Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 3008419 times)

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2875 on: 2016-07-24 14:59:55 »
Thanks :)

I'm happy with all of those, except "My" and "Until" for cait. I'm aware of the issue with Cid / Barrett not always using the same words - but if you take this example:

“At first,it was revenge
  against Shin-Ra for ***taking***
  my hometown from me.”{NEW}

< I deliberately left "taking" intact here because it's a very serious dialogue and I thought him using a full word had more impact. I did actually think about that as I used the full word :)  Plus I don't want every single character using the same words all the time in every dialogue.  I've allowed for some flexibility.  But keep bringing this stuff up, because it's helping and the "My" by cait is a mistake.
« Last Edit: 2016-07-24 15:24:37 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2876 on: 2016-07-24 19:19:07 »
While it's correct to write Nordpol, I would write Nord-Pol or Nord Pol. Because I assume that the double meaning is intended. It refers to the most northern point on the map and also to the great mountain at that point. That's why I would separate the words to have double meaning of Pol intact and making it more noticeable.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2877 on: 2016-07-24 22:02:23 »
Yeah, but that's just a style choice.  The German word is joined - and the Japanese could easily have intended the same.

Tex2002ans

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2878 on: 2016-07-25 04:31:52 »
Plus I don't want every single character using the same words all the time in every dialogue.

Exactly! Just like when you are writing Fiction, you want each character to have their own voice (using certain words/sayings, have certain levels of intelligence, etc. etc.), and not merge into one unforgettable blob.

You want them to be unique, such as:
  • Yuffie is the only character who says "gawd" (7 times) + from a quick look, she seems to be the only one who drags some words: "c'moooon" + "boooooring".
  • Barret/Cid are the only main characters who say "whaddya" + they like cuttin' their "ing"s.
  • Cait Sith wi' his Sco'ish accent.



Earlier this morning I split each main character's dialogue so I could get individualized Word Lists. This is how I spotted some of those inconsistencies. I will probably do a few more broad passes like this before drilling down into the real nitty gritty. :)

I find it also helps you spot errors when you rip apart the text and visualize it in multiple different forms.

< I deliberately left "taking" intact here because it's a very serious dialogue and I thought him using a full word had more impact. I did actually think about that as I used the full word :)

I was thinkin' the same thing before I posted, and I could see the reasoning. I had the same exact thoughts runnin' through my head when looking at the places where Cid said "them" <-> "'em".

I will have to gather more stats/evidence in the more nitty gritty phases... I believe you will learn to see my ways! :P




"{PURPLE}♥{WHITE}" occurred 63 times total. 61 of those were placed DIRECTLY after the punctuation. Only these 2 had an extra space before. I have no idea if this extra space changes the actual display in game.

Quote
[onna_52.txt]

#xy 172 64
“Okay,okay.***{PURPLE} ♥{WHITE}***
  (You moody thing…){NEW}
“Come on,everyone’s waiting.”
{CHOICE}Everyone?
{CHOICE}What the hell am I doing?

Quote
[onna_52.txt]

#xy 188 72
“So,shall we begin?*** {PURPLE}♥{WHITE}***”{NEW}
“Sir,{PURPLE}♥{WHITE}
  did you choose this room
  because…”{NEW}
“…you’re feeling lonely?”
{CHOICE}I’m used to it
{CHOICE}I don’t want to talk

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2879 on: 2016-07-25 09:57:31 »
Yeah, I think that is a slight inconsistency. I've removed space. :)

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2880 on: 2016-07-30 16:51:07 »
I thought I'd fixed the parade, but seems I didn't.  Had to recode a lot of it because of problems with the ff7 engine - and to make sure this game is consistent and fun. I've tweaked the ratings too so you need a score of 60% to get the best prize.  This is difficult to achieve and needs a near perfect run.

This is mostly complete:
Code: [Select]
Cloud can enter the formation from places other than the rear.
A successful parade will occur even if Cloud is nowhere near the correct formation location.
Soldiers disappear before fully leaving the left hand side of the screen.
Cloud's speed is not consistent, and he will therefore move out of sync with the other soldiers.
Even if Cloud is in the correct location, the game can fail to detect it.
The gun move sound effect is not synced properly with Cloud's animation.
The original script programmer accidentally left in a debug dialogue message to himself.
The example soldier does not enter the formation properly.
Not much more left to do now on field fixes... just a ton of testing.
« Last Edit: 2016-07-30 16:52:58 by DLPB »

Salk

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2881 on: 2016-07-31 03:40:19 »
Incidentally, a "score" of 60% indicating a near perfect performance is completely counter-intuitive.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2882 on: 2016-07-31 05:13:50 »
Incidentally, a "score" of 60% indicating a near perfect performance is completely counter-intuitive.

