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Title: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-01-21 15:31:38
Why does FF15 look like a Third-person shooter? I mean did they forget that this franchise was originally an RPG?
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-01-21 15:38:09
I dunno, if anything it looks like a God of War clone. The combat, at least from what I've seen in trailers, is predominantly melee-based. I think they were aiming for an action RPG, a faster yet more strategic/less buttonmashey variant on what Kingdom Hearts did.

I can forgive the experimentation as long as they keep some key RPG elements intact. A thorough weapons/armor equip system, spells, items, and a lot of visible numbers.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-01-21 15:43:52
Why does FF15 look like a Third-person shooter? I mean did they forget that this franchise was originally an RPG?

No, they just realized that they can get away with easier design aimed at the masses. 
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=12677.0

Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-01-21 16:13:48
No, they just realized that they can get away with easier design aimed at the masses. 
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=12677.0

Hmm I see.

The one thing I have to disagree with is the FFX-2 bashing.

I saw it as being laid back and fun, and I gotta say I enjoyed it pretty much (mainly the combat, Eject with Alchemist ftw).

The one bit that I didnt like about it was the Brother, and overall stupidity of the gullwings crew,  there was no guarantee they wont go full retard very few minutes and I cringed times.

Still I liked it. It has blitzball (albeit not the same as in x), customization (I cant remember seing this many classes in rpg for a long time) great combat system, story is solid, (except for few points)

It also has good lenght, lots of sidequests and relatively decent ammount of freedom, and a few story points are really "holy shit" phrase worthy, like den of woe.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-01-21 20:31:02
This game receives WAY too much hate from people assuming it is related to FF13 and therefore suffers from the same mistakes. Everything I've seen from this game seems to be envisioned in an exact opposite manner from 13. We can all agree (most of us anyway) that 13 was at least a little disappointing. You don't, however, have to like 13 in order to be interested in 15.

Quick note: the design argument does not hold because FF15 is said to have a world map, open and expansive environments, airships, and automobiles so obviously this game doesn't have the same linear tropes that plagued 13. Will it be as open as say FF1-9? Who knows, but it's ridiculous to count it out since most of what we seen shows large areas and ridable vehicles.

As for the combat...

FF15 is obviously going for a KH style combat system and it's not a horrible idea in of itself. Battles, as weird as it may sound, don't need to be turned based to be strategic. It's a horrible misconception that the only games that can be strategic need to have a combat system that resembles a board game.

What's my point?
I love turned based games. I have enjoyed every final fantasy 1-13 (with 4,6,7,9, and 10 being obviously much better than the rest), but to dismiss something for innovating is ridiculous. There is nearly as much strategy in action based games as there is in turn based games, and when combat is in realtime it gives pressure (another layer of strategy) and excitement. That's why the active time battle system was introduced in the first place. If the game turns out to be a mindless button masher, than okay, critique it for involving no strategy and being a poor representation of action-rpgs. But I think that saying every FF needs to be turn based is ignorant and not very helpful. Dark Souls and Demon Souls are third person action-rpgs that require a lot of strategy and patience, and your decisions are under pressure. So don't bash FF15 for trying something different, bash them for not doing it well if that ends up being the case.

Edit: The reason it looks like third person shooter is because you must have watched a trailer showing the ability to switch between characters in battle (something missing from ff13 and highly requested in KH games when Cloud or another fan favorite joins your party). It would be like being able to swap between controlling Vincent or Barret (people with guns) and Cloud or Tifa (people who use melee attacks) in real time.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-01-21 20:54:13
FF15 is obviously going for a KH style combat system and it's not a horrible idea in of itself. Battles, as weird as it may sound, don't need to be turned based to be strategic. It's a horrible misconception that the only games that can be strategic need to have a combat system that resembles a board game.
The thing is, if it's that different, it really shouldn't be called Final Fantasy. It can be the best damn action RPG in the world, but the Final Fantasy name implies that it's turn-based. That's what happens when you create a tradition by keeping the same core mechanics intact for ten games in a row. If you're gonna break from that, don't give it a number. XI through XV have all annoyed me in this respect.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-01-21 21:29:43
The thing is, if it's that different, it really shouldn't be called Final Fantasy. It can be the best damn action RPG in the world, but the Final Fantasy name implies that it's turn-based. That's what happens when you create a tradition by keeping the same core mechanics intact for ten games in a row. If you're gonna break from that, don't give it a number. XI through XV have all annoyed me in this respect.

That ship sailed a long time ago, as you've noted. But this game was indeed intended initially not to be a numbered entry, and I thought the smart move was to name it FF Versus, to remove the connection from 13 (which it only has in names of the mythos) and give it the distinction from the main series. They decided to make it a numbered entry though, for whatever reasons they saw fit (probably for more money and less time to develop a new game). However, none of this is actually determines that the game is crap, only that Square Enix seems to have no guidelines to distinguish which games should be considered flagship titles.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Mcindus on 2014-01-22 20:14:11
The thing is, if it's that different, it really shouldn't be called Final Fantasy. It can be the best damn action RPG in the world, but the Final Fantasy name implies that it's turn-based. That's what happens when you create a tradition by keeping the same core mechanics intact for ten games in a row. If you're gonna break from that, don't give it a number. XI through XV have all annoyed me in this respect.

I agree with Covarr.  I think there should be a new way to implement a 'turn-based' system for the FF series, and SquareEnix just hasn't delivered that to us.  I really do believe that Squaresoft would have.  This game should have been a "Seiken Densetsu" game - especially since "Dawn of Mana" was such a horrible travesty (plot-wise, translation-wise, graphics-wise, and gameplay-wise).  I would have loved for the Mana series to have this kind of modern gameplay reboot... but for a Final Fantasy it falls flat.

What I find funny is that the actual SNES "Mana" series action system almost felt turn-based without being turn based.  I think even going to that system would feel more "Final Fantasy" over what they've done.
That's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-01-22 20:21:26
I agree with Covarr.  I think there should be a new way to implement a 'turn-based' system for the FF series, and SquareEnix just hasn't delivered that to us.  I really do believe that Squaresoft would have.  This game should have been a "Seiken Densetsu" game - especially since "Dawn of Mana" was such a horrible travesty (plot-wise, translation-wise, graphics-wise, and gameplay-wise).  I would have loved for the Mana series to have this kind of modern gameplay reboot... but for a Final Fantasy it falls flat.

What I find funny is that the actual SNES "Mana" series action system almost felt turn-based without being turn based.  I think even going to that system would feel more "Final Fantasy" over what they've done.
That's my 2 cents.

