Ohh yeah!

[meesbaker]

Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all. That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine. You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it. The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.

I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.

Here is why I like the story (BIG SPOILERS):
1. Characters. Its absolutely a question of taste. I liked how their personalities were made up of more than one striking characteristic like its done in xii or xiii. At first it seems that way of course: we have the relaxed one, the raging one, the cool one etc. but in the course of the story we learn more about their personalities and personal stories. Aurons intentions are something I found most interesting.
You said Auron didnt tell the party about yunalesca as they "wouldnt have believed it" but thats not what he said. He said "if i told you, would that really have stopped you from coming?"

After you learn all about auron you should get what he means. Everyone just thinks aurons always cool n stuff; the "legendary guardian". Remember on the top of gagazet "I was just a boy about your age. I wanted to change the world, too but I changed nothing. Thats my story"

Plus Auron had a very personal matter with yunalesca as she killed jecht and braska in aurons eyes and of course hinself, too. The reason auron didnt say anything about yunalesca is because he wants the change that he could not bring on his first journey. Nobody celebrates yunalescas death more than auron, to mika he sounds all proud and satisfied "summoners and their guardians will sacrifice themselves no more."

You know the way the party of ffx is. They would have planned exactly who becomes the fayth for yuna and executed it that way without asking if they had been prepared and had the time to think about it. Auron WANTED the big surprise. He wanted yuna to turn her back on the final summoning and kill yunalesca. But thats not easy to talk about if the whole pilgramege is about the acquisition of the final summoning.

2. Zanarkand. I love how the truth about the legendary metropolis is slowly revealed in the course of the game. I found it very interesting and well done. The whole time you think it was time traveling till you find out that tidus zanarkand is physically existent in the ocean outside of Spira and Sin is not some punishment but ju yevons weapon to ensure that humanity will never develop far enough to be able to reach the dream zanarkand. CRAZY! That was most amazing.

3. Twists...dont seem constructed just to have a twist at all. I found the narration very consistent. At first you believe all the stuff about Spira but we can easily tell that there is something fishy about it. Everyone believes sin is some punishment and a religious thing but that was just made up by the order of yevon as they know that sin was created by ju yevon to destroy the machina and keep humanity away from the dream zanarkand. How the game slowly reveals how corrupted and creepy yevon is, all their teachings just hypocritical crap and their highest rank members...dead creepy zombies. That gave me chills I just loved that!

4. Yuna! Shes worth an own point you say its annoying how they keep safing her which sounds like shes some stupid helpless princess. But yuna is stronger and more determined than anyone else, she would do no less for her guardians than they do for her. She accepts her own death, marrying an asshole and turning herself against yevon all for the sake of the people of spira and for her friends. Yuna helps out against seymor, too. Yuna risks her life on the marriage scene to protect her guardians and she decides to finally break the cycle and get rid of yunalesca and the final summoning.

5. MUSIC!! the deep story of ffx is perfectly powered by another amazing uematsu soubdtracks. Ffx is one of his best ones imho which is a matter of taste again...

[DLPB_]

Oh no here we go... a dispute! It's usually me at the centre of this but luckily I am pissed!   

[Mendelevium]

If someone doesn't like something, and has an argument why, why do people find it necessary to force them to see 'reason'?

So he likes FF XII better than X, why does that make us angry? People should be allowed their opinions.

You can have your reasons why you like or dislike something, but we shouldn't argue over who is right or wrong here, because that argument will lead no where.
There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.

[gjoerulv]

Hehe, I'm not angry, I find it amusing to discuss these kinda things. Maybe because of the silliness that is opinion vs opinion.

Most of your points are things that dont really determine if the story is good or not. You sound like you dont want a story at all which is maybe why you like xii as it doesnt even have anything to tell at all.

You nailed it. I also like food with no taste.

