Author Topic: What the...? (Take a look, everyone) (Read 18763 times)

Qhimm · « **on:** 2001-04-02 22:12:00 »

I'm not the one to easily become annoyed, but this... see for yourselves.

I received a ...well, slightly disturbing mail today from a fellow calling himself Tuan Nhi. First of all, take a look on his http://www.ifrance.com/ffantasyworld/" TARGET=_blank>site , particularly the http://www.ifrance.com/ffantasyworld/app/ffeditor.htm" TARGET=_blank>Final Fantasy Editor , carefully taking in the layout of the page, the design on the actual program and the complete lack of links or crediting to a certain person. Feel free to download it and try it out, get the feel of it. The design, the control style, even the program icon. Check the About box, too. See which brave souls made this program possible.

Now, getting down to business and the hard facts of the case. From what I can tell, this editor was based on the Griever source code. I've traced my checksum routine, and it's very much intact in this FFEditor. Even some of the graphics are intact, like the icon and the character images, not to mention the owner-drawn control routines. The background-image in the main window/list has been removed/replaced, though the list code itself seems pretty much intact. I suspect large parts of the code are in fact entirely intact, like the checksum routine.

Now I'm not ranting about people using my source code; that's what it's there for. This person has even made some improvements over the old Griever program, adding limit break editing support. ...Or so I *think*, I can't actually test the editor since I don't have FF8 installed, and he removed the drag&drop support. Someone please fill me in on the changes in the program. The biggest improvement over Griever though, must be that this editor does not require MFC. Quite a feat, removing that (!)

No, what bothers me is that
1) He has removed any references to me and my site, in violation of what in the usage terms on my site. Regardless of whether he uses the code on it's own or just parts of it, this is standard netiquette.
2) He has not kept the project open-source, something I ask of everyone continuing my project. Programs like this are not meant to fuel some thief's ego.
3) He has blatantly stolen my web design; even the html style I use to code is mainly intact, he just messed around with the colors/fonts and changed the images on the left. This I would not tolerate even if he did credit me.
4) He's french, it's hard to read his site ^_^
5) He mailed me asking for help with the FF9 save files, is he completely stupid?! He steals my work, presents it as his own and expects me to help him?!

But it doesn't stop there, he has also asked me to link to his site. I am very tempted to do just that, it might reveal his theft to a broader public. But, before I reply or do anything, I thought I'd get your views and opinions on this. So...?

[This message has been edited by Qhimm (edited April 02, 2001).]

M0T · « **Reply #1 on:** 2001-04-02 22:43:00 »

Bastard......... Even I would steep so low.......... And thats not only because I cant program.
You should put a link to his site with a message saying something liker:
If you want to use my code without leaving it open source or displaying any type of acknoledgements to me you can become like this person. You can become French with you site hosted on some out of the way french server nobody is going to visit.

dagsverre · « **Reply #2 on:** 2001-04-03 00:48:00 »

I have a feeling he just isn't aware of it. Mail him and ask him to open the source, can't make things worse at least.

I asked JP from legacy to read the page, I don't know if this was there all the time or if it is something he added after reading this board:

Quote

Sachez aussi que l'idÃ©e est venue de Qhimm (et je le remercie), donc faites un tour sur son site : http://home.swipnet.se/mrdata82" TARGET=_blank>http://home.swipnet.se/mrdata82
It's mentioning and thanking Qhimm, indicating the above URL. Good enough?

Qhimm · « **Reply #3 on:** 2001-04-03 02:00:00 »

Uhm... I looked through most of his site all over again and didn't notice it. But then I noticed it in his FF8 FMV viewer, which is basically just my FF8FMV in french with a new layout of the controls. A program which I didn't even notice the first time (possibly due to my questionable knowledge of the french language). Still, he credits me, and although it may not be that much added functionality in it, it's OK by my book. Interesting though that he thanks me for my help when I've never talked to him about FMVs...

But that still leaves the everything else I mentioned, and I can't say I'm easily satisfied on this matter. I don't think I can spare him a shred of respect at the moment, and I'm usually known to always see the goodness in people.

In all honesty, I found an old mail from him dating back to june 2000, asking me for help with decompressing/compressing FF8 save games. IIRC, that was before I made my projects open-source, but I guess he found a way later on, since he started on a 'brand-new' FF editor...

I don't know if I understand this guy... he takes the FF8FMV code, translates it, moves the controls around, and calls it his own. But hey, he thanks me for giving him the idea. o_O

Really, I didn't think the made ego's that large anymore... And don't even get me started on the stuff he *didn't* credit me for...

I released the source in the spirit of sharing; to develop this type of programs further. I couldn't imagine people would actually blatantly use it in its current shape and call it their own! If this is the only result of me going open-source, what is the point? I don't intend to spend my days developing stuff just so that others can take credit for it. (and I certainly won't release the source to any major apps like TTG or anything...)

Bleh, I'm annoyed. Can you tell?

dagsverre · « **Reply #4 on:** 2001-04-03 02:12:00 »

JP was the one saying "good enough", not me. I quoted his mail to me. I'm just as pissed off as you are...