Tbh The way I see it, they just want to attract the TPS crowd, because they lost half of their playerbase by their stupid decisions. They truly have no fucking dignity.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-01-22 21:02:48
Tbh The way I see it, they just want to attract the TPS crowd, because they lost half of their playerbase by their stupid decisions. They truly have no fucking dignity.

Course not.. now they are a pure out and out business.  Whereas before they at least had some passion and care.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-01-23 11:12:32
This game receives WAY too much hate from people assuming it is related to FF13 and therefore suffers from the same mistakes. Everything I've seen from this game seems to be envisioned in an exact opposite manner from 13. We can all agree (most of us anyway) that 13 was at least a little disappointing. You don't, however, have to like 13 in order to be interested in 15.

Quick note: the design argument does not hold because FF15 is said to have a world map, open and expansive environments, airships, and automobiles so obviously this game doesn't have the same linear tropes that plagued 13. Will it be as open as say FF1-9? Who knows, but it's ridiculous to count it out since most of what we seen shows large areas and ridable vehicles.

As for the combat...

FF15 is obviously going for a KH style combat system and it's not a horrible idea in of itself. Battles, as weird as it may sound, don't need to be turned based to be strategic. It's a horrible misconception that the only games that can be strategic need to have a combat system that resembles a board game.

What's my point?
I love turned based games. I have enjoyed every final fantasy 1-13 (with 4,6,7,9, and 10 being obviously much better than the rest), but to dismiss something for innovating is ridiculous. There is nearly as much strategy in action based games as there is in turn based games, and when combat is in realtime it gives pressure (another layer of strategy) and excitement. That's why the active time battle system was introduced in the first place. If the game turns out to be a mindless button masher, than okay, critique it for involving no strategy and being a poor representation of action-rpgs. But I think that saying every FF needs to be turn based is ignorant and not very helpful. Dark Souls and Demon Souls are third person action-rpgs that require a lot of strategy and patience, and your decisions are under pressure. So don't bash FF15 for trying something different, bash them for not doing it well if that ends up being the case.

Edit: The reason it looks like third person shooter is because you must have watched a trailer showing the ability to switch between characters in battle (something missing from ff13 and highly requested in KH games when Cloud or another fan favorite joins your party). It would be like being able to swap between controlling Vincent or Barret (people with guns) and Cloud or Tifa (people who use melee attacks) in real time.

Imo turn based combat is the staple of final fantasy series (excluding spin offs ofc).

When you take it away, you practically got dmc with final fantasy slapped on the cd case. If they want to make an action rpg/TPS, that is fine with me, but for christ sake at least dont call it final fantasy (or at least let it be a spin off instead).

Honestly, if you shown me the trailer on FF15 without me knowing it is final fantasy game, I would ask what have they done with Dante´s hair again, and whats with the universe and setting.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-01-23 19:55:42
This game was originally named FFVersus13, to be a "spinoff" title of the main series, and was directed by the director of the KH franchise (and by the same teams who worked on them) hence the different combat system. All they did was take the name, and switch it to FF15. There is no conspiracy; there is no "trying to gain the attention of the TPS and action game crowd".

Honestly, you guys are just feeding off the negativity that Square Enix has gained in its fan base with the release of FF13 and making up ideas of how Square Enix must be so evil. They took a spinoff title, made it a flagship entry, and that's it. Maybe they should have left the spinoff title to appease you guys, but it is the same game (that looks more promising every time I see it).

The fan reaction when it was FFVS13: "Wow, that game looks unique and kind of interesting! I'm excited to see more!"

The fan reaction after it became FF15: "Heresy! Burn Square Enix to the ground for changing its name!"
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-01-23 20:04:27
No, I don't agree with that at all.  We are basing negativity on what we can see.  The fact is FF15 is not an RPG by the standards set out for an RPG (nor was ff13).  If the board game Monopoly suddenly changed into Dungeons and Dragons, I am guessing people would take issue at it.  The standard and care at Senix these days is appalling and has been for a while.  Changing names is a symptom of piss poor management.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-01-23 20:14:44
There is no "trying to gain the attention of the TPS and action game crowd".

I just hope that you are right and that I didnt just witness how my favourite series of turn based RPGs turned into action-adventure/hack and slash crap.

Quote
Honestly, you guys are just feeding off the negativity that Square Enix has gained in its fan base with the release of FF13 and making up ideas of how Square Enix must be so evil. They took a spinoff title, made it a flagship entry, and that's it. Maybe they should have left the spinoff title to appease you guys, but it is the same game (that looks more promising every time I see it).

They made it crystal clear they dont give a flying f*ck about their playerbase, in more ways than one.

Quote
The fan reaction when it was FFVS13: "Wow, that game looks unique and kind of interesting! I'm excited to see more!"

The fan reaction after it became FF15: "Heresy! Burn Square Enix to the ground for changing its name!"

Because they made the game one of main releases. The moment it was called Final Fantasy 15 it stopped being considered spin off.

It is practically the same as it was with Resident evil 4. Not saying it was a bad game (it was awesome) but the moment they made it TPS it stopped being Resident evil.





Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-01-23 20:40:19
@Nightmare799: You're right, it's exactly like the switch from RE3 to RE4, but RE4 wasn't bad now was it? Hopefully square enix won't abandon the old turn based style in the same way Capcom abandoned the horror genre.

@DLPB: The RE4 analogy fits much closer to what is happening here, but for the most part I agree with you. They have done nothing but piss fans off and clearly have poor management skills.

My point is that this game shouldn't be totally bashed for the ignorance of the executives. I too hope they don't abandon turn based RPGs for the future, but they haven't made one since ffx, and this game looks by and far the best thing to come out of square enix since ffx.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2014-01-23 22:09:36
@Nightmare799: You're right, it's exactly like the switch from RE3 to RE4, but RE4 wasn't bad now was it? Hopefully square enix won't abandon the old turn based style in the same way Capcom abandoned the horror genre.

Square did put out Bravely Default(already in JP in 2012 and EU last year, coming Feb 7th for the US) which is basically a Job/Class and kinda turn based based Final Fantasy game with a different name.

As for Capcom, they're in a bit of bother financially just now, having just spent around $40 Million to make some games for the mobile market(you know, since their previous efforts there did well... mobile version of RE4 was nasty) out of something like $130M of usable money, they're even bundleing up the first 3 Dead Rising titles(1,2 and Off the Record) into a collection for the 360 to make a quick buck.

