Author Topic: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod  (Read 17254 times)

jardart

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FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« on: 2010-02-02 04:20:09 »
Hello everyone,

since I've been playing with the idea of creating a mod of my own for quite a while now and was recently looking for a somewhat original way to play through this game, I've just decided, I could quite easily set my hand on something you could call an enforced character classes mod. In particular this means that I'm trying to limit each character to certain abilities and equipment plus modify these and the characters stats, as it is known from some other Final Fantasies, for instance.
To do this, I'll mainly be using WallMarket, however there are just a few things of matter this program can't modify, and I'd like to know if there might exist any other tools or easy ways around this. (I'm completely lost when it comes to hexediting and that kinda stuff, so leave that out. :P)
So what I'm looking for, is on the one hand some way to change the initial equipment and stats of Cait Sith and Vincent. I've heard something about their stats being dependant on those of the other members when they're joining your team, so I suppose they might not be modifiable in WallMarket because of that. Though, if there actually is a way to do it, I'd like to know.
Next, I'm aware there are ways to modify the supply in stores, respectively the prices, but I didn't come around any appropriate tool yet, nor do I know which files this information is located in.
Further, I don't think this is easily possible, but if someone knows a way to bind materia to certain characters or even to weapons/armor, that'd be great.

Regarding the more specific stuff, I'm already positive about most classes that should be included and their equipment, however some of them are giving me a headache. I should mention that I'm putting emphasis on the classes to suit their character, plus I want the whole thing to be somewhat challenging, not the hardest mod out there, but not a cakewalk either. ;)
As for how the skills will be available, I'm intending to modify a few of the materia that can't be found anywhere but only bought at stores (so hopefully I can completely abandon any duplicates of these materias by making them unavailable or at least unaffordable in stores) to hold all the skills a certain character should be able to learn and make them their initial equipment. The amounts of AP needed for new skills to be obtained are yet to be considered. Any materia collected throughout the game shouldn't have any use but serve as a source of money.

Here follows a list of my first considerations so far, which only holds information regarding the character classes and what skills they should have but no information regarding stats or equipment.
All skills are listed in the order of learning. Included are a few spells such as Blind or Hastega, which don't exist in the game, but are meant to be created. Oh and I'm using the names from the "New Spell Patch" by zero88, but most of you should be familiar with those.

Thief/Ninja - Yuffie
Skills: Steal, Throw, Escape, Mug, Coin, Morph, Remove
Other Materia: Gil Plus, Pre-Emptive, Speed Plus
Limits: None

Blue Mage - Cait Sith
Skills: All(?) Enemy Skills, Manipulate
Other Materia: Chocobo Lure, Underwater
Limits: None

Black Mage - Red XIII
Skills: Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Tremor, Bio, Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Quake, Biora, Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga, Earthquake, Bioga, Comet, Freeze, Break, Tornado, Flare, Cometeo, Ultima
Other Materia: Magic Plus, perhaps Magic Counter
Limits: Lv.1 - spell (tier 1) hitting all enemies, Lv.2 W-Magic (tier 2), Lv.3 W-Magic, all enemies (tier 3), Lv.4 Quadra Magic (tier4)

Arcane Mage - Vincent
Skills: Demi, Mini, Blind, Confu, Slow, Demara, Silence, Toad, Berserk, Sleepel, Demaga, Slowaga, Stop, Death
Other Materia: None
Limits: Perhaps Hades or some unique spell that inflicts several status changes, or leave him with his original transformations.

On to the somewhat tougher calls...

Berserker - Barret (I'm not too happy with this, though it wouldn't probably be bad, gameplay-wise.)
Skills: X-Attack (after lots of AP), Flash
Other Materia: HP-Absorb (linked to Slash All), Cover, Counter Attack (probably multiple ones, with different leveling requirements), HP Plus
Limits: None
Notes: Will always wear accessory that inflicts the berserk status.

Monk - Tifa
Skills: Sense, Deathblow, 2xAttack, 4xAttack, W-Item
Other Materia: maybe Long Range (after lots of AP)
Limits: Default ones.

White Mage - Aeris (She would obviously suit a white mage very well, the only downside is her early death, after which the need for a healer doesn't exactly decline, so probably someone else should take over this role from the very beginning. Tifa would be a rather valid option, though it would be sad, regarding her unique weapons and limits.)  :|
Skills: Cure, Poisona, Barrier, MBarrier,Cura, Esuna, Life, Haste, Regen, Curaga, Reflect, Wall, Resist, Hastega, Full Cure, Revive
Other Materia: Magic Plus, perhaps Magic Counter
Limits: Likely the same as the Black Mage.