If I were you, I would have given my programs a real license, like the GNU GPL. Much harder for people to do things like that when you have things under a trusted and tried license.

Again, mail the guy and tell him about your complaints. He might better himself a little...

And also, if you care as much about this then put your programs under the GPL at once. I never understood why you didn't do that at once...I think people takes licenses much more seriously than a little note on the download page.

ficedula · « **Reply #5 on:** 2001-04-03 02:14:00 »

Hey, your open-source policy has certainly helped *me*...

But not crediting you for the original source is pretty bad ... have you downloaded the program? I don't credit you on my actual site, but all of my programs that use code based on yours mention you in the readme and about box. Maybe he's done that ... you can hope.

Qhimm · « **Reply #6 on:** 2001-04-03 02:20:00 »

ficedula: He hasn't.

dag: I'll definitely put them under GPL from now, but... how does one go about it all? Like, I don't even have a copy of the GPL license text... ^_^

EDIT: After some consideration, I think I'll use the general BSD license... less troublesome for the poor people trying to use the program. ^_^

[This message has been edited by Qhimm (edited April 02, 2001).]

The SaiNt · « **Reply #7 on:** 2001-04-03 08:05:00 »

Honestly, I think i have to agree Dag, the guy might not even notice that he did so. Maybe he missed out the note on your page. His English could be just as good as your French, Qhimm(no punt intended) so he might not have understood it?

Anyway, maybe you should just mail him and tell him about it. That way, if it was just a mistake or if he forgot, the problem can be remedied easily. If it isn't and he purposely did it then we can plan whatever you want to do to him. Honestly speaking, when making my website, i see a lot of people just stealing source eventhough it's written clearly on my firstpage. Some people just don't see the notices so I guess in some cases its forgivable.

Hope that helps.

[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 03, 2001).]

Joey · « **Reply #8 on:** 2001-04-03 14:02:00 »

That really gave me the creeps!!!!!! IT is sooooooooo scary! But anyway, like I've said, the PC ver of FF9 is out and that's why there is the FF9 editor. Well. It is quite funny.

eerrrr · « **Reply #9 on:** 2001-04-03 14:34:00 »

i dont see much of a funny side about this, and a scary side? that is really out of order, i do french but im 13 so i can never remember what goes on in my lessons. so if you mail him and find out he DID do it on purpose what are you gonna do?

Sir Canealot · « **Reply #10 on:** 2001-04-03 17:31:00 »

Hey joey can you bring a copy of FFIX PC back from the fantasy world you live in please? I would like one....

Aaron · « **Reply #11 on:** 2001-04-03 19:37:00 »

Ha ha ha.

FF9 PC is out?

Ha.

Show it to me. Show me a screen shot... or a web page... or send me a save file... or a demo! Square has always released a demo of their PC games before...

...Ha.

M0T · « **Reply #12 on:** 2001-04-03 20:21:00 »

If you ask him for it he'll make a page himself upload it to geocities(like we wouldn't notice) and then people would visit it and the code would be wrong.

M0T · « **Reply #13 on:** 2001-04-03 20:26:00 »

Did i mention that hed upload a file tht he would say is a demo which would really be a program containing subliminal messaging to join the joey clan.

dagsverre · « **Reply #14 on:** 2001-04-03 22:46:00 »

The reason I mentioned GPL and not BSD is because BSD encourages the behaviour you reacted upon. Specifically, BSD *only* requires you to credit the original author, and is not against closing the source. Using the GPL, source must stay open if someone else use it.

The GPL can be found in HTML version at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

Descriptions of how to apply to your own programs is a the bottom. Getting your school to sign the copyright disclaimer is not necisarry in our countries (IANAL, but I'm pretty sure, at least I don't do it). Just mkae sure you download the text version of the license (linked to on that page) and include it in the .zip file, as well as mention the license in the program.

If you say to yourself you want to do it, reading the GPL is not all that hard. The BSD license is much nicer and shorter, but observe what it says...there's no attempt on keeping the source open source there. Anyways, the FreeBSD license is located at http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html

If you think the GPL will be hard on the users of your programs, why not sum it up in a few lines in the readme or on your page?

ficedula · « **Reply #15 on:** 2001-04-03 23:56:00 »

The GPL requires you to keep the source open ... but it doesn't require you to make the source *easy* to get to. Or rather, it does, but there's some loopholes by which any legally-minded person could make it damn hard to get the source.

Plus it only requires you credit the original author in the source. If I wanted, I could take Qhimm's GPL'd source, make the source hard to get at (though I've credited him in it) and distribute a binary only mentioning me as the author. GPL doesn't really protect you at all against people taking your code and putting new versions with no credits up on their web page. It just protects you mostly against large scale breaks - eg. someone trying to sell your program.

dagsverre · « **Reply #16 on:** 2001-04-04 02:47:00 »

OK, if you look on it this way...

