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Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Question on 2016-09-29 19:28:19
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At the sector 5 reactor, president shinra recognises cloud, which should be impossible given that cloud was never in SOLDIER and was just a nameless infantryman. And nothing in the game suggests that Cloud had specifically let Shinra know he was ex-soldier and joined up with avalanche.
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Because cloud wears the uniform of Soldier. Which nobody else does recognize at Shinra.
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He could be mistaking him for Zack, similar height and build, spikey hair and the bright blue eyes which he does mention.
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He doesn't know Cloud. He just said "former SOLDIER" because his eyes were glowing. It's likely that there were reports of a SOLDIER working with AVALANCHE since those infantry were so eager to shoot him on sight.
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This was discussed by me and Luksy, because I was sure it had to be a translation error. It is made worse in the original localization if I recall. It's already been discussed somewhere else, but basically you are left with these 2 options:
1. Shinra personally congratulates all people who make it into Soldier, and Cloud is somehow expecting that he'll be remembered (Cloud says "long time no see", which is the main offending line). Shinra then tells him he can't be expected to remember every Soldier's name unless they are as great as Sephiroth. In other words, he meets every new member of Soldier for a very brief time to give out a medal or something.
2. This is forced exposition. The writers needed a way to introduce Sephiroth into the conversation. Think about it... how else were they going to get him mentioned here otherwise?
Personally I think it's probably both - but mainly number 2. The writers wanted to introduce Sephiroth here and had to manufacture something that seems very out of place. It's clearly bad exposition because no-one buys for a second that Cloud would say that out of nowhere. Which is why this thread exists :P
I guarantee you that this exposition will be left out of the remake, because they'll have a rethink.
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Well at that point, Cloud had his memories jumbled up and his SOLDIER memories were from what Zack said. Since Zack knows President Shinra, Cloud "knew" him too which is why he said that line.
Probably the best explanation was that President Shinra assumed that Cloud was ex-soldier based on his eyes and maybe whatever info he got about AVALANCHE. Or maybe its a remnant of an early script.
President Shinra assuming that Cloud is Zack wouldnt make sense because Zack was used as an experiment before being killed (which again doesnt make sense because if first class was so rare and valuable, Hojo wouldnt have been allowed to do that) and never "quit".
Theres one continuity error though, in the original FF7 game, SOLDIER first class wasn't as big of a deal as the other games like Crisis Core made them out to be, where 1st class is incredibly rare and everyone knows them by sight/name. Cloud claiming to be ex-first class would have fallen apart really quickly if first class was that famous because nobody would know who he was and Tifa would have wanted to look up info on Cloud (which would have been really easy if first class was as famous as Crisis Core made them out to be).
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There's absolutely no issue with shinra knowing cloud is an ex soldier.(even though he is not) His eyes and the reports from people concerning his past make that plausible. The issue is bad writing in that cloud is expecting to be remembered when he simply wouldn't. It's been done to shoehorn in sephiroth exposition. There is no way anyone in Cloud's position would say "long time no see" as if they were best buddies with the president. If you really want to stretch it and make a poor excuse you can maybe just say that clouds head is knackered and he is delusional.
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I've never played Crisis Core, but doesnt that make 1st class SOLDIERs to be super famous? Cloud at this point has his memories merged with some of Zack's so he could be expecting to be remembered. If Zack ever met President Shinra and mentioned it to Cloud, that might explain it as well.
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The original game makes no claims that people in Soldier are super famous—and Shinra explains that he wouldn't remember a Soldier's name unless they were as great as Sephiroth. It's possible they get some notice (Tifa asks Cloud if he will make the headlines, and he says he will try) - but not to the point of being on first name basis with the president. It has nothing to do with Zax or Cloud. If you switched Cloud with Zax in this scene, it would still be ridiculous to say "long time no see" as if they are best buddies being reunited. It's just quick and poor writing to bring Sephiroth into the discussion. It would have been better if they just didn't use the silly "long time no see" line at all. But if you do that it becomes very difficult to work a way of bringing Sephiroth into the discussion.
Maybe
"Oh, you're the Soldier. The one that joined this Avalanche or whatever. Tell me, traitor, what is your name?"
"Cloud!"
"Well, I can't be expected to remember every Soldier's name. You would have to be another Sephiroth."
It's still crap - but at least it doesn't make it sound like Cloud and President Shinra meet up for a drink now and then :P
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Crisis Core made 1st class SOLDIERs to be big deals. At least the three that we meet are and we don't even hear of another until Zack is promoted.
Somewhat contrary to this, we meet first class SOLDIER enemies somewhat late in the game so there are bound to be more.
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Admittedly I've never had a problem with this exchange in any version. The intent seemed to get through just fine. Going by the dialogue, President Shinra clearly knows nothing of Cloud beyond the news of an ex-SOLDIER joining Avalanche. Likewise, Cloud doesn't necessarily expect Shinra to remember him; the familiar greeting simply makes clear that they've met before (or so he thinks). A similar exchange happens minutes later with Reno in the slum church, except this time Cloud slips up.
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No, the second time is completely different. That is an exchange where Cloud's inner-self is prompting him to remember that he does know who these people are (at least that seems to be the overwhelming explanation given the other occurrences of his inner self). It is not any kind of "slip up". It's not remotely related.
#xy 168 128
{CLOUD}
“I don’t know who you are,
or where you’re from,but…”
------------------------------
#xy 168 128
{CLOUD}
“Or do I?”
------------------------------
#cy 64
{GRAY}I believe you do. <<<<< this is the real Cloud.
------------------------------
#xy 176 128
{CLOUD}
“Oh yeah…
I do know you.” [as in 'know you are from the Turks' very likely. Not "I know you are Reno"]
The Shinra dialogue is flawed, imho. It's flawed for the reason mentioned - Cloud states "Long time no see" [and it's the same meaning in japanese too] - a greeting that is only used when people are on first-name basis with one another. You do not go up to people you do not know using that dialogue. Nobody would. The only reason Cloud does is entirely due to bad writing - probably deliberate here as I said to shoe-horn in Sephiroth. Even Cloud (thinking he is Zax) wouldn't suppose that he is on first name basis with the president.
