Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)  (Read 4839628 times)

Mithrain

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5500 on: 2017-06-20 15:57:26 »
Ahoy Segabro!
Been having this FF7-itch for a while, that I've been wanting to scratch, but I'm trying to hold out for 1.5, any ETA on that? :>

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5501 on: 2017-06-21 05:41:08 »
Ok, I can't get the Zeigfried encounter to work right. Every time he shows up, the game crashes after the battle end. It doesn't matter which forest I fight him in either, it's the same thing every time. It's proving so damned problematic I have decided to just turn the random ninja encounter off entirely using the Black Chocobo program. I know it's glitching as it tries to load the 'next area' after that encounter, but nothing I have done has prevented it from crashing, and the Zeigfried encounter shows up too often in certain areas. :(

EDIT; Also, the first time I encountered him in the Junon Forest, he killed himself with Odin before the game then glitched. Every battle elsewhere in the world ran the same 'battle script', but Zeigfried never had enough Mana to summon Odin, resulting in lots of ": (" messages, followed by me killing him and the game then crashing. So yeah, something funny and in need of tweaking is going on there with that.
« Last Edit: 2017-06-21 09:56:36 by Robo Jesus »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5502 on: 2017-06-21 14:32:41 »
I'll check out Ziegfried, but that scene should be functional. Maybe something's changed since then, or other mods are conflicting. I've taken a note of the other issues people have raised as well.

Ahoy Segabro!
Been having this FF7-itch for a while, that I've been wanting to scratch, but I'm trying to hold out for 1.5, any ETA on that? :>

I'm on the last 3 bosses; Synthesis, Bizz, and Safer. I've some time off until Saturday so I'll see about trying to finish it up, if possible, but there's some Arrange testing needing done.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5503 on: 2017-06-21 15:05:59 »
I'll check out Ziegfried, but that scene should be functional. Maybe something's changed since then, or other mods are conflicting. I've taken a note of the other issues people have raised as well.
No other mods on my game here, just so you know. The only mod I 'want' to add is the 'always run' option, though I've held off despite the usefulness of it due to it apparently causing problems getting the wig during the squats minigame for the crossdressing scene.

And yeah, the 'first' time Ziggy showed up his battle script played like it should (Odin being summoned and all that), though I restarted the game once it crashed. After that point I avoided fighting him, but that 'lack of MP' thing happened near Rocket Town on disc 1 as well. So it's not just a "Disc 2" thing.

I'm going to turn the "Random Ninja Fight" check back on and test it in the 'still-remaining' Junon Forest to see what Ziggy does (am on disc 2 atm, with one of the Weapons about to attack Midgar). I'll report back after trying it a few times.

EDIT; Ok, I turned the ninja encounter check back on using the Black Chocobo program, and Ziggy does not have enough MP to do his tricks. Did it three times. All had the same response there with that.

Second EDIT; Also, you'll need to expand the "Billy" text box at the Chocobo Farm when choosing to "Ride Chocobos". As-is, the text is squished due to the text-box size.

Third EDIT; I think I have spotted an issue with Red's "4th" setup for increasing his stats. The text says "+5 to all stats except Luck". Well, I'm getting "10" Sources for every stat here. The reason I bring that up is all the other options offer 25 additional sources (55 total), while that option offers 30 (60 total).

Also, I had pretty much all of the characters stats SP/Rank Up's "Filled" long before I got the last Mega-materia. SP is being handed out too easily here there with that.
« Last Edit: 2017-06-22 03:42:15 by Robo Jesus »

GeoFlare

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5504 on: 2017-06-22 03:43:49 »
No other mods on my game here, just so you know. The only mod I 'want' to add is the 'always run' option, though I've held off despite the usefulness of it due to it apparently causing problems getting the wig during the squats minigame for the crossdressing scene.

And yeah, the 'first' time Ziggy showed up his battle script played like it should (Odin being summoned and all that), though I restarted the game once it crashed. After that point I avoided fighting him, but that 'lack of MP' thing happened near Rocket Town on disc 1 as well. So it's not just a "Disc 2" thing.

I'm going to turn the "Random Ninja Fight" check back on and test it in the 'still-remaining' Junon Forest to see what Ziggy does (am on disc 2 atm, with one of the Weapons about to attack Midgar). I'll report back after trying it a few times.

EDIT; Ok, I turned the ninja encounter check back on using the Black Chocobo program, and Ziggy does not have enough MP to do his tricks. Did it three times. All had the same response there with that.

