FF14 panned by critics and users

[Covarr]

The only FF games I'd argue aren't true FF games are the online ones.

[DLPB_]

Well FF 13 isn't strictly speaking an RPG.  Not in the sense that you need to have proper towns, proper battle system (not AI), shops and so on...

an RPG is a list of criteria, not just "role playing".  And when gameplay is second fiddle to story, there is a problem.  There should always be balance.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I suppose there's a belief that a series' identity is not undermined by continuous evolution, but can be heavily undermined by sudden, massive changes in areas such as gameplay or in terms of less tangible ideas such as the "spirit" of the game. It's reasonable to say that such a revolution has happened in FF.

I mean, if someone's personality changes slowly (evolves, if you will), you'd say that he's still the same person. However, if his personality suddenly changes overnight to the point where he is unrecognisable, you'd have to ask yourself whether he's really the same person that he was before. You might even doubt whether someone is the same person they used to be if the changes are slow but still huge.

Of course, this debate is all just philosophy, a subject where actual answers are rarely found and intellectual masturbation is the order of the day, so maybe we should go no further.

What can be said with confidence is that there is some "quality" that used to belong to Final Fantasy games that has been lost. Exactly what that "quality" is, and whether its loss is important enough for us to say that the series is now FF in name only, remains to be seen.

[xLostWingx]

It would be interesting to compare views of different groups of FF players.  For example, what do those who started with FF1 and played through the whole series think versus what players who started with FFVII, or FFX think.  I imagine that those starting with earlier games view current FFs as more of an atrocity than those who began later in the series.  FFVII is perhaps a unique case for a variety of reasons that you can all imagine.  Those who started with FFX probably think that FF is better than ever and look forward to future "improvements" to the series.  Those who's first encounter with Cloud and Sephiroth was in KH or Crisis Core probably think FFVII's Cloud is gay and Sephiroth not as cool (or something idk, just speculation now).  I started with VII and hadn't really played any RPGs before that.  However, I made sure to go play the previous games (mostly due to the time between FFx+1 releases).

My personal opinion is that most all of the FFs were awesome with no game-ruining flaws.  I loved FFIX and played it many times, but there were a few issues that left a bad taste in my mouth.  Zidane wasn't as cool as previous main characters, but I shouldn't have been so critical since Tidus was his successor.  Then my PS2 broke and i got an Xbox.  Years later I found that I really had no interest in newer FFs.  I played half way through XII, started XIII but didn't do much with it (partially because I didn't have long-term access to a PS3).  FFVII is still, and always will be King for me though.  Fine-tuning it here makes it even better.  Ideally I would like to experience FVII 'for the first time' again, and modding is the closest thing to that.

Another important distinction, I think, is to be able to assign these titles a grade based on “Is it a good game?” and a different graded based on “Is it a good Final Fantasy?”  Many of the newer games qualify as ‘good games’ although I wouldn’t call them “excellent games,” but certainly do not qualify as “Good Final Fantasies.” 

*side-note*  @Kudistos,  What are studying/is your profession?  I ask because you seem to have a fairly good grasp on many psychological concepts, and are also able to explain things in a psychological way.  That is what I’m going to school for, but much of what I ‘know about psychology’ wasn’t taught to me.  I was just curious if you’ve had any formal schooling in psychology or if most of your perspectives are just due to some naturalistic intelligence and/or respect for the empirical method

[Kudistos Megistos]

It would be interesting to compare views of different groups of FF players.  For example, what do those who started with FF1 and played through the whole series think versus what players who started with FFVII, or FFX think.  I imagine that those starting with earlier games view current FFs as more of an atrocity than those who began later in the series.  FFVII is perhaps a unique case for a variety of reasons that you can all imagine.  Those who started with FFX probably think that FF is better than ever and look forward to future "improvements" to the series.  Those who's first encounter with Cloud and Sephiroth was in KH or Crisis Core probably think FFVII's Cloud is gay and Sephiroth not as cool (or something idk, just speculation now).  I started with VII and hadn't really played any RPGs before that.  However, I made sure to go play the previous games (mostly due to the time between FFx+1 releases).

