Author Topic: The Squall's Dead Theory  (Read 90973 times)

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #100 on: 2010-06-24 19:58:51 »

I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.

I don't think there is an ignore button. If there is, I'm going to ignore everyone except myself ;D

sl1982

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #101 on: 2010-06-24 20:03:19 »
There isn't. Add-ons do exist, but unfortunately they are somewhat bugged in the fact that you can ignore mods and admins.

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #102 on: 2010-06-24 20:04:42 »
There isn't. Add-ons do exist, but unfortunately they are somewhat bugged in the fact that you can ignore mods and admins.

I just looked at "Who's Online" and saw you checking out my profile. I hope you weren't looking for an ignore button. Because that would make me a sad panda ;D

sl1982

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #103 on: 2010-06-24 20:06:49 »
Was the easiest one to click.  ::)  :P

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #104 on: 2010-06-24 20:08:20 »
Was the easiest one to click.  ::)  :P


blackdeathmessenger

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #105 on: 2010-06-24 20:09:04 »

I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.

Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #106 on: 2010-06-24 20:12:47 »
Looks like the shit will continue to fly for a while.

I'm going to sit back, watch, and enjoy myself.


sl1982

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #107 on: 2010-06-24 20:16:40 »

I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.

Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?

If you want to continue this fight take it somewhere else please.

blackdeathmessenger

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #108 on: 2010-06-24 20:18:27 »

I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.

Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?

If you want to continue this fight take it somewhere else please.

Hey,I'm not trying to start a fight or anything,really. Despite the words I used,  I wasn't looking for one.

Furzball

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #109 on: 2010-06-24 20:35:20 »
I just programmed firefox to ignore him. No need for forum ignore.

Lion

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #110 on: 2010-06-25 03:07:57 »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #111 on: 2010-06-25 03:11:48 »
Finnish dude

I think that pic suitably sums up everything that has been said so far :roll:

BTW, let's hope Hermoor never finds it. He hates Finns for being more Viking than he is ;D

blackdeathmessenger

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #112 on: 2010-06-25 04:23:05 »
So much for trying to be civil about the how thing, or even showing RESPECT.

gjoerulv

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #113 on: 2010-06-25 09:46:21 »
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Nope, I don't buy it. Even though I'm a bit impressed with the theory, it doesn't make the story better imo. You really have to dig deep here to grasp it, and, even then, every "evidence" is a bit far-fetched.

I think the story is as weird as it is 'cause the developers wanted to be original and (a bit) controversial. This is present in the junction-system as well.

yoshi314

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #114 on: 2010-06-25 19:24:26 »
let's try go a little back to the thread.

since we're making up crazy stuff, what if the latter half of ff7 is actually rufus' fantasy, after he gets attacted by weapon? makes sense! ;)

oh and whole ff6 is about terra getting killed by an esper right at the beginning, just like the soldiers accompanying her.

i bet we can apply this schema to way more games. c'mon, show your stuff.

it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.

it could be an equivalent of axis of awesome is in music, adapted to games.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-25 19:27:27 by yoshi314 »

ScottMcTony

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #115 on: 2010-06-25 20:10:48 »
Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.

Yes I know the idea that Square Enix intended that Squall was dead is a lot more improbable in real life but as long as an interpretation is consistent with all established canon it's not really incorrect, regardless of the authors intentions. At least that's what's generally taught in literary analysis (or we could just say that reading it as Squall's Dead is a derivative work with effectively the same script), and gafjugh the point is I think there's at least a solid enough case to not call this arbitrary or nonsense.

blackdeathmessenger

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #116 on: 2010-06-25 20:24:32 »
Ok, I'm done with this topic. I'm just...done. To put it like Jack Sparrow: "I wash my hands of this weirdness."

Lion

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #117 on: 2010-06-25 21:11:46 »
proper storytelling (the
Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.

i think you should differentiate between possible and plausible. possible means if it can happen, plausible means if it reasonable. and by all means it's not reasonable at all. The main character dies (ok that's possible). But there would be no character growth, resolution, or anything worth noting in 3 whole discs. Leaving Squall still as a loner, still mission-focused, still love deprived, still insecure, still a cold and unapproachable person. It leaves Edea alive, Rinoa unloved, Seifer unchallenged and Ultimecia with all her powers. It does not explain Irvines case of nerves (because he was shooting at matron), it does not explain Lagunas relationship to Squall, it doesn't add anything to the story, but rather subtracts from it. All the loose ends that are tied up in the 2nd 3rd and final discs become invalidated. So essentially this theory creates more holes than it supposedly fixes (i've yet to see one, the time loop is debatable but it's not a flaw in the plot, but more in the theory of time loops). Themes and symbolism are intended to strengthen a storys intended meaning, not to support some crock what-if story about how the main character dies that goes against the grain of every story anyones ever heard. If someone dies, then be assured there will be hints at the death. (near death does not count as nearly every story has this, there is no way to distinguish this from any other story). I can't exactly put my finger on it, but it's not just one thing that's wrong with this theory. It's like saying, I don't like the intended idea of the Bible and since I've seen the Matrix I'm going to project what I felt should have happened onto the Bible. I could argue Jesus is from the Matrix, (and piss off a lot of people while I'm at it). Seeing as how he miraculously walks on water, feeds thousands of people with hardly anything, comes back to life, talks to God and is supposed to be the saviour. It's like a puzzle with a missing piece. Sure you can put some play doh inside and mold it into the shape of the missing piece, but it's quite obviously bs and would not make sense to go there. It may fit, but fitting does not mean it's accurate.