Capcom would do well to work on a few HD remasters if they want to put at least a little bit of effort in, but the main ones being asked for by pretty much everyone ever either wouldn't make it past the Wii-U or get the go ahead from SNK Playmore, the games in question being RE Remake/Rebirth, RE Zero and Capcom vs SNK 2 which did hit the PSN store recently but that's a derped emulated version from the PS2 and doesn't really count, may have been done to gauge interest in a potential "HD" release though.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-01-24 00:54:22
Make more Marvel versus Capcom's so I can hear more of  Yipes' tourney announcing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZUMjoxfZA)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Kaldarasha on 2014-01-24 03:51:26
If I see it right, Bravely Default was made by the same team, which made Final Fantasy Four Heroes of Light (they made also the remakes of III and IV, if I'm correct with that). The team is good because they follow a reasonable line in style and gamplay. I hope SE let them make more games.

However, everyone has said to Sqaurenix "Please no, don't go this way!" and they have said "Shut up! We know what you want."
And now SquareEnix asking themselves "What the hell is wrong with our customers?"
The main problem from which they suffer now is, that they have abused the name Final Fantasy 'YZ' to sell their games (or experiments). Nobody would had had a problem back then, if they had announced FF XI as FF Online (and FF XIV as FF Online II). But no, they wanted to sell it also to people, who aren't actually interested in online gaming, because these people have started to create a FF collection. The next stupid step was to make a successor to a FF game: FF X-2 (or Final Freakshow X-2). Except of the nice battle system everything was nothing more as a bad joke. Then FF XII had finally split the fanbase, while I think the battle system is the f*cking best in it's genre, many people didn't like the westernization of the gameplay. DQ8 (the best PS2 RPG) has give me some hope, that SE has one good franchise in the JRPG genre at last, but with DQ9 they have teach me a better lesson - multiplayer instead of a story with some charming and lovely characters. Why didn't they implement the multiplayer in FFXIII? The battle system would be great for it. I honestly like the different versions of the battle system, but my problem is that the way of the storytelling has decreased with every FF after IX.
Square Enix is arrogant, they always were. But now, on a time where they aren't the only big company, which makes big RPGs, these arrogance breaking them their neck and they struggle and don't know what to do. Instead of hearing to thier fans, they go their way with half opened ears and looking for the next big moneymaker. I don't know how often I have bought the same product from them, because they have made a small change (I currently have two versions of Deus EX Human Revolution in my Steam library, off course I had to pay again for the bug fixed version).
They still making great games, but the time were the name Square stands for 'High Quality Gaming' is gone. How can I love a game, if the Devs didn't make it with love?
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-01-24 03:55:24
There is the other thing...

The merger means there is less competition.  The 2 major companies formed to create Square Enix.  Anytime there is less competition, and especially when one company has a monopoly, there is an issue. Add in the gullible fanbase, and the fact FF is a brand, and it is little wonder they aren't trying too hard.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2014-01-24 16:58:31
Make more Marvel versus Capcom's so I can hear more of  Yipes' tourney announcing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZUMjoxfZA)


Maybe, maybe if you start blowing the Disney execs for the rest of eternity, Capcom ain't got the rights no mo'.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Cazador on 2014-01-24 17:45:53
I'm pretty pumped for 15. Let's be honest..it's not like 13 had any strategy in its battle system anyway. Hit Auto Battle....Win Game... Plus it looks like it might not be linear as hell like 13 was..I'll give it a shot, it'll be the last one I give a chance to if it sucks though.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-01-24 18:55:35
I'm pretty pumped for 15. Let's be honest..it's not like 13 had any strategy in its battle system anyway. Hit Auto Battle....Win Game... Plus it looks like it might not be linear as hell like 13 was..I'll give it a shot, it'll be the last one I give a chance to if it sucks though.
TWEWY alone (just played it recently) is enough to make me excited for this game.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-01-24 22:17:54
Top 10 Worst Final Fantasy Games (http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/jn4tkj/gt-countdown-top-10-worst-final-fantasy-games)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-01-25 20:40:21
Dammit, Disney. What about the Mango Sentinel? :'(
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: KaidenJames on 2014-01-26 06:32:53
There is a demo for Bravely Default right now on the 3DS. I've played it, and very much liked what i've experienced thus far. I think i'll pick it up when it comes out.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2014-01-27 23:11:07
Course not.. now they are a pure out and out business.  Whereas before they at least had some passion and care.

Passion and care went out the door with Sakaguchi.  There's a good reason X was the last game in the series I bought around the release date, and I flat-out refused to touch XIII or anything related to it, considering SE's blatant trolling to the FF7 fanbase (which has clearly failed).
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-01-27 23:32:11
Passion and care went out the door with Sakaguchi.  There's a good reason X was the last game in the series I bought around the release date, and I flat-out refused to touch XIII or anything related to it, considering SE's blatant trolling to the FF7 fanbase (which has clearly failed).
That's not entirely fair. Tetsuya Nomura is plenty passionate, just not very good at what he does (and spread too thin these days, doing character design for virtually everything and directing and writing all the KH games AND FFXIV).
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: luksy on 2014-01-29 06:10:30
http://www.edge-online.com/features/final-fantasys-overseer-yoshinori-kitase-on-defining-the-japanese-rpg/

Quote
Kitase has been at the frontline of industry change. “In the beginning, the atmosphere was one of a small university arts or technology club. Today, it’s a market with Hollywood-scale productions. When I first joined Square, the view of games from wider society was one of a niche subculture; it was underground and impenetrable.”

Kitase’s interest in making games more approachable stems from what he saw at this time. “My father would complain that he had no idea what was going on when I played RPGs at home after school,” he says. “This made me want to make games something that those watching the screen next to the player could also find interesting. That’s one of the reasons I’ve pushed 3D CG graphics and voice acting.

None of the bolded sections are necessarily bad things, but I find the bit about the change in atmosphere pretty interesting. Perhaps devs who don't forget their roots are the ones making the better content, it's certainly possible to make a big-budget Hollywood style game that doesn't have to resort to cheap tactics and generic writing to widen its appeal.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-02-03 03:23:20
The Final Verdict - FFXV Should Stay Versus XIII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqng6HwVgPk)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Travis on 2014-02-03 19:26:25
It looks similar to Kingdom Hearts... which is fine, those games are great gameplay wise.

What should you be mad about? Well, maybe the fact that this game might be 9+ years in development by the time it's finished (and they said an FF7 remake would take to long, fuck these asshats) and we still don't have a release date...
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-02-17 09:39:35
Passion and care went out the door with Sakaguchi.  There's a good reason X was the last game in the series I bought around the release date...