I'd say that FFX is actually the last of the old games. The most noticeable change has been that from a traditional, turn-based JRPG to a game that's closer to real time and has more of a "Zelda with three people" feel.

I also doubt that there's much of a difference between the way people who started with 7 will see the direction the series is going in and how people who started earlier will see it. FF7 is definitely one of the "old" games now, no matter what the SNES fanboys and bandwagon jumpers may say.

That said, there's a chance that people who joined FF with X might see things differently if we suppose that they only played one main series game before the style change and didn't get hooked on the JRPG style. They may have started with an old-fashioned FF, but they didn't have time to get used to it.

On the subject of how people whose first experience with Cloud wasn't FF7, I've noticed a huge difference between how the old FF7 fans see him and see the characters and story as a whole, and the way the fans who joined later on see things (I'm thinking mainly of those whose first experience with FF7 was AC or CC).

Another important distinction, I think, is to be able to assign these titles a grade based on “Is it a good game?” and a different graded based on “Is it a good Final Fantasy?”  Many of the newer games qualify as ‘good games’ although I wouldn’t call them “excellent games,” but certainly do not qualify as “Good Final Fantasies.” 

This is an important distinction to make. None of the hated FF games would have got the same amount of flak if they didn't have FF on the cover, and not just because expectations would be lower.

*side-note*  @Kudistos,  What are studying/is your profession?  I ask because you seem to have a fairly good grasp on many psychological concepts, and are also able to explain things in a psychological way.  That is what I’m going to school for, but much of what I ‘know about psychology’ wasn’t taught to me.  I was just curious if you’ve had any formal schooling in psychology or if most of your perspectives are just due to some naturalistic intelligence and/or respect for the empirical method

I have absolutely zero formal training in psychology. I am somewhat trained in philosophy, however (there's a lot of overlap), and Classics (Oxford degree in Literae Humaniores).

[xLostWingx]

Your opinion on FFX seems to be the general concensus.  I can agree with that for the most part.  If the FF series started as a sunrise and the middle games in the series were a bright and sunny afternoon, I think that FFX is the sunset right before dusk.  Yeah, it is still daytime, but it isn't as bright or warm as it was earlier in the day.  On that note, recent FFs are a cold, damp, autumn night.  I just hope that the FF series has no winter season and instead goes from autumn to spring.

It seems a strange phenomenon that FF players who began with VII (it was a massive influx of players) seem to have gotten that "FF feeling" and felt it in a way similar to those who had played previous FFs.  This means it should be possible for that feelings to exist in the new games as well.  It is not there though.  I think that the changes in decision-makers in Squeenix intentionally molded FF into what it is today.  In this sense, FF is dead.  I think its time to stop the CPR and grieve.

@Kudistos Ah, the Philosophy background.  Just another shining example of the fact that everyone should be educated to some extent on Philosophy (and Psychology), and not just things like Algebra, Civics, Biology, etc. (although not everyone learns about these things even).  As an undergrad had a minor in Philosophy, although it was probably nice to study at Oxford.  It seems like there are nothing but Hermoors in some of my classes.

[Kudistos Megistos]

@Kudistos Ah, the Philosophy background.  Just another shining example of the fact that everyone should be educated to some extent on Philosophy (and Psychology), and not just things like Algebra, Civics, Biology, etc. (although not everyone learns about these things even).  As an undergrad had a minor in Philosophy, although it was probably nice to study at Oxford.  It seems like there are nothing but Hermoors in some of my classes.

They need to study it to some extent, yes (philosophy in particular would be helpful to modern populations whose critical thinking skills are poor). However, I'd say that humanities subjects work better as minors rather than majors.

[xLostWingx]

They need to study it to some extent, yes (philosophy in particular would be helpful to modern populations whose critical thinking skills are poor). However, I'd say that humanities subjects work better as minors rather than majors.

