Basically, cause if we were to write a sequel, we will have to make up a lot of new stuff which might not be agreeable to many like the revival of Aeris, or how the relationship among the characters turns out, or even whether Sephiroth might reappear or not.....
If we do a prequel, we can make use of the loop holes in FF7 where the certain parts of FF7 are missing or even add parts of FF7 that were only incomplete stories. This way, we limit ourselves to how the outcomes will be and thus helps us from going off track.
I thought a great title for the prequel would be something like this:-
Final Fantasy : Shadows Of Sephiroth
I chose this title cause we can try to focus the story around Sephiroth whom a lot of people seem to want to use in the game. By using him as the main character, we can include Hojo, Vincent and the whole SHINRA too, thus keeping a lot of characters within the game and saving us the effort of designing new characters. Throughout the way, we could introduce all the other main FF characters like Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Barret, Zack, Prof. Gast...................you get the idea.
I believe this is a good idea and we should set up a storyboard commitee to write up the story while the others figure out the FF7 software section but of course this is my own biased opinion so I await everyone's reply.
Should you all agree, I recommend that Sephiroth 3D lead this project and that Qhimm creates a whole new forum section for this project. I also suggest that this forum to have password access only as to protect the story from leaking out to too many people. I mean wouldn't it only spoil the story if everyone knew it before we released it?
Edit: I forgot. Out of curiosity, why should Sephiroth 3D be the leader? Unlike you, I barely know the guy. Heck, he just showed up here, what, two days ago? I know he's done some modeling and fanfic stuff, but does even he want to do this? If we must have a leader, what makes him the most qualified? Do we even really *need* or *want* a leader?
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 09, 2001).]
-Graphics - maybe but not quite.
-Music - yes, totally.
-Sound - could be done without *too* much trouble.
-Text - the problem. You can *change* the text with Cosmo but you can't edit the *script*, ie. who says what in what order and when they say it. Once somebody figures out how to edit the script you can go ahead and do your remake. Until somebody does, I'm afraid you're f***ed.
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 10, 2001).]
I'll look for and at the script files if i have the time but currently I can looking at the P files.
BTW, Skillster I can't send you the CD yet cause my CD-Writer Died on me :(
If you still want it I'll send it to you once I get it back from the shop
Sounds like fun. Follow Sephiroth from his birth to the point that Cloud kills him at the end of FF7. Tell the whole thing from his perspective!
Actually, for programming, I've been thinking about trying to get my friends to write me a plug-and-play FF style game engine. Drop in models, backdrops, music (MIDI or MP3), sounds, and even movies. Then you write a script, write dialog, then compile and play.
Granted, neither I, nor my friends, know how to build something like that, but it would be fun to have, because we could easily remake FF7-FF9.
Anyways, back to the idea... I would like to head the WRITING part, but someone else would have to run the actual development of everything else. :D
Sephiroth 3D
"One who seeks knowledge from another person, doesn't learn half as much as the one who seeks knowledge for himself." - Vincent Valentine, The Sephiroth Chronicals, Book 1: Resurrection
[email protected]
Sephiroth 3D's Final Fantasy
Sephiroth's 3D Lair
Sephiroth 3D's Promised Land
Sephiroth 3D: I guess I wouldn't mind you being the head of writing, as long as my stuff is given a fair hearing. :)
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 11, 2001).]
uhhh, no.
release it as a patch, that's the only real way of doing it. As for me, when the field files get figured out in 7 I will start a linux port that requires the original disks and will release the executible only.
-halkun
M0T : We're definitely not going to distribute it in a big way. We probably have to do what halkun says and make patches. BTW if you can't program I still think you can help by using your mind to help us figure out how things work logically. The programming is only real important to create the front-end for actually editing the game.
Seph 3D: It's unlikely your friends get the time to compile the whole good FF7 engine. Besides, if we make a whole new engine, we're gonna have problems especially when it comes to getting people to d/l it. Imagine if I had to d/l another 500 MBs just to play the prequel which I don't even know works well.
fice: I don't think we actually need to change most of the sounds or graphics, to retain the FF7 feel to it. But then of course, we do need to change at least some of the graphics. We will also have to make some custom limit attacks for our new main character so we will need to know how to edit the limit attacks :( I completely agree with you that editing the scripts will be the most important part but once that's done we'll be nearly done with everything, assuming we do get it done that is.