Second EDIT; Also, you'll need to expand the "Billy" text box at the Chocobo Farm when choosing to "Ride Chocobos". As-is, the text is squished due to the text-box size.

Third EDIT; I think I have spotted an issue with Red's "4th" setup for increasing his stats. The text says "+5 to all stats except Luck". Well, I'm getting "10" Sources for every stat here. The reason I bring that up is all the other options offer 25 additional sources (55 total), while that option offers 30 (60 total).

Also, I had pretty much all of the characters stats SP/Rank Up's "Filled" long before I got the last Mega-materia. SP is being handed out too easily here there with that.

I think you aren't taking into account the 5 sources you get for every stat per rank up. You get 5 for each stat before you purchase a specific set.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5505 on: 2017-06-22 03:48:03 »
I think you aren't taking into account the 5 sources you get for every stat per rank up. You get 5 for each stat before you purchase a specific set.
...did you actually read what you quoted? I already covered that. In case those numbers slipped you by though, I'll repeat myself.

Every "Base" Rank Up gives five sources for each stat. That's thirty total. The reason it's mentionable is all the characters get twenty-five additional sources on top of the base thirty (fifty-five total), but that option with Red is giving sixty sources total.

I'm halfway tempted to start up a new game and play for an hour or two in order to rank up to see if Cloud's similiar option is giving the same results.

Mithrain

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5506 on: 2017-06-22 06:22:30 »
I'm on the last 3 bosses; Synthesis, Bizz, and Safer. I've some time off until Saturday so I'll see about trying to finish it up, if possible, but there's some Arrange testing needing done.
Oh man, that's actually a lot closer than I expected; and arrange is making a comeback? My body is ready!

Bowser9

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5507 on: 2017-06-22 07:52:00 »
Agreed, Mithrain. Hopes are high, and it'd be great to see some old faces back on here for New Threat's final form.

Miacis

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5508 on: 2017-06-23 15:50:42 »
[Vincent]
I've never tried physical-damage Vincent, but he's pretty darn good as a pure support tank where his limits don't matter too much. With his default "build" (MAG/VIT + STR), you've got a Barret level tank that gets his damage from counters, and spends his actual turns healing non-trivial amounts, or flinging a fireball here and there. Against bosses with high damage output, it's not a bad choice. Of the main potential tanks (Barret, Cait Sith, Cid??) he's one of two with a long range weapon. Plus, while Barret is constantly choosing between tanking and attacking (Atk or Def stacks? Short or long range weapons? Sadness or Fury? +Vit weapons or high Atk ones?) Vincent tanks, supports, and always uses a gun to counter anyway... and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever.

Without completely reworking Vincent's limits, I just don't think there's much to make them worth using. The way I see it, it's his main character flaw that needs to be worked around by the player to use him. There's just too little reason to waste time putting him in the front row to launch random attacks (that may end up being magical anyways) when he could stay in the back taking pot-shots at the enemy.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5509 on: 2017-06-23 21:03:43 »
I've never tried physical-damage Vincent, but he's pretty darn good as a pure support tank where his limits don't matter too much. With his default "build" (MAG/VIT + STR), you've got a Barret level tank that gets his damage from counters, and spends his actual turns healing non-trivial amounts, or flinging a fireball here and there. Against bosses with high damage output, it's not a bad choice. Of the main potential tanks (Barret, Cait Sith, Cid??) he's one of two with a long range weapon. Plus, while Barret is constantly choosing between tanking and attacking (Atk or Def stacks? Short or long range weapons? Sadness or Fury? +Vit weapons or high Atk ones?) Vincent tanks, supports, and always uses a gun to counter anyway... and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever.

Without completely reworking Vincent's limits, I just don't think there's much to make them worth using. The way I see it, it's his main character flaw that needs to be worked around by the player to use him. There's just too little reason to waste time putting him in the front row to launch random attacks (that may end up being magical anyways) when he could stay in the back taking pot-shots at the enemy.
Ok, I laughed at the "and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever" line. Thank you for that.

Still, I've found that Vincent is hitting his limit after two, maybe even three hits if the enemy is weak enough, even with Sad (Mideel, Ancient Forest, and the Northern Crater being the areas I'm focused on atm). That in turn makes his usability in a physical-damage based role pretty much entirely unworkable. And that makes it utterly useless to use any of his rank up options that don't support a setup like you suggested.

That is not a good thing with things left as-is. And it won't take much to 'fix' that either. Just slowing down how quickly his limit breaks fill fixes that issue with using Vincent in a physical-damage based role.