Humanities in general, yes I agree.  Psychology is "behavioral science."  It just gets grouped with humanities and people's connotations of Psychology seem to incorporate some idea of Freud and Oedipus Complex/Penis Envy etc. Contemporary Psychology is not very much like the idea that most people have.  Also, i meant students should be taught Philosophy and Psychology at a basic level in middle and high school so they can learn to think about things and also learn about what is going on behind thoughts/emotions/opinions.  Personally, i believe the human species is beyond repair, but thats not what we're talking about heh. 

So...FFXIV has been panned by critics and users.  Interesting.

Edit:  Well I may have discovered something that will cause XIV to be a huge success!  []Mature Content[] http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-09-16/ffxiv_miqo_te_nudity_mod_emerges.shtml#ue_pic []Mature Content[]

[endlessdamage]

I refuse to even buy 14. I refuse. I agree with most of you here when i say, I despise mmo games. Especially mmorpg's.

I never played 12 or 13, but once again. I dont plan to.

I tried 11, and it was a complete disgrace, if it wasn't for the previous FF's. I would have lost all respect for Square. 

Now before i say what I am about to, lets get something straight. I hated both X and X-2. The thing i wanna get across is that Tidus may not seem like an important character and can be removed, but he isnt! I have seen and heard many people say this, My family, friends, on other forums, and right here. ON A PURELY FF FORUM?! Come on now people. Tidus is the son of Ject. Now if you all can think back, Ject is like God is this story line! Ject is Sin. The only reason Yuna goes on her journey, is to defeat Sin. Sin being Tidus' father, is somewhat important. He is supposed to fight his father for the sake of the world along side Yuna.. Now am I the only one in the WORLD that see the significance Squeenix was trying to portray here?

Now about IX... I bought it. I played it for a day or so. And I don't know exactly what it was, but something rubbed me the wrong way. So wrong I had to put the game down before I tried to file for a restraining order.. So that game is somewhere in the depths of my closet. If it was a good game, I apologize. I also didn't really care for the whole 'little people' thing. No offense if anyone here is, or knows somebody who is a 'little person'

Ahh yes. Final Fantasy VIII. I am sorry you die hard 7 fans. This one was most definitely my favorite. Actually it is my favorite game in general. Everything was great. Especially the story line, it was the perfect balance between The fight for the greater good, maturing/growing up, of course the love inside of it (everyone knows about Squall and Rinoa, I know I am not the only one that noticed Zell and his library girl, Irvine and Selphie maybe? Cid and Matron! Laguna and Julia, and Raine!! the list goes on =] ) Quite possibly my favorite part of the game, and I know that this is a very controversial thing so please don't attack me for it. But I just loved the new junction system, I was very saddened that square never used it again ]= FMV!!! Need I say anymore about that? Well I will. They were stunning. Especially for their time. Yes VII had great strides with the graphics and such, But VIII really doesnt get as much credit as it deserves since everyone was waiting for something to blow them away from VII like VII did from everything else, yes it was an improvement. But we asked for too much from Square and expected more after how well VII was made compared to everything else, there are limits people! I feel as though I am going to far with talking about VIII so I will stop here, even though I could go on for hours =]

VII. It was great. As I just previously stated, nothing like it was out at the time. No game even came close. Everything was astonishing. This game came out when I was just a wee lad (9 to be exact =] ) and Tifa was my little boy crush for the longest time XD hehe VII is always talked about, everyone knows how great it was, so I don't feel I need to spend anymore time on this.

And I will end at this, instead of going further back in time I will stop, as I know this is a very long post, and after all this typing I would be devastated if it got deleted or nobody at all read it ]=



EDIT: By the way, I do apologize for such a long post to those who can't help but read everything like me =]

[Covarr]

I refuse to even buy 14. I refuse. I agree with most of you here when i say, I despise mmo games. Especially mmorpg's.

I don't despise MMORPGs. I just despise paying every month for a game I already bought. I'm loving Lord of the Rings Online, because it's free. I just can't afford to invest over $150 a year in a single game.