The last FF Sakaguchi really had any major influence over was 9, credited as producer and scenario. He was "only" executive producer on 8, 10 and 11.
Title: Square Enix keen to bring more Final Fantasy games to PC in future
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-02-19 13:20:16
http://www.vg247.com/2014/02/19/square-enix-keen-to-bring-more-final-fantasy-games-to-pc-in-future/
Title: Re: Square Enix keen to bring more Final Fantasy games to PC in future
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-02-23 10:51:47
http://www.vg247.com/2014/02/19/square-enix-keen-to-bring-more-final-fantasy-games-to-pc-in-future/

Too little too late, they should have thought of that when they released 9, 10 and 10-2 as ps2 (and later ps3) only games.

Not a lot people are interested in their future releases.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-02-23 11:21:00
Well I need to report that I get over 100 post updates on steam every day about VIII and XIV...
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: vivinox on 2014-02-27 13:11:24
i just hope they won't make it like a hackandslash button masher that is kingdom heart, like kill all the mobs here and the door will open than you will kill yet again all the mobs here. they should have added the turn based battle system not this crap, i am still going to play it but again so disappointed in the battle
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-02-27 16:01:23
Kingdom Hearts is great, especially compared to recent FF's.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-02-27 16:23:09
The Kingdom Hearts series got off to a poor start where combat is concerned. The first game has basically no depth to the battles; I'll agree with vivinox, it's a button-masher to the end. The second game slightly improved on it by adding quick-time events to the mix, but that wasn't enough. It wasn't until Birth By Sleep that they actually got it right, IMO. Blocking and parrying make the battles actually require reflexes, and the command deck and focus systems make them interesting.

Then again, I even preferred Chain of Memories to anything else pre-BbS. It actually required you to pay attention to what you were doing, a concept that most players seem to have struggled with. It was a bit clunky, but still a good deal deeper than just spamming attacks against regular enemires or whatever magic a boss is weak to.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-02-27 16:32:41
Fair enough, but I'd still say KH is 5000x better than XIII.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2014-03-03 06:09:59
The last FF Sakaguchi really had any major influence over was 9, credited as producer and scenario. He was "only" executive producer on 8, 10 and 11.

You made my point for me.  8 is an absolutely awful game and 10 is the game that made me give up on the whole series ever getting better.  9 was the last Final Fantasy I truly enjoyed.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-03-03 23:29:55
X is very good and widely regarded as so.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-03-04 00:52:06
FFX is very good in some ways, but has a lot of the roots of what would eventually be hated about later entries in the franchise. Bad voice acting, incomprehensible character motivations (mostly Seymour), and lack of a proper overworld really stand out. I enjoyed the game, but it was flawed in ways that would only stand out more with subsequent entries.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-03-04 18:39:00
True, but that's like saying Goldeneye was bad because it popularized the FPS genre.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-03-04 20:10:19
I'm saying it's imperfect for reasons that would be exacerbated in later entries. It's like saying Call of Duty 4 is bad because it popularized the things about the FPS genre that aren't actually good.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-03-04 20:30:04
I thought X was a brilliant game and it at least added some things, if it took others away, like controlling Aeons.  It was packed with stuff to do, and I cared about the characters and story.  After that, it all went wrong imho.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2014-03-04 20:37:39
I get what Covarr is saying. All FF games have aspects I enjoy, but at the same time introduced poorer qualities which get exacerbated from there forward. I completely agree with his points on FFX; voice acting and linearity are the ones that strike me as poorly done game elements that have continued in the series and are embodied as "core" elements now. FFXIII very much improved on the voice acting, but then stifled its potential storytelling impacts with way too much CGI eye candy.

1 step forward, 2 steps back is how I view it.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: genesis063 on 2014-03-04 20:50:22
I believe X was far from Linear.  Yeah you were restricted in the beginning but when you got the air ship you can still do stuff leading up to the final battle.  Linear games give you no such freedom.  Not trying to say you have no idea what you are talking about but 10 had very little restrictions if at all.  I'm not trying to say ten is perfect or what not but it introduced me to the series so I feel I have to come to its defense a little.  I think ten gets to much crap then it deserves.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-03-04 21:07:18
I still hate Tidus as a character...
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2014-03-04 21:20:11
I believe X was far from Linear.  Yeah you were restricted in the beginning but when you got the air ship you can still do stuff leading up to the final battle.  Linear games give you no such freedom.  Not trying to say you have no idea what you are talking about but 10 had very little restrictions if at all.  I'm not trying to say ten is perfect or what not but it introduced me to the series so I feel I have to come to its defense a little.  I think ten gets to much crap then it deserves.

If it's what introduced you to the series, than your opinion is fair enough. I was introduced with IV (NA FFII for SNES), although I never was big into the series until VII. The huge difference for me between FF games prior to X and X+ is the lack of a world map. X was somewhat of a hybrid of this, given that you could choose marked places on a static map and jump between the different levels. The world maps prior to X allowed interaction, making it a level in itself. You could move characters freely and it always had enemy and boss encounters to deal with. In many cases, doing something on the world map required progression in the game or it contained some of the best well hidden secrets.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Rundas on 2014-03-05 01:19:58
*NA FFIII for SNES*
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: genesis063 on 2014-03-05 01:47:33
If it's what introduced you to the series, than your opinion is fair enough. I was introduced with IV (NA FFII for SNES), although I never was big into the series until VII. The huge difference for me between FF games prior to X and X+ is the lack of a world map. X was somewhat of a hybrid of this, given that you could choose marked places on a static map and jump between the different levels. The world maps prior to X allowed interaction, making it a level in itself. You could move characters freely and it always had enemy and boss encounters to deal with. In many cases, doing something on the world map required progression in the game or it contained some of the best well hidden secrets.
I see what you mean now yeah that was a big difference but one that wasn't a big issue even looking back on it now.  Tidus could use some work yeah but atleast he is a little better then Cloud emotion and confidence wise.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-03-05 17:51:46
FFX was a very linear game in the sense that the story shuttled you along from area to area, without leaving a huge amount to explore. The reason why it wasn't a problem is because there are still a lot of extras to do in the games, and secrets to uncover. The story and writing were also great, save for two or three generally unlikeable characters.

People point at 13's flaws of being linear as just the map design. Sure, the map design is laughably linear with no places to go, but that wasn't the only problem. What people (and designers obviously) overlook is the importance of having things to do or discover within whatever map you have. (EDIT: That's the reason why FF13-2 and Lightning Returns still have a weird feeling of linearity, even though the maps are significantly bigger. There needs to be things to do and they need to be interesting). P4G has maps that are as linear as you can get but if "feels" less linear because the areas are jam packed with things to do and secrets to uncover. Not to mention the writing in P4G is absolutely stellar, and makes those secrets so interesting and addictive. 13 had absolutely nothing to uncover until the very end of the game, and when you finally had something else to do (side missions on pulse) it was as boring, bland, and poorly written as the rest of game.