Srethron: I would love to hear your opinion of how you think the story would go and I have no doubts that you have fantastic or wonderful ideas. I like the idea that we do a prequel since we can start off the characters at Level 1, though we have to remember to cap Seph's level at 50 for the Nibelhelm scene.
halkun: Nice to hear that you will actually be planning a LINUX port for it but I would love to have you help us out with the FF7 system so we can get done faster or ever for the case. Look at it this way, if we do finish FF7, we could then shift everyone to help you out with FF8?
Skillster: Don't worry I'll send you the CD as soon as I get my writer back. BTW, i found out that even after including the FF7 OST and Reunion CD(just the 3 special tracks), I could still fit in the FF8 OST and even the FF Vocal Collection - Pray and FF Vocal Collection - Love will Grow in in it. In fact I still have empty space in the CD since I use 700MB discs. Maybe I'll try to fit the FFT or FF9 OST in too. I'm sure you wouldn't mind the extra tracks, right? Just tell me what tracks you want,ok?
Another person who could do a good job on writing the story board would be Frank Verdosa. I've read a lot of his work and it all seems pretty good. If you want to take a look, here's his site address.
OH NO! NOT ANOTHER FINAL FANTASY VII PAGE
If Qhimm really isn't going to help us open the new forum section, then maybe I'll set up a forum (either UBB or Ikonboard) later for us to discuss the project privately.
But I honest don't feel like doing that cause I will have to check back at 2 board within a single day. I already check a few boards everyday and it's really tedious.
BTW, its nice too see that this thread is progressing in a very proper manner and not ending up like a whole off-topic thing like all the other threads.
ok i think we should get organised, dont you?
so heres a quick team/orginsation/layout i threw together:
R&D: theSaint, Halkun
Technical Director: Ficedula
Director: Srethron
executive director: Qhimm
planning: sephiroth3d
well were to i fit in? thats your choice?
Coupla points:
1) Like SaiNt said, the script file editing is *the* major part. If that gets done - you're most of the way to making your sequel. If it doesn't (and don't assume it ever will - I think it would be one HELL of a complicated task) then you're going to have to use another game engine. (I can see Dag leaping in at this point, so I'll post for him: Legacy is a freeware RPG engine under development).
2) Re: Port to other O/S's : unfortunately, I don't see this happening. Think: To do that, we'd need to understand 100% of *every* file format. Can't believe that'll happen. I mean, I don't understand 100% of the *text* format, and that's just one part of the level file!
The SaiNt: Personally, I would like to change some of the graphics. Give the field models HANDS, for instance. :) But even that wouldn't be easy. I think if someone ever does that directX layer, that takes care of part of the problem of spiffing up the graphics.
Another potential problem I see because we're using Seph is that he really is Vincent. I remember learning this ages ago. The save files are stored with Sephiroth and Vincent as the same thing or something like that. Same deal with Cait Sith and Young Cloud. That's why you shouldn't/can't have both Seph and Vince or both Cait and the Young'n in your party at the same time.
"I would love to hear your opinion of how you think the story would go and I have no doubts that you have fantastic or wonderful ideas."
Well, I can certainly *hope* that they are fantastic and wonderful. You know me, overeager, ambitious, and perfectionistic. :)
The new board idea probably is more realistic than expecting Qhimm to create a special forum for us. I have an ezboard (not very good quality, IMHO), if no one else has the time, I can create a private forum just for us in it.
I checked out that guy's site just now. If you think he would want to help with something like this, that would be cool (as long as we writer types don't develop irreconciliable differences with each other over how to do the story :P).
The Skillster: You think so? :) That would be cool.
Just a couple things on your "team assignments":
1. So far, Qhimm has shown little or no interest in being a part of any of this. Unless, he says otherwise, I think we can count him out of this project.