That's why I had to speak up and say something.
« Last Edit: 2017-06-23 21:05:32 by Robo Jesus »

strife98

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5510 on: 2017-06-23 21:11:43 »
Ok, I laughed at the "and fittingly, doesn't care about staying Sad forever" line. Thank you for that.

Still, I've found that Vincent is hitting his limit after two, maybe even three hits if the enemy is weak enough, even with Sad (Mideel, Ancient Forest, and the Northern Crater being the areas I'm focused on atm). That in turn makes his usability in a physical-damage based role pretty much entirely unworkable. And that makes it utterly useless to use any of his rank up options that don't support a setup like you suggested.

That is not a good thing with things left as-is. And it won't take much to 'fix' that either. Just slowing down how quickly his limit breaks fill fixes that issue with using Vincent in a physical-damage based role.

That's why I had to speak up and say something.

You could easily remedy that by having Mug + Added Cut, or just mug really. Once I got 3 mugs I went through the rest of the game with each character having Mug to save my limits for important things.(Also Mug + Added Cut is super good for Healing Staff Aerith)
« Last Edit: 2017-06-23 21:16:32 by strife98 »

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5511 on: 2017-06-23 21:37:02 »
You could easily remedy that by having Mug + Added Cut, or just mug really. Once I got 3 mugs I went through the rest of the game with each character having Mug to save my limits for important things.(Also Mug + Added Cut is super good for Healing Staff Aerith)
Vincent Mug Glitch (which I brought up earlier for why I normally do not use "Mug" with Vincent).

That said, I have not messed around with Added Cut to see if that would get around that particular canon glitch.

strife98

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5512 on: 2017-06-23 21:42:18 »
Vincent Mug Glitch (which I brought up earlier for why I normally do not use "Mug" with Vincent).

That said, I have not messed around with Added Cut to see if that would get around that particular canon glitch.

Ah I completely forgot about that. Well, could do Deathblow + Added Cut instead.
« Last Edit: 2017-06-23 21:54:39 by strife98 »

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5513 on: 2017-06-23 22:41:12 »
Ah I completely forgot about that. Well, could do Deathblow + Added Cut instead.
Deathblow is mostly worthless on Vincent due to his low luck and weapon percentages. Canon had two weapons with a 255% hit rate for Vincent, but this mod only has one such weapon for Vincent with that hit rate (not counting the Masamune), and even then it's an end-game weapon, which again, majorly messes with Vincent's usability outside of one type of setup with things as they are. :shrugs:

And a person should not have to waste two materia slots in order to be able to physically hit generic enemies when they chose to use attacks.
« Last Edit: 2017-06-23 22:44:07 by Robo Jesus »

strife98

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5514 on: 2017-06-23 22:53:29 »
Deathblow is mostly worthless on Vincent due to his low luck and weapon percentages. Canon had two weapons with a 255% hit rate for Vincent, but this mod only has one such weapon for Vincent with that hit rate (not counting the Masamune), and even then it's an end-game weapon, which again, majorly messes with Vincent's usability outside of one type of setup with things as they are. :shrugs:

And a person should not have to waste two materia slots in order to be able to physically hit generic enemies when they chose to use attacks.

Yeah, would have to bank on Mug + Added Cut to work properly so you'd get two attacks out of it. I mean, deathblow is kind of useless in general unless you have a super high percentage hit rate weapon, but the extra added cut makes it a little less useless. Though, it's definitely kind of pointless to put on Vincent. Well, sometimes you have to sacrifice stuff to make a character work the way you want. I personally would work toward a magic based Vincent though. Magic Counter would definitely get some work done. Or just make him a full cover counter tank, and have him forever defending. Put some defensive and healing spells on him (or just Enemy Skill) for emergencies and he'd be set.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5515 on: 2017-06-23 23:07:30 »
Yeah, would have to bank on Mug + Added Cut to work properly so you'd get two attacks out of it. I mean, deathblow is kind of useless in general unless you have a super high percentage hit rate weapon, but the extra added cut makes it a little less useless. Though, it's definitely kind of pointless to put on Vincent. Well, sometimes you have to sacrifice stuff to make a character work the way you want. I personally would work toward a magic based Vincent though. Magic Counter would definitely get some work done. Or just make him a full cover counter tank, and have him forever defending. Put some defensive and healing spells on him (or just Enemy Skill) for emergencies and he'd be set.
Indeed, but like I said, as a caster there are usually better options available due to those character's innates or equipment, and as a physical fighter Vincent is all but worthless at the moment due to how insanely quickly his Limit Breaks fill. In addition to that, most of Vincent's weapons are also specced towards towards their use in physical attacks. Hence why I had to speak up.

