Author Topic: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)  (Read 26028 times)

Tekkie.X

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #25 on: 2010-09-10 11:57:49 »
Anyone want to come join the dark side?

Already there, no really, I'm putting Sith down on the next UK Census.

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #26 on: 2010-09-10 12:36:53 »
I think it was a good idea.  It has been called off now sadly.  The Muslims and media like to portray Islam as a religion of peace but it is clear every time something like this happens that it is nothing but an intolerant and dangerous ideology.

One doesn't need to compare notes on religious scripture between the Christian Bible (regardless of canon), and the Koran, to realize they are no better than each other. The beliefs spawned by all of the Abrahamic teachings have lead to ignorance, and some of the worst atrocities in human history.

The only difference is that Christianity has been matured by human knowledge to the point of modernity, where Islam has not left the bronze age (though some try). Only the practitioners of Christianity have changed their views on the scripture, the book is still a hotbed of intolerance, and violent teachings. If one were to take the Bible literally, we'd all be moving back to the dark ages.


DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #27 on: 2010-09-10 14:36:19 »
That isn't true since Christian's mostly base their beliefs around the 4 gospels (and I have read all 4.  There is nothing in them which is anywhere near as bad or frequent as what is contained in the Koran).  This isn't the case with Muslims and Islam.  The book is not structured the same way, and there are far more problems with the Koran.  They are not "as bad as each other" at all.

If they were, Christians today would still be able to justify bombing people or sleeping with multiple wives.  That stopped because the 4 gospels don't condone it.  With Islam, the Koran has numerous quotes which create trouble.  The very fact we STILL have a problem with Islam is testament to the differences.

If you look at the islamic world and all its barbarity and problems and then compare it to the western world, you see a polar opposite.  Yes we have our problems, but they are nothing compared to that disease pit and unfortunately, Islam is at fault.

Churchill Wrote in 1899 after seeing it first hand:
Quote
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as
his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased
to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid
qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social
development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists
in the world.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-10 14:40:23 by DLPB »

Bosola

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #28 on: 2010-09-10 14:41:45 »
Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #29 on: 2010-09-10 16:13:59 »
That isn't true since Christian's mostly base their beliefs around the 4 gospels (and I have read all 4.  There is nothing in them which is anywhere near as bad or frequent as what is contained in the Koran).  This isn't the case with Muslims and Islam.  The book is not structured the same way, and there are far more problems with the Koran.  They are not "as bad as each other" at all.

By Christian Bible, I assume he includes the Old Testament, which certainly does have some horrific passages. Nonetheless, it is important to point out that two religions aren't necessarily equal just because both are "bad".  There are different levels of bad, and the whole "x is bad, y is bad, therefore you shouldn't criticise x" fallacy that's going around nowadays is intellectually dishonesty motivated by political correctness.

Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.

With the exception of a few lone weirdos, people don't believe that the latter gives them laws to obey, nor do they kill in its name.

However, I do find it amusing that people around the world are fighting over an anthropomorphisation of the laws of physics. What would E=mc^2 think?

DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #30 on: 2010-09-10 16:29:29 »
oh yes I completely agree.  Both should be criticised and rightly, but as you point out, people are trying to get out of this debate by using that fallacy.  I am against all religion, I just happen to be against Islam more than the rest, and for good reason.

Tekkie.X

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #31 on: 2010-09-10 18:51:12 »
Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.


Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #32 on: 2010-09-10 18:53:52 »
Hey, she's a virgin! That's her story and she's sticking to it. >:(

Shankifer

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #33 on: 2010-09-10 19:02:40 »
Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.
LOL-ograph here

I find this hilarious.

Too bad there aren't as many pictures like this for all the other religions too, you know just to be fair. To criticize everyone justly in our jokes...

and of course to have serious lolz :P

On a serious note, I think it's another thing that goes to show how much of a grip Christianity has on society.

I heard a seriously awesome thought today and I figured this thread might like to get in on it.

Someone mentioned that instead of fighting about which religion is better, in the maybe-not-so-far future, the top religious argument will be between believers and non-believers.