What people are really missing in these games are secrets to uncover and non-essential side missions that are cleverly written or interesting in some way. Square seems to dump most of their money into graphics and QA (most of Square's games run flawlessly, which is admirable when compared to some other companies), but they don't realize that it's those little secrets which reward players for investing their time and attention into the world that makes players really appreciate it. TWEWY and KH are games that seem to understand that, and that's the biggest reason I still have some hope reserved for FF15, despite all the negativity generated from the 13 trilogy.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-03-05 19:38:58
I believe X was far from Linear.

All FF's (not counting spinnoffs, MMOs and sequels) are linear. Both story and exploration wise. Some hide it more than others. (Even Gta is linear).

Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

Reading through this topic I see some hidden assumptions on what a good game is...

What the hell is wrong eith squeeny? No passion. The top ups may have some passion for their work, but the staff is only doing their job.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Helladen on 2014-03-05 20:25:34
Final Fantasy 15 is the key to reviving Final Fantasy. Turn-based battles are not that popular anymore, they are dead in a sense. Bravely Default kind of brings some new life to turn-based battles, but it needs more than that to come back to life.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: genesis063 on 2014-03-05 20:28:22
FFX was a very linear game in the sense that the story shuttled you along from area to area, without leaving a huge amount to explore. The reason why it wasn't a problem is because there are still a lot of extras to do in the games, and secrets to uncover. The story and writing were also great, save for two or three generally unlikeable characters.

People point at 13's flaws of being linear as just the map design. Sure, the map design is laughably linear with no places to go, but that wasn't the only problem. What people (and designers obviously) overlook is the importance of having things to do or discover within whatever map you have. (EDIT: That's the reason why FF13-2 and Lightning Returns still have a weird feeling of linearity, even though the maps are significantly bigger. There needs to be things to do and they need to be interesting). P4G has maps that are as linear as you can get but if "feels" less linear because the areas are jam packed with things to do and secrets to uncover. Not to mention the writing in P4G is absolutely stellar, and makes those secrets so interesting and addictive. 13 had absolutely nothing to uncover until the very end of the game, and when you finally had something else to do (side missions on pulse) it was as boring, bland, and poorly written as the rest of game.

What people are really missing in these games are secrets to uncover and non-essential side missions that are cleverly written or interesting in some way. Square seems to dump most of their money into graphics and QA (most of Square's games run flawlessly, which is admirable when compared to some other companies), but they don't realize that it's those little secrets which reward players for investing their time and attention into the world that makes players really appreciate it. TWEWY and KH are games that seem to understand that, and that's the biggest reason I still have some hope reserved for FF15, despite all the negativity generated from the 13 trilogy.
Going off of this I guess it doesn't help that they are doing what five projects at a time?
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: StickySock on 2014-03-05 21:36:35
All FF's (not counting spinnoffs, MMOs and sequels) are linear. Both story and exploration wise. Some hide it more than others. (Even Gta is linear).

Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

Reading through this topic I see some hidden assumptions on what a good game is...

What the hell is wrong eith squeeny? No passion. The top ups may have some passion for their work, but the staff is only doing their job.

I don't know about that. I would say the director and writers hold most of the blame, though I don't know how high up you would consider their status. The programmers and artists seem to have done an amazing job on all three 13 games. The flaws in the games are more fundamental than just lazy work by the team.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: genesis063 on 2014-03-05 22:07:40
This is a classic case of wishing we knew how things work so we can give our concerns to the right people instead of dumping it all on Nomura.  I love the designs on all their games as well.  I just wish we could tell the people where it is lacking on how we like to see it fixed.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-03-05 23:12:50
Bravely Default kind of brings some new life to turn-based battles, but it needs more than that to come back to life.
South Park: The Stick of Truth has surprisingly deep turn-based battles, at least from what I've played so far. In particular, I like the "bleeding" mechanic, which is like poison but stackable, and the ability for enemies to swap their weakness on-the-fly by changing stances adds a fair bit of depth also (though not a lot because you can have a melee weapon and a ranged weapon equipped at the same time).

I think the reason turn-based battles aren't popular these days is largely because studios don't have the confidence to try. When I look at recent games with turn-based combat, I see very few games coming out (Bravely Default, Fire Emblem), but those I do see seem to be getting good reviews. I think if more studios would just release these games, they would do well.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-03-06 00:14:53
The stick of truth is a surprise refreshment for todays standards! I like it as well and wish to play it sometime!
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-03-06 17:08:44
I don't know about that. I would say the director and writers hold most of the blame, though I don't know how high up you would consider their status. The programmers and artists seem to have done an amazing job on all three 13 games. The flaws in the games are more fundamental than just lazy work by the team.

Yes the graphics are amazing.
Lack of passion =/= lazy. It's a lack of passion in general amongst the whole team.
Mass Effect 3 had the same problem.

Oh, Stick of truth. Can't wait to play it!  ;D
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: SilverSpades on 2014-03-09 03:34:25
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-03-09 13:32:30
Stick of truth did what Square should have done with their battle system long ago before releasing the new FFs... And they could still keep their awesome graphics in the game.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-03-09 13:35:17
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.

No they're not.  But when you replace a system with another, you should make it work just as well, if not better.  The systems in FF12 13 and beyond are inferior to 7s.   1- 10 had tactics...  the implementation of their battle system could hve been better, but the actual systems are far more intelligent and have a much greater potential.

Having mindless slashing and numbers flying all over with no idea what is going on is lazy design.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-03-09 13:45:18
...numbers flying all over with no idea what is going on...

Haha... that sounded so like from the mouth of an old folk (like us though) :D
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-03-09 17:38:55
RPGs are not restricted to a specific kind of battle-style such as turn-based.
I completely agree. There are some very good action RPGs out there. But through fourteen years of turn-based Final Fantasy games, putting that name on it DID imply turn-based. They had a concept, and with each iteration they evolved and expanded upon it... until FFXI, where they began a new trend of making each new entry completely different. Making games with different combat styles is fine, but it was never in keeping with what Final Fantasy was.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: cmh175 on 2014-03-09 20:03:58
Stick of truth did what Square should have done with their battle system long ago before releasing the new FFs... And they could still keep their awesome graphics in the game.

Agreed I was actually impressed with how they did that. Not only that but that they're releasing patches and updates taking care of gameplay issues before worrying about DLC content. Very refreshing with developers like WB Montreal no longer supporting glitches in Arkham Origins and now only focusing on dlc. Who the hell is buying dlc content for a broken game that's likely to never be fixed?

Off subject, but yeah FF and Square have been gradually adapting to western game styles more and more. 
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Erdrick The Hero on 2014-03-11 05:23:57
What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
There are two sides to this question for me:

SIDE A: The side that has been talked about in this thread: Why did they ruin Final Fantasy?