2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ficedula has seemed more like, "Are you guys really that crazy?!", than, "I'd love to help." I'm really not sure if our resident FF7 App man wants a part in this beyond cracking the file formats and that type of thing.
3. We're a pretty small group right now. That means we'll probably/might have to share tasks/jobs a bit more.
4. It's nice that everyone has an "assignment", but perhaps we need to make clear what some of them are (job descriptions, if you will). I've got a fair idea about what R&D and planning are for, but I'm not sure about the others. I think we'll all be a part of research, while development of FF7 editing programs currently falls to Ficedula and The SaiNt. As for the story and all of that, that's still sort of up in the air. So far, I think myself, Sephiroth 3D, and The SaiNt all want to be a part in the writing. Now, for the actual "manual" labor, I think this is where Ficedula drops out. So, all of us will probably have to pitch in at some point. One of the storywriters can probably change any
text we need to in the existing field files, but I'm not sure about other things. For instance, if we *do* give the field models hands, someone will have to perform the changes to every single character model (!).
Here's what I *think* we need to do to get started:
1. Decide what changes we do and don't want to make to the game engine (graphics, models, sounds, music, in-game systems, etc.) (hopefully my tech doc can help with this).
2. Figure out more precisely how much we can do at this point in time.
3. Decide whether to use the FF7 PC engine or to use a different engine and just salvage
whatever we can from what we know.
4. Decide on the scope of the project. My personal plans are, honestly, quite large--maybe too large and somewhat beyond our cababilities. I would like to start at the "beginning", and work our way forwards until we get to where the existing game starts. Then, I'd like to continue with the existing stuff till the end, with various changes and additions (I don't *think* there will be omissions, though).
5. Storywriters compare ideas and any plans/storyboards, write (co-write?) new storyboards/plans with the goal of trying to arrive at a consensus on the story.
Ficedula: (1) Disappointing, but important to know. Out of curiousity, is there anything we/you *do* know about the script? Which section of the field files is it in?
(2) I'm not sure about having to know every format. If we can decipher the .EXE (and I gather The SaiNt's made some good progress with it), we can probably go from there. We probably won't have to alter, say, the minigames or worldmap, we just need to get the .EXE to run in Linux and most of the rest takes care of itself... right?
Halkun: The SaiNt's got a good point. Once we finish with VII, I'll be more than happy to help you with VIII. BTW, how's the movie coming?
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 12, 2001).]
Lets see: what projects do I have currently open.
1) Linux car mp3/gps/wireless nework intagration, right now 80% complete. The computer is in the car annd plays mp3s but needs to be slimmed down and moved to the trunk, GPS and cel phone communication device needs purchased&installed. (stalled due to money issues)
2) Writing a clone of MS Windows. 5% complete. Have much groundwork done but need a lab computer to start programming on as my computer at home is being used right now and my linux box is in the car. (Made a stink about this on a mailing list, will lose face if not worked on)
3) Finding a pretty Japanese girl to marry. 50% complete. currently attending japanese class, the teacher is very attactive, but has been dating an american now for 3 years. She won't let me kill him. Will take another semester and then got to daigakuen collage in yokohama next year. Finding a pretty japanese girl is quite easy because they all are. (This project must stay open)
4) Final fantsy 8 movie. 10% done, stalled on the battle level format so I can convert them to quake 3 maps. models halfway extracted...(Made a stink about that here on this bulitin board and will lose face if I close it)
looks like I can afford the close the MS clone or the FF8 movie.
If I was to start a port of FF7 to linux two things will happen, first the source would be avilible in *standard ANSI C* and when I work with each section of the engine, each part will fall into place. I know this for a fact as I've reversed and recoded 80% of FF1 for the nes. I've also worked on about 30% of FF6 and about 15% of FF7 PSX. I see how the systems are similar and how each was coded. I may start another thread later on Zen and art of how the 6 main Final Fantasy modules flow to and from each other. (yes there are only 6. Status, town, dungoen, battle, world, drama. Though 7 tweaked it to five. Status, field[drama, town, dungoen combined], battle, world, and minigame) but the 6 original parts still flow the same way. I have to go to bed. I have work in 7 hours.
