Author Topic: [FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY) (Read 1261774 times)

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2025 on:** 2013-09-17 18:02:20 »

Also, as you read the script you see that Cloud was a complete loner. He got into fights, was antisocial, and had no friends. It is extremely likely "We" is wrong. He is also talking about himself in that passage, so "we" wouldn't make much sense anyway. And of course, Luksy used "I". Placing any faith into the original translation is fairly foolish because it is awash with mistakes.

Also note that Covarr is going to go through all the text and point out any errors he sees. Grammar issues such as numbers are small fry, and not even writers all agree on what is what. "It was five years ago, I was 16" would look silly to me. I tried to add in consistency when talking about dates and times. "There are four balls" "It was 5 years ago, I was 16". I may change that if Covarr thinks it needs doing on his run through.

I am not plucking things from thin air, basically. I do think about all this.

Consistency is most important with numbers. I am looking at those links, and others, and there is disagreement even there as to what is accepted. It's basically up to the writer. I don't see anything wrong with "It was 5 years ago". Not to mention a lot of the time, the dialogue boxes look much better for using numbers rather than spelling it out.

We'll see what transpires in the proof check!

Ver Greeneyes · « **Reply #2026 on:** 2013-09-17 18:38:54 »

Yeh, even those articles I linked said there's no real consensus here, and I think it differs on a case by case basis. For instance I agree that "It was 5 years ago" looks fine, perhaps because 'year' is a unit - but e.g. "There were five of them" looks more natural to me than "There were 5 of them". Either way it's pretty minor and I have a lot of confidence that you're giving this all the attention it needs

Kaldarasha · « **Reply #2027 on:** 2013-09-17 19:16:54 »

It depends on how important a number is. If you write 'five' it doesn't interrupt the flow of reading, but a '5' is much more visible and imaginable (because of connection to math you have a clearer imagine how much a 5 is) and it will interrupt the flow because your brain must interpreted the '5' into the word 'five'.
It possible to write a word up to twenty, everything above would be hard to read and is harder to imagine, which means a lose of the read flow.

"Five years, or so." is better then "5 years, or so." because the speaker isn't sure of it, so the number isn't important
While "It was 5 years ago,..." Is better then " It was five years ago,...." in the context of FF7, because the number is important for the whole story.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2028 on:** 2013-09-17 20:12:30 »

Here's a great distillation of different Manual of Styles to help explain what most novels, magazines, newspapers do:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/how-write-numbers?page=all

Again, standard practice (which you've seen throughout your entire life) is for 1-9 to be spelled out, and for 10+ to be digits -- but there are exceptions, and that article does a good job of explaining what they are, and why they exist.

I didn't realize that this was being COMPLETELY redone from the ground up? If anything, the few examples I've read seem to indicate that the original translation was largely very close! Some sentences are EXACTLY the same, which is surprising to me.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2029 on:** 2013-09-17 20:39:31 »

I do use the original work as well. I use that, Luksy's translation, and my own localisation to provide what I feel is the best it can be. So sometimes, the original was nicely done, but every map has had numerous text changed. If you look at the other maps, the original translation made some serious mistakes. Luksy's translation supersedes the original, and where there is a conflict, I ask him. If that doesn't suffice, I go to other Japanese speakers and get their opinion.

Mostly though, the original suffered with awkward dialogue. Sometimes you get totally crazy and bad dialogue , see here:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=11649.msg161355#msg161355

For Yuffie's dialogue further down. You should read that thread too.

Every piece of dialogue has been checked 3 times now (I am currently completing the 3rd revision walk through). The 4th time through is grammar corrections only. After that this will be considered "finished". The non dialogue is already finished.

luksy · « **Reply #2030 on:** 2013-09-18 01:39:00 »

Just wanted to chip in that although Dan's singing my praises I do get things wrong as I'm not a native Japanese speaker.