It's down to 50 now.  But this is TV ratings... you wouldn't get 100% - and there are only 2 digits anyway ;) The original was 50 for a perfect score, also. The prize thresholds are set to the game, not the other way around.  It's a waste of effort and time to try to make the game (especially this parade) work to a score. It's ended up on 50 mostly by chance.
« Last Edit: 2016-07-31 05:20:15 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2883 on: 2016-08-02 06:30:06 »
All right, now I am guilty of making doing both.  Made it so that it's very difficult to reach 50% - but that's top prize. You need a perfect run to do it - and you must do it on first attempt.  After 3 failed attempts, the game will be made easier.  Because it's hard to finish it regardless.  With a keyboard, it would be extremely hard without the easier version.

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2884 on: 2016-08-02 12:21:34 »
Wait, so you're locked out of getting the top prize on the 2nd and 3rd attempts? That seems overly harsh to me. Locking the player out of the best reward on a lower difficulty is one thing, but locking them out if they deliberately tanked their 1st attempt because they knew they'd made a mistake just seems mean and counter intuitive.

By the way, if you choose not to lower the difficulty and you fail again, does it keep asking you to lower the difficulty each time? I think it should probably ask after every 3rd attempt, or you'll seriously piss some people off :P

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2885 on: 2016-08-02 15:33:49 »
You can't top prize if you fail even once.  You need a perfect run.  That's how games should be ;) No-one should get a top prize for failing at something and then having another go, that's why there are different prizes depending on score.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-02 15:40:16 by DLPB »

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2886 on: 2016-08-02 15:46:40 »
You can't top prize if you fail even once.  You need a perfect run.  That's how games should be ;) No-one should get a top prize for failing at something and then having another go, that's why there are different prizes depending on score.
Erm, not really sure I agree with this. You'll probably be enticing people to reload their save file until they get the top prize, and only giving one attempt will cause frustration all round I feel.
That's just my opinion, and I'm a completionist; I'm not content with missing out on something, unless it's my first time ever playing it. I have a feeling that many will agree with me.

When I used to DJ I would try to find a 50/50 balance of what I wanted to play, and what the crowd wanted to hear. If I just play for myself then I might as well not playing at all, same goes if I hate the music I play and I'm just playing for the crowd. There has to be a balance.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2887 on: 2016-08-02 16:09:40 »
I don't think top prizes should be allowed for not doing what the minigame wants first time. You shouldn't gain the best score if you fail at something.  That isn't fair on the better player, and it offers no replay value to someone to make them want to improve. The balance is already there - if you keep failing you get a much lower score but an easier minigame. There is a reason this is called a top score.  It isn't much of a top prize or top score if you can still reach it after failing.

Games have become too easy these days as it is.  This game is from the '90s, where games didn't hold your hand and gamers didn't cry when they lost.

The minigame directly after this one was harder and required precise timing to get the best prize, and that was the original game. It's also the reason I enjoyed replaying it.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-02 16:13:28 by DLPB »

Green_goblin

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2888 on: 2016-08-02 16:12:22 »
Yo don't get the Huge Materia if you fail the button combination in the Rocket (disc 2), so I agree with DLPB.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2889 on: 2016-08-02 16:15:41 »
Yo don't get the Huge Materia if you fail the button combination in the Rocket (disc 2), so I agree with DLPB.

I didn't think this point was going to be argued, because there are prizes depending on score.  If someone gets the best score, that needs to be rewarded.  Why wouldn't it be? If you do a poor job and get rewarded the same, that's nonsensical.  So I definitely won't be changing it. Plus, the minigame is tough to complete in 3 goes regardless, so then it automatically becomes easier - by which time you can't get any decent prize at all, due to lost ratings.

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2890 on: 2016-08-02 18:08:28 »
I don't think top prizes should be allowed for not doing what the minigame wants first time. You shouldn't gain the best score if you fail at something.  That isn't fair on the better player, and it offers no replay value to someone to make them want to improve.