-halkun
FF remake in strict ANSI C++???
I just can't see the point in programming such a thing in C. Making something in C just because you haven't bothered to enter the wonderful world of object oriented programming seems like so much wasted time...yes I said time. Can you give me any obvious drawbacks with polymorphism? (don't know what it is? then you never learnt object ORIENTED programming, only object programming) because I've failed to find any.
If I hadn't at least given things a try when I hated them I would still be programming in VB now. I hated C++ at first, but that was before I learnt about the standard C++ and only had seen the code of bad programmers (Microsoft's demo code for instance).
About your projects:
1) State-of-the-art cellphones can be bought for 20$ in Scandinavia but then again we are about three years ahead of US in that area...
2) You seriously believe you can make that happen? Drop it... And in C? You will end up making endless structs filled with pointers-to-functions, which is exactly the problem C++ is made to solve.
If you really feel like it I would suggest joining the "open win32 sdk" projects already out there, which aim on emulating the win32 SDK perfectly on other OSes. More programmers, less wheels reinvented, less life cycles to release date.
3) Agreed. Keep it.
4) Don't feel any pressure from me at least, can't speak for the rest...
Fice, gotta agree with you on the difficulty of porting it to another OS though. Halkun seems to quite of confident about working things out so he MIGHT actually be able to pull it off. Besides, even if he doesn't manage to, I'm sure we'll gain valuable information about the file systems from his work. :)
Halkun, Yay! If you're writing the whole source in standard ANSI C, I will actually be able to read it!!! That's a real plus for me and avoid me from having to trouble fice into translating everything for me.
There are 2 ways we can do this project:
1. Use the currrent FF7 Engine
2. Use a secondary engine like Legacy
The good points about using Legacy is that we will actually be able to change everything / anything we want after extracting the stuff from FF7. Of course we will run into certain problems though. The thing is that this approach leads to people having to d/l super large files containing all the information we use to do the remake. This makes the approach not very feasable cause many people don't want to d/l a whole 500 Megs of game files. Even if we don't use everything from the FF7 files, (let's say we use only half of it) that will still make a total of 250MB's! Besides, by actually making a new game with the stuff from FF7, we will only land ourselves with a legal battle with Squaresoft (should this remake gain enough popularity) since we will have violated their copyright rights. Using Legacy will enable everyone with or w/o FF7PC to be able to play the game (should they decide to d/l it) but we get in big trouble since we are actually distributing the ripped FF7PC files.
If we use the current FF7 engine, we will or might not be able to understand everything and thus it will limit or bar us from doing a lot of stuff. The scripts are our biggest hurdle here; but like I said earlier if we do actually manage to edit it, we're almost done with the technical part. Besides that, using the current FF7 engine will save us from including a lot of files and save us from being sued by Squaresoft. Patches will make our game edits smaller in size.
Srethron, you are right about the part that Sephiroth & Vincent sharing the same data. The same case applies to Cait Sith & Young Cloud too. The thing is with a spark of ingenuity, we can just use Sephiroth as the main character and thus prevent us from actually running into the problem. We can actually avoid from having to run into problems just by using a bit of ingenuity. For example, let's say we can't figure out how to put a cap on Seph's level to 50 before the Niblehelm scene, we can easily just change the exp requirement from level 50 to 51 to be 1 million exp or more maybe? Then we could do things like add a boss shortly after that so that the boss can give him sufficient exp to reach level 51. :)
BTW, let's stay down to earth for the time being by just trying to solve stuff we really need before actually going into stuff like enhancements.
Till later......
I'm more than willing to help out with a project like this - why d'you think I make all those editing tools? I'm just trying to point out whatever you do, your programmers are going to have a large job on their hands. Personally, I'd *prefer* decoding the script files to using another engine. For a start, distributing FF7 on another engine definitely breaks copyright. Modifying an existing copy of the game is less clear cut - the person needs FF7 anyway to play the game, so you're less likely for Square to throw a wobbler.