[xLostWingx]

@endlessdamage
First of all, you should go dig IX out.  Based on your preferences, I can understand why it may have been difficult to get into, but it was quite good.  It was a bit slow in the beginning, but the game is simply trying to adequately develop the characters.  If you don't like it, at least try zoning out and mashing the X button until you make it to Lumbridge (here you can actually start making decisions), and if you can't get into the game at that point then you may as well put it back away.

We can probably all agree that VIII was excellent.  Of course some enjoyed it more than others, and some enjoyed it more than VII...i guess we can allow this.  The junction system was pretty fun, although I feel like Square could have done a lot more with it (specifically how, idk...but it feels that way).  I don't really think people should be allowed to compare VII an VIII though.  Well of course they are allowed, but both games were incredibly unique and both quite good.  They both stood on their own merits which were pretty distinct from one another.  Junction-Awesome, GFs-Cool, Limit Breaks-Fun.  I won't bother saying what is good about VII, except that the materia system will always hold a special place in my heart.  Someone should calculate the actual # of combinations sometime.

Don't bother with XII or XIII, especially considering what you've told us so far.


I don't hate MMOs...but i acknowledge that they are evil.  Abrupt Ending...NOW!

[endlessdamage]

These damn discussions always send us all on rants   

I agree that VII and VIII shouldn't be directly compared, as they were both great, unique, and greatly unique.

The only real problem I saw with the junction system, was that no matter what level you were at, if you got a hold of the right magic, the game became way too easy. The only real thing I could think of to better it would be to only have certain magics unlocked depending on what your level was. I know that people will disagree with this, and not to sound like a d*ck or anything. But I don't really care XD I liked it, that is my opinion.

As for the MMO's, I completely agree with your "evil" statement. No offense to anybody, but I especially couldn't stand WOW. I felt like they were trying to baby everyone through it, and all I wanted to do was play the game. I used to like these mass online games. I am not exactly sure what turned me away, but it was most definitely between 3 games that ruined it for me. WOW being the first, FFXI, and last but definitely not least COD. Call of duty was great in the beginning. And by the beginning I mean only the first one. Then there were all these little kids, glitches, somehow someone always found a way to cheat. That pretty much ended my online career. Well with one exception. I happen to be addicted to Madden games =] But I guess this last little section here probably belongs in some other forum entirely, but it somewhat pertained to our discussion.

[END OF MINI-RANT]

EDIT: I know COD doesn't really fit in there, I was merely explaining which games turned me away from the online world. I was merely giving my reasoning.

[Timber]

I know you guys love bashing squenix, but you need realise that being an online RPG, it will be constantly updated, for the next 10 years or so.

Now I agree the game shouldn't have been released in its current state, but Squenix have even already detailed a patch that fixes a majority of the issues that reviewers and players mention, that will be released in a few weeks. They have also extended the free trial period.

If you guys actually read the reviews, you will find the important things such as story, graphics, the class and battle systems, are actually good.
The major gripes are with the horrible interface and menus, the economy, the maps. These are things that can, and will, be fixed.

[yoshi314]

I know you guys love bashing squenix, but you need realise that being an online RPG, it will be constantly updated, for the next 10 years or so.

uhh yeah, just like ff11 on ps2.

[Jaitsu]

i know i'll get bashed, but again, i actually liked XIII, i was uber-pissed it was so bloody linear and you could only use one character in the party, but for some unkown reason, i did enjoy playing it. maybe it was the idea of using thoughs style transformation thingy's (dun remember what there called) but i loved the idea that strategy was needed against bosses, and at least it didn't end the game after the final boss. i like games that let you keep playing after.

[Covarr]

The boss fights are the biggest reason that I really enjoyed XIII. It feels like the game is designed with sort of a "trial run" mentality, where you are pretty much expected to lose against a boss your first time (or more) and in fact not even try to win so much as try to develop a strategy. It seems that the time investment in bosses is about the same overall as in other games, but it's more focused on repeated attempts that are either failed or completed in under a minute each, as opposed to a long, drawn-out survival-fest where the goal is just to not die for ten to fifteen minutes, healing when needed and attacking when possible as seen in most other FF games.