That said, "I/We thought she wasn't going to make it." was『死んでしまうかと思った』in the original Japanese. While this could indeed technically go either way when it comes to whether Cloud is talking about himself or everyone, the feeling I got from the entire scene is he means himself as it's directly related to the text that follows.

Also, coma is 昏睡 or コーマ, the Japanese text used 意識不明 which is simply unconscious.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2031 on:** 2013-09-18 01:41:25 »

I'd be unconscious if I had to learn that language.

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2032 on:** 2013-09-18 01:46:47 »

Silly English thinking it's context heavy. It's got NOTHING on Japanese. XD

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2033 on:** 2013-09-18 17:07:32 »

Wow, I can only imagine the amount of time it's taken to do this translation. It's a great project, and while I agree with a lot of what I've read, and the changes, there are still that grate on me. I guess it's impossible to please everyone, though. Especially with a game so beloved.

For example:

"You aren't from Wutai, are you?"

Being changed to:

"You are not of Wutai, are you?"

Still, you should make the translation how YOU want it to be, not how everyone else thinks. It's your project and, as I said, it's impossible to please everyone, so you should focus on pleasing yourself.

On side note: I wonder how much it would be to get Alex O. Smith to re-translate the game?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2034 on:** 2013-09-18 17:13:35 »

The people of the pagoda talk with varying degrees of older speak. That wasn't changed on a whim. It sounds more accurate to how it is supposed to actually sound. In fact a lot of Wutai is supposed to be like that. Some in the pagoda speak with really old tongues, and thus we used older English for those.

You need to stop using the original localisation as a basis of how it should sound... A lot of these changes are made because of how it SHOULD sound, based on the original Japanese.

using "aren't" completely destroys the feel that the character is designed to portray. Although, "are you" at the end is probably redundant.

Example:

Old
“Only those from Wutai may enter the tower!”{NEW}
“I'll have to ask for you to leave!”
------------------------------
“Hey! I can't stand liars!
Leave this tower at once!”

New
“Outsiders are strictly prohibited
from entering the pagoda.”{NEW}
“I'm afraid I must ask you
to leave.
------------------------------
“Fie!
To deceive people of one's
identity is an absolute affront!
Leave the pagoda at once!”

Now, call me crazy, but which of those looks right? They even placed "tower" in the original. Again, though, some of the grammar issues that do exist will be ironed out by Covarr.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2035 on:** 2013-09-18 17:49:21 »

Wow. If you're right about the need for "older speak" then the original translation is completely off!

I appreciate what you're attempting. It's very tricky to write "ye olde" speak and have it sound natural, too.

I do wonder how much an Alex O Smith translation would cost, though!

Covarr · « **Reply #2036 on:** 2013-09-18 17:59:53 »

ThunderPeel2001, I recommend you give this article by Mato a read.

Essentially, Japanese has a ton of context cues based strictly on phrasing that can tell you who is talking, their age, gender, and social class, and even to whom they're talking, based solely on the way they phrase things. Unfortunately, the original FF7 translation (and in fact most video game translations) near completely ignored this concept.

It's true that many of these things can't be translated super-precisely to English. We typically don't have numerous versions of a single verb just for varying levels of politeness. But we do have other ways of conveying the same concepts, such as by changing our sentence structure, or using more/fewer contractions, or using words that indicate a specific group where possible, etc. As an example, if someone uses the word "derriere" it's a safe bet they're a bit older than if they'd said "keister", and even moreso than "butt". "Buttocks" implies a doctor or scientist, "round" suggests a butcher, "bottom" suggests someone trying to be polite (perhaps a teacher), "ass" suggests crude or uneducated, etc.

In Wutai, these changes are going to be especially evident, as the original translation didn't even make an attempt to get this aspect of their speech correct. The hell of it is, this is nowhere near as "olde" as in the theatre in the gold saucer, which the original mislocalized into plain modern speech instead of something a bit older (we went full-on Shakespearian for this, and even had to do a fair bit of research to make sure we got it right).

edit: In regards to that link article I linked, I wanna be clear that you can absolutely trust Mato. He's one of the best in the business.