Of course, the only problem with decoding the script is - nobody's even started it. You don't know whether it'll ever be done. At least with an existing engine you know it's *possible* to make the patch, if you can get everybody to do their part...
As for *where* it's stored ... I have guesses. Section 1 (I think it's 1) in the Level file contains text, but that's near the end of the section. Perhaps the first part contains scripting info.
Here's what I think: Go with the FF7 engine. Yes, we will have problems decoding, but we won't have to worry about Square busting our asses or copyright infringement or anything.
Graphics-wise, can we use the battle models for the normal in-game stuff, like in FF8? That way we only have to make new anims for the battle models, and not several different types. This also allows us to have something resembling hands.
Storywise: When we write the story, it will be important for us to know exactly how far we can go. IE: Do we have a 360 degree battle between Sephiroth and Cloud using battle models and a movie background, or just a standard battle. We also need to know if we can add new areas, maybe reuse old ones, ect. We can definatly reuse anything from Nibelheim, and maybe some stuff from Midgar, Northern Crater, ect.
For Sephiroth's Lvl 50 problem, I have 2 solutions: 1) we simply ignore it and don't worry, or 2) The dragon we fight just before Nimbelheim can have a special, 1-time attack that somehow lowers Sephiroth's lvl to 50. (A suicide attack that takes his lvl down or something.)
Srethron: Don't worry. I like hearing ideas for stories all the time. We may find some parts great and others terrible, but I'm definatly willing to give any ideas you have a chance.
That goes for anyone else too.
Saint: Good luck trying to get Frank into this. He seems rather absorbed writing his own stuff right now, or having to deal with the real world. But that's just an observation and an opinon right now...
I got to get to class. L8r all!
Sephiroth 3D
I did a bit more reading up on the Seph/Vincent thing, and it looks like Seph uses Vincent's stats and everything as well. The game also *thinks* he has Vincent's limits, even though he doesn't really. The game also identifies his Masamune as a weapon of Vincent's in the item menus (even though Vincent can't use it). What I *think* we could do is just figure out how the game uses character data and create a new character (perhaps just copy the data from an existing character, add it in, and then make our changes to make the new character unique).
As for the level 50 cap, for some of the earliest scenes when Seph is still growing up, I thought we could make a Young Sephiroth character (sort of like Young Cloud). That could help take care of the problem.
Stuff we really need? Well, I think that's three things:
1. The Field files (script, dialogue, backgrounds, etc. Basically, we need to understand the *whole* of the field format and be able to create our own Field files)
2. The debug room (After reading what Halkun has said about this, it looks like once we've cracked the debug room, we can change the layout of the game (i.e. make it load new field files and/or load them in a different order-perhaps someone can clarify?)
3. The battle files (the new locations will need new enemies and stuff, right?)
Ficedula: My misunderstanding, then. I agree about the large job, though. We'll certainly need some major breakthroughs.
Thanks for the info. I'll look at the Field files again sometime, but I doubt I'll find anything useful.
Sephiroth 3D:
We *might* be able to use the battle models for the normal in game stuff. However, the battle/field seem to be two completely different formats. We pretty much know the field, but we're just starting on the battle.
re: Storywise. Most of that sounds possible. I think we can re-use old locations (i.e., it would be fun to be able to revisit Corel Prison, no?). If the stuff about the debug room is correct, we *might* be able to add new locations and re-use old ones. For your thoughts about the battle, we won't know if/until we figure out the battle engine.
As for the story ideas, thanks. A fair hearing is all I ask. Nothing more. (I mean, heck, if I write horrible stuff I want to know, and I certainly don't want it in there.) :D
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 14, 2001).]
The trick, then, is to decipher the bytecode, write a compiler.. people have done it with Infocom's adventure games, but those are text-based 1980s era console text games.
If you really want to write a remake, you should write your own game engine. If you're lazy like I am, I reccomend http://www.wildtangent.com - it's fast, pretty, and easy.
I dont know about much else though....
I will take with some freinds about what should be done with this remake though.
There Geneuses they should have a few ideas.