Summoner - Aeris (might be more appropriate for her, since the usefulness of summons - excluding KOTR - usually decreases towards the endgame anyway.)
Skills: All Summons in the usual order, except of Hades, provided he becomes part of Vincent's setup.
Other Materia: Magic Plus, MP Plus, perhaps MP Turbo
Limits: Either simply free of charge summons or some exclusive ones or W-Summon.

Cloud - Well... hard to decide. I was planning on giving him some elemental swords but that alone won't do. Adding Mime would be an option, but still a bit clumsy for a main character. Then again, there are still some spells to be allotet, such as DeBarrier and Dispell. This and maybe a couple more of some newish skills, which could allow to break enemies stats for example, would be fine, I guess.

Cid - Don't really know, he gets aboard too late to make for an effective white mage, so I'd probably let him have Tifa's part and simply call it Dragoon. This would furthemore be fortunate, in that you wouldn't have to start out with all the melees.

So, any help/recommendations would be greatly appreciated. :)

Bosola

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #1 on: 2010-02-02 05:06:49 »
Hello Jardart. Welcome to the Qhimm!

Let me answer each point in turn:

Quote

So what I'm looking for, is on the one hand some way to change the initial equipment and stats of Cait Sith and Vincent.

Is this for PSOne or PC? If PC, the data should be somewhere within the file FF7.exe . It should be visible somewhere. Someone who knows exactly how the character data is structured and has Cait / Vincent's original stats to hand *should* be able to tell you what string to look for with a hex editor (hex editing's not that hard really anyway).

Quote
I've heard something about their stats being dependant on those of the other members when they're joining your team,

New characters join at a level determined by Cloud's level, I think. That's all that springs to mind on the matter.

Quote
Next, I'm aware there are ways to modify the supply in stores, respectively the prices, but I didn't come around any appropriate tool yet, nor do I know which files this information is located in.

This is still all W.I.P. There's been some work on changing the prices of items in stores, but that's about it as far as I know. I believe that NFITC is building a shop editor, and that Kudistos has been doing some work on finding the appropriate data... They might be able to offer some info.

Quote
Further, I don't think this is easily possible, but if someone knows a way to bind materia to certain characters or even to weapons/armor, that'd be great.

Ish. You could either prevent the game from ever enabling materia selection (by using METEOR). As for 'binding' materia to specific characters, that's not something I'd know how to do. You'd have to alter the code of the kernel (not the KERNEL.BIN) - and doing that, you'd be on your own.

The big issue would be Yuffie. If you prevented the player from altering and equipping materia, then when they're stolen, the player is forced into a No Materia Game unless you disable the 'theft' in METEOR somehow.

Quote
As for how the skills will be available, I'm intending to modify a few of the materia that can't be found anywhere but only bought at stores to hold all the skills a certain character should be able to learn and make them their initial equipment.

This is quite doable.

Quote
All skills are listed in the order of learning. Included are a few spells such as Blind or Hastega, which don't exist in the game, but are meant to be created.

Be aware that, due to a bug, enemies aren't affected by Darkness. Use Fury instead. Also, find my thread on attack animations to make your life far easier when pairing spells with visual effects.

Quote
Thief/Ninja - Yuffie
Skills: Steal, Throw, Escape, Mug, Coin, Morph, Remove
Other Materia: Gil Plus, Pre-Emptive, Speed Plus
Limits: None

Be aware that yellow materia only confer the highest-level skill on the gem. Thus Mug replaces Steal. You can't have a single 'Yuffie command materia' with each skill unlocked at a particular level. You *can* have yellow materia that don't confer any skills until they've reached level two, though.

Disabling limit breaks is not possible. You can, however, replace a limit with a spell / summon / enemy skill. You can even produce your own to be used as part of a limit.

Quote
Blue Mage - Cait Sith
Skills: All(?) Enemy Skills, Manipulate
Other Materia: Chocobo Lure, Underwater
Limits: None

See above on limits.

Quote
Black Mage - Red XIII
Skills: Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Tremor, Bio, Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Quake, Biora, Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga, Earthquake, Bioga, Comet, Freeze, Break, Tornado, Flare, Cometeo, Ultima
Other Materia: Magic Plus, perhaps Magic Counter
Limits: Lv.1 - spell (tier 1) hitting all enemies, Lv.2 W-Magic (tier 2), Lv.3 W-Magic, all enemies (tier 3), Lv.4 Quadra Magic (tier4)

See above on limits: you cannot replace them with commands.

Quote
Arcane Mage - Vincent
Skills: Demi, Mini, Blind, Confu, Slow, Demara, Silence, Toad, Berserk, Sleepel, Demaga, Slowaga, Stop, Death
Other Materia: None
Limits: Perhaps Hades or some unique spell that inflicts several status changes, or leave him with his original transformations.

