Author Topic: What Went Wrong? (Read 36554 times)

kicker · « **Reply #25 on:** 2011-12-29 01:23:48 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2011-12-29 00:57:57

Aside from missing a paragraph or 2, that was a great post, Kicker!

Mixed feelings need mixed paragraphs

Template · « **Reply #26 on:** 2011-12-29 03:15:10 »

FFXI died too--played for 7 years
they still making money off it but the game's watered down and uninteresting after they broke the limits

i could sell my account for a thousand dollars but id rather them never make another penny off it. If i did that theyd keep getting 13$ a month from someone to play my char

Prince Lex · « **Reply #27 on:** 2011-12-29 03:21:45 »

Although I don't see what difference it would have made, I'd have much preferred it if XI was named "Final Fantasy Online" and XIV "Final Fantasy Online 2". I'm not at all into MMO, and I'm a bit pissed off that there are "numbered entries" in the series that I'll never touch.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #28 on:** 2011-12-29 05:05:44 »

That I also agree with... it was simply a tactic to sell... and I didn't like it

Giullio · « **Reply #29 on:** 2011-12-29 15:53:25 »

Quote from: StickySock on 2011-12-29 01:04:35

FFX-2 was horrible. Pretending it never happened is the only way I can live with myself after playing it.

This right here...
X-2 I'm pretty sure that it was made for girls c'mon clothes changing? only 3 female main characters? this game is a nightmare...
I believe neither the girls liked it, they were probably expecting final fantasy not barbie summer camp or some other shit like that...

I don't know if any of you have ever heard of Breath Of Fire series, from Capcom... That RPG is one of my favorites until The 5th sequell for PS2, it sucked so bad I don't even want to talk about it there weren't dragons and the game is about dragons... and Ryu and the graphics, the battlesystem, the characters, the scenarios ... oh god... Still, the 3rd and the 4rth are simply masterpieces. I Highly recomend in case you're missing some true RPGs...

DLPB_ · « **Reply #30 on:** 2011-12-29 16:05:23 »

Breath of Fire 3 ranks in my top 10 games of all time

Didn't like 4 as much but was still very good... then came 5. No thanks. 'Course IGN, Gamespot and the rest of those clowns couldn't see further than graphics to appreciate the series anyway.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #31 on:** 2011-12-31 08:02:12 »

Quote from: Tuxedo

Woah, woah, woah. FFXIII wasn't the greatest game ever but it certainly wasn't the worst freaking game in existence like you're making it out to be. I thought it was a fun game to play, the characters were alright aside from Snow and the world was amazing. FFXIII's world is probably my favorite in the whole series, next to Spira, that's one of the reasons why I was so pissed that we couldn't backtrack and explore everything so thank goodness FFXIII-2 fixes that. The battle system was fun and I enjoyed playing the game and that's all that matters to me.

Again. When will you realise that I speak in the context of Final Fantasy. I have said practically 100 times that I know the game was "good" when compared to most games. I do not buy FF for "good". That is why FF13 is "crap as a FF game" and why I did not buy it. Final Fantasy used to be great, it used to be worth the dollar.

Whilst you enjoyed it, that does not make up for the numerous flaws, or excuse the sheer dumbing down of the genre. You mention the beautiful world, but that is just it, that is just graphics again.

FF13-2 will fix none of the underlining issues I have, and a tag line of "wow you can explore different paths" is not exactly wonderful.

I keep hearing this "FFXIII isn't the worst game" and "Well, I liked it"

These are not valid excuses and they do not address the core issues which have turned many long term fans off the series. Senix is a money grabber. As a Final Fantasy game, XIII was a brain dead, low IQ "game". And no offense but I thought the story and characters were written by a 5 year old.

Nightmarish · « **Reply #32 on:** 2011-12-31 08:34:09 »

Quote from: luksy on 2011-12-28 23:54:31

I'll agree with RE4 on some points, but for me it was an excellent game in its own right and it was a gamble for Capcom that paid off in the end, and a breath of fresh air in a series that desperately needed it. Change is not necessarily a bad thing, look at the latest Batman trilogy for example, I think very few people would say that it isn't Batman because there are no "SOCK!" & "BIFF!" screens during the fighting. Similarly, if you're a fan of camp 60s Batman, The Dark Knight doesn't retroactively ruin the older series for you.