Miacis

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5516 on: 2017-06-24 12:35:21 »
Hopefully this isn't running it too much into the ground, but I think the problem is less Vincent's balance, and more what is you seem to expect of him.

If you look at Vincent's stat spread, he's not really geared towards using his turns on using the fight command. Dex is essentially absent from his SP ranks, and most of his guns boost either his magic or inflict status effect, so the only attacks he's gonna be getting consistently is through counters. Sure you can gear him up to do more physical damage, but to me it's like Magic Barret:you don't just use him as a magic DPS, you also use his natural abilities towards tanking (magic counters) or physical damage (mixed phys/mag offense). Similarly, if you want pure physical DPS (or pure magical DPS) Vincent, yes, there are probably better choices, but what matters is he can be somewhat polyvalent in that role. There aren't any other characters who can tank physical, heal a lot and fling spells/Osmose (not Barret), and still get decent physical counters off from the back row (not Cait Sith). It's not ideal super awesome OP, but in situations where defense and support is key (Curator says hi), it's definitely worth it.

If Vincent's limits are made slower, to me all it's going to do is improve his already-mediocre Fight potential, at the cost of making the limits essentially worthless. As it stands, they can still serve a bit of a end-of-fight last push when you're certain you can end this safely. Having them charge quickly means they're always on hand, but if that's gone, well... I guess a hypothetical limit defense boost would allow him to duel more easily, but having an innate that won't have much use outside of the Battle Arena seems kinda eh to me.

Plus, isn't the Vincent Mug glitch purely graphical? It really shouldn't prevent you from using a build you want to use, unless the lack of damage numbers on the following attack is that debilitating.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5517 on: 2017-06-25 18:54:25 »
Sorry I've not been as responsive the last few days.

About Vincent's attacks, they do get locked down when his Limit gauge fills and Deathblow is a bit haphazard as a replacement. Added Cut was swapped with DB for the new build but this still requires that an initial command be used to get a physical attack out of him.

I could revisit a plan I had in an older build to set different rates at which the Limit gauge would build for Vincent but this involves working around a limitation in how many Limits can be learned by any one character. The idea would be to have a Limit level that 'never charges', leaving his attack command free for use. This means shuffling around Limits though and would likely mean having Chaos be learned naturally rather than through an item.

The Vincent Mug glitch only occurs with a specific weapon-type equipped. There's actually several separate models for Barret and Vincent in the game files to handle the different weapon types, and the one Vincent uses for certain rifles doesn't end correctly when reading the Mug animation, causing the next animation to 'skip'. It can be fixed, so I might look into that although it can be handy for skipping a certain Summon animation :3

There's also an enemy attack that does this skip, which I think is used by Screamers on Mt. Nibel (their war-cry attack).

Renyth

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5518 on: 2017-06-26 06:49:57 »
Hey there Sega, been a long fan of this mod so wanted to come on and root for ya.

Did think of something for this Vincent thing though if it's possible. Would it be possible to create a Materia that just gives the attack command as if it was a command materia like the others? Vincent does kind of have Protomateria built into him as lore which could sort of fit. It would seem a little silly perhaps since it's a guaranteed used slot on him and only effective if he's saving Limits for something. Just a thought though I'm curious if that sort of Materia could work. Thinking on it it'd be nice on multiple characters if you wanted to save limits and MP for certain fights.

Keep up the good work man, hands down the most refreshing thing I've played and it's really hard to go back to old 7 now.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5519 on: 2017-06-26 12:40:22 »
Sorry I've not been as responsive the last few days.

About Vincent's attacks, they do get locked down when his Limit gauge fills and Deathblow is a bit haphazard as a replacement. Added Cut was swapped with DB for the new build but this still requires that an initial command be used to get a physical attack out of him.

I could revisit a plan I had in an older build to set different rates at which the Limit gauge would build for Vincent but this involves working around a limitation in how many Limits can be learned by any one character. The idea would be to have a Limit level that 'never charges', leaving his attack command free for use. This means shuffling around Limits though and would likely mean having Chaos be learned naturally rather than through an item.