Limits can be replaced by summons.

Quote
Berserker - Barret (I'm not too happy with this, though it wouldn't probably be bad, gameplay-wise.)
Skills: X-Attack (after lots of AP), Flash
Other Materia: HP-Absorb (linked to Slash All), Cover, Counter Attack (probably multiple ones, with different leveling requirements), HP Plus
Limits: None
Notes: Will always wear accessory that inflicts the berserk status.

You can't force accessories. You can, however, write an AI script that forces the Berserk status.

Quote
Summoner - Aeris (might be more appropriate for her, since the usefulness of summons - excluding KOTR - usually decreases towards the endgame anyway.)
Skills: All Summons in the usual order, except of Hades, provided he becomes part of Vincent's setup.
Other Materia: Magic Plus, MP Plus, perhaps MP Turbo
Limits: Either simply free of charge summons or some exclusive ones or W-Summon.

I don't think spells cast by limits ignore MP costs. You could produce a couple of new spells, visually identical to others, that cost 0 MP though.

Quote
This and maybe a couple more of some newish skills, which could allow to break enemies stats for example, would be fine, I guess.

Difficult to do. There's a Def/MDef modifier (Dragon Force) and a full-stat modifier (Hero Drink); making a skill that only reduces Dex or Luck would involve lots of AI scripting. It'd be doable, but not trivial.

Quote
Cid - Don't really know, he gets aboard too late to make for an effective white mage, so I'd probably let him have Tifa's part and simply call it Dragoon.

Call him a paladin and give him white magic. Appears when Aeris disappears anyways.
« Last Edit: 2010-02-02 05:27:23 by Bosola »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #2 on: 2010-02-02 10:56:14 »
Quote
Next, I'm aware there are ways to modify the supply in stores, respectively the prices, but I didn't come around any appropriate tool yet, nor do I know which files this information is located in.

This is still all W.I.P. There's been some work on changing the prices of items in stores, but that's about it as far as I know. I believe that NFITC is building a shop editor, and that Kudistos has been doing some work on finding the appropriate data... They might be able to offer some info.

Ah, yes, the shops; that brings back memories :-D

Anyway, most of what I found out (for the PC version) is here. Unfortunately, the layout isn't very clear, but if you follow everything, you should be able to change what it sold in shops, how much it costs and what the shopkeepers say. Names and dialogue in shops starts at 0x5219C8, items/materia sold starts at 0x521E18 of the exe file and prices start at 0x523858. In the PSX version, everything is in SHOPMENU.MNU, except the master materia multiplier; AFAIK no-one knows where that is for the PSX.

nfitc1

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #3 on: 2010-02-02 14:03:15 »
A Shop Editor..... Wow. It was a year ago that I had any desire to make such a thing. Granted, it'd still be great to have, but like I said in Kudistos's thread, there's no good pointer to shops that I can grab from the executable. It's unlikely that those addresses will change seeing as the executable is unlikely to undergo another version upgrade. I can hard-code the addresses used in the executable, but I really don't like that practice. I'm currently working on......three things? The idea of the New Game+, Project "Tiny Bronco" (which I don't want to talk about :( ), and something completely un-related to FF or SquareEnix so I won't bore everyone about it. A shop editor would be cake after what I've done with WM, but you'd have to wait for it.

Quote
Further, I don't think this is easily possible, but if someone knows a way to bind materia to certain characters or even to weapons/armor, that'd be great.

It's bound to be possible since you can see Sephiroth's and Young Cloud's Materia during the Kalm flashback but can't do anything with it. I don't know how to do this since it's not in the KERNEL.BIN ;).

And about Aeris, she'd make a better Red-Wizard/Summoner. One of those grand magic users like Tellah was. Tifa might make the best White Mage. You can have her at almost any time.

Marc

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #4 on: 2010-02-02 22:38:30 »
Thief/Ninja - Yuffie
Skills: Steal, Throw, Escape, Mug, Coin, Morph, Remove
Other Materia: Gil Plus, Pre-Emptive, Speed Plus
Limits: None

Blue Mage - Cait Sith
Skills: All(?) Enemy Skills, Manipulate
Other Materia: Chocobo Lure, Underwater
Limits: None

Black Mage - Red XIII
Skills: Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Tremor, Bio, Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Quake, Biora, Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga, Earthquake, Bioga, Comet, Freeze, Break, Tornado, Flare, Cometeo, Ultima
Other Materia: Magic Plus, perhaps Magic Counter
Limits: Lv.1 - spell (tier 1) hitting all enemies, Lv.2 W-Magic (tier 2), Lv.3 W-Magic, all enemies (tier 3), Lv.4 Quadra Magic (tier4)

Arcane Mage - Vincent
Skills: Demi, Mini, Blind, Confu, Slow, Demara, Silence, Toad, Berserk, Sleepel, Demaga, Slowaga, Stop, Death
Other Materia: None
Limits: Perhaps Hades or some unique spell that inflicts several status changes, or leave him with his original transformations.