Having said that, as you say it really doesn't feel like classic Resident Evil: the story is god awful, even by RE standards, it's far too linear, and I really don't remember feeling particularly scared. What it was though was entertaining, and while I'm not going to say that the absolute essence of gaming is to have "fun", I think it plays a pretty important role.

Don't tell me you don't miss the files with that background story (Itchy.. Tasty..), the camera angles that made it creepy, the music that brings the nostalgia. RE is now an arcade game just like prince of persia or hitman or wtv. All about shooting.

Gamers got dumber, that's why games are so easy today AND so linear. No one seems to want to explore a game, to role play. Now they want easy to get, like they get with food or even relationships. Momentary pleasure rather than a extensive experience.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #33 on:** 2011-12-31 20:25:46 »

Yeah another thing that has gone, is valid competition. Enix and Square used to have to fight each other for monopoly of the genre... (I am getting sick of seeing ellipses) now they ARE the genre. When you remove competition, you get a lazy "Could not care less" philosophy.

Lion · « **Reply #34 on:** 2011-12-31 23:25:35 »

ironically you can blame your beloved FFX for many of the shortcomings of the later final fantasys.

-Running in straight lines-CHECK
-Nowhere to explore-CHECK
-Nobuo leaving the company-Sort of Check (but you can't blame him for it)
-Interactive Movie-Check (I actually enjoyed it though)
-Girlier main characters until you got an actual girl in FF13-Check. No more badass Cloud, we have effeminate girly boy Tidus.
-Supplement exploration with random encounters so you get more game time-Check

DLPB_ · « **Reply #35 on:** 2012-01-01 00:13:03 »

Quote from: Lion on 2011-12-31 23:25:35

ironically you can blame your beloved FFX for many of the shortcomings of the later final fantasys.

Not really, as that misses the point entirely and is the same lie that was told to apologise for FFXIII. FFX was a step forward in MANY areas, although the lack of world map was a step back (even though the world map too had secrets). Let's run through that nonsense:

Quote

-Running in straight lines-CHECK

Yeah sure, but there were many branches and sometimes places off the normal route. There were also towns and wide open spaces. It was not too far different from any other FF if you forget the world map.

Quote

-Nowhere to explore-CHECK

Calm lands, Remiem temple, cave of stolen fayth, the main towns like Besaid (yeah towns, real towns), not to mention ships and other areas. The game starts in an open area. FFX was not perfect but it had a damn site more going for it and that is a FACT.

Quote

-Nobuo leaving the company-Sort of Check (but you can't blame him for it)

He wrote 1/3 of the FFX soundtrack, and the other composers (including the one who composed XIII) are competent. He wrote the main theme, and quite a number of the most memorable tunes. Why you have placed this here as a negative point is frankly beyond me. FFX was VERY well composed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSWWyCiX6E8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88470TlMxKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxJE6SSX-aw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xRCjjiTR7I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrYpOPLh3dc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHw2V0C-D-o&feature=related (and do notice that people in the comments are referencing a difficult minigame).

and on and on and on.

Quote

-Interactive Movie-Check (I actually enjoyed it though)

There were far less lengthy sequences than XIII and you know it. The DVD wouldn't let them do it even if they had wanted to. They also weren't in gauntlet checkpoints. Again you use a vague similarity to claim it is exactly the same, a pathetic tactic that many used in order to lie to people about XIII in their reviews.

Quote

-Girlier main characters until you got an actual girl in FF13-Check. No more badass Cloud, we have effeminate girly boy Tidus.

Unlike "lightning" and the others, he was on a journey of self enlightenment in a world he did not know. He had a personality and he was not "look I am emo caricature". If people disliked Tidus that is their choice, but he was a well written character. So were the other characters who had depth. Auron fulfilled the role of "cool", though why you believe characters have to be "bad ass" to be good, is again beyond me.

Quote

-Supplement exploration with random encounters so you get more game time-Check

How much of FFX did you actually play? There is tons to do, including finding and upgrading weapons by way of miniquests, a number of minigames, spin off areas, super bosses, cloister of trial puzzle game, the ability to control all characters in battle and summons, and customise them, blitzball, a full open desert and towns, the ability to GO BACK to these areas and do more quests... and a story not made for 5 year olds. Off the top of my head.