It's really interesting to me how whether you win or lose, you do it quickly. In that sense, I feel this would be a good game for speedrunning, because of the way a good strategy is infinitely more useful and faster than grinding.

Although, I also loved XII, I enjoyed the story, thought the MMO-style battles were fun, and was only slightly put off by the bizarre and broken difficulty curve.

In fact, the only FF's that I've played and didn't like were I (crap story, crap game balance), II (crap story, pain in the ass memory system), and X (shoddy camera/controls, nothing else is really too terrible, but not good enough to make up for that damn camera). In fact, XIV seems to have taken some cues from II, with its emphasis on menu navigation interfering with the game itself.

[endlessdamage]

In fact, the only FF's that I've played and didn't like were I (crap story, crap game balance), II (crap story, pain in the ass memory system), and X (shoddy camera/controls, nothing else is really too terrible, but not good enough to make up for that damn camera). In fact, XIV seems to have taken some cues from II, with its emphasis on menu navigation interfering with the game itself.

Okay, you can't really bash one and two. seriously now. Think about when those games were made. They couldn't really develop those games to the extent they should have been.

[xLostWingx]

Hmm, it seems that we've almost made a full 360 now.  Any comments about the last few posts I could make, would probably include points that have already been made previously.  The "good game" versus "good final fantasy" arguement comes to mind.  I have to agree with Covarr about the boss battles in XIII though.  I only fought like 5 of them, but they were surprisingly challenging the first time around.  That was refreshing.  I feel like I would love XII and XIII if I had never played VII or VIII (and others).

[Covarr]

In fact, the only FF's that I've played and didn't like were I (crap story, crap game balance), II (crap story, pain in the ass memory system), and X (shoddy camera/controls, nothing else is really too terrible, but not good enough to make up for that damn camera). In fact, XIV seems to have taken some cues from II, with its emphasis on menu navigation interfering with the game itself.

Okay, you can't really bash one and two. seriously now. Think about when those games were made. They couldn't really develop those games to the extent they should have been.

I can bash them, because they're not fun anymore. They simply haven't held up the way other, earlier games have, such as Space Invaders, or Super Mario Bros. Besides which, I and II have been remade repeatedly, and the remakes aren't terribly fun either, usually suffering from most of the same problems. Hell, even Final Fantasy III for the NES was a lot better. It didn't have much story either, but they finally got the gameplay right, balanced, and generally fun. I know, it was made later than the first two, but they still had the same limitations of the system to work with.

[endlessdamage]

Just because a game is no longer fun doesn't mean that it wasn't good at one point in time. Yes they don't compare to Mario Brothers, but they were quite arguably the greatest games of all time. For any age, even if you aren't a gamer. Remakes? Seriously, when was the last time you played a remake that was actually better then the original? Also I and II were in the utter infancy of FF obviously, them being the first 2 games. There is a thing called trial and error, in order to see what the public wants and likes. You need to try out different things. In my opinion they didn't really know where they were going with FF. It was just one last 'umpf' if you will, to get the company moving.

EDIT: I love Mario Bros, but it isn't fun anymore.. I figured out all the little secrets and shortcuts and all that fun stuff, and now the game is way too easy. Which makes it no fun anymore.

EDIT (yes again =]  ):When i said "arguably the greatest games of all time" I was speaking of Mario Bros and Space Invaders.

[xLostWingx]

I think this sums it up.  *coughignoreanythingthatdoesntlookrightcouch*

Yes it says couch.

[endlessdamage]

I am sorry to say we have gone off topic ]=

This was meant for XIV, yes?

[Jaitsu]

to be honest, i wasn't planning on playing XIV anyway sinse i don't like "serious" MMOs, but from everything bad about that you hear now, i would probably punch someone if they offered it to me

[Kudistos Megistos]

Squeenix's stock over the past two years:



Over the past five years:



They're in twouble!

[xLostWingx]

They should have made the FFVII remake many years ago, when people actually wanted it (by people I mean FFVII players).  Now its too late...well not for them to make money, but too late for them to make anything resembling a good game.  The rest of this post has been aborted due to imminent cognitive shutdown aka i'm too tied to finish this.