Even if Shinra does meet every Soldier briefly, the writing as-is does not give that impression at all. Even the dialogue that exists shows that Shinra doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sep. Writers are not perfect. :P
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What I mean by the Turks scene his that memory falters for a moment, an inversion of how he falsely remembers meeting the President, only this time his inner Cloud corrects him. And I'm guessing the Japanese version of that expression has a stricter use, but this being English it could be taken to simply mean "we met before". Maybe that's all the change that's needed.
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I agree that his memory is knackered; the issue isn't that. The issue is that he thinks he's on first name terms with the president - which he would not. There's nothing leading up to it and nothing after it that allows for that jump in logic. As I say, even if you factor in that he thinks his life is Zax's, it does not make any sense. I remember a few times thinking "huh" at the scene. I even took this to Luksy, the Japanese translator for the retranslation project, because I was sure it had to be some sort of mistake. The very fact I did that—and that this thread is here—should prove the exposition is bad - even if one can find an excuse for it. I just don't buy it. The writers can get away with it because we can just say "Yup. Cloud is bonkers." but it doesn't really satisfy scrutiny. It's a small thing anyway - there are far bigger issues with FF7s story as a whole, but, thankfully, it's mostly a well-written and clever fiction.
The OPs question is explainable - President Shinra has heard reports about a rogue ex-Soldier joining Avalanche and now he sees Cloud with blue Mako eyes talking about a time they met. My issue with this exposition is a different and worse one.
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Does that expression truly depend on being on a first name basis with the other party? If so, then perhaps they should have used a different choice of words - although who knows what the writer truly intended.
On the other hand, I think this exchange had to happen in some form even if Sephiroth was never created. Being Avalanche's first encounter with the President, players would have found it strange that the presence of one of Shinra's former elite troop passed by without comment. The exchange makes clear that yes, the President is aware of the traitor, and no, he doesn't remember or care the slightest bit about Cloud himself. With that out of the way, they don't need to bring it up in subsequent events. The opportunity to hint at Sephiroth again is a happy bonus.
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Yeah. If you go up to someone and say "It's been a while" "long time no see" you know the other person and they know you. The Japanese is pretty clear on it from what I can gather.
If they wanted to convey that he'd only met Shinra at some sort of inauguration ceremony, then they needed to make it far clearer.
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"We meet again, Mr. President" would probably do the job just as well then, much like how Aeris greets Cloud shortly after. It doesn't convey that it's been a long time like the original, but that's not a big deal.
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Maybe the original intent was for Zack to have met Shinra? Does that ever happen in Crisis Core?
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It wouldn't matter if it did. It's nothing to do with what Zax did or did not do. All Soldiers probably meet Shinra at some point very briefly (we can suppose) - but that will not explain away the poor dialogue stated above. I know I'm repeating myself, but that's as simple as this gets without complete conjecture or retconning. It is poor dialogue and poor exposition - the latter rather deliberately so. This is a writing problem because this is a fictional and imperfect story.
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How is it a writing problem if :
-Zack knew Shinra well enough to address him familiarly
-Cloud "remembers" this and reacts accordingly
Obviously at this point square had not filled in all the details and Zack was only a minor background character. They probably weren't thinking that far enough ahead.
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Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax. It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's. So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.
Again - it's poor writing. That's all it is. Even if they retcon it and show Zax toasting drinks in Shinra's office it will be poor writing. It is a conversation designed only to bring Sephiroth up. There isn't any other reason. There isn't any other explanation. If you give me enough time to conjure up reasons, I can make believe that the Midgardsormr met Shinra and played chess with him once upon a time over a luxurious meal in his office. There comes a point where you just have to accept that the writers either didn't notice this was an issue, or did and didn't care.
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Couldn't all this be explained by Shinra touring Hojo's lab while Cloud and Zack were being experimented on, before they escaped. Which would be why the president almost recognizes him, and why he (with parts of Zack's non zombie state memories) recognizes him back.
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That is still conjuring up plot that doesn't exist in the game to explain something that is purely lacking writing. See my post above. We can create any scenario we want - if we choose to. Plus I don't think your explanation is really all that believable given the dialogue that already exists.
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It doesn't seem that farfetched to me that President Shinra would have seen the experiment seeing as Hojo was just appointed by him, or at least getting a briefing with a file with both of their pictures, we do see them nonchalantly discussing "breeding" Aerith later. Not even to mention the place that the experiment took place was the SHINRA mansion.
For all we know Shinra just saw the pic of Tifa, Sephiroth and Zack after they replaced the town, and see's Zack's uniform/buster sword and mistakes him for him for a second. And then thinking back on the picture, regardless of if you are the extra soldier or not, he wouldn't remember your name too "unless you had become Sephiroth"
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OK. I'm done. I'm not going to repeat myself a fifth time :P
If we go down the road of inventing writing that isn't there, then literally anything can happen and anything can make sense.
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Because, as I have stated a few times, Zax would not know Shinra "well enough". Also, Zax would have had to tell Cloud the time he met Shinra and how they know each other well. Cloud is not a mind reader - he basis part of his life on the stories he was told by Zax. It is a big stretch of the imagination to suppose Zax knew Shinra well enough to be on a first name basis with him. Shinra himself even heavily implies in the same dialogue that he doesn't know any Soldier's name apart from Sephiroth's. So you've got a brick wall by Shinra's own words.
Apparently, according to the canon as established by the compilation, Cloud is apparently not basing stuff on what Zack told him - rather the Jenova cells are apparently feeding him memories from Zack. Apparently Jenova can read minds, and there's some collective shared consciousness bullcrap going on between people with Jenova cells.
I'm not trying to take away from your overall point, or condone this contrived plot-addition, but this is apparently the case, and the explanation for why Cloud seemingly remembers stuff he wasn't there to witness, or had no reasonable way of knowing.
I say apparently a bunch, because as anyone with half a mind realizes, that is a dumb reason, SE's established canon or not.
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Haha yeah. It's just a bullshit excuse after the fact. I always think it's even more desperate when the game company or original writers do it, too. Kojima is a master of bullshit after the fact.
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I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game - that's how Reunion works, and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater - he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation). That's in the Ultimania.
'Long time no see' is definitely rather informal as a greeting, but Cloud is also rather flippant and aloof in general at this point in the story. It could just be that he's greeting the president informally out of a lack of respect.
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That isn't the same as reading their minds by a long shot, though. Nowhere is that made clear in the game. And does it have some sort of range? When you start asking questions like those, there really isn't an answer. Cloud states quite clearly that he based his fake life on stories told by Zax. It still doesn't matter, even if mind reading was there, because the writing is still poor. :-D :P
No one says "long time no see" to someone they have never met. It is used to mean you have met someone before - and usually numerous times.