FFXIII is out of X's league, and again, that is an observable matter of fact. Instead of scraping the barrel, admit to yourself that FFXIII is a shallow imitation. It has had its guts ripped out, and only a carcass remains. The fact the carcass is still slightly recognisable, does not make it alive, it makes it a carcass.

It was not X that doomed the series, it was the fans reactions to the cash in X-2, the spin offs of FFVII and the popularity of XII. Those were the reasons. The fact that they could get away with ripping out control of all characters, get away with not having towns and proper NPC, the fact they could get away with not having true minigames, or numerous sidequests away from battle.

They could get away with it.

Bosola · « **Reply #36 on:** 2012-01-01 01:00:55 »

I liked X.

X streamlined the element and status systems, and made individual characters feel genuinely different (unlike the interchangeable fighters of VII and VIII). It had a well developed battle system (with the ability to coordinate attacks a genuine boon in more difficult fights) and some massive sidequests. Its plot was coherent and its lore well-developed. Yes, many sections were quite linear, but that's always been the case in FF games, and at least dungeons never felt artificially padded (paging Mr. FFXII...). X was far better balanced than most of its peers - yes, FFX becomes rather broken in the endgame, but at least it demanded more than the 'spam attack and cast Cure-All' that characterized other episodes in the series.

I never really played X-II, though I didn't like what I saw. What really disappointed me was FFXII. Repetitive levels, arbitrary grinding, a poor abilities mechanic (though I'm told the Zodiac edition fixes this) and a mostly mediocre score (only the boss theme and Battle on the Big Bridge stand out, and the latter doesn't count as it's taken from FFV anyway). Oh, and that fiasco with the Zodiac Spear - a cynical, calculated gambit to force players into shelling out for official guides.

Fuck Final Fantasy XII.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #37 on:** 2012-01-01 01:06:41 »

Ah, glad to see you are another who sussed that the special weapons in XII were just a cynical money spinner. That is precisely what they did... actually a lot of XII's extra stuff is nigh impossible without a guide. I boxed it and sold it long before.

Covarr · « **Reply #38 on:** 2012-01-01 02:36:31 »

Quote from: Bosola on 2012-01-01 01:00:55

I never really played X-II, though I didn't like what I saw.

If you're the sort that doesn't really care about the story at all, and just wants a game with good mechanics, I couldn't recommend X-2 any higher. It's got (IMO) the best combat in the series, lots of open world to explore... Pretty much everything that X did even almost wrong, X-2 did very right.

It's too bad it's got such an abysmal disaster of a story. Really, that was the only place the game went wrong (and the music, but that was a side effect of the story). Unfortunately, it went SO wrong there, that it manages to bring down the rest of the game.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #39 on:** 2012-01-01 02:46:09 »

Yeah I've been told this a few times... sadly I never got far enough to appreciate the game. The story/characters/dialogue were that bad. A waste of potential.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #40 on:** 2012-01-02 06:53:13 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUOOgNzOv4

BIGGERER IS BETTERER (In fanboy and Senix world). That music and logo are the perfect summing up of Final Fantasy these days.

ivi0nk3y · « **Reply #41 on:** 2012-01-02 13:42:07 »

Couldn't agree more with your post DLPB but the same corporate mentality has effected more than just video games. It's ridiculous but if I speak to a teenager these days, I feel sorry for the fact that they don't seem to know anything that made growing up great for my generation. Classic games can be found as Java applet remakes which are played to pass the time, offering a slight peak into greatness. Movies are mostly recycled, uncreative drivel which feed off the originals that made them great like some parasite and mostly anything new is just crap. Music either has some whiny punk ass singing in an attempt to sound like they have the X-factor, or it has a hard B-line, or both to reel in the cash. Most TV shows show us nothing with feeling or thought but just soulless celebrities puppeted around a screen, in the lame attempt to hook onto viewers.

Granted there are a few good things out there but it's almost like its bait, to keep us interested in a waning enterprise.

It seems, for whatever reason, these guys are trying to make millions and are playing every cheap hand (feeding off their previous successes), to do so.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #42 on:** 2012-01-02 19:56:26 »

That is true, it is a social breakdown. But don't worry, change always happens.

Bosola · « **Reply #43 on:** 2012-01-02 20:21:42 »

No it isn't. Stop being daft.