But there's no replay value this way either - someone isn't going to play the whole game again up to that point just to get a better score at a minigame. Like DynamixDJ said, you're just forcing people to reload from their last save, which makes it pointless to even let them retry without lowering the difficulty. Games are all about practicing and getting better - you shouldn't reward people who get by on talent alone more than someone who worked hard to get as good. In addition, you're rewarding knowledge of this obscure topic - I know what I'm going to do if I fail it, but if someone who doesn't know and just keeps trying until they get it finds out that they could have gotten a better prize if they'd just kept reloading their save, they are going to be understandably pissed. At the very least you should make it obvious that if you've failed once, you can't get the best prize anymore.

But it does depend on how the retry works. Does the entire scene restart from scratch, so it's like you never did it in the first place? Or do you get scolded, then get another chance to join a different group of soldiers? If it's the latter, then I can support not getting the best prize, because you screwed up in the continuity of the game. If it's the former though, it makes no logical sense for you to get a worse prize even though you did everything perfectly - if the game world doesn't know you screwed up, it shouldn't penalize you for it (unless you deliberately lowered the difficulty).
« Last Edit: 2016-08-02 18:14:03 by Ver Greeneyes »

DynamixDJ

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2891 on: 2016-08-02 18:24:45 »
I guess I see your point, thinking on it, but in actuality the better player is always treated unfairly due to the "reset button" (unless playing an online game of course).
But, being as you are a game's developer (or at least someone with the mentality of a game's developer),  I can see your reason for making the minigame as such. It's completely down to the individual to choose to reset or not, but as Ver Greeneyes mentioned, it's important for the player to know that they have missed out on the top prize available. Maybe some additional dialogue at your discretion, either before or after the game saying something to the effect of "50% is our highest yet, let's try to beat it!"?

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2892 on: 2016-08-02 18:33:45 »
We're talking about a small minigame here.  Hands up how many of you reset the game when you failed at it originally?  I know I didn't - and that was despite the crap programming that made it either super easy or super hard depending on where you moved.

I can't use extra dialogue - and that isn't how the original game did it either.  How did you know you had the best score originally?  You knew because it's obvious from the dialogue afterwards - the exact same as here.  In fact, I've managed to make it so that the scores fit the original thresholds.  50% is still the best prize, except now it is the highest score, as well. 

I think you guys are really overthinking this. You either play good and get a good prize, or you don't - and don't.   :-P If you want the best prize - earn it.  As for other question - if you fail, you just have to keep trying until you do it. As I said, 3 failures makes it a lot easier - but by that time, you are close to 0% before you get in-line.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-02 22:04:12 by DLPB »

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2893 on: 2016-08-03 00:24:44 »
As for other question - if you fail, you just have to keep trying until you do it. As I said, 3 failures makes it a lot easier - but by that time, you are close to 0% before you get in-line.

OK, my memory of this sequence is more than a little hazy, but that sounds like it's obvious in game that every attempt is part of the same continuity - in which case I don't have a problem with it. After all, you made a fool of yourself on camera at least once already, and it'd be weird if that wasn't held against you (though if you think about it, why does the absence of a single soldier make the ratings drop so much in the first place? :P).

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2894 on: 2016-08-03 00:28:35 »
Yeah, if we want to go down realistic road, I think we can safely say there wouldn't be a spare slot - and hanging around waiting to cut in line on national television in a dictatorship would not get you very far :P

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2895 on: 2016-08-18 00:56:08 »
Did the PC port refuse to play the Game Over music when failing the Bombing Mission?  For me it seemed to want to play the Mako Reactor music again.  Seems PSX handled this outside of script (possibly game over function deployed the music automatically), but it's failing on PC?

I have fixed it, regardless.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2896 on: 2016-08-18 22:18:29 »
Yup.  FF7 PC didn't port Opcode FF fully.  The Game Over music does not play as it should - so you have to manually add in the play music operation. On PSX version, Game Over initiates the music as well as the screen.

Salk

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2897 on: 2016-08-19 03:52:29 »
Never finish learning something new (and usually bad) about the PC port, uh? :)

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2898 on: 2016-08-19 04:11:24 »
Have to admit...  even I didn't see all this coming.  It's quite literally a nightmare :P

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R04c)
« Reply #2899 on: 2016-08-19 13:47:17 »
I hope you don't wake up to find you haven't actually fixed anything yet!