That whole "why dont protagonists just kill each other right on every first oppertunity they have" approach is something you can put on every game and movie. We want something to actually happen and if there are some logical mistakes thats fine.

Acceptance was one of my key points. To put it diffrently, if the flow of the story feels consistnent, flows naturally, etc, it's easier to swallow it/accept it. If "him" not killing "him" when he "should", it shouldn't have to be accepted at face value. Yuna not sending Seymour after we have been shown her resolve to do so, should, imo, have a reason communicated to the player.

You say you dont like the story but you dont really comment on it.

I think I was rather specific. Well... specific enough considering it's off topic and all...

The story is made up by the characters, the plot, the world we are in, the stuff that is narrated. Its mostly a question of taste if you like that about ffx or not but as you accused me of having a "clouded judgment" I expected something more objective and story-related than commenting on haircuts and picking out irrelevant details that dont make perfect sense.

I feel like its the other way round: You just dislike the game for some reason and search for points why that might be true.

I criticise design desicion that I find flawed. That is valid when judging a piece of entertainment such as an interactive story. And I was being rather specific about some story elements that can be viewed as a sin (<- see what I did there  ), objectivly speaking, considering storytelling.

To make perfect sense is one thing; to make no sense is another.


I do take back what I said about Auron though. In the framework of his character arc it's not that stupid. He wanted them to have a shock reveal.


To say something good about 10:

There is that lure twist (Sin is Jecht) that sets the groundwork for the other twists. That was well done imo.

Tidus as a surrogate character. Although annoying as hell, I think the decision to make the protagonist a childish/immature surrogate character was very good considering the framework. Tidus as the avatar for the player works very well, I must admit. Him being immature is also a key design decision that served the story good.

The themes of gnosticism, religion, tradition, etc. The people of Spira have very short timespan to recover. If they're not recovering from Sin, they are preparing for Sin. This is pretty much their entire life. If you manage to adopt their mindset, you can't really blame their incapability to end the spiral of death. This puts the whole religion and tradition themes in gray zone, moraly speaking. It's their way of struggling to keep head above water. It's all they know.

FF10 had easily the biggest potential to be the best FF story. A few weird decisions broke that potential.

The best scene in 10 is probably the scene with Yunalesca <- somewhat on topic

[meesbaker]

I see noone angry and no dispute. Just discussing/debating. I force noone to have my opinion I just made my points clear. Only cuz something is subjective doesnt mean you cant talk about it or that you have to listen to anything people say about your evaluation without commenting. I just made some points on ffx clear to show my friend here that it is absolutely possible to love x and hate xii without being drunk, clouded or not honest  about your own opinion in any way.

If someone thinks Im wrong and still doesnt believe its no rage or dispute saying that back and I force no opinions at all if I come up with more points about the game in response then.


I seriously dont understand those reaction, relax guys we're cool and even if gjoerulv disagrees with me 100% Id take a bet he is as relaxed as I am- nobodys angry here.

[DLPB_]

There are no right answers here. It is all a matter of taste.

I disagree with that assertion.  There are numerous flaws in XII that simply don't exist in X or other Final Fantasy games.  Personal opinions are made up of facts and observations.  A blanket "It's all opinion" won't cut it. 

For example, the character development of XII being lacklustre isn't an opinion.  It is something we can all see and we can compare it to the other games and point out the numerous issues with it and the story.  Gambits may be a matter of taste, but what isn't is that it takes control away from the player.  Now in my view that's a criminal error for a game to make, because a game should be giving you more control (FFX you could even control the Aeons).  In XII there are no quirks or clever mechanics... it is all hack and slash, and the majority of that all you are touching is the "up" control.

People enjoy games for different reasons, but I'd suspect the large majority of people who take exception to XII do so for the same reason as me., namely the bare story and plot, disastrous pacing (it really is bad), non existent character development, and reduced game play value in favour of "gambits" auto-slash characters.