The Vincent Mug glitch only occurs with a specific weapon-type equipped. There's actually several separate models for Barret and Vincent in the game files to handle the different weapon types, and the one Vincent uses for certain rifles doesn't end correctly when reading the Mug animation, causing the next animation to 'skip'. It can be fixed, so I might look into that although it can be handy for skipping a certain Summon animation :3

There's also an enemy attack that does this skip, which I think is used by Screamers on Mt. Nibel (their war-cry attack).
Interesting, and informative!

The "Set #2" Rank up for Vincent highly benefits physical damage builds, but hmm. I guess I have two questions then, both tied into eachother.

If you were to mess with the the level gauge like that (and in doing so make the 4th limit break a naturally learnable one), would the "Chaos" item that gives the limit break still work? And if so, the second question is can you alter the number of enemies needed for learning the fourth limit? Because it seems that if both of the answers to these questions are 'yes', you could set up "Chaos" to be learnt either after having Vincent kill the max number of creatures the kill count goes to, or just using the item like 'normal'.

That in turn would mean that even though it becomes 'technically feasible' for a player to 'naturally learn' Chaos, in reality the kill count needed being so extremely high makes it all but impossible. :shrugs:

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5520 on: 2017-06-26 12:51:06 »
Hey there Sega, been a long fan of this mod so wanted to come on and root for ya.

Did think of something for this Vincent thing though if it's possible. Would it be possible to create a Materia that just gives the attack command as if it was a command materia like the others? Vincent does kind of have Protomateria built into him as lore which could sort of fit. It would seem a little silly perhaps since it's a guaranteed used slot on him and only effective if he's saving Limits for something. Just a thought though I'm curious if that sort of Materia could work. Thinking on it it'd be nice on multiple characters if you wanted to save limits and MP for certain fights.

Keep up the good work man, hands down the most refreshing thing I've played and it's really hard to go back to old 7 now.

I dunno if it is; Attack occupies a certain slot on the menu and Limit overrides it.
Interesting, and informative!

The "Set #2" Rank up for Vincent highly benefits physical damage builds, but hmm. I guess I have two questions then, both tied into eachother.

If you were to mess with the the level gauge like that (and in doing so make the 4th limit break a naturally learnable one), would the "Chaos" item that gives the limit break still work? And if so, the second question is can you alter the number of enemies needed for learning the fourth limit? Because it seems that if both of the answers to these questions are 'yes', you could set up "Chaos" to be learnt either after having Vincent kill the max number of creatures the kill count goes to, or just using the item like 'normal'.

That in turn would mean that even though it becomes 'technically feasible' for a player to 'naturally learn' Chaos, in reality the kill count needed being so extremely high makes it all but impossible. :shrugs:

The game has no kill check for Limit Level 4, but if I went this route I'd be putting Chaos onto the lower Limit levels where it could be learned just like any other limit and remove the Chaos item. It'd likely look like this:

Limit Level 1: Galian Beast & Gigas
Limit Level 2: Hellmasker & Chaos
Limit Level 3: Dummy Command (with name '[No Limit]'; if filled by an effect like Fury Brand and used, the gauge depletes and no action is taken)

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5521 on: 2017-06-26 13:53:18 »
The game has no kill check for Limit Level 4, but if I went this route I'd be putting Chaos onto the lower Limit levels where it could be learned just like any other limit and remove the Chaos item. It'd likely look like this:

Limit Level 1: Galian Beast & Gigas
Limit Level 2: Hellmasker & Chaos
Limit Level 3: Dummy Command (with name '[No Limit]'; if filled by an effect like Fury Brand and used, the gauge depletes and no action is taken)
Ahh, I see now. Hmm. A bit different than what I was initially thinking. Still, that does clear up some confusion. I wonder, could you tie the '[No Limit]' to each limit instead? Like this maybe?

Limit Level 1: Galian Beast
-Limit Level 1a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 2: Gigas
-Limit Level 2a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 3: Hellmasker
-Limit Level 3a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 4: Chaos

Would that sort of setup be feasible?

RecklessPrudence

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5522 on: 2017-06-26 17:02:17 »
Ahh, I see now. Hmm. A bit different than what I was initially thinking. Still, that does clear up some confusion. I wonder, could you tie the '[No Limit]' to each limit instead? Like this maybe?