Listen, if someone started to sell Qhimm's programs, do you really think that Qhimm would want to spend the time and money from actually suing them? I think not. Suing people is a time and money consuming process, and for things like this it is simply not worth it. The fact is that the GPL will almost never be actually used in real life. It's just so incredibly nice to have in the case where it is worth the time and money to sue.

(Of course you have the Free Software Foundation which is happy to help you out if someone has violated the GPL.)

In this particular case, a license would have communicated Qhimm's intentions with the source quite clearly. I'm still of the opinion that the french guy simply overlooked something (or didn't think it would be important), a license makes people understand that they only have the source on some terms, which common decency in most cases makes sure they follow.

ficedula · « **Reply #17 on:** 2001-04-04 03:06:00 »

Yeah ... I don't know. I mean, if he'd just posted the programs without saying Qhimm had made them I'd be sure he just didn't realise Qhimm should be credited. But to recompile them, and remove Qhimm's name? It'd be pretty strange not to realise the original author would be pissed by that ... I suppose it's *possible*...

Threesixty · « **Reply #18 on:** 2001-04-04 05:55:00 »

You want to see it in English??? (Sometimes I even surprise myself)

http://world.altavista.com/" TARGET=_blank>Altavista Translator

I would hot link it, if I knew how.

Just put the address in the website box..and use the pulldown and select French to English. And you'll read almost perfect French....I'm really impressed with the translator.

What's funny is that he just changed the look of the page....guess I'll never know how close it was to your page.

Oh...and the translator doesn't update with frames (it won't auto-translate when selecting links with-in a frame)...you'll have to do a copy shortcut to desktop (right click the frame and select Create Shortcut) go to properties of that shortcut now located on your desktop and copy and paste the link from there to the translator.....There may be an easier way, but it's the only way I know. (any link that you select, from then on, should be automaticly translated)

Rough Translation via Systran from Altavista Engine
http://www.ifrance.com/ffantasyworld/app/ffeditor.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ifrance.com/ffantasyworld/app/ffeditor.htm
--------------------

Final Fantasy Editor (closed)

Final Fantasy v1.2b Final Fantasy Editor v1.4

The program so much awaited... finally left.
Final Fantasy Editor is a must for the do-it-yourselfers: it enables you to modify most of your backup of Final Fantasy VIII or IX, PC or Playstation.

For those which plays with a Playstation version, I am happy to announce to you that FF Editor is compatible with Final Fantasy VIII and IX , STAKE and NTSC !

Compared to Final Fantasy VIII Editor, this program does not require any run-time or programs . Stop times of loading, the files of Visual BASIC or MFC of 2 Mo to be downloaded.

Possiblities of F.F Editor for Final Fantasy VIII:
- modification of the characters, the attributes, the limits
- modification of the objects
- ajout/suppression of magics
- modification of the cards, your rules and those of the various areas
- modification of magic associations & of the G-Forces
- modification of the names
- modification of the time of play (for the large do-it-yourselfers)
- modification of the number of gils
- modification of the number of combat and escapes
- modification of... the backup of Chocobo World!
- and still full with others...

Possibilities of F.F. Editor for Final Fanasy IX:
- outline of the record of the skipping rope

For those which would wish to diffuse this to program on their site, you have my authorization in the only condition of sending an e-mail to me by informing me . Thank you!

A help file accompanies the program: lira if possible !

Oh, a lapse of memory that I hurry to repair: visit the Qhimm site on http://home1.swipnet.se/mrdata82" TARGET=_blank>http://home1.swipnet.se/mrdata82 :
Griever (Final Fantasy Editor VIII) it was its idea and I programmed Final Fantasy Editor on his code and it is true that I did not mention it. To repair my error (and I hope that it will forgive me), I withdraw my program where its name does not appear until Thursday April 5 2001 .

Afflicted Qhimm!
-------------------------------

Forgiven?

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 04, 2001).]

Aaron · « **Reply #19 on:** 2001-04-04 06:32:00 »

Ha ha ha. Joey, that's not an editor for FF9 PC. That's for editing memory card files created by emulators.

Too bad all it can do is the jump-rope record.

...Ha.

Joey · « **Reply #20 on:** 2001-04-04 13:32:00 »

Ok, Sorry.....

So, Have u guys heard of WindowBlinds From Stardock?

Aaron · « **Reply #21 on:** 2001-04-04 19:13:00 »

Talking about off-topic.

eerrrr · « **Reply #22 on:** 2001-04-04 21:49:00 »

lol, was it just the translator or was he really calling Qhimm 'it'?

Threesixty · « **Reply #23 on:** 2001-04-05 16:10:00 »

Well...the translator isn't too bad, In a, "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US" kinda way.

I wonder if that game was translated with a software, too.

M0T · « **Reply #24 on:** 2001-04-05 20:05:00 »

Using the altavista translator i got this:
Finally to finish, this program contains code of Griever (Copyright Â© Qhimm) of Qhimm, I thus ask you to visit his site which is worth the turning: http://home1.swipnet.se/mrdata82" TARGET=_blank>http://home1.swipnet.se/mrdata82