[EQ2Alyza]

I enjoyed the combat in FFX, especially the final battle. I didn't really care for much else in the game.

[Lionsmane]

    I remember plugging up my ps2 for the first time and putting in ffx; the fmv with the black mages playing in the background and Auron looking like a badass really hyped me up.
    But somewhere around the point when Seymour starts to become more prevalent in the game I quit playing. He just looked sooo silly to me.

[meesbaker]

He looked at Sephiroth's hair and decided to boost it a little. I wonder if Seymors haircut is somehow physically possible

[Lionsmane]

Ask the punks from the 70's-80's, lol I think they used to use gelatin and bees wax to keep their mohawks so high.

[meesbaker]

Yes but did they have branches in multiple directions ? I wonder if that can be done somehow

[gjoerulv]

Imagine Seymour with a mohawk. Ar a reversed mohawk. 

[Mendelevium]

All I meant was, whether something is good or bad artistically, intellectually, etc... Isn't the problem. Rather, that's all good and fine, but just because someone likes it when others don't we shouldn't get mad at someone over that.

I thought FF XII had interesting ideas, awful execution and not enough character development, but I didn't /hate/ the game. I found aspects of it charming. In fact I argued once, if the name Final Fantasy wasn't in the title the game wouldn't be getting nearly so much hate. -Edit- I never finished XII, ultimately because I felt the story fell flat.  I do not like it as a whole. -Edit done-

However, I do not want to be a part of a bigger debate. All I meant is we are allowed our own tastes and opinions.

[StickySock]

How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8? Anyways, the biggest problem for me about ffxii was that it seemed like Vaan and Penelo didn't need to be there and seemed to be added into as an after thought. I always thought Balthier really should have been the lead of the game. Yeah, and as mentioned before the horrific amount of MMO-like grinding required in that game. Ffx's main problem for me was Tidus's voice actor. My god hearing him speak was unbearable. If I had to choose, ffx>ffxii because of battle system

[DLPB_]

FF8 may have had a few plot issues, but the character interaction was very strong.  The characters were also interesting, and the story kept you interested.  The garden battle sequence was superb, as were most of the set pieces.  It had a lot going for it even if it wasn't perfect.     It certainly wasn't entire open areas separated by a few lines of dialogue for over 20 hours.

[Covarr]

How can you guys sit back and bash on ffx and ffxii's stories while most of you like FF8?

Because FF8 at least got off to a VERY strong start. The first act was great, the second act (discs 2, 3) was... okay, the characters (except Squall) were well-defined and interesting the whole way through (even in the abysmally stupid final act), and even the parts of the story that didn't work were at least well-presented.

In Final Fantasy X, you effectively play as a sidekick. Tidus is certainly important to the story, but when it comes right down to it, this is Yuna's story (in spite of what Tidus himself actually says). This works okay, especially since Tidus has a fairly strong subplot disguised as the main plot for a large chunk of the game, and since Tidus goes the entire time thinking he's the star even at points when he's clearly not. It's slightly problematic, especially if the player puts themselves too much into Tidus' shoes and agrees that he's the main character, but it works well enough for most players.

Final Fantasy XII forces the player to see the story unfold from the point of view of a character with virtually no actual involvement. The dungeons are effectively filler segments, between cutscenes, and the Vaan's main purpose is to witness a story going on around him. He's got his own internal conflict, but it has virtually nothing to do with the main plot. Honestly, the way this game was written, it's almost as though Basch was originally going to be the main character and Vaan was a last-minute addition. It's only reasonable that when the protagonist is tacked on like this, people will get annoyed with the story; even if it had been a good story (it's not), it's told through the wrong POV, which really ruins the pacing and storytelling.

[meesbaker]

Its because FF8 has good characters. Same for x, but unlike xii. Thats a significant reason to many players and probably why many ff fans like 8 and x but not 12.
Although most story events after disc 1 are senseless(which made this squallsdead theory come up that I quite appreciate though I know its not Square's intention) I love playing the story as Squall is amazing and the music is among the best of all time imho.