Patches ... hmmm. Depends on what data you actually changed. Text data is tiny. I made a patch to test out Cosmo 0.75 that renamed Sephiroth. Now, that involved changing the text in about 1/3 of all the locations. (Not much was changed, but it did change a lot of files). The patch was <200Kb. Text compresses well.
Graphics, OTOH, aren't tiny, and the FF7 formats aren't compressed - though you could distribute them in JPG format or something, then write a program to convert em back into FF7 TEX's.
Music, if you used MIDI's, also tiny. Soundfonts would be the biggest element, but they should be optional anyway - not everyone has an AWE/Live.
Sound effects ... we wouldn't need many new ones.
Basically, a patch isn't necessarily going to be large, *especially* if you reuse data from the original game for lots of stuff. Which you should.
Incidentally, how do we get authorised for the private forum on this? I'm kinda hoping to be included in the discussion on this :) Actually, what is going to be discussed in the private forum? Just the story line, or the technical aspects too (as you might expect, technical is more in my line, though story interests me too).
Sorry about that flooding I have never seen the edit button before. Silly Me
[This message has been edited by M0T (edited March 19, 2001).]
Heres the URL: http://www.amazesoft.com/
And what about me on this project? No I cant program but I would like to be a beta tester.
I could also provide some input on the project. Its up to you guys though. Im just happy its happening :) .
Sir Canealot: I'm not sure at this point, having not talked with the others, but what we *might* do is make a list of beta testers, and when we release a beta, we'll let you guys know. You guys wouldn't need access to the forum, but you'd be in the nextmost inner circle. I guess it's probably The SaiNt's call. Qhimm seems to have made him the leader. :)
Edit: Oh yeah.
Mot: JPEG's are lossy. IIRC, they remove all of the colors that your eye can't see. That's one reason converting to JPEG from other formats can be such a headache, with images coming out distorted.
[This message has been edited by Srethron Askvelhtnod (edited March 19, 2001).]
And does any one know of an easy to use Mp3 editing proggie?
The Mp3 of FFVII is missing loads of songs.
How ever they can all be fixed by choping the start off the music files. Any know a proggie for this?
If that seems a bit crap and you're thinking you could lose quality ... well, if there *was* an editor that could edit MP3's directly, that's exactly what it would do (except it'd do it automatically, of course).
MP3's are biiiig ... meg a minute, generally speaking. Though you can get some very good results out of lower bitrate VBR MP3's.
Plus if we want it to sound better (I personally like the PC version as opposed to the PSX version) we can just add a new (optional?) soundfont.
And also, will this game have some of the regular NPC's true to Final Fantasy games (i.e. Biggs, Wedge, Cid, etc)? That would be cool.
I can't tell you anymore, or else I'd have to kill you. Sorry. :wink:
Sephiroth 3D
"One who seeks knowledge from another person, doesn't learn half as much as the one who seeks knowledge for himself." - Vincent Valentine, The Sephiroth Chronicals, Book 1: Resurrection
[email protected]
Sephiroth 3D's Final Fantasy
Sephiroth's 3D Lair
Sephiroth 3D's Promised Land
OK, I'll mirror it on Stas - everybody seems to be able to access that...
if Stas only had FTP access I'd move the whole site there...
OK, try
http://stas.net/3/ficedula/download/cosmo076.zip
[This message has been edited by ficedula (edited March 23, 2001).]
Argggh!
Can somebody else put Cosmo updates on their website temporarily while I try to find a *decent* server? redrival wasn't working ... at least not from where I am ...
work account, unlimited quota (2 Terrabyte webfarm) on an OC12. Don't pull too much badwidth or someone will notice (^_^)
I'll try and find another server soon ... it's puzzling me a bit why some people can get the files and some people can't.
That does remind me: SF2 program. I actually know C++ now so maybe I can code it...
I'd use my uni account (no banners, easy access, etc) but it's only 20MB and I have to keep all my work files in that space too!
I've fixed that but I want to change a few other things before I upload a newer version...
Another update: JP is cool! My new website (assuming no problems arise) is at
http://www.legacy-ovwp.org/~ficedula/index.html
Hopefully that's that :)
[This message has been edited by ficedula (edited March 25, 2001).]