My first FF game was Final Fantasy for the NES. Sure, the game's almost 10 years older than I am, but my mom kept her NES and all her games around, and now they sit in my bedroom. I grew up playing, besides Mario, SE's two major franchises: Dragon Quest (originally known in the States as Dragon Warrior) and Final Fantasy. Anyways, I went from FF1 to FF7, as at the time we didn't have a SNES. (We have one nowadays, but still don't have IV/VI for it... I've got them both on the PS1 though.) Of course, being like 5 years old when I started being able to read on my own, I never finished either of them because I was an impatient child. We've got every main FF game up to 12 in some form or another now, but I have yet to finish any of them, actually. I'm working on VII now though. But  I've noticed that none of the games past IX, including spinoffs, (besides Itadaki Street which I was able to import - though I got that for the Dragon Quest side mainly) are any fun for me. Besides what has already been mentioned by others, I don't really have anything to add here.

SIDE B: Why won't Square Enix release more Dragon Quest games in the US (or other non-japanese countries)? I mean, seriously! I know this forum is for FF fans, but for those here who haven't played any Dragon Warrior or Dragon Quest game, you really should try one (or mulitple, or all of them) out. Dragon Quest has evolved throughout the years, yes, but it has managed to maintain storytelling and a classic JRPG feel throughout it's run. Even Dragon Quest X, which is an MMO, is fun - even fun enough to play in a language I don't understand. (Unfortunately, though I managed to play during the PC open beta, I cannot afford to pay the monthly fee to keep playing currently. And even if I had the money, I wouldn't be getting what I was paying for, you know, not being able to understand any of the story.) The only DQ game I feel (Beside X, because I can't judge it in japanese) that is lacking in story, is DQIX on the DS. It was disappointing, but I can chalk that up to being an experimental game - it was Dragon Quest's first foray into multiplayer. (Who thought that a multiplayer RPG on a handheld system would work? I guess it worked OK in japan due to the massive fanbase, but internationally I feel it was a bit of a flop.)

Also, I have to agree with Kalderasha about DQ8 being the best RPG on the PS2, but I really didn't like the "enhancements" made for the international release. Chalk that up to notalgia though. Oh, and load times.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Jaki on 2014-03-11 06:24:59
.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-03-11 10:27:58
What if the next FF is good? Should we ask what the hell is wrong with this thread?

No, that wouldn't change anything that has been said here.  And the chances of the next one being good are almost 0.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2014-03-12 02:36:11
Concerning character growth, I think 8, 10 and 12 are the most non-linear. 10 kinda depends whether you choose simple or advanced spheregrid. Simple = linear character growth as busywork.

North American FFX had simple Sphere Grid only.

Anyway, I absolutely loathed FFX.  As I said, it was the game that made me stop buying games in the series near release date.  I still rank Tidus one of the most obnoxious main characters ever written for a video game.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2014-03-12 11:32:33
I still rank Tidus one of the most obnoxious main characters ever written for a video game.


"This is my story, MY STORY, MY STORY"

Fuck off you annoying twunt, it's Yuna's story, you're just here for the ride 'cause yo daddy is a giant monster you floppy haired prick.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Shard on 2014-03-12 13:28:26
FFX would have been far more enjoyable if Tidus wasn't a worthless moron. It had a really good plot and the battle system was actually really good.

Him and Blitzball ruined that game. Pretty much the only reason I ever replay it is because of Auron.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-03-12 15:02:06
Thanks guys! I thought I was one of the few who thought Mr. "meh... meh... meh... I'm a dream!" was an idiot...
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: genesis063 on 2014-03-14 10:29:07
FFX would have been far more enjoyable if Tidus wasn't a worthless moron. It had a really good plot and the battle system was actually really good.

Him and Blitzball ruined that game. Pretty much the only reason I ever replay it is because of Auron.
Am I the only one that sees him as ignorant?  You have to understand he is brand new to that world.  More or less it really was his story everything in the game was related to him.  The Aeons chose him to end their sleep not Yuna.  So imagine you are in Tidus's shoes in a new world of course you be excited and dumbfounded on countless occasions.  He and Aaron actually had the most sense out of the bunch.  Everyone else is all gun hoe about the whole sacrifice your guardian to become a new final Aeon.  Tidus was the only one to question that it could be a bad idea and it was really fishy.  I think people underestimate him and judge him to much.  As for the father thing who doesn't have atleast some parent issues in your life at one point in time?  On another note yes Aaron was pretty bad ass.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-03-14 10:49:21
Of course it was "his story", he is the main protagonist that the player identifies with and guides.  And when someone is telling a story from their own perspective, they don't say "let me tell you about my friend's story" .  That's just nitpicking.

I also don't see his voice actor as any worse than what is normally in the games industry.  I thought it was generally very solid for a game.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Nightmare799 on 2014-03-18 15:19:27

"This is my story, MY STORY, MY STORY"

f*ck off you annoying twunt, it's Yuna's story, you're just here for the ride 'cause yo daddy is a giant monster you floppy haired prick.

Why so much hate? He was actually pretty pretty cool and likeable. I cant really remember him being ass to anyone ever.

People say he was a crybaby, but I would like to see anyone out of people who played this game being torn away from their world, friends, family etc. , and being thrown into different completely unknown world (or rather age) and being perfectly fine with all that.

Not only that, but the guys father was a drunkard that dissapeared when he was 10 years old (not to say Yecht was a bad person, as he deeply regretted what kind of father he was), and his mother died of anguish soon afterwards. After he finally finds his place in the zanarkand as player of zanarkand abes... *WHOOSH* Nice life you had there buddy, now it is gone.

That is a lot of bad stuff to happen to ONE person, so give the guy a break already.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Shard on 2014-03-18 15:34:12
Everyone hated Tidus because he was a whiny crybaby and also a giant moron. Yuna throws herself at him all game and he just shrugs it off. He tells every living soul in Spira he's from Zanarkand, even as much as three minutes after Rikku and Wakka keep telling him not to.

Honestly, it's the only playable character in FFX that I despised (Wakka was pretty annoying but at least he knew up from down). I would put FFX on the same level I put FF7 if the main character were anyone else.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-03-20 07:03:24
Fun to see how yet another topic has strayed of.
But imo, Square's design of some the characters is a part of the problem.
Yes, all traits of Tidus is by design, of course. And it's that obvious appeal to the mainsteam that bothers me the most. Same thing with pretty much all main characters in FF8. In other words, it's not really how they are design that really gets to me, it's why they are designed that way. And if the "how" also bothers me then... yeah.