Anyway, we're going around in circles.
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=17169.msg244372#msg244372
Why can't it just be poor writing? Why does every inconsistency need an iron clad alibi?
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I mean, the idea of some sort of collective consciousness between Jenova recipients is kind of a core plot point of the game
Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.
- that's how Reunion works,
Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)
In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.
and how Sephiroth manages to appear to the player several times without ever leaving the crater
That's not at all how Sephiroth appears outside of the crater. The Sephiroth you encounter outside the crater is the Jenova that broke out of Shinra building taking on Sephiroth's form.
- he's imprinting himself on Jenova-infused people, the 'Sephiroth clones' (God, clone was such a poor choice of words in the original translation). That's in the Ultimania.
Where in the Ultimania is that? Even if it was though, the problem is that the Ultimania guide was released September 9, 2005.
Whatever in that guide has no bearing on whether or not something was thought up when the game was first made and released, and has no bearing on this discussion since this is a discussion on what was intended with the original not about what has been made the case post hoc through compilation ret-cons, which it is likely to contain given it was released only days before Advent Children, likely as a part of the FFVII compilation initiative.
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Hian is right. Unfortunately, this thread is still going because, for some reason, people cannot accept the writers are fallible. It's the same with nearly every single fiction that has a fanbase. I hardly ever hear "Yeah, the writers didn't think that far ahead" or "It's a plot hole." It's always some bizarre workaround created by the fanbase. It's the unwillingness to accept that a favourite game or story can have flaws. Even the greatest pieces of fiction have flaws or bad writing or lazy writing.
This is no exception. It's simply bad writing for the 1000th time.
I had a discussion with Covarr not long back about The Lord of the Rings. I absolutely hate that Tolkien brought Gandalf back. I think it was a terrible decision that undermines the fiction (the author of A Song of Ice and Fire, Martin, agrees). Tolkien decided that the main god would never let the allies fail and will cheat to make sure they win. So, from his point of view, it's not a plot fault. But from my point of view, when you can just bring characters back from the dead - even stronger than before - it cheapens the fiction and tension. A writer can cheat or be lazy or ignore problems. No matter how good the writer is. It doesn't need fans to start doing their job. If you are doing their job, it means that they didn't do their job.
I don't mind fan fiction that corrects issues and what not. What I take issue to is the whitewashing of clear errors in writing as if they are not errors. Star Trek fans are the worst. They make me want to punch them. It's never bad writing - just a stroke of genius on the part of the writers to make us "read between the lines" and "join up the dots". Frequently using future stories to explain past ones. :P
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Well, it's a contrivance; when you're writing something and what you want to happen doesn't have the prompt you need, that's when you either need to rewrite what goes on up to that point, re-do the entire the scene, or come up with something on the fly that triggers it to happen. A throw-away line can save a lot of time if it works, but they usually don't stand up to scrutiny.
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Sephiroth/Jenova exerting control over people with the cells in them happens yes - extracting memories from one person and feeding it to another? There's nothing in the original to suggest that is happening.
Multiple Sephiroth clones is exactly that. Sephiroth, with control of his large amount of Jenova cells(with? her consent) completely copies himself and imprints his consciousness on multiple other people with Jenova cells implanted.
Reunion is simply a calling between the cells. It's never said to be some kind of conscious process from the main cluster that would indicate it could rummage through people's memories, extract the pertinent ones for some grand plot and then feed them to Cloud.
It doesn't even make sense.
Why would Jenova enforce Cloud's delusion? What possible reason, at that point in the plot, would Jenova have to reshape Cloud's personality?
To accept that explanation of events, Jenova would have to be A.) capable of rummaging through Zack's memories after he is already dead, and then plant them in Cloud's head, and B.) she/it would have to have a reason to do that despite the fact that this conflicts with the narrative indicating that Jenova awakens in Shinra building when Cloud comes there (after all, if she was already awake, doing stuff like manipulating Cloud, why didn't she break out earlier?)
Reunion is a calling between Jenova cell injected humans, which does whatever necessary to modify their behavior to make sure they all end up at Jenova. The reason Jenova is trying to change Cloud into Zack is to make another strong hero like Sephiroth to then manipulate, just like him. He wasn't always evil, he was a war hero at one point.
A)Zack and Cloud were both injected with Jenova cells, which gave Cloud mako poisoning. From Jenova's lifestream energy. They then traveled together for a long time giving plenty of time for Jenova to attempt to rebuild Cloud like Zack. At which point Zack died, and Jenova transfered her focus from Zack to Cloud.
B) I don't think Jenova's all there anymore. Either mentally or physically or spiritually. Cloud had to take Jenova cells with her planets lifestream energy and give it "experiances" to grow, as Bugenhamen explains. Which reawakens her when you come near, which in turn allows Sephiroth to find her and use a horribly mangled Jenova host turned sephy pupa(probably another of hojo's experiments that broke out and hurt itself) to kill president Shinra and carry her away.
In the original, Cloud's mind is being messed with by Sephiroth's conscious efforts through the Jenova cells.
Since Sephiroth didn't have Cloud on his radar back when Cloud woke up in Midgar after Zack died, he wouldn't have done it either.
Jenova is the one who started all this when she sensed the cells in Sephiroth being ripe for harvest for lifestream energy and caused him to do what he did in Nibelhiem to get in close proximity with him. She's the one who fucked with his mind, though we never learn who she replaced his memories with. Though when he first starts going crazy he thinks he's an ancient, so maybe its based off of one of them that died when she tried to conquer them.
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Sephiroth/Jenova suggests in the illusion at the crater that the Jenova cells in Cloud created "Cloud" from Tifa's memories. While that wasn't true, I don't think there's much reason to think Jenova can't do that. For the player it alludes back to what Ifalna says in the recordings at Icicle Inn, about Jenova appearing as people's loved ones -- taken from their memories.
With that said, I thought it was a point in the original game that in Cloud's case it wasn't Jenova stealing memories. It doesn't have to be. Cloud didn't get his Nibelheim memories directly from Zack's memories. Cloud has his Nibelheim memories because he was there, with the blanks filled in from what Zack told him (I believe all scenes where Cloud wasn't actually there, Tifa also wasn't there so we don't have to believe his retelling of those scenes were 100% accurate because there's no one to call him out anyway). Jenova's involvement is that her cells "helps" Cloud patch together his mind, filling in gaps and somewhat influenced by Cloud's ideal (which Zack fulfilled).