I thought this was seriously interesting to think about.

I also wonder what it would be like (not supporting a bias here, just pondering) if the whole government as a whole did not have any religion.

I just wonder how many things would be changed.

and how many things like this Koran burning could be avoided (seeing as our government leans to protect christian churches still [little bit of bias there, but not too much. Hope you can handle it :P]) with an Atheist government.

DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #34 on: 2010-09-10 20:16:21 »
Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault.  If not religion man would find another way to create trouble.  Humans are the real problem.

Shankifer

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #35 on: 2010-09-10 20:27:58 »
Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault.  If not religion man would find another way to create trouble.  Humans are the real problem.

True dat. :P

I told a bio teacher who asked "What is the best way to stop pollution" that the best way would simply be to just kill everyone, and then yourself  ;D

gjoerulv

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #36 on: 2010-09-10 20:59:30 »
Similar discussion on another forum spawned this.
Why does everyone still insist on quoting images

I'm a christian, but... lol

Burning the qu'ran? (yeah. I spelled it wit respect lol)
It's indeed an evil book, but I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish. More flag burning and hatred towards the west?

Well since religion was spawned by man, it is quite clear that man is at ultimate fault.  If not religion man would find another way to create trouble.  Humans are the real problem.

True dat. :-P

I told a bio teacher who asked "What is the best way to stop pollution" that the best way would simply be to just kill everyone, and then yourself  :-D

Anyone willing to start? I say each country pick a straw, then nuke the shortest. Hopefully there will be many people there.  ;-)
If population control is the means the achieve the goal, then Pol Pot and Hitler are one of our time's biggest heroes.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-11 05:13:15 by athleticbear »

Bosola

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #37 on: 2010-09-10 21:03:21 »
Off topic, I don't see any difference between 'God' and the natural chains of causality.

With the exception of a few lone weirdos, people don't believe that the latter gives them laws to obey, nor do they kill in its name.

However, I do find it amusing that people around the world are fighting over an anthropomorphisation of the laws of physics. What would E=mc^2 think?

To clarify, I don't believe in God, but I don't really see the difference between an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being, and the laws of physics. My reasoning is hard to articulate in a short space, but the gist is that I can't see how such a being could have volition without effecting it.

I should also remind people that the burning was aborted at the last minute. Thank Christ, so to speak, for common sense.

DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #38 on: 2010-09-10 22:17:51 »
Given the ridiculous intolerance and death threats from many Muslim countries over this, it will only be a matter of time before someone else does.


Miseru

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #39 on: 2010-09-11 00:53:23 »
 One thing unnoticed here is that Christianity never was peacefull and civilized religion while Islam was considered such in the distant history. It was mainly Christian Church that made an enemy of the world from Muslims, it was Christians that plundered muslim lands for wealth and power. It wasn't peacefull organization untill that was only way to save their power by them. Sure you'll not hear it in church couse they all say pink stuff about their history only, but read some stuff about history of europe. How many countries were considered barbaric and got ultimatum to take baptism or be deleted from the map? For one I know my country was for sure.
 It's Christian Church fault that islam fundamentalists gained power. All religions have fundamentalists but also have civilized and liberal people. It's pure luck "we" white people, europeans, americans stopped the dark and feudal rule of Church in the industrial age, with what's a big lol as this seems by history like opposite of liberalism but huge help of UK Monarhy. We stopped it, but we still have same fanatics among us like they - muslims have. It's just the proportions among those are different. We can be ateists, buddists, muslims, but if we live in "western" world, we all ballance out Christian Church to keep it off power, muslims living in islam countries doesn't have that. And all those wars about oil and other crap that our living is addicted from just make their fundamental side stronger.
 All of this is a closed circle that will finish itself only with full destruction, but who gave "us" living in "western" world right to do it if it's "we" who are reason of that? All wars, all fights, all conflicts with islam world is only making stronger all fundamental powers and I mean at all sides. Nobody else noticed that Christian Church with all it's historic and present crap coming out isn't turning weaker, but gaining strenght lately? Why? Couse stupid people who are affraid of death we trully are sentenced from birth belive in priests and some sacred mission of theirs to fight with islam.