Culture in the 1970s, 80s and 90s was no less derivative or unengaging than today's. Comparing today's offerings with what we remember of yesteryear means we apply a selection bias, because we do not remember mediocre titles and artists from the past. Every age has always pointed to a lost, golden past, and today's nostalgists are no less wrong now than their predecessors were before.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #44 on:** 2012-01-02 20:56:59 »

I'd say today's society is dumbed down and TV spoon fed. I definitely think social issues are the reason for it. People have less respect, certainly in my country, and TV, education has been dumbed down to sucha degree that it is no wonder the masses are mindless.

Lion · « **Reply #45 on:** 2012-01-02 21:29:12 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

Not really, as that misses the point entirely and is the same lie that was told to apologise for FFXIII. FFX was a step forward in MANY areas, although the lack of world map was a step back (even though the world map too had secrets). Let's run through that nonsense:

I haven't touched FFXIII at all. Heard terrible reviews, apparently it's supposed to have even less exploration than FFX, was too scared to touch it.

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

Yeah sure, but there were many branches and sometimes places off the normal route. There were also towns and wide open spaces. It was not too far different from any other FF if you forget the world map.

Calm lands, Remiem temple, cave of stolen fayth, the main towns like Besaid (yeah towns, real towns), not to mention ships and other areas. The game starts in an open area. FFX was not perfect but it had a damn site more going for it and that is a FACT.

Oh man, definitely not. If you entered a dungeon in FF7 there was always multiple paths to walk. Of course they all led to the same place, but at least it was sort of fun navigating the map and doing parkour. Climbing up to Shinra HQ for example i remember jumping on all these random metal things. Or perhaps in FF7 where there are multiple doors, and multiple paths that make a dungeon explorable. A dungeon in FFX, we'll say the cavern of stolen fayth, was so dumbed down. It's a straight line with occasional dead ends branching off of it. Calm lands? Besaid? Come one there was nothing to explore there. Calm lands, bam we plopped down a huge circle of grass with 2 exits. Calm lands 2 was a bit better I guess. Besaid was literally a straight line with houses on the side and the back exit was the temple. Compare that to FF8's balamb garden or balamb itself.

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

He wrote 1/3 of the FFX soundtrack, and the other composers (including the one who composed XIII) are competent. He wrote the main theme, and quite a number of the most memorable tunes. Why you have placed this here as a negative point is frankly beyond me. FFX was VERY well composed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSWWyCiX6E8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88470TlMxKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxJE6SSX-aw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xRCjjiTR7I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrYpOPLh3dc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHw2V0C-D-o&feature=related (and do notice that people in the comments are referencing a difficult minigame).

and on and on and on.

I thoroughly enjoyed Nobuos contributions in FFX and will be one of the first to tell you that it is one of his better works. Granted early FF's had rather poor sound quality but whatever. My actual point was that it was signifying FF going downhill. Nobuo leaving didnt affect FFX as badly as it did FFXII/FFX-2/etc/etc.

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

There were far less lengthy sequences than XIII and you know it. The DVD wouldn't let them do it even if they had wanted to. They also weren't in gauntlet checkpoints. Again you use a vague similarity to claim it is exactly the same, a pathetic tactic that many used in order to lie to people about XIII in their reviews.

Again I have not played FFXIII. If you talked to me about FFXII i would be a bit better off. I enjoyed FFX's story. Just that it's guilty of starting a trend because it worked successfully.

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

Unlike "lightning" and the others, he was on a journey of self enlightenment in a world he did not know. He had a personality and he was not "look I am emo caricature". If people disliked Tidus that is their choice, but he was a well written character. So were the other characters who had depth. Auron fulfilled the role of "cool", though why you believe characters have to be "bad ass" to be good, is again beyond me.

Well I disliked Tidus as a main character. And we're not talking about his terrible voice acting either. And really the main character is probably the one who makes or breaks a game/story. Nobody gives a fuck about your Vincent Valentines or Quistis Trepes. I thought Tidus was a bit of a tool. I hated how he looked (bro, check out my bling, bro, i might as well not be wearing a shirt, and that haircut..... ughhh). And his fake confidence annoyed me all the time.

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

How much of FFX did you actually play? There is tons to do, including finding and upgrading weapons by way of miniquests, a number of minigames, spin off areas, super bosses, cloister of trial puzzle game, the ability to control all characters in battle and summons, and customise them, blitzball, a full open desert and towns, the ability to GO BACK to these areas and do more quests... and a story not made for 5 year olds. Off the top of my head.