With FF13 the borders between j-pop and FF are crumbling even more.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-03-31 17:18:25
This can only be good news for the franchise (http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/31/bravely-defaults-success-west-making-square-enix-rethink-jrpgs/).
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: AndehPandeh on 2014-04-15 11:40:51
I havent actually played FF13 due to a combination of never having bought a PS3 and having half gave up on the series apart from some spin-offs and 'side games that are sorta related' eg: Kingdom Hearts.

Honestly though I dont see why the new battle system in this game would generate so much hate; its been clear for a while Square have been targeting a more mainstream audience as opposed to the diehard JRPG fans, and a real time battle system will fill that need, but also imo gives way for a chance at much more strategic combat than turn-based would. In other words I feel that, if they play there cards right, they could actually please everyone for a change. (especially if earlier posts were right in them bringing back the staples of the series mostly lost from 10 upwards such as the world map; all things I think made the FF series what there were more so than having a turn-based battle system)

However, I *do* think they could have really perfected turn-based systems. In my opinion the slickness of X-2s battle system, even though it felt unfinished (it still annoys me how you can end up moving around the battle map when doing attacks and yet they done nothing with that feature) really shown a lot of promise for future games in the series.

In response to character design being part of the problem. I agree, actually I think that the general designs of the games has became completely blurred to the point its hard to tell one entry in the series from another; to me they all look too similar to the world aesthetic they created in X with minor differences (exception being 12 which was set in a universe they created aeons back anyways). Its honestly very off putting as I cant look at newer entries in the series as the same as VI-X where it felt like a whole new world had been designed specifically for that one game (5 downwards shared similar world designs, however I feel this is more to do with limitations on the older systems plus a fear to stray from what they'd always done, sides it was just basically medieval fantasy world but more colorful so I feel I cant complain about something 90% of other RPGs do anyways)

Finally, on Tidus, I think people are hating him for all the wrong reasons (yeah he was a bit whiny, but nowhere near as bad as most people are saying and at least for justified reasons; I bet most people would react much worse in the same situation) He does nonetheless irk me at times with the constant slip-ups bout Zanarkand, and going on bout how it was his story etc.

but on the otherhand, he felt like a real person. He was by no means the most likable FF protagonist; but I quite honestly see a LOT of love for other characters from this series that are so 2D in terms of personality, I really just cant understand why people would hate on someone who goes through pretty well written character development, irregardless of how annoying they can be at times.

(sorry for the long ass post x3)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Covarr on 2014-04-15 17:08:50
Honestly though I dont see why the new battle system in this game would generate so much hate; its been clear for a while Square have been targeting a more mainstream audience as opposed to the diehard JRPG fans, and a real time battle system will fill that need, but also imo gives way for a chance at much more strategic combat than turn-based would.
The issue with FF13 isn't so much that they changed the battle system, or even that it's semi-real-time, but that it's really poorly implemented. The balance of the thing is all wrong. It wouldn't work particularly well in any other franchise either.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: AndehPandeh on 2014-04-16 07:58:40
The issue with FF13 isn't so much that they changed the battle system, or even that it's semi-real-time, but that it's really poorly implemented. The balance of the thing is all wrong. It wouldn't work particularly well in any other franchise either.

Oh sorry x3 I meant the real time one they are apparently putting in 15? as I said I've not actually played 13 but I've heard mixed things about its battle system, with some saying its the best thing about the game and others saying its awful.

Of course that doesnt mean I have hope for 15 having a decent battle system either, from my experience, Square often implement new battle systems in their games that have amazing features yet nothings done to take advantage of them. X-2 is still my favourite example of this with the moving around the map as battle continues yet from what I remember it was entirely aesthetic.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Luceid on 2014-04-16 10:42:35
For me the most annoying part of XIII wasn't it's linearity, but its lack of difference in kind.
(See this as explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBR1z-ue-I&hd=1 )

All you do in this game is fighting for the absolutely most part of the game.
While this is okay 'cuz it's a J-RPG after all, it was too much.
Running your typical tube-level >> fights >> menus >> cutscene >> repeat
(But I have to say, that I still prefer semi tube-levels instead of gigantic mazes where you waste your time running from one dead end (no treasure) to another - time is valuable to us all)
Sidequests and exploration were at short hand on this game, although XIII-2 did a slightly better job.
I know that they wanted the story to be set one piece and not to be broken by "oh, let's check this cave out for a while". But it was too much. Until chapter 11 the game was truly "meh".

Also: Today people actually don't want to grind to the death. But that's truly what FF is about atm.
Grind, grind, grind...
Oh, and Confusing mechanics like upgrading in XIII (would have never used this optimal without GFAQ, etc.) or "Chaining" in XII (fire the guy, who invented this one SE!) or the time-mechanic in LR (WTF?!).

So... even if XV will be a mechanic-wise mix of XII, XIII and Kingdom Hearts it won't help much if there is no difference in kind at all. The game truly needs stuff like TT or BB as minigame, sidequests, maybe even moral-choices (and at best an ending-slideshow to show the results of your choices.)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: meesbaker on 2014-04-16 12:20:41
The true problem is the design of a confusing pointless story revolving around stupid characters.
In ff7 all characters had a lot of depth in them, in the course of the game we find out everyone's backstory and get a grip why they act the way they do and also find out that there's more behind everyone than the obvious and every character develops in the story in a way. E.g. Barret finds out it was wrong to place bombs and that he isnt a leader-guy and actually fights for Marlene than the fate of the planet itself.

FFX and all other great ffs were nearly as good in that regard plus an interesting story always made for a good game.

Those were SquareSOFT games. Enix is ....huh...different. The difference between x(soft) and x-2(enix) perfectly proves what Im talking about and should need no further commenting.

XIII is the same ridiculous like Enix said:“ Say good-bye to normally acting characters, beautifully narrated story full of epicness, emotion n stuf....“

Every character in XIII is NOT normal. Everyone is totally ridiculously overacting, each character has just a single characteristic(the cool, the overconfident, the shy, the idiot, the funny, the annoying one...) and its absolutely not convincing. Does Ebix not know how people behave?

Every conversation consisted of screaming, running around, hitting each others faces...

Like watching the worst reality sope of all time. XIII isnt better than the terribly scripted afternoon law court tv shows running on rtl in my country.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-04-16 13:14:51
Does Enix not know how people behave?