On to the somewhat tougher calls...

Berserker - Barret (I'm not too happy with this, though it wouldn't probably be bad, gameplay-wise.)
Skills: X-Attack (after lots of AP), Flash
Other Materia: HP-Absorb (linked to Slash All), Cover, Counter Attack (probably multiple ones, with different leveling requirements), HP Plus
Limits: None
Notes: Will always wear accessory that inflicts the berserk status.

Monk - Tifa
Skills: Sense, Deathblow, 2xAttack, 4xAttack, W-Item
Other Materia: maybe Long Range (after lots of AP)
Limits: Default ones.

White Mage - Aeris (She would obviously suit a white mage very well, the only downside is her early death, after which the need for a healer doesn't exactly decline, so probably someone else should take over this role from the very beginning. Tifa would be a rather valid option, though it would be sad, regarding her unique weapons and limits.)  :|
Skills: Cure, Poisona, Barrier, MBarrier,Cura, Esuna, Life, Haste, Regen, Curaga, Reflect, Wall, Resist, Hastega, Full Cure, Revive
Other Materia: Magic Plus, perhaps Magic Counter
Limits: Likely the same as the Black Mage.

Summoner - Aeris (might be more appropriate for her, since the usefulness of summons - excluding KOTR - usually decreases towards the endgame anyway.)
Skills: All Summons in the usual order, except of Hades, provided he becomes part of Vincent's setup.
Other Materia: Magic Plus, MP Plus, perhaps MP Turbo
Limits: Either simply free of charge summons or some exclusive ones or W-Summon.

Cloud - Well... hard to decide. I was planning on giving him some elemental swords but that alone won't do. Adding Mime would be an option, but still a bit clumsy for a main character. Then again, there are still some spells to be allotet, such as DeBarrier and Dispell. This and maybe a couple more of some newish skills, which could allow to break enemies stats for example, would be fine, I guess.

Cid - Don't really know, he gets aboard too late to make for an effective white mage, so I'd probably let him have Tifa's part and simply call it Dragoon. This would furthemore be fortunate, in that you wouldn't have to start out with all the melees.

So, any help/recommendations would be greatly appreciated. :)

My own suggestions :

Cloud : Paladin (Knight + White Mage).  Starts out with weak white magic so by the end of disc one he should be a potent replacement for the next character.  You could also give him elemental swords as it fits with the job description.

Aeris : White Mage.  Cloud's later abilities would solve that issue.

Tifa : Monk.

Barret : Tank-type character such as a fighter or a berserker as you suggest.

Red XIII : I see him more as a blue mage/summoner type of character.

Yuffie : Thief works well.

Caith Sith : Bard/Dancer.  So he's as useless at his job as he is in the game.  Plus it kinda works with the megaphone.

Vincent : Black Mage.  So much more fitting for Vinny.

Cid : Dragoon.  All his limits fit too.

titeguy3

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #5 on: 2010-02-03 12:50:06 »

My own suggestions :

Cloud : Paladin (Knight + White Mage).  Starts out with weak white magic so by the end of disc one he should be a potent replacement for the next character.  You could also give him elemental swords as it fits with the job description.

Aeris : White Mage.  Cloud's later abilities would solve that issue.

Tifa : Monk.

Barret : Tank-type character such as a fighter or a berserker as you suggest.

Red XIII : I see him more as a blue mage/summoner type of character.

Yuffie : Thief works well.

Caith Sith : Bard/Dancer.  So he's as useless at his job as he is in the game.  Plus it kinda works with the megaphone.

Vincent : Black Mage.  So much more fitting for Vinny.

Cid : Dragoon.  All his limits fit too.

You don't have a red mage!!  :-o

I'm glad to see somebody remembers the dragoon though. Cid's a dragoon, hands down.
There's no problem with not having a white mage, but since there's no black mage character, I say associate everyone with an element and give them that magic:

Cloud (Lightning): Knight: Give his weapons really interesting damage calculation stats, that'll be the source of his strength.

Aeris (Holy): White Mage/Summoner -- the MP Powerhouse character

Tifa (Ice): Monk 2xCut -->4xCut works.

Barret (Earth): Berserker, but don't start him out berserk'd. Give him the berserk magic spell and have his AI set to restore his health when he uses it on himself.