Well I finished the game. Did not finish all the side quests. Didn't kill the superbosses. FFX probably had a better late-late game than earlier FF's just because they recoloured a lot of summons and changed some numbers around. It does beat earlier FF's in this regard. Of course there are sidequests. Every Final Fantasy has sidequests and minigames. There just wasn't as much as earlier versions. Just take the Jecht spheres for example. Compare it to FF8's Laguna sequence. Instead of playing as Laguna and team, you get to watch Jecht walk back and forth and text appears on the screen.

Story I enjoyed. Other games made for 5 year olds? IDK. FF7 has one of the most "you find out something new everytime you play it" type stories i've ever seen. On the other hand i sort of agree. I hated how every game I played, I had to save the world. How boring. How about killing sephiroth for pure revenge's sake. Saving the world, just doesn't feel awesome like you would think saving the world does. Story flaws exist in all FF's so I won't really say much about that. (Like wtf happened to Shinra....)

Quote from: DLPB on 2012-01-01 00:13:03

FFXIII is out of X's league, and again, that is an observable matter of fact. Instead of scraping the barrel, admit to yourself that FFXIII is a shallow imitation. It has had its guts ripped out, and only a carcass remains. The fact the carcass is still slightly recognisable, does not make it alive, it makes it a carcass.

It was not X that doomed the series, it was the fans reactions to the cash in X-2, the spin offs of FFVII and the popularity of XII. Those were the reasons. The fact that they could get away with ripping out control of all characters, get away with not having towns and proper NPC, the fact they could get away with not having true minigames, or numerous sidequests away from battle.

They could get away with it.

Lol, FFX was successful. So they tried to copy its formula. It somewhat succeeded in later games. They assumed it was because of all the new stuff. It worked in FFX but FFX did start the trend.

Giullio · « **Reply #46 on:** 2012-01-02 23:25:49 »

Oh and one more thing, I hadn't read all of this topic but I think nobody mentioned what they did with the summons, In X the summoning system was cool, I liked it, it was different but I liked it, but in XII what the fuck just happened here? they are useless decorative things only, and c'mon a lot of those summons I didn't even known from previous games... perhaps some.

In XIII I saw some reviews and stuff, It seems that Shiva is a bike and Ifrit is a car, Odin a horse... Is that right? Where are those mighty beasts that came with overwhelming power and stroke all the screen with fantastic cutscenes?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #47 on:** 2012-01-03 01:06:02 »

I did do a huge XII review once, and believe me the pathetic summons were mentioned. An example of where X got it right (gave you control of them) and XII went backwards (Took control away from you and made them near useless).

ultima espio · « **Reply #48 on:** 2012-01-03 01:24:00 »

Ifrit isn't in 13, that's Brynhildr.

xLostWingx · « **Reply #49 on:** 2012-01-03 01:28:24 »

Something should be said about the fact that so many can gather around the idea that FFX was a major component of Square's initial decline. Why isn't everyone saying that VIII or IX was the turning point? Well, because they were still good and they were made before the 'wrongness'. FFX however, did have many faults that weren't in previous FF installments AND it was the last FF to be made before the wrongness began. FFX itself had many good qualities, no one has tried to deny that here. But it is not as if Square lept off a cliff, instead they drove down a fairly steep hill. So no...FFX was not Square's greatest failure, nor was it a culmination of the everything that was wrong with Squaresoft, but FFX was the seed from which the decline grew from. That seed attracted a new and different clientele, and with them came lots of money. So obviously Square chose to expand on FFX's "innovations" - Which is What Went Wrong.

Most of the people that hate VII, hate it because it was a major change in the way Square made their FFs. Those people have every right to point the finger at VII. Of course, that doesn't make it a bad game, but you can't deny that VII was a major turning point in Square's history. FFX was a good game, but it changed FF in a very real way. Interstingly, this adds support to your Technology explanation as VII was first FF on PSX and X was the first on PS2, just as XIII (another major turning point, that most of us say is for the worse) was the first FF on PS3. C'mon, it might hurt to say it, but FFX definetely had a lot to do with our current opinion of Square.

Author Topic: What Went Wrong? (Read 36554 times)

ivi0nk3y