The reveal Cloud was there the whole time explains why he can fairly accurately retell the events. If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
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If the truth is Jenova still siphoned Zack's memories, then.... Well it's just absolutely unnecessary.
Yes, but we do know she siphoned his build at least for sure. That's why Cloud is confused, even though he realizes Jenova is messing with his mind making him think he's SOLDIER 1ST CLASS, he still has the body of one. But he doesn't care bout that, he's gonna fight for the planet etc.
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He has his strong build because:
"I never was in SOLDIER.[...]And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life[...]"
"Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."
"I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..."
The game's explanation is that is just what Jenova cells do.
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Yes, Jenova cells injected into humans allow their perceptions to alter their physical form. Sephiroth's sword skills and all his strength are probably stolen from the masters in Wutai he killed. Zack's strength is copied from Sephiroth's. But Cloud's is copied from Zack's.
Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending."
Cloud should not have survived the procedure. The only reason he did, is because A)Shinra Moved and resealed Jenova B)Cloud managed to hurt Sephiroth and toss him into the lifestream for x amount of time until he made his way to the north C)Since Cloud copied Zack, instead of having Jenova/Sephiroth in his head, he had Jenova/Zack.
That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control. That's who Sephiroth attempts to use multiple times to control you. That's why you don't turn into a mindless black cloaked zombie, but also why Sephiroth is able to call him out to get you to hand over the black materia while your unaltered form attempts to stop it.
The true Zack and Aerith remove Jenova from Cloud and dump him in mideel. How else did you get away from Sephiroth and Jenova and the Reunion? How else do you again travel back into the lifestream and it does a similar memory repair/transfer between Cloud and Tifa to restore Cloud.
Materia is literally the "Knowledge and memories of the Ancients in crystalized form" which means mako is at least partially memories, and if thats true, then memories themselves are mako, and if a rudimentary technological government can figure out how to introduce mako by exposure. The dying mother of an evil planet thousands of years old well versed in magic can easily move mako between hosts.
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It's probably best to use the retranslation here too, given the original game's problems:
{CLOUD}
“I never was in Soldier.”{NEW}
“The events from five years ago,
all the stuff about Soldier,it
was an illusion that I created.”{NEW}
“I left my village looking for glory,
but never made it.”{NEW}
“I was ashamed of being so weak.
Then I heard Zax talking about
himself…”{NEW}
“I mixed his life with my own
and created a fantasy.”{NEW}
“I’ve been trapped
in it ever since.”
------------------------------
{BARRET}
“An illusion?
Sure had me fooled.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Physically,I’m very similar
to someone in Soldier.”{NEW}
“Hojo’s Sephiroth-Copies are nothing
special. The process used to create
them is identical to the one that’s
used on members of Soldier.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“You see,those who are a good
prospect for Soldier aren’t just
irradiated with Mako…”{NEW}
“Their bodies are actually
injected with Jenova cells.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“For better or worse,only the
strong-willed are chosen.”{NEW}
“This has nothing to do with
Jenova’s Reunion,either.”{NEW}
“It’s just that if the process is used
on someone who’s weak-willed,
like me,they lose themselves.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“A man born from Jenova
cells,Sephiroth’s will,and
his own weaknesses.”{NEW}
“That’s… the {CLOUD}
that you all knew.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“The master of my
own illusionary world.”{NEW}
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The original game makes it clear that a person can be controlled if they are weak willed. But this has nothing to do with reading a person's thoughts - and Cloud explains above exactly how his fake life came into being.
Plus, this still would not explain away the poor exposition.
That's who's always talking to you when you pass out. A Zack copy made by Jenova being forced to pretend he's you but fighting her control
That's absolutely not right at all. It's the real Cloud fighting the fake ego. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jenova or Sephiroth. This is made much clearer in the retranslation.
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So Sephiroth can copy his entire mind and plant it in a failed clone, using Jenova cells and the lifestream like wifi(while carrying chunks of Jenova cells only that project her). But the actual Jenova cells which caused Sephiroth to learn how to do this and behave like so can't do it on a very local scale with memories having to so with being in soldier first class only.
Just doesn't make sense.
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None of that happens. Sephiroth doesn't plant any mind anywhere. The Copies go to the Reunion because they contain Jenova cells that want to be reintegrated into the whole. A weak-willed person can be manipulated to go somewhere or do something - and the drive to head to the Reunion is great - but there is no planting of minds or anything else.
Sephiroth was an experiment to create the ultimate Soldier. Jenova cells, as far as I am aware, did diddly squat in terms of "teaching him" anything. And in the end Sephiroth's will was so great that he was able to supersede Jenova and make it do his own bidding. At least, that's how the game reads.
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Sephiroth is locked in a materia crystal in the north the entire game, yet we see him multiple times, leaving the dead body of a weak failed clone. Not only that, but later in the game in the ancients temple, you see the effects, multiple copies of different consistencies and out of sync.
He's also talking about merging with Jenova, which is what he does after he finally calls meteor. Which counters the soul loss aspect, but turns him into a "weapon." You then weaken the Jenova part, and unaltered Sephiroth takes control one last time and allows you to kill him to end it.
Edit:
Sephiroth was also not made the same way Soldiers were. He was infused as a baby by Ghast. The rest were made as adults by Hojo. While I'll admit his will was so strong he almost became the main enemy, I still see Jenova as that.
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Eh? Jenova is a Shapeshifter. The Sephiroth we see throughout the game is Jenova taking Sephiroth's form.
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As already explained by someone else, Sephiroth doesn't leave anywhere. Jenova is a shape-shifting alien that Sephiroth is controlling. The Sephiroth you see all through the game and are pursuing is Jenova. It broke out of the Shin-Ra building. From the point that Jenova escapes captivity, you are following Jenova being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the blood trail ends in the Shin-Ra building and the president is killed by Sephiroth where the blood trail ends - his floor.
What doesn't make sense is that clothing and the sword can be replicated. But what else were the writers going to do here? They had to ignore logic for that.