Limit Level 1: Galian Beast
-Limit Level 1a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 2: Gigas
-Limit Level 2a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 3: Hellmasker
-Limit Level 3a: [No Limit]
Limit Level 4: Chaos

Would that sort of setup be feasible?
I think the problem with that is that the Attack command would still get replaced with Limit, since the non-[No Limit] option is still available. And if [No Limit] was basically just an attack command that reset your Limit gauge, it's conceivable that setting Vincent to Limit Tier 1, using him as normal until the Limit gauge fills, then using that faster-than-Hasted ATB fill after a character reaches their Limit to get an extra turn in, and then resetting his gauge and going as normal until it fills again, getting the fast one-two Vincent turn, then resetting... Especially if the reason to give Vincent a [No Limit] is to allow building him for his attacks, so Vincent repeatedly gets 'free' ATB fills and attacks anyway with them...

Setting [No Limit] as a seperate tier would potentially allow for Vincent's gauge to never fill, and if it doesn't, setting it as Tier 3 would allow for the most time between the free ATB fills without locking it behind a Tier 4 item.

Just a thought, it's after 3am local, so I might not be thinking as clearly as I think I am, so it may make no sense.

Robo Jesus

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5523 on: 2017-06-26 17:23:32 »
I think the problem with that is that the Attack command would still get replaced with Limit, since the non-[No Limit] option is still available. And if [No Limit] was basically just an attack command that reset your Limit gauge, it's conceivable that setting Vincent to Limit Tier 1, using him as normal until the Limit gauge fills, then using that faster-than-Hasted ATB fill after a character reaches their Limit to get an extra turn in, and then resetting his gauge and going as normal until it fills again, getting the fast one-two Vincent turn, then resetting... Especially if the reason to give Vincent a [No Limit] is to allow building him for his attacks, so Vincent repeatedly gets 'free' ATB fills and attacks anyway with them...

Setting [No Limit] as a seperate tier would potentially allow for Vincent's gauge to never fill, and if it doesn't, setting it as Tier 3 would allow for the most time between the free ATB fills without locking it behind a Tier 4 item.

Just a thought, it's after 3am local, so I might not be thinking as clearly as I think I am, so it may make no sense.
Interesting, and I'm glad you pointed that out.

I was thinking of the [No Limit] option doing something 'normal' like a regular attack or defense option for that turn, so the implications for how to abuse it like that had slipped me by. In those contexts, having it just normally "Attack" would have to be nixed. Out of curiousity, what do you think about having it 'defend' and automatically making him 'Sad'? Would that be abusable in your opinion?

RecklessPrudence

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #5524 on: 2017-06-26 19:11:01 »
Heh. Now's when I admit I haven't actually played your mod yet, just been eyeing it off - I haven't played FFVII since I had it on PS1, and I'm on my first playthrough since then now, with just graphical upgrades and minor tweaks. Considering whether to finish that, or wait for New Threat 1.5 and play that. So I can't really speak too much to balance.

Putting it as a Tier 3 isn't that abusable, I don't think - way less than allowing it as an option at Tier 1, simply because of how much more it takes to fill a Tier 3 guage. I don't know much about how far you can get into VII's workings, but could you up how much Vincent's Level 3 gauge needs to fill, without upping anyone else's? Or were they smart, and linked them all to the one variable? It's probably not possible to have Vincent not empty his guage...

Idea! Is it possible to make a new form for Vincent, one that doesn't steal control from the player? If that's possible, would it be at all possible to have said new form 'set' at the start of each battle, as a duplicate of the current Vincent build? So since he's in a 'Beast form', Vincent's Beast forms dont' have Limit bars, right? Or is losing control built in to how Vincent's Limits work, too?

Hm. If that doesn't work, and assuming you can't replace the Chaos item with an item that teaches a Tier 4 [No Limit], without requiring Vincent to know all his limits prior to that, and put it in the player's inventory when they get him out of the coffin... maybe bumping every limit but the existing Tier 1 down a notch, so Chaos is the Tier 3, and putting the [No Limit]-teaching item as the Tier 4 unlock, representing him mastering himself or something? Leaves the player still able to get a little extra speed out of him, but it's a Tier 4 gauge fill, not a Tier 1.

Hm. Again. Setting your Tier resets your gauge to zero, even if you set it to the same tier. Could you hang a hook so that when Vincent's gauge reaches just short of filling on the [No Limit] tier, whether that be 3 or 4, it uses the normal set-tier functionality the game already has, so Vincent never reaches his Limit? And dress it up in some lore about him mastering the Beast inside, but in doing so having to give up his Limit, as the necessary control, hard-won through meditation and stuff, precludes him from building up the [whatever] that allows for Limits?

Sorry. Llike I said, I'm not sure of how much you can do with VII's internals, so none of my ideas may work. I'm... cautiously optimistic? the last one might, though.