 In other words if you care about peace you live in it's best to just ignore all of that crap. Soo what if somebody burn some sacred books, they'll kill him for that, but if we don't care they'll not gain anything. I doubt any human would "TRULLY" care about some non known to him person dying in the other end in the world. Sure it's politically right to care and we often show it, but if you would care about every death in the world, you would need to spend your life counting deaths every second couse that's about how often humans die in the world and nobody gives a shit about much better humans that this priest or whoever he is. Let them all destroy their sacred books, and kill each other for that untill none fundamentalist stay in our world this or different way.

 Especially that this isn't about religion anymore. All religions are good in their basis islam too, and all "sacred books" have their "sacred rights" about legal slavery and such things - christian bible too, for all black and asian christians it can be a shock, but originally "holy bible" put you below simple rodents, through not only as slaves could be taken for just being poor, it was actually a religion for "masters" not for simple people we can see that still seeing all gold palaces in current Watican. It all depends who rules over the church. And you surely can't say muslims are bad couse they're bad while your holy christian priest molest children in some of their local "palace". Shit happens, world isn't a pure and stright place from when humans started to organize in societys as the leader of each society will always plan his gain above his people and his people will only plan to replace the leader someday and soo another uselessly closed circle which creates politics and lowers every religion to mere political tool. If we care about all of that we should act in our own way not to stop one side, but both or "all" of them anyone dares to start a church which only sacred rule is to do anything to destroy other churches?  XD And I don't say religion as this is something else than church, religion is our faith we all have right to have different, our beliefs we keep in our own place for our own "spiritual gain" of any sort. While church is just an organisation ment to gain power and wealth by their followers.
 While if not, if we don't care a damn about, then why bother even thinking about it?

 Hah I generally don't bother even thinking about religions and their churches, but if you all knew what crap happens this summer in my country with church messing in politics, and religious symbol in public - even goverment rule symbolical place - defended by force by a group of fanatics lead by fail politicians nobody dares to touch with all legal means possible, you could understand why a person that doesn't give a damn, can write lots about the topic^_^. It's kind of scarry for such stuff to happen in other "western" countries as I would have no place to run in case my country fails. IMHO if no media would catch such topics and spam us with it everyday nothing trully would happen after burning any sacred books even originals if any exist couse nobody would just know about it. I feel like throwing out my TV out of the window from lack of usefull informations coming from it, but damn I like watching Top Gear too much. xD

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #40 on: 2010-09-11 10:08:55 »
Anyone willing to start? I say each country pick a straw, then nuke the shortest. Hopefully there will be many people there.  ;-)
If population control is the means the achieve the goal, then Pol Pot and Hitler are one of our time's biggest heroes.

I say we introduce communism to Africa and the Indian subcontinent. It's done wonders for the birth rate in China and Eastern Europe.

I also wonder what it would be like (not supporting a bias here, just pondering) if the whole government as a whole did not have any religion.

I just wonder how many things would be changed.

and how many things like this Koran burning could be avoided (seeing as our government leans to protect christian churches still [little bit of bias there, but not too much. Hope you can handle it :P]) with an Atheist government.

Whoa, there! I agree that not being influenced by religion is necessary for a good government, but history has shown that it is nowhere near sufficient. There have been atheist governments only slightly less evil than the religious ones, and thanks to their countries' population and their superior technology and infrastructure, they've had a higher kill count.

No, secularism is just one step towards the creation of a good government.

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #41 on: 2010-09-11 14:53:20 »
Quote
America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.

"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said

Errrr no, Mr. Obama.  It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.

I am tired of all this appeasement and lying.  They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace.   :o

The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him.  Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird!  Double standards yet again.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-11 14:58:56 by DLPB »

The Seer of Shadows

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #42 on: 2010-09-11 17:08:25 »
That "you have the right of free will" is, in this instance, just a pitiful excuse to do something unacceptable.