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No, Jenova headed to the north, leaving a few peices behind with the sephy pupa. When you see the Red soldier die, a Sephiroth copy is made from him and the peice of Jenova you fight when he drops it after it being "used up" and unable to be held by the soul form. The original Sephiroth pupa that killed the president with the masamune(which was probably in the shinra building) never even got on that ship. He killed the Midgar Zolom, got to Junon and found a mako/Jenova soldier that served his purpose and stuck the Jenova Birth arm in em, then went searching for the clone to make with Jenova Life/Death. There's a reason they're different names, Jenova gave him the instructions on how to build the soul needed, and the parts of her body you fight are built for those purposes.
All the Sephiroth clones kill themselves at the end of the Reunion. Right before you fight Jenova Death, the clone comments "You're Right. This is the end of this bodies usefulness" and disinegrates himself.
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I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but you are categorically wrong. What I and others have said isn't in question - and is simply the main plot of the game. You are pursuing Jenova all through the game. She is a shape shifting alien on her way to rejoin with all the other cells. Sephiroth is using Jenova to do his bidding. That's all.
More to the point, how does this help clarify the poor writing and answer this thread?
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stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.
Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.
When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.
As to why Sephiroth can control the other people with Jenova cells: It's because Sephiroth is stronger-willed than Jenova. He wasn't able to overcome it completely, but he corrupted Jenova's will into something that resembles a twisted hybrid of both their thoughts and desires. This effect lasted in Jenova past Sephiroth's death. Any control Sephiroth seems to have over these other dudes is in fact Jenova's broken mind controlling them.
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stormstrife, I think a lot of these misconceptions are coming from the word "clone". This was arguably Michael Baskett's biggest mistake in the game's original translation. They are, in no way, shape, or form, clones. Rather, they were an attempt to copy or clone the process by which Sephiroth was made so powerful in the first place.
Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, Jenova cells were implanted in him.
When "clones" are referred to in the game, what it means is "people who were subjected to a similar process". It's talking about duplicating the method used to make Sephiroth a supersolider, not literal duplicate people. Of course, they were all injected with Jenova cells later in life, so they were failures where Sephiroth was a success.
I'm not confused. I understand that. I'm pretty sure its actually Hojo who calls them clones, distorting the truth.
Y'see, a typical SOLDIER would be treated with Mako AND Jenova cells to make him stronger, Sephiroth was something else. When he was still just an embryo inside Lucrecia, mako and Jenova cells were implanted in him.
A slightly more accurate term would be Jenova clones, which would include Sephiroth. But the correct term is Jenova Hosts.
You don't think I think Cloud shares any DNA with Sephiroth do you, or any of the black cloaked zombies do? No. We know they all have Jenova cells though, and this is what gives the ability to connect them, not Sephiroth.
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It's my turn now.
Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's. In fact it doesn't matter that this is the true Cloud until then. It could be anyone else which may look a bit like him to trigger the memory steeling from Tifa. And this is shown in the game AND it is stated that Cloud's memories are based on Tifa's, she had about him. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).
The memory steeling could also happen when Cloud meets Reno. At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are. It could also be that the cells did read Aerith's mind in scene of sector if the flash symbols a mind read process, but it also happens in Kalm before the first flashback, which could mean on the other hand, that it indicates the producing of fake memory on the base of Zax ones. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.
Guys please keep in mind the story was written while they developed the game. They had a rough concept of the Ragnarok tale but that's all. They probably started to make the story consistent but had hadn't the time for it. I would say, if I look how long Cloud is acting like Zax, they came to the point where Cloud meets Aerith. After that he is acting differently.
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Can Jenova read memories? Yes. The Cloud we see until he falls into the lifestream is a mixture of Zax memories and Tifa's.
Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard. Again, his actual memories have nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him. Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him. That simply never happens. Also, you will notice that Sephiroth is only able to manipulate Cloud when he is in close proximity.
. Remember the confusing text of Tifa in Cloud's mind, "Finding a memory which is his own" (something like that).
This entire scene is a metaphor for being in Cloud's mind. It's a clever device by the writers to show you something that is otherwise not physical. They don't "find" a memory. They simply work out that Cloud was there all along and he realizes the truth. There is a similar clever scene that I like in Babylon 5, where Londo visits his own mind.
At the start he doesn't knew who he is, but after a flash he does exactly knew who he is and what the Turk's businesses are.
This is simply the real Cloud urging the fake Cloud to remember. Also, when I say "fake Cloud", I am not talking about 2 different physical beings or two spirits or anything of the sort. The closest you can come to it is split personality syndrome. The Cloud at the start of the game is using a fake persona because he was too ashamed at never making it into Soldier. He mixes what he has heard from Zax with his own memories to create a false persona.
. The last evidence why this Cloud is a creation of Tifa's memory: Cloud does exactly knew what in the letter for Tifa were written. Remember, in Cloud's mind the 'true Cloud' did say about Tifa's room, He was never in there.
He was in there. He visited Niblheim as a normal soldier with Sephiroth and Zax. He went into that room. He said he was never in the room as a kid—not when he returned to the village. Just because that scene is not revisited does not mean it did not happen. The scene at Midhir is concerned with different parts of his life. Visiting her room to read a letter is unimportant to the plot at that point.
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Nope. Cloud explains in the dialogue above that he created the fake persona on stories he had heard. Again, his memory has nothing to do with Jenova. Cloud really was at Niblheim. Tifa really was known to him as a child. He really did know Zax. Sephiroth makes a false claim to the contrary - but it's false to confuse Cloud and manipulate him. Cloud bases everything on what he has heard and makes the story up himself. There is no memory reading or planting going on. At best you can say Jenova has the ability to make him believe it and to confuse him - but not read memory from others and plant it onto him. That simply never happens.
“It took on the form of their
dead mothers and fathers…
Deceased family members…”
“To each it showed a
ghost from the past.”
“I never did live up
to being {CLOUD}.”
“I hope you meet him
again someday,{TIFA}.”
“You see,those who are a good
prospect for Soldier aren’t just
irradiated with Mako…”
“Their bodies are actually
injected with Jenova cells.”
...
“It’s just that if the process is used
on someone who’s weak-willed,
like me,they lose themselves.”
“…something was wrong.
There was something strange
about what you were saying.”
“…Not knowing things you should,
and knowing things you shouldn’t.”
Btw. Cloud wasn't in here room.
“I felt so ashamed.
I didn’t want anybody to see me.”
Get me right, I knew the text you refering and I see that you have a point there, but the game contradicts itself in that mattter.
