:13:07 »
Yeah my read of the Jenova situation is that Sephiroth is in command of Jenova, but that it's hard to tell because Sephiroth adopted Jenova's goals and motives for his own, with some adjustment.  Like, Jenova apparently had no interest in Meteor - it's Sephiroth who realized how Meteor could be used to accelerate Jenova's consumption of the life of the planet and thus allow him to do the same thing.  Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim and post-Nibelheim are practically different entities entirely.

stormstrife

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #73 on: 2017-04-03 02:40:36 »
The only reason I dont think Sephiroth is is control is because when he first goes insane, he thinks he's an ancient and his mission becomes to destroy the traitors to the Cetra, humans. When Jenova completely takes control, he learns she killed all the Cetra, and he isn't one, and keeps on forwarding the plan without a second thought.

Sephiroth has no idea who he's fighting. First its Shinra, then its humans as a prehuman, then its humans as an alien, then he's trying to become god etc. He's just being used.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-03 02:43:47 by stormstrife »

Kaldarasha

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Re: Why does President Shinra recognise Cloud at the reactor?
« Reply #74 on: 2017-04-03 06:34:16 »
Who actually said that Jenova is an alien? I believed it until recently, but I also believed that the Cetra were space travelers for a long time.

As it looks now, a person has created the Black materia and cast meteor. He/she probably created also a way to absorb the lifestream to get more power (the virus) and became Jenova. This theory is plausible since the conflict between nature and science is very present in the game. Still, it's a theory.