Red XIII (Fire): Blue Mage

Yuffie (Water): Thief: steal-->mug

Cait Sith (Poison): I like the concept of a bard...give him some white magic like esuna and regen and at a super high level, full-cure, but make the bulk of his stuff stat boosting magic.

Vincent (Gravity): Red mage

Cid (Wind): Dragoon: Slash all-->flash is perfect for Cid
« Last Edit: 2010-02-04 23:21:03 by titeguy3 »

sithlord48

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #6 on: 2010-02-03 15:12:32 »
i like the idea... of a char class for ff7 would make the game quite new...

Cloud: i would lean toward a palley. knight w/ some White magic later on (after aerith is gone or soon before)
                             Big Guard and white wind are a must for abilitys if you go palley w/ cloud.

Aerith: this is the easiest char.. white mage all the way (some summons might work too.) holy type spells would really tie in to the story good too...

Tifa: monk is perfect but don't forget at higher levels monks can heal themselves, and maybe a cure 1 or 2 w/ all would be good to help healing later in the game (its not much but its something)

Barret: this is a hard call beserker, is a good suggestion. but a generic tank type would suit him well also w/ some mixed abilities.

yuffiee, very easy theif..mug should be her standard attack at higher levels,

cid, is also pretty easy dragoon, its just him.. w/ limits like jump and a spear for a weapon its just to easy...

the rest are hard cause they don't really fit a mold to well.. (ok vincent leans toward some kind of black mage)

vincent, is for sure a type of black mage...idk exactly what kind but some black magic is perfered..(dark knight...?)

caih sith, give him a job as useless as he is, or make is this where he could be useful, i support the blue mage idea, bard is a good choice cause of the megaphone.

Red XII, is prolly one of the harder ones to call (a hairclip is his weapon....) could be the other half of vincent. as in if you lean vincent toward archine mage , then make red XIII black mage , i find him to be the hardest one to place in a "class"

Timu Sumisu

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #7 on: 2010-02-03 15:26:34 »
I'd vouch red13 as a blue mage. whenever i got him, i always tended to give him enemy skill (ye get it at the same time), and he kind fits with the kimari style of blue mage (who better to learn monster attacks than a beast).

The element per character also works well - as to have a defined black magic user really limits part composition. cloud is there, any boss/zone that has regular elemental weaknesses, you'll bring the black mage along, so you'd only really choose one character, whereas by having every character linked to an element, there is a bit more versatility, (if you are grouping for the element, then yes your still only effectively choosing the htird party member, but the mage isnt always the same character)

jardart

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #8 on: 2010-02-04 19:47:07 »
Is this for PSOne or PC? If PC, the data should be somewhere within the file FF7.exe . It should be visible somewhere. Someone who knows exactly how the character data is structured and has Cait / Vincent's original stats to hand *should* be able to tell you what string to look for with a hex editor (hex editing's not that hard really anyway).
It's for the PC version. Well, I've got myself into hexediting a bit now, so if someone knows where the characer data is stored, I'd be very pleased to know. ^^

You could either prevent the game from ever enabling materia selection (by using METEOR).
I had a brief look at Meteor, but wasn't able to figure out how to disable the materia selection. Would be great if you could offer some more detailed info.

The big issue would be Yuffie. If you prevented the player from altering and equipping materia, then when they're stolen, the player is forced into a No Materia Game unless you disable the 'theft' in METEOR somehow.
Oh true, the theft is indeed a problem, one way or the other. Totally forgot about it. Unfortunately I don't exactly know what to look for in Meteor considering I'm all new to this, I'll have another try later on though. It should however also be possible to do it in the ff7.exe, right? If we'd only know the according strings...

Be aware that, due to a bug, enemies aren't affected by Darkness. Use Fury instead. Also, find my thread on attack animations to make your life far easier when pairing spells with visual effects.
So that's why it always seemed so uneffective to me, thanks for that. Thread found, will definitely come in handy.

Be aware that yellow materia only confer the highest-level skill on the gem. Thus Mug replaces Steal. You can't have a single 'Yuffie command materia' with each skill unlocked at a particular level. You *can* have yellow materia that don't confer any skills until they've reached level two, though.
Another issue I didn't have in mind. Thanks for pointing it out. Due to this and the fact that I can only use 5 out of 6 slots on green materia, it turns out that just non-findable materia won't be enough to hold all the abilities anymore. Maybe I'm lucky enough to find the strings of the collectable items in the ff7.exe, so I can apply some changes there, if not though, I'll just use some late game/hard to collect materia to make up for the missing ones.

jardart

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #9 on: 2010-02-04 19:59:09 »
Ah, yes, the shops; that brings back memories :-D