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“It took on the form of their
dead mothers and fathers…
Deceased family members…”
“To each it showed a
ghost from the past.”
We can infer slight telepathic abilities here in close proximity (assuming it isn't a plot hole) - but certainly not implanting memories onto others . Jenova simply shape-shifted into people that looked like their relatives.
“I never did live up
to being {CLOUD}.”
“I hope you meet him
again someday,{TIFA}.”
He says this believing it, but It isn't true. We find out the truth at Midhir. This isn't proof of anything.
“…something was wrong.
There was something strange
about what you were saying.”
“…Not knowing things you should,
and knowing things you shouldn’t.”
Again, this is consistent with the storyline. It makes total sense. Tifa did not know he was in Niblheim with Sephiroth - Cloud deliberately hid that knowledge from her by keeping his helmet on, remember? She thinks Cloud never came. But he did. All Tifa knows up until Midhir is that Zax came with Sephiroth and two ordinary soldiers. She does not know that one of those ordinary soldiers was Cloud.
{TIFA}
“That’s right!
It was Zax who came to
Niblheim with Sephiroth.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“Then,where were you,{CLOUD}?”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“Did you see this?”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“I… saw it.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You did come.
You did keep your promise.”
------------------------------
{TIFA}
“You really did come
when I was in a bind.”
------------------------------
{CLOUD}
“Sorry I…
didn’t get there sooner.”
Tifa doesn't remember Cloud being there when he rescued her because she was unconscious. Later, Cloud and Zax are found alive and placed in the Shin-Ra Mansion for experimentation. Tifa is rescued from Hojo by Zangan. We never see this happen in the game; we only read about it from a letter, years later.
‘{TIFA},
what has happened to our village?
Was it all an illusion,or just a dream?
No,it was neither. I remember clearly.
I tried to save those still free of
the flames,but I couldn’t muster
the strength.{NEW}
Burning with rage,I headed to
the Mako reactor to kill Sephiroth.
He was nowhere to be found.
In his place,I found you,{TIFA},
collapsed inside. I felt saving
you was far more important
than going after Sephiroth.{NEW}
Inside the reactor,
there were others still breathing,
but I was only able to save you.
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I didn't say it that Jenova changes the memories of other persons but is able to alter the memories of its vessel. Let's assume that the happenings in Nibelheim are based entirely on what Zax told him (after all we don't see the battle between Cloud/Zax and Sephiroth). The character of Cloud is what he remembers from Zax appearance and what he knew from Tifa of him (for me it's clear that his character created by Tifa's memories of him, the reaction could happen because of her strong feelings for Cloud which may trigger the cells according to Ilfana). The real Cloud is sealed by the Jenova cells, which tries to get in contact with the current active one, when the situation fits or the cells are not very active.
Because Tifa's memories of him does only reach until Cloud leaves the village, Cloud uses the story he knows from Zax to fill the gap. This seems like a logical explanation to me with all the texts in mind we have had here.
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DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.
The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?
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Shin-Ra doesn't replace their memories. They are all actors playing the part of the villagers.
There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).
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DLPB, you mention Shinra completely replacing Nibelhiem, its inhabitants, and replacing all their memories. If you also note, its the largest concentration of "clones" anywhere in the game. I'd suspect every single person in that town is a Jenova host, they used her and she used them to replace the town, and the cloaks we see are regressed townies.
The only way to make sense of this, is if Shinra has tech to replace memories. But that Jenova with magic doesn't?
That's really nonsense . The people with the normal mind are actors and the cloaked ones are copies. Only what we can say is Jenova can morph into people which are important to a person. Maybe that's why Jenova morphs into Sephiroth because it was an important person for the President?
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There are no clones. They are just humans injected with jenova cells (not the villagers. They are just actors).
I'm not gonna repeat myself about the Jenova Hosts. If I call them clones, and you can't connect what I mean, given thats the term used in the game, w/e.
On the other hand. I do not think they're actor's. There are 5 years between Nibelhiem and Midgar. Cloud is not suited to the Soldier program, yet still underwent it. Nibelhiem was destroyed, and needed to be replaced to stop questions. I don't think it's farfetched to think they could have used him to "seed" all the townies memories we see. The "normal" townies don't notice the black cloaks at all. Not only that, but its very obvious in one of the houses, they used to be a family, as there is a child black cloak.
Jenova cannot move under her own power, at least not well or fast. Otherwise Sephiroth would never have been needed in Nibelhiem or the Shinra Building and as soon as they dug her up she would have crushed the humans. She does not shapeshift. The“It took on the form of their dead mothers and fathers… Deceased family members…” is a legend written by the Cetra trying to explain the "Calamity from the Skies." Its probably explaining their loved ones getting captured in battles, returning in the bodies of strangers, so convincing it was like killing/being killed by the ghost of that loved one, where it may have cried and killed itself after or vice versa.
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Could please stay at what the game gives you instead of inventing wild theories?
Periodic Report For Professor Hojo
1. Copy Activity
Unfortunately,no Copies have
left the village during this period.
As previously reported,
it would certainly appear that the
Copies are sensing something.
However,they only ever mutter
the words ‘Reunion’ and ‘Sephiroth’,
and show no desire to leave here.
2. Classified
A total of eight people have visited
the village this period. Fortunately,
none of them were aware of the
incident five years ago. No-one
has realized that the village has
been restored to exactly how it
appeared before the fire.
The staff playing the villagers have
also improved on their acting skills.
There are no further issues to report
at this time.
End of report.
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Well, I can't lie. I've played the game over 30 times, and never found that or don't remember it. So I will admit, that this shows they are definitely actors.
I still do think Jenova can manipulate memories. And I just figured Jenova would allow her cells to be used as far spread as possible to enable as many hosts as possible. Like the old science fiction trope of some amazing tech actually being an intelligent alien species for mind control.
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The letter can be found in Tifa's (ex-)room.
If it makes the game logical for you, then it's fine. I like the interpretation of Brittenham. Not the interpretation itself more the idea he has about Jenova. It's that kind of depth a good written game should have. FF7 has a great story but is not well written. There are a lot of things which seems not well-conceived. I guess FF9 is exactly the opposite of that for me.
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You've played the original game with a poor localization. But even the original mentions actors,I believe.
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Yea I looked it up, I never even realized there was a letter to Tifa there in the past either.
I never really thought about it, its just how I figured it always was. What exactly does Brittenham think?