I also like the much hated junction system. It was very dynamic and allowed more ways of getting powerful and beating bosses with little to no training than ff7's materia system did. There are thousands of combinations for materia setups but as most are similiar or useless its more linear than it seems at first.

I go for 7>8=x>rest

8 for gameplay and characters, x for everything related to the plot and 7 for everything about the game plus the modding fun xD

[StickySock]

@Covarr: I agree with your assessments of 10 and 12 for the most part, I just don't see where they fall behind 8's. 10 in particular I feel surpasses 8's story in every way. The beginning of 8 (before it gets way too convoluted and stupid) I felt was in the mediocre-good range but still nothing to vault it over 10. I'm not trying to bash it, I guess I just feel like most people find the stupid parts of 8 acceptable or at least excusable because of something that justifies it. I find that most of the problems with 10's story are excused by my subconscious because of the supporting cast (auron in particular) and a wide variety of factors including just how creative the story got without plummeting into nonsense, like with 8. I haven't found anything like that in 8's story, so I guess I would just need someone to way the pros and cons of the story and explain why the pros outweigh the cons.

@meesbaker: I was mainly talking about the story of the game, because I do appreciate aspects of the game such as freedom and places to explore. But I personally fail to see where 8's characters are interesting to be honest. I don't want anyone to take offense to this, but I like the story and characters somewhat of every final fantasy bar 1 & 8. I will list how the game made me feel about the characters for the duration of the "good" part of the story, before the game becomes too stupid ( for lack of a better term) to pay attention to.

In my opinion, selphie is the worst of all the annoying girls in her archetype. (Rikku, Penelo who was useless and pointless but less annoying, Yuffie, etc. are all less annoying to me).

Zell is completely unlike able and says the most stupid sh*t all throughout the game (like Tidus but worse)

Quistis I actually liked because she seemed to be the most calm out of the group without being too inactive (maybe there were two other large reasons I liked her as well lol)

Rinoa was unlike able chasing after the d-bag that is seifer for the first part of the game and I guess the dislike stuck with me as the story got progressively worse.

Squall is the epitome of what people hate about post KH1 (first appearance of emo cloud) cloud. I feel like every negative people have for advent children cloud or dissidia cloud or any appearance in which he is some quiet, loner, emo, whiner was done to an even greater extent with Squall.

Irvine is actually built up to be somewhat like able, only to find out he is an unlike able coward. (Can't pull the trigger is the biggest and most obvious example)



Edit: @DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better than 10's in your opinion? As I mentioned above, I wasn't impressed by the majority of the cast of 8 and the story in fact did not keep me interested. After the first disc it almost became painful, a chore to read the dialogue boxes (which I do obsessively in ff4, 6, 7, and 9). Like I said to Covarr, maybe I just someone (you perhaps?) to list the pros and cons of the story in detail so I can gain some better perspective on why the story of this game is so unanimously defended. I'm not saying it is objectively awful, for obviously I am in the minority. I just feel so out-of-loop when people constantly bring it up as a way to exemplify story-telling that modern games should take note of. People say square was better at story telling during the likes of 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9, and I am always puzzled by the inclusion of 8 on the list of great story telling.

[DLPB_]

@DLPB Aside from any gameplay, was anything in the story of 8 better that 10's in your opinion?

Well if you start FF8, the first thing that happens is you see 2 guys having an awesome sword fight.  They both get cut.  Then one wakes up in hospital (your character) and you learn that the other guy is Seifer and was your combat partner.  Within 5 minutes you have seen a mysterious lady at the window (Ellone).  So the game within 5 minutes has already given you 2 main things to think about. 