Anyway, most of what I found out (for the PC version) is here. Unfortunately, the layout isn't very clear, but if you follow everything, you should be able to change what it sold in shops, how much it costs and what the shopkeepers say. Names and dialogue in shops starts at 0x5219C8, items/materia sold starts at 0x521E18 of the exe file and prices start at 0x523858. In the PSX version, everything is in SHOPMENU.MNU, except the master materia multiplier; AFAIK no-one knows where that is for the PSX.
It took me a while, but I eventually managed to find all the corresponding strings and which shops they affect. Cheers! :)
Since it will be more comfortable for the upcoming work and might also be useful to others who want to apply some changes to the shops, I've also decided to archive the whole lot and upped a list of it. (Only bothered with the materia shops though, as they are the only ones of concern to me so far.) View it here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgOOzQje_GxYdFhqOUFsSW93cl9zWnp1M2hnTEpZb1E&hl=en

Edit: Many interesting suggestions regarding the classes. Assigning an element to each character is a neat idea which could offer some interesting gameplay. However, this is not quite what I'm focusing on with this mod, as I'm leaning towards more restricted characters, like in FF9 for instance. I will keep this in mind though. Having a few slightly mixed up classes like paladin, white mage/summoner, red mage and the like, sounds reasonable though, so I'd probably go that way after all.
In any way, I'll leave leave this up for discussion until I'm done with the more basic stuff, like materia, stats etc.
« Last Edit: 2010-02-04 20:13:21 by jardart »

Bosola

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #10 on: 2010-02-04 23:19:59 »

Quote
I had a brief look at Meteor, but wasn't able to figure out how to disable the materia selection. Would be great if you could offer some more detailed info.

You'd have to ask someone with a bit more experience using METEOR...

Quote
Oh true, the theft is indeed a problem, one way or the other. Totally forgot about it. Unfortunately I don't exactly know what to look for in Meteor considering I'm all new to this, I'll have another try later on though. It should however also be possible to do it in the ff7.exe, right? If we'd only know the according strings...

No, I'm pretty sure you'd have to look at the field file for the theft 'scene' and edit it out that way.

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Another issue I didn't have in mind. Thanks for pointing it out. Due to this and the fact that I can only use 5 out of 6 slots on green materia, it turns out that just non-findable materia won't be enough to hold all the abilities anymore. Maybe I'm lucky enough to find the strings of the collectable items in the ff7.exe, so I can apply some changes there, if not though, I'll just use some late game/hard to collect materia to make up for the missing ones.

The data for where materia show up, and where they are sold, isn't in the ff7.exe file, but in the field files and the SHOPMENU.MNU files. Anyway, so long as you disable materia editing, it doesn't matter what shows up on the field and what the player collects, because they won't be able to do anything with found materia except sell them anyway.

Masa-Buster

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #11 on: 2010-02-05 03:35:21 »
This is a pretty damn good idea !!! Never thought about FF7 with forced Character Classes... heres what I see them as:

Cloud: Kinight (Paladin), Making Aeris a healer could be a problem, when she dies your not getting healed anymore, so maybe turn Cloud into something like what Cecil is in FF4, but to heal a little more.

Barret: Gunner (Maybe?) It would make sense, but then, what would Vincent be?

Tifa: Monk (DUH) This makes total sense, but maybe make her a Monk with weak Black mage Spells, to make up for the start of the game before you get Red XIII

Aeris: White mage. Just until she dies. maybe while she's alive give her stronger Healing spells like, maybe Curaga just before she dies, or maybe a little bit earlier.

Red XIII: Either a Black Mage, or Berserker. Red XIII what he is, would make sense to be a Berserker, but making him a Black Mage would kinda make sense, but then, if Barret is a Gunner, and Red XIII is a Berserker, than either Vincent or Yuffie would have to be the Black mage.

Yuffie: Ninja/Theif Don't argue. This is the perfect idea. No comment.

Vincent: Red Mage/Black Mage : VINCENT!!!! This guy is the only person left for Black Mage, or Red Mage spot! If Red XIII is a Berserker, than this guy has to be a Black mage. But Considering you get him so late in the game, it would be hard to get Vincent without a black mage in my opinion.

Thats just my ideas, hope you like !

Masa-Buster


---EDIT---
FORGOT ABOUT CAIT SITH!

Cait Sith: this opens up some choices. Either make him a Red/Blue/Black mage, or a summoner. Honestly, I think he should be a mix between Red Magic and Summoning Magic, but with his Red Magic kind of lowered in power. Just me.
« Last Edit: 2010-02-05 03:38:24 by Masa-Buster »

Bosola

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #12 on: 2010-02-05 04:03:51 »
I don't think it's productive speculating how to build classes until we've established exactly what can be done. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but an awful lot of the ideas here wouldn't be very easy to implement with the tools we have and the limits the game places on us.