I'd say for myself I think the Jenova we see is actually a Jenova Host Ancient, whos holding back most of her powers, and the only time we see Jenova's true form is right before Safer Sephiroth.
I'd also agree about the comparisons between 7/9. 7 has a lot of different idea's that are ingenious but aren't well integrated. Where as 9 has a clear lead creativity direction, and almost every part is polished and made better with lessons from previous games. Idk, 9 just doesn't have something though, that I personally find in 7 even though its my 2nd fav FF. Part of it has to do with materia and making any character do anything. Though 9's 4 party members, and learning abilities through equipment is very polished and much more FF like.
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Brittenham interpretation says that Jenova does control the whole of Shinra when they found her. Soldier, Makoreactors, etc were all part of the plan of Jenova to weaken the planet.
Here you can read it: http://cetraconnection.net/analysen-und-theorien/interpretation/brittenham/opening/
Do not take arguments of that for real, The Ultimania Omega: Final Fantasy VII has proven that a lot of it is false interpretation.
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It's also written after the fact. Only the original game and what the authors said at the time really counts tbh.
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It does make a weird sort of sense. If Jenova contains her own lifestream(from her planet), and can use that to infiltrate the planets lifestream, then she could have even been leading them to dig her up. And the way Sephiroth uses the lifestream I'd believe it. Not only that, how else did she get them to inject her cells into people, being the exact thing she needed to get back to conquering the world.
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That's just more total speculation on your part though. I can make up anything I want, too. How about Nanaki has the power to see into the future when he comes of age? It doesn't make it right. You can't use external sources, other games, and things written after the fact to explain something in the original game. You certainly can't start making your own theories up. It stands or falls on what it explains or does not. There is no "Jenova's Lifestream". It doesn't factor in here at all - and none of this is on topic. :P
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I'm not using anything but my own playing experiences to speculate, and thankfully "certainly can't start making your own theories up" doesn't apply to me. Because A) Fern you yes I can B) its 20 years too late to "start."
If you said Seto did what he did because he knew one day he would meet Nanaki. Then I couldn't argue that, the game doesn't say anything in the negative about that.
I have not used any external sources. I've never played any of the other "ff7 games," and honestly I've never been a part of any FF7 community because the fans of the game can be pretty offputting. Just because that guy got to similar idea as doesn't mean I'm wrong, or that I just copied him.
Fact:Shinra dug up Jenova, was led to believe she was an ancient, and was led to believe by injecting cells of it into people they could create ancients. But by who or what?
Speculation: Either Ancient Jenova Hosts left clues, or Jenova did it directly through the lifestream.
Fact: Bugenhagen tells us all celestial bodies have lifestreams and all lifeforms share a part of it. Jenova has lifestream energy, and its not from the planet.
Speculation: Meteor is Jenova's planet.
Fact:Planets make weapons when they are dying in as a last resort.
Speculation: Jenova is Meteor's last WEAPON.
Fact: Materia is the crystallized form of Ancients knowledge and memories.
Speculation: Memories are made of mako themselves, being a part of consciousness, not the body.
Fact: Sephiroth can send his entire mind through the lifestream because of Jenova cells, using it to control puppets from the north cave(usually around a mako reactor).
Speculation: Jenova can do so on a very local level without lifestream access, which is how I think she can transfer memories. In fact I think her power is being able to interact with the lifestream/mako energy while still alive.
Very much on topic.
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Fact:Shinra dug up Jenova, was led to believe she was an ancient, and was led to believe by injecting cells of it into people they could create ancients. But by who or what?
That's not a fact, that's interpretation. Shin-Ra was not led by anyone except by their own greed for power. The game isn't that complex regarding the motivations behind the acting. As example Shin-Ra was a weapon manufacturer company but who has fought against whom? The game doesn't tell much about this war. We also don't know if Jenova came with a meteor or not. Think on Lavos from Chrono Trigger, which came by his own. The devs hadn't made many thoughts on that
Fact: Sephiroth can send his entire mind through the lifestream because of Jenova cells, using it to control puppets from the north cave(usually around a mako reactor).
Even that isn't a fact. What we know is that he has the power to interact with his siblings. On the other hand it's also possible that Jenova is guiding the clones to Sephiroth, after all she is doing it with Cloud.
The game has plot holes as hell and that's why we get thousands of wild theories, because people tend to fill the holes with their own logic and wishes, me too. As much more it is important to look, what are the hard facts of the games.
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When Jenova was dug up, they thought she was an ancient. When they injected her cells into a human, they thought they were making an ancient. When Sephiroth reads through the materials in the Shinra mansion and goes insane, he also believes they're ancients.
But thats just not true. Its very obvious that Shinra went from a arms dealer to a mercenary group during the Wutai fight, and its also what made them rich enough to do the things they did.
We do know what Jenova came with, why do you think shes nicknamed "The calamity from the skies," what do you think the northern crater is?
There is no doubt Sephiroth is a puppet of Jenova's to me. The difference is, he's a willing host, unlike the Ancient Host we see in Mt Nibel who's holding it in statis. Sephiroth uses it to survive being tossed into the lifestream/losing half his body and then figures out how to use it to travel to the northern crater. All while Jenova is slowly eating at his brain, replacing cell by cell with hers, driving him different levels of crazy as time goes on.
The way I look at it is, Jenova is braindamaged after spending so long in statis, only the most basic instinctual functions work, until she get rebuilt in Sephiroth and he becomes the new main "Jenova."
On the point of the Reunion. Its not their physical bodies that are reuniting. Its the Jenova lifestream energy that they've "grown" with experiences being returned in their deaths. It's also not them picking her up on an antenna and zoning in on it, but them all doing the same thing because they're Jenova infected.
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I think it very unlikely that Sephiroth is a puppet of Jenova. Exhibit 1, the largest of Jenova cell-cultures is in Shinra building, yet Jenova breaks out, takes on Sephiroth's form and travels to where he is, in North Crater, which strongly suggests Sephiroth is exerting his will on Jenova, not the other way around.
Jenova has no reason what so ever to favor Sephiroth, or go to special lengths to facilitate what is ultimately in his best interest, not hers.
This is brought to crystal clear light with exhibit 2 - the fact that you kill Jenova prior to killing Sephiroth, whom is essentially acting as a shield trying to stop Cloud and Co from reaching Sephiroth, and when she dies nothing changes what so ever as far as Sephiroth is concerned. If fact, he doesn't even seem to notice or care.
