Petition to have FF7 Remake be a FULL TITLE!!!

[KnifeTheSky77]

A 1/1 scale of a planet would roughly be 25k miles around... Your telling me Square is going to make a 1/1 scale of a planet? Apparently you didn't graduate middle-school astronomy class.

You are making some astronomical assumptions here. Not all planets have the same circumference.

[hian]

A 1/1 scale of a planet would roughly be 25k miles around... Your telling me Square is going to make a 1/1 scale of a planet?

Now, I'm saying they might be considering making something to a 1:1 scale of FFVII's world - which is, by any standards, a pretty small world.
It could still very much be bigger than the countries you find yourself in the Witcher 3.

Keep rowing though.

I was comparing btw Novigrad and Velen to Los Santos which Novigrad and Velen are one territory with a major hub city, pretty much the same format as Los Santos.

Except that for your analogy to be correct you should be comparing Novigrad, the actual city areal, to Los Santos's city areal, which you're not doing, so still no cookie.

And btw the calculations assuming Velen and Novigrad are 1/3 of the maps territory than Los Santos city scale would pretty much match evenly with Velen and Novigrad in terms of Km2. As I said the scale of a game in terms of physical size is determined by its actual size relative to real measurements such as kilometers. Nothing in the gaming industry has gotten close to Witchers scale.. And with 3 years of development time I doubt Square would even come close as well.

Except we have no idea how long it's going to take until all the parts of FFVIIR are out, and there's the fact that this game is being outsourced to multiple companies. It's not just Square or CC2 doing the work. The interviews clearly stated that they're using MULTIPLE companies for this game in ADDITION to CC2 and Square.

And better yet how about we do some basic math here assuming my approximations are correct. The formula for area is Length X Width. Lets say your Midgar model was 6 feet long by 5 feet wide that seems fair right? judging by its scale with the people in the background and average height being approx 5.9 I would say that's a fair assumption.  Assuming this was the case and you multiplied this by a grand that would only equal 2.79 KM^2 in a rectangular area. Far from even a fraction of the area of Witchers Map..

Which would be that one city. I see you conventiently forgot to do what I actual asked you to do - calculate the size of FFVII's world using Midgar for scale. And on top of that, leave some room for the expanses they have in the works. Come back to me once you've done that.

Again Basic Basic BASIC LOGIC PUT IN HERE

You are not in a position to ask for something you do not possess an inch of.

[StickySock]

To those still defending Square: UNLESS episode 1 contains AT LEAST as much as the original game and additional episodes have completely new content expanding on the story IN A LOGICAL WAY; Then this is nothing short of greedy and prideful on Square's part.

That said, let's move away from the possibility of it being episodes like we think an anime or manga are episodic. Perhaps these are segmented games the way Pokemon is. You