ScottMcTony

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #118 on: 2010-06-25 21:21:47 »
I was saying that what actually explicitly happens in FF8 after the end of disc 1 is a tad implausible in accordance with rules established in disc 1, and personal circumstances at the time of Squall's supposed death. I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).

Chocobo_Girl

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #119 on: 2010-06-25 22:00:01 »
it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.

I've never played any of the games (I'm sure I'd shit my pants or something) but I have seen the movie, and it is implied that at the beginning of the movie they do actually die when they get into a car crash when they see something creepeh on their way to Silent Hill. When they get back to their home they realize they're not in the same world they came from (hence probably dead).

Ok, I'm done with this topic. I'm just...done. To put it like Jack Sparrow: "I wash my hands of this weirdness."

Watch him come back. :P

The main character dies (ok that's possible). But there would be no character growth, resolution, or anything worth noting in 3 whole discs. Leaving Squall still as a loner, still mission-focused, still love deprived, still insecure, still a cold and unapproachable person.

That’s the point you’re missing. Squall’s character does develop in his “dream” and the story continues on in his dream. I’ve heard plenty of stories that end up with the character just waking up and it was just a dream. Sure that’s a pretty lame plot device, *but* it doesn’t stop the story from being a story. Think of Eternal Sonata. I haven’t played it but I’ve heard that it’s all about Chopin’s dream. It doesn’t mean that it ain’t a story just cuz it’s told in that form. :P

Seeing as how he miraculously walks on water, feeds thousands of people with hardly anything, comes back to life, talks to God and is supposed to be the saviour. It's like a puzzle with a missing piece. Sure you can put some play doh inside and mold it into the shape of the missing piece, but it's quite obviously bs and would not make sense to go there.

The stories in the Bible are only to “guide” people and to set a path for them. That is ultimately the point of most religions. Pretty much like myths, the most important part of them is the moral of the story, not whether it’s true or not.

BTW, please use paragraphs. Hueg blocks of text kill me a little inside.

I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).

Yes, he does talk a lot without really saying anything. : /

The Seer of Shadows

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #120 on: 2010-06-26 03:27:26 »


Anyway...

When it comes to fictional works, interpretation is all that really counts.  Any interpretation is acceptable as long as it can be justified with evidence and reasonable analysis, and as long as the author himself doesn't directly refute it.

Of course, with non-fictional works, it's different.  Interpreting it in whatever way suits you is not appropriate, because it's the truth that counts this time (whereas truth doesn't exist in the fictional world, because none of it is even real).

I would therefore not encourage any argument that Jesus is from the Matrix, because the bible is argued by many to be a factual account (at least to some degree) of religious history.  That, and also because the bible was written ages before the Matrix, so it would be grossly anachronistic.

By the way, Vincent is dead.  Seriously, how could he not be?  Hojo shoots him, he wakes up in a coffin five years later, and his second limit break turns him into Frankenstein's Monster.

Krimson Hawk

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #121 on: 2010-06-26 16:35:08 »
proper storytelling (the
Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.

(i've yet to see one, the time loop is debatable but it's not a flaw in the plot, but more in the theory of time loops).
I agree with that, it doesn't necessarily create 'flaws' more than it creates speculation because time loop is not possible in real life leaving the subject open to endless ideas. That's why to me it doesn't make sense to apply logic, I only brought it up because I've seen forums with several pages of different theories. technically a topic about the FF8 time loop would never end and thus should never begin lol

nikfrozty

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #122 on: 2010-06-26 16:45:09 »
Vincent is dead.  Seriously, how could he not be?  Hojo shoots him, he wakes up in a coffin five years later, and his second limit break turns him into Frankenstein's Monster.
This, not really on topic but how is it possible that vincent can fly?? Also I agree he's already dead and chaos is the only thing that makes him alive but without chaos he's dead.

yoshi314

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #123 on: 2010-06-26 17:04:51 »
it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.

I've never played any of the games (I'm sure I'd sh*t my pants or something) but I have seen the movie, and it is implied that at the beginning of the movie they do actually die when they get into a car crash when they see something creepeh on their way to Silent Hill. When they get back to their home they realize they're not in the same world they came from (hence probably dead).
just for reference for people who didn;t play those games before.

silent hill 1 (psx only) :
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beAgEzJvt9s

now that i think of it main character might die even twice here.

first he wakes from car crash (that's when the game starts), second time he gets killed by some monsters ( ~5:10). and wakes up at local bar.

most people believe that when he is killed by monsters he dies for real. and some mysterious force (won't spoil) resurrects him just this once. but it also makes monsters spawn all over the town - at the beginning the town is empty.

silent hill 3 (pc/ps2) :
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEZILKeI-Sw
~3:30 - ~7:20

main character gets killed, and wakes up in a bar, concluding it was just a nightmare.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-26 17:07:46 by yoshi314 »

Lion

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Re: The Squall's Dead Theory
« Reply #124 on: 2010-06-26 17:53:21 »
I was saying that what actually explicitly happens in FF8 after the end of disc 1 is a tad implausible in accordance with rules established in disc 1, and personal circumstances at the time of Squall's supposed death. I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).
u mad?