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Cait Sith (Poison): I like the concept of a bard...give him some white magic like esuna and regen and at a super high level, full-cure, but make the bulk of his stuff stat boosting magic.

Stat boosting magic? How? You can alter Vit and Spirit modifiers (as per Dragon Force) or the 'all stats' modifier (as per Hero Drinks). The rest would involve laborious AI scripting.

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Cloud: i would lean toward a palley. knight w/ some White magic later on (after aerith is gone or soon before)
                             Big Guard and white wind are a must for abilitys if you go palley w/ cloud.

You'd have to make these magic proper as opposed to Enemy Skills. Fine, but you're going to have to sacrifice certain spells if you want to be able to access the proper animations for these two abilities, for reasons too lengthy to go into.

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Aerith: this is the easiest char.. white mage all the way (some summons might work too.) holy type spells would really tie in to the story good too...

You'd have to create some Holy-weak enemies, though that's fairly trivial.

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yuffiee, very easy theif..mug should be her standard attack at higher levels,

Getting the game to replace Atk with Mug. but only for Yuffie? This just isn't going to happen, I'm afraid.

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vincent, is for sure a type of black mage...idk exactly what kind but some black magic is perfered..(dark knight...?)

Could be done. You'd need to shift his stats somewhat to make it a bit better balanced, though, otherwise he'd be even more horribly frail than he is already.


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Caith Sith : Bard/Dancer.  So he's as useless at his job as he is in the game.  Plus it kinda works with the megaphone.

Why do you say Cait Sith is useless? Take a look at his stat curve and the details of Slots (along with the reel manipulation method)...

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Barret (Earth): Berserker, but don't start him out berserk'd. Give him the berserk magic spell and have his AI set to restore his health when he uses it on himself.

Easier to give him a Berserk-type spell that can't be targeted and restores HP...


At any rate, we need to establish what *can* be done with what the game gives us, before thinking up class systems. And then there's the job of balancing the game, sorting out animations, and implementing the methods we've chosen. I probably sound rather curt, but that's just the way it is.

The only system that would likely work would be one where all characters have sixteen materia slots on each weapon, materia selection is disabled and all materia that the characters will ever have appear on them right at the beginning. Getting this to work with Cait Sith and Vincent would be problematic, but could be done in theory with a bit more research into the ff7.exe file. That could take a couple of days of research, or it could never happen. Connecting characters with specific materia is a complete non-starter. Creating new spells involves significant limits. Altering limit breaks is not trivial. Nor is AI coding if you've never worked with assember before. We'd also have to modify the field files to stop Yuffie from stealing materia. Let's focus on these problems before thinking up classes.
« Last Edit: 2010-11-12 22:06:30 by Bosola »

titeguy3

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #13 on: 2010-02-05 11:49:33 »
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Cait Sith (Poison): I like the concept of a bard...give him some white magic like esuna and regen and at a super high level, full-cure, but make the bulk of his stuff stat boosting magic.

Stat boosting magic? How, exactly? You can alter Vit and Spirit modifiers (as per Dragon Force) or the 'all stats' modifier (as per Hero Drinks). The rest would involve laborious AI scripting.

It's pretty trivial to change up the magic spells of the game and put some stats modifiers in there. As for the different kinds, they are limited but they're definitely there, there are two stat modifiers IIRC (one for dragon force and one for Hero Drink), and then there's The "lucky girl" status effect which is rarely ever used in the game. It isn't much, but how many do you need exactly? Cait Sith doesn't need any spells really, since his slots can result in so many different techniques.

Everything I listed is do-able. From a broad perspective, there's actually very little we *can't* do with a little extra effort.
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Barret (Earth): Berserker, but don't start him out berserk'd. Give him the berserk magic spell and have his AI set to restore his health when he uses it on himself.

Easier to give him a Berserk-type spell that can't be targeted and restores HP...

I'll give you that one...

Altering limit breaks is not trivial.
Am I missing something? It's been my impression that you can change anyone's limit breaks to be any other technique in the game at the click of a mouse using WallMarket. That sounds pretty trivial to me.

As per AI editing, when it comes to Assembly languages, the FF7 AI script uses a pretty simplistic stack-based one. I managed to teach it to myself in a week and I'm fully aware of what it's capable of.

Bosola

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #14 on: 2010-02-05 12:47:57 »
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It's pretty trivial to change up the magic spells of the game and put some stats modifiers in there. As for the different kinds, they are limited but they're definitely there, there are two stat modifiers IIRC (one for dragon force and one for Hero Drink),

Yeah, but there's only those two. It'd be possible to implement others with AI code, but it might not be simple for those who haven't encountered anything like assembly before.

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and then there's The "lucky girl" status effect which is rarely ever used in the game.

I'd forgotten all about 'lucky girl', actually.

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Everything I listed is do-able. From a broad perspective, there's actually very little we *can't* do with a little extra effort.

One thing I should bring up: you can gain quite a bit of flexibility if you give spells the 'cast attack X after' attribute. It's clumsy, but it's a good way of, say, creating a Darkside spell, or creating a spell that both inflicts and cures certain statuses. It looks a bit odd, but it *does* work.

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Am I missing something? It's been my impression that you can change anyone's limit breaks to be any other technique in the game at the click of a mouse using WallMarket. That sounds pretty trivial to me.

I don't mean changing what characters can do for limits. I meant editing the limits themselves. There should be strings somewhere in ff7.exe that hold the data, but animations can't be changed AFAIK. What you *can* do is create spells, and then use these as limits, though you've only two unused 'slots' in the magic section if you want to take advantage of the full range of visual effects.

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As per AI editing, when it comes to Assembly languages, the FF7 AI script uses a pretty simplistic stack-based one. I managed to teach it to myself in a week and I'm fully aware of what it's capable of.

I'm sure you did. I have no issue with ASM either. But someone who hasn't done any before might feel intimidated, that it's beyond their reach, or that it isn't worth it for their project. Not that it's all that hard once you get into it.

It sounds like you have a beef with me. The post was curt, as I took pains to point out, but we need to be realistic. We need to recognize what's doable first, before we start making plans for character classes - else we might be scuppered by technical limitations before we even begin.
« Last Edit: 2010-02-05 12:54:25 by Bosola »

titeguy3

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #15 on: 2010-02-05 14:40:30 »
No beef, this just strikes me as an intriguing project and your post seemed a little discouraging.

Izban

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #16 on: 2010-02-12 03:45:28 »
i was toying with this sort of idea a while back. i almost got it to beta stage but i canned it because i was never able to get meteor working properly.

how i was going about it was like this

cloud a Paladin kind of class because he seemed more focused on attack based on giant sword with miner heals
attackplus-pally 1(cure 1/16 100ap, antidote 500ap)

barret was a knight/fighter class tweeked slightly so that his machine guns were multi targeting
cover-hpplus

tifa was a battle monk high attack and speed but lacking survivability
speedplus-charged attack(custom spell that uses lucky girl)

aerith cleric heals and stat buffs
mpplus-white 1(cure 1/8 100ap,esuna 500ap, physhield 1/16 1000ap sense

red was the black mage seeing as he is the wisest it seemed appropriate
black 1(fire blizzard thunder 100ap, quake aero 500ap, demi 1000ap - mpplus

i only got to the end of midgar with it and it worked out ok although these are just test ap values but you get the idea, if you were to use meteor to close off the materia tab or do a sephy style not touchy my stuff and use events like the stolen materia to change the materia of the party and enforced class mod is more then possible and you wouldn't even have to change the limits because they fit the characters.

now if you wanted to get really tricky about how you would do some of the spells you could do some ai editing to make each spell while the same level based on the character level there stats and so forth but for something like that you would have to do something like SecondAdvent's leveling enemys.

any who just my 2cents

gjoerulv

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Re: FFVII - Enforced Character Classes Mod
« Reply #17 on: 2010-02-12 09:46:06 »
lol it would be hard to please everyone. I think it's better to assign materias than jobs. Then the materias kinda decides what job they'll be.
THIS IS HOW TO MAKE ALL CHARACTER BADASS!

Cloud:  Dark knightish Strong physical attacks + decent black magic, status change materias + added cut, black magic + added cut. Throw / Coin.

Barret:  Tank type mixed with berserk type sounds good. Cover, deathblow + counter, slash-all, berserk.

Tifa:  Monk/White mage. Counter attack. 2x attack / 4x.

Aeris / Aerith:  White mage + Summons sounds good. Magic+ (materia).

Red XIII:  Red mage anyone? Speed+(materia), standard white and black magic; Sense and Mega all

Yuffie:  Ninja / Thief. Steal/Mug, Status changing materia + steal as well, Poison + Added cut, counter attack x2, Speed+.

Cait Sith: Blue Mage. Enemy Skill, Manipulate, Luck+.

Vincent:  Black Mage. Magic+, Strong black magics + Magic counter, Weak black magic + quadra magic, Summons and 2x Magic.

Cid:  Dragoon / Time mage. Long range, Demi, Comet, Time, Escape / Remove, Morph and 2x Item.