The right of freedom assumes that all human beings have some common sense - some extent of maturity.  Which, sadly, is simply untrue.

The Koran holds deep spiritual significance for many people, as does the Bible.  Burning them, just for the heck of agitation?  There already seems to be a conflict between certain domains of the two religions, and all this is going to do is add fuel to the fire.

titeguy3

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #43 on: 2010-09-11 18:58:45 »
This is a bit of a sensitive issue for me and I've shut up for long enough so far, so bear with me and please listen to my two cents:
Quote
America would never be at war with Islam, Mr Obama declared.

"It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda," he said

Errrr no, Mr. Obama.  It was a bunch of Muslims who found numerous justification within their holy book the Koran, and so, yes, religion was what attacked you. Had their been no Islam or religion, there would have been no attack.

I am tired of all this appeasement and lying.  They are absolutely terrified of Islam and yet still call it the Religion of Peace.   :o

The American law states clearly that an American has the right to certain freedoms which include burning flags, offending and burning books, yet Mr. Obama was speaking against it, and even the FBI were round to this guys house trying to stop him.  Had this been a bible (and plenty of those are burned), no one would have said a dicky bird!  Double standards yet again.
A) I agree with what you said earlier about religion being the offspring of man, and thusly flawed in and of itself

B) I believe the term you wanted was "there would have been no attack"

C) It's been my understanding that Al-Qaeda (which is a name often used all-encompassingly to multiple extremist factions in the middle east), while claiming their actions in the name of "Islam", act solely for the purpose of acquiring political power and invoking fear in the middle east. I'm quite certain that even if Islam never existed, corrupt, power-hungry factions like this would still exist and simply claim their actions in the name of some other convenient excuse.
Claiming that this violence would never have happened had the religion not existed contradicts the statement I said I agreed with in point A. Religion isn't the source of mankind's evil, it just has the potential to be a manifestation of it.

D) What would you propose Obama should have said? "f*ck Islam, those f*ckers, let's kill 'em all! F*ckin' A-Rabs! [/redneck accent]"? What he said was perfectly reasonable, and he wasn't trying to appease jack sh*t. He was trying [commendably] to prevent the unjustified antagonization of all Muslims in general by the American people, as it's that same type irrational antagonization and fear-mongering that led to acts of history like the Holy Crusades (all 9 of 'em), or the Spanish Inquisition, or the Holocaust. Not all Muslims are Al-Qaeda the same way that not all Christians are members of the KKK or the Nazi Party. To claim anything along those lines is just...f*cking retarded.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-11 19:00:29 by titeguy3 »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #44 on: 2010-09-11 19:42:25 »
Although religion is a creation of man, I think Seifer is right in what he says.

9/11 was a suicide bombing. Those people would not have killed themselves if they had not believed in a religion that promises death is not the end. Al-Qaeda needed religion for this. This brings me onto point two:

Religion has a unique power to enable evil. Firstly, religion (or the Abrahamic religions, at least) claims greater authority for its moral proclamations because it claims that its laws are made by God. They are completely unquestionable because they are from a perfect, omniscient being who not only is always right, but decides what it right according to his whims.

Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.

BTW, the fact that man created religion does not mean that man controls it. religion is like Frankenstein's monster: its creator has completely lost control of it and it does its own thing. Religion takes on a life of its own and comes from the unconscious instincts and assumptions of humans. In fact, there's a good case for saying that it isn't created by humans at all, or at least not by conscious humans. In any case, it can very well be said to be the source of much evil.

PS. I think Obama should have said "f*ck Islam" just for the lulz. He's pretty boring, so that would have livened things up.

I'd also be interested to see whether people would stop calling him a Muslim if he said that. I doubt it. ;D

DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #45 on: 2010-09-11 23:19:09 »
Yes I corrected the "their" to "there" elsewhere and forgot to do it here, not that it matters.  I don't come on forums to make sure every word is perfect.

There is no question at all that the suicide bombers get their authority from the Koran.  This is a fact.  Not only does it instruct followers to kill unbelievers, it also instructs that great rewards of v.irgins await.  So it is rewarding death as long as it is a "holy war", and unfortunately the Koran allows pretty much anything to be made a holy war if the target is not Islamic.