If they keep observing the buildings and the rail stations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq0vtCOBwCM) instead of the people they never will. :D
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: Kaldarasha on 2014-04-16 13:18:14
I would say Enix is more likely conservative part. I mean their Dragon Quest game design was ever very simple and consequent.
No this is defiantly the handwrite of Squaresoft. Look at the design change from Secret of Mana to Secret of Mana2 (or even Legend of Mana) or Crono Trigger and Chrono Cross.
Another problem was that Square wasn't intelligent enough to bind their true talents to the company. There is a reason why FF9 is the last true Final Fantasy and why the best JRPG since Dragon Quest 8 is now on a Nintendo console (and no it's not a DQ game or any other SE created game).
Anyway, since the XIV disaster and the successful Bravely Default experiment they might have learned something...
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: meesbaker on 2014-04-16 17:40:38
@Kaldarasha no Squaresoft game had this crazy overemotional characters full of annoyingness. The thing thats wrong with X-2 is just that same style thats wrong about any other ff game produced after it. Terrible overacting up to singing(and costumes!? Soft hadnt summink alike ever) , annoying stuff, bad story, terrible pop music(that bugs me most, radio music has no place in a ff, thats where the devil started), again BAD BACKROUND MUSIC....

How can that be a coincidence ? Up to X everything is fine and as soon as Enix comes by X-2 is a ridiculous pop-diva game? What they made of Yuna is almost blasphemic, when I compare the intro of FFX to the one of FFX-2 Im getting chills in a bad way...like horror, like it was an evil sarcastic parody of ffx.

And all other ffs after that were totally alike and you tell me that's all random?
You said its Square's handwriting, can you really believe that ff had developed just the same after ffx if Squaresoft had stayed Squaresoft?

No offense Im just curious... :)

@Leonhart GR
Lol finally I know why all ffxv trailers have boring grey urban levels its probably the whole game.



Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: AndehPandeh on 2014-04-16 18:40:31
terrible pop music(that bugs me most, radio music has no place in a ff, thats where the devil started), again BAD BACKROUND MUSIC....


I actually half and half agree with you here; I personally enjoyed parts of X-2's soundtrack, even the J-Pop songs, and I think it worked considering Spiras setting, it wouldnt have worked in X of course cuz of the overall depressing mood caused by sin and the whole anti-technology stuff but I feel it did work in X-2, (especially when one keeps in mind that the songs were basically from Lennes memories from a time when it made sense pop music would be the in thing) however the overall feel of the music did feel like it was marking the downfall of the series. It had nothing on the older soundtracks.
Nonetheless, I wasnt worried about the game until I beat my first proper battle and found out they'd changed the victory theme. I know it sounds like a silly thing to worry about an entire game over, but I honestly did.

I still think the music was decent enough, the majority of the tracks were just nothing special to me, then there was a couple I liked (not counting the vocal tracks, Eternity: Memory of Lightwaves and Leblancs battle theme: I'll Give you Something Hot) but the rest was rather forgettable.

Unfortunately the games that followed seemed to all have nothing but forgettable pieces... (at least XII did, seriously cannot think of a single track from that)

I think the true mark of FF going to shit, at least music wise, was when they had Leona Lewis for the theme song of 13. That was the point where I knew they were putting getting a mainstream audience above the actual storytelling... at least J-Pop isn't exactly popular in western countries, with 13 they had the japanese theme song and rather than having a english version re-recorded or simply releasing it over here in japanese as they did with Suteki Da Ne, they purposely went out of their way to get a artist popular over heres song in it instead, made even worse by the fact I dont think the song fit with the aesthetic of the world at all

of course this is just how I feel x3
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: DLPB_ on 2014-04-16 20:23:12
13 does have some good music in it though.  I hate that game, but some of that score is really well done.  Not surprising because it's from one of the composers who worked on X. 

Saber's Edge is great, so is Blinded by Light imho.

But compared to VI-X I would not put XII or XIII near it, and certainly not X-2.   
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-04-20 08:33:20
Considering music only, imo, it's only X-2 and the 13s that have been rather meh (even the mmos have some really good music).

Of course, there are exceptions like DLPB and AndehPandeh mentioned. One of the best one from 13 is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5pPn2YNmoM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5pPn2YNmoM)
Not only is the game ending, the music is pretty good as well.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-04-20 11:43:31
My favorite track from XIII-2 is Eclipse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xSITZQ_t38) with it's amazing prelude! I kept playing that stage just to listen to it's amazing soundtrack. The OST from the first part of XIII series was awful though. Especially the battle theme. I was feeling a news cast was going to begin.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: meesbaker on 2014-04-20 13:22:18
The themes are ok but nothing compared to the work of uematsu. After x he disappeared as he wanted to “spend more time on his band“ but I bet he saw the shit games coming and didnt put his music on such crap.

All we can do is replay ff1-ff10 forever and hope for a better future.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2014-04-20 14:33:14
The themes are ok but nothing compared to the work of uematsu. After x he disappeared as he wanted to “spend more time on his band“ but I bet he saw the sh*t games coming and didnt put his music on such crap.

All we can do is replay ff1-ff10 forever and hope for a better future.

Actually he made music for 11 and 14 too. And on 10 he had much help. He made about half of the music on it I think.
Imo FF9 was the latest FF with the good old real FF quality music. Uematsu made a comeback with Lost Odyssey, with the same kind of quality.
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2014-04-22 23:43:30
FINAL FANTASY 8 REMAKE ON PS4 & XBOX ONE TALK! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTR9mtXIHhc)
Title: Re: What the hell is wrong with SquareEnix?
Post by: meesbaker on 2014-04-24 23:04:14
Nah my friend I wouldnt wanna see that...
You realize what kind of games they are making now dont you? I love ff8 as well LeonhartGR, Squall is one of my favorite rpg characters ever but do you really believe SE can make him work on a modern system?

He'd be an annoying loser like Snow or so...
Much of that character was carried by imagination...the crappy graphics same as the fact that there were no voices but his thoughts as text had some very special effect I think. Some certain old school charme that is lost if SE make a screaming, jumping, flying moron out of him.

Ff8 had a lovely style and narration like all older ffs. Its just nice to play thru it but Im sure if you're looking for audio/video enhancements the best you can do is modding the steam version.

After watching AC I had a very hard time getting this flying idiot guy who referred to himself as Cloud out of my head and I definately do not wanna get more childhood memories raped. :)

Sorry to keep whining the same stuff about SE on every topic over and over, gotta be annoying but look at the truth: They couldnt even carry ffx from ps2 to ps3.
Yes hd and everything...Imo the faces in the remake look less fitting to the chars and the music sounds a lot less catchy and powerful. It has no brilliance or definition, just some washy keyboard crap.

Pcsx2 with gsdx plugin, Full hd, 6x scaling, interlacing, 1024x1024 textures and anti aliasing does a much better job at upscaling ffx.
And that remake left the game intact, all they needed to do was remastering. What do you think a ff8 on ps4 would be? It's ff13 with Squall and a Zell with a chocobo in his hair.