You expand out from there to learn that you are training to be a SeeD, and from there you are sent on a mission to Dollet and Deling where you eventually lose Seifer to a sorceress.  Along with everything else that happens during this period, there's no denying that a LOT of people, myself included, will be interested in that story.  It has a lot of things going on, and for me it was fun.  The ending, as Covarr said, with all that time compression nonsense, was badly done, but it was not a deal breaker.  It was a slight flaw in what was a pretty good story about how a damaged boy learns to love again and let go of his past.  I also liked the final Causality Loop twist where you learn Squall was the one who started Garden and the SeeDs.

I mean, yes there were flaws, but the main story was interesting to me. It asked questions all the way through, and let's not forget the dream sequence with Laguna, where you are trying to fathom what on earth is going on.  You learn that this is the past and that Ellone can send you there looking through the eyes of another.  FF8 kept you wondering and guessing, and that's what a good story does.

In terms of what FF8 did story wise better than 10?  It's hard to say because they were both solid stories with good characters.  But I'd say FF8's characters were better than 10's overall.  There is a proper internal rivalry as well with Seifer and Squall, where none exists in 10.  And yeah, 10 has a more convincing story with less plot holes.  I loved both games.

None of the games I have played have beaten FF7 though.  My favourite games in terms of story are:

FF7-FF10-FF8-FF9.  That's the order I'd put for them overall too (although FF9 gameplay was superior in quite a few areas and was damn fun).

[Rundas]

I don't know about story wise, that's a really hard decision, but overall, FF9 is my favorite. There are no nostalgia shades over my eyes because I didn't play any FF's until I was about 18. FF9 has very distinct, but also dynamic characters. Dagger is the most obvious example. It also had the best music of any Final Fantasy in my opinion, which greatly enhanced the gravity and seriousness of some of the events in the game. (i.e. Burmecia, Freya's love story, Vivi's existence). The combat was also very straight forward, but varied and challenging as well. Each character had a clearly defined role, but there are a lot of combinations between characters and battle interaction. I also absolutely love the equipment/ability system and think it paces your ability to become overpowered and also encourages varied play and layouts (i.e. changing abilities to fit the situation).

[DLPB_]

A big plus to FF9 from me is the fact the design team realised bigHP does not equal Difficulty.  Using 2 byte upper limits for HP amounts worked just how it should when you design your game around it.

[Rundas]

Yes, a game's difficulty should not be dependent on your level or how much you grind. You should have some involvement past clicking Attack Enemy A 50,000 times.

[meesbaker]

I disagree with what has been said about Zell. He has nothing to do with the TROLOLO chara like Yuffie. He is brave enough to do anything for his friends(remember the galbadia prison) and among all the shit hes talking there is a lot of smart stuff in there. In the beginning youre supposed to think hes an idiot as squall tells you and as he always has beef with Cifer. But in the course of the game you learn that he has the most clue of the world of ff8. He knows a lot and handles machines
Remember on the bahamut island squall" maybe I should give this guy more credit".

I also didnt find him annoying at all, in fact he is actually squalls strongest and most reliable seed. Remember who leads the troops in the courtyard during the garden fight. Who squall trusts to save Rinoa, who leads on the attack against the Galbadia Garden, who looks out for edea while squall is in space....

I liked Zell quite a lot he stands for his friends and families and he has a cool fighting style and limit breaks. Dont see his connection to Yuffie. Yuffie knows nothing useful, literally talks shit and is there to troll the party. Id love to see Zell smack Yuffies face lol

[StickySock]

@DLPB: Fair enough, maybe I just had too big of expectations for 8 because it was one of the last ff's I played, (I've played them all in the main numbered series excluding the online ones), and since it was so beloved I expected to fall in love with it like I had with 4, 6, 7, 9, and 10.

@meesbaker: I only mentioned Yuffie as reference for the archetype of Selphie, that reference had nothing to do with Zell.

[meesbaker]

Yes I see it now. And youre right there, Selphie is useless. But nothing is as terrible as Yuffie. I hated her steal my materia >:O