My problem with Obama was not that he and the others haven't come out and said "look Islam is a problem" which they should have done by now.  In this particular episode, it was the fact that he told American's that it was un-American to offend, burn books etc.  Which is sheer nonsense because it is a fundamental right in the American constitution.  It was very hypocritical of him.  To send FBI to the guys house and go so mad over it, only made him look completely out of touch with what the constitution allows and what freedom of expression is.

These guys aren't stupid, they know full well how bad and how dangerous Islam is, but they have cooked up this little game of appeasement in the hope that it will go away because they are afraid of what the result might be (Bush was just as bad, he came out with this whole Islam is peaceful crap too).  Perhaps it will, but history has shown that these tactics seldom, if ever work; if they don't...  well we are in for a lot of sh*t.

http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/1274/LTC-Allen-West-for-Congress.aspx

Quote
“Let me say this. And this – I don’t care about being popular or whatever. The first thing you got to do is you got to study and understand who you’re up against. And you must realize that this is not a religion that you’re fighting against. You’re fighting against a theo-political belief system and construct. You’re fighting against something that’s been doing this thing since 622 A.D. Since the 7th Century. Thirteen hundred and eighty-eight years.
You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim Army at the Battle of Tours in 732? You want to ask the Venetian fleet at Lepanto why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571? You want to ask the Christian, I mean the Germanic and Austrian Knights why they were fighting at the Gates of Vienna in 1683? You want to ask people what happened at Constantinople and why today it’s called Istanbul because they lost that fight in 1453.
You need to get into the Koran. You need to understand their precepts. You need to read the Surah. You need to read the Hadithe. And then you can really understand this is not a perversion. They are doing exactly what this book says…” (applause, lots of it)


Until the leadership of the United States is willing to say that, we will just keep on chasing our tails.


Quote
Secondly, religious people often say "hurr atheism has the potential for the greatest evil because atheists don't fear punished after death for doing evil things". I say religion has the potential for the greatest evil because it can promise rewards after death for doing evil things. REWARDS OF 72 RAISINS! Therefore, religion can take away the greatest impediment for doing crazy sh*t. Atheists may not fear what comes after death, but they at least fear death itself. If you believe in an afterlife in which you will be rewarded for killing Americans and Jews, then when your moral intuitions have been overcome by belief in divine proclamation, there's nothing to stop you from killing.

Nice to see someone gets this totally.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-12 04:14:21 by DLPB »

Opine

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #46 on: 2010-09-12 12:20:08 »
C) [...]
D) [...]
^ Those.

REWARDS OF 72

Q. Where are my virgins?
A. Here are your raisins!

Marc

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #47 on: 2010-09-12 18:10:50 »
Regarding most of the opinions in this thread, I'd reccomend everybody watches the BBC documentary The Power Of Nightmares.

Some parts are somewhat dry but it is by far one of the best take on the subject I've seen.

Here's a playlist where the first 6 videos were part 1 to 6 of the documentary :http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF86B79B4D1425E&playnext=1&v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ

Very interesting parallel betwen US and Islamic fundamentalism and how some individuals use it to push their views, emcompassing 9/11.

DLPB_

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #48 on: 2010-09-12 19:20:13 »
Of course the BBC is a left wing organisation which is completely crippled by Political Correctness.  Just because some people like to use it to peddle their agenda, does not make this any less real.

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Re: Koran Burning a Bad Idea? (Sept, 11th)
« Reply #49 on: 2010-09-12 19:30:11 »
Does anyone remember the 1990s, when leftists said the exact same thing, only this time they insisted the BBC was a tool of the Conservative Party? Remember that season they did asking if "White, working class Britain is disappearing"?

I like the idea that the Right is dreadfully underrepresented by the media, though.

The far Left and far Right have always been paranoid, though. Anyone who insists OMG U R SO BLIND ITS A CONSPIRACY ZOMFG!!! is usually not worth paying too much attention to.