Finally, although this is part speculation.
Fact : Jenova was based off of Carpenter's "The Thing", and the FFVII's concept stage of productions tied together with Parasite Eve, which features organisms that fit the theme of "The Thing" and are similar to Jenova.
Speculation : Jenova is not sentient. In fact, Jenova is kinda like a virus, the form of which we see in the game is probably just the last human/ancient host of it.
Jenova cells exert some kind of influence on an instinctual level through biological alteration, but Sephiroth having been born with it, and then falling through the life-stream absorbing the knowledge and power of the Ancients puts the virus in check, and uses it to further his own agenda, an agenda that is party influenced by the change in his nature as a result of having been born with Jenova cells to begin with.
Jenova being in control of Sephiroth just doesn't compute with what the game tells us explicitly though, just saying it makes even less sense thematically with what is arguably being implicitly stated too.
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I think the authors on record even back then as saying that is how it is. It's also what the game shows. Sephiroth is using Jenova. Almost everything points to that.
@stormstrife You are making stuff up.
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The vagueness, and seemingly self-contradicting aspects of Jenova -I think- is deliberate by the writers. If you know exactly how an alien entity works within a story, there is a high probability of it losing its... um exotic flavor, and mystique for lack of better words (by "alien" I don't mean extraterrestrial, but "the unknown"). Which in turn can render the story rather mundane and lackluster. That being said, I like the idea of Jenova not actually being (subjective) sentient, rather some sort of parasite/hive mind/virus (pretty much what hian said). But that may as well be fan-fic from my side.
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Yeah my read of the Jenova situation is that Sephiroth is in command of Jenova, but that it's hard to tell because Sephiroth adopted Jenova's goals and motives for his own, with some adjustment. Like, Jenova apparently had no interest in Meteor - it's Sephiroth who realized how Meteor could be used to accelerate Jenova's consumption of the life of the planet and thus allow him to do the same thing. Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim and post-Nibelheim are practically different entities entirely.
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The only reason I dont think Sephiroth is is control is because when he first goes insane, he thinks he's an ancient and his mission becomes to destroy the traitors to the Cetra, humans. When Jenova completely takes control, he learns she killed all the Cetra, and he isn't one, and keeps on forwarding the plan without a second thought.
Sephiroth has no idea who he's fighting. First its Shinra, then its humans as a prehuman, then its humans as an alien, then he's trying to become god etc. He's just being used.
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Who actually said that Jenova is an alien? I believed it until recently, but I also believed that the Cetra were space travelers for a long time.
As it looks now, a person has created the Black materia and cast meteor. He/she probably created also a way to absorb the lifestream to get more power (the virus) and became Jenova. This theory is plausible since the conflict between nature and science is very present in the game. Still, it's a theory.
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The game makes it pretty clear that she is an extraterrestrial. She fell from the sky. It's a fact given the writers have also weighed in on this a lot. As said before, Jenova is based on The Thing.
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Yeah, her title as 'Calamity From the Sky' makes it clear Jenova is some form of extraterrestrial. Whether the Cetra are explicitly stated to travel from planet to planet I can't remember - but it seems to be the case, based on the description of their cultural life-cycle of exploring and 'unlocking' the planet. Their role, mythologically, is clearly to seed the planet with life and help cultivate the lifestream, but I don't recall if they're supposed to be planetary nomads or just nomads across Gaea. Obviously either way their journey ended after their run-in with Jenova.
EDIT: Just went over the lines again. While Sephiroth talks about them 'settling the planet and moving on', Aerith clarifies that the Cetra were in fact born from the Planet. So yeah, they're purely terrestrial nomads.
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Yeah, the Cetra were nomads. Due to bad localization and confusing Japanese it was stated that they travel planets instead of the land. You should ditch the original localization entirely when discussing plot, because a lot of it is just plain wrong.
Fun fact... I have a cousin named Petra - and I decided on my first playthrough (I had never played RPG before) to name Aerith after her. So... you can imagine the "fun" I had. More confusing than ever. Petra was a Cetra. :o
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As it looks now, a person has created the Black materia and cast meteor.
The Black Materia is Jenova's spaceship. It's also materia from Meteor. It's also what caused the northern crater. I can't remember where but Bugenhagen says that the northern crater will be nothing compared to what happens when Meteor comes.
I think Meteor's name as the "Ultimate destructive magic" is very telling. As Bugenhagen explains, when a planet loses all of its lifestream, it dies and falls apart and loses its orbit. I think Meteor injures the planet with the Black Materia, and then comes in and takes all the mako at the wound for itself. Especially because in the end video, it isn't just crashing into the planet, its slowly coming down.
He/she probably created also a way to absorb the lifestream to get more power (the virus) and became Jenova.
I agree in a way, except that the original Jenova did this on another planet, and became an organism that could manipulate its own lifestream, and is the only surviving member of the planet Meteor, where they store vast amounts of energy. Celestial bodies need a lifestream, and when you hit it with the rocket, those peices still stay "attached" to it.
If its a virus though, is it the virus or the person is a weird question. Does Jenova even have its own personality to begin with? Would that explain why you never interact with her? Do they all eventually go insane for not participating in the lifestream cycle and she needs fresh ones?
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idiocy that proves that I, stormstrife, am literally mentally retarded
You are one of the stupidest motherferners to ever be birthed. Here's hoping you make it through the day without forgetting to breathe.
Nope. Not having it. ~Covarr
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@DragRopes
Congratulations! You just managed to add even less to the conversation then the person you regard as mentally retarded. Have a nice day.
(Ifalna)
2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the Planet.
The first ones to discover the Planet’s wound were the Cetra at the Knowlespole.
The Cetra then began a Planet-reading.
It said something fell from the sky making a large wound.
Thousands of Cetra pulled together, trying to heal the Planet…
But, due to the severity of the wound, it was only able to heal itself over many years.
The Planet tried to persuade the Cetra to leave the Knowlespole, but…
When the Cetra…were preparing to part with the land they loved…
That’s when the one who injured the Planet… or the ‘crisis from the sky’, as we call it, came.
It first approached as a friend, deceived them, and finally, gave them the virus.
The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... and transformed into monsters(Sephiroth much?).
Then, as it had in the Knowlespole.
It approached the other Cetra clans... and infected them with... the virus.