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2037 on:** 2013-09-18 18:15:00 »

Yikes

Based on that article, it seems ANY translation will only contain a part of the original intent. You can tell it's a woman just by her sentence structure! Crazy.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2038 on:** 2013-09-18 18:59:57 »

That's pretty much how it is. The better the localiser, the more personality and feel you will get out of the original character, while staying true to that character. Thanks for that, Covarr. A nice read.

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2039 on:** 2013-09-19 00:35:41 »

Translations are definitely tricky, and the sad thing is even the best will still lose a bit in the conversion. The term 'lost in translation' is quite an accurate term. That being said, a lot more can be maintained than usually is - it's one of the things I love about this project. I'm not sure it's possible to do better than they are!

Learning new languages is hard, especially certain ones (the pictograph languages (such as most Asian tongues) and English if you're not a native speaker are among the toughest), so a highly skilled translator/localizer is the next best thing. It's not perfect, but perfect can only be accomplished by learning the language. XD

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2040 on:** 2013-09-19 00:43:41 »

Well mark it in your diaries. It's taken I dunno how long, but the localisation of Final Fantasy VII is now complete.

Of course, I still need to have a lot of questions answered by Luksy, and Prince Lex still has to complete the Scottish dialect, but the actual localisation is done.

Huge monkey off my back. Thank you, and good night!

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2041 on:** 2013-09-19 00:47:17 »

How great! 8D Now to just anxiously (and with forced patience XD) wait for Lex! 8DDD

When are you gonna release it installer wise?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2042 on:** 2013-09-19 00:50:56 »

As soon as Lex has done the Scot dialogue. Covarr will prob have the grammar check done by then. I will now go back to working on menu overhaul fixes ready for reunion.

Luksy is also now working on ts again, and has already fixed 2012 flevel.

knightsoftheround · « **Reply #2043 on:** 2013-09-19 01:10:45 »

Excellent, that's when I wanted to play it anyways to it's all good!

There's a few other aspects I'm gonna keep an eye on here even after though. I like Cait Sith but the Iscar thing still sounds interesting* and i'm highly interested in the model upgrades!

Keep being awesome, Dan!

*I'm REALLY curious how you're gonna handle the Temple of the Ancients 'sacrifice' with Iscar. In the best meaning of curious, of course! 8D

ThunderPeel2001 · « **Reply #2044 on:** 2013-09-19 02:30:18 »

So... will people be able to install the new script without the menu upgrades?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2045 on:** 2013-09-19 02:31:34 »

First post.

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=11649.0

luksy · « **Reply #2046 on:** 2013-09-19 08:09:59 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2013-09-19 00:43:41

Well mark it in your diaries. It's taken I dunno how long, but the localisation of Final Fantasy VII is now complete.

Of course, I still need to have a lot of questions answered by Luksy, and Prince Lex still has to complete the Scottish dialect, but the actual localisation is done.

Huge monkey off my back. Thank you, and good night!

Awesome work, you've easily put in 2-3 times the amount of time (if not more...) compared to me and that's just on the text, looking forward to getting this whole thing done!

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2047 on:** 2013-09-19 12:38:41 »

Couldn't have done it at all without you. And you put in a load of work too!

In other news, another script error probably. The Typhon materia at the Ancient Forest is an item bag and not a red materia.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2048 on:** 2013-09-19 14:43:50 »

This one always bothered me.

Old
{YUFFIE}
“Oh man…
   'Materia Hunter {YUFFIE}'
   sounds like the last chapter of
   'Materia Forever'.”

New
{YUFFIE}
“Oh,man.
Feels like this is ‘Farewell,materia…’,
the final chapter of ‘{YUFFIE}:Materia Hunter’.”

Kaldarasha · « **Reply #2049 on:** 2013-09-19 15:01:00 »

I knew this would be an non-legal adding (

), but according to Yuffies character, I would say: ‘{YUFFIE}: The heroin Materia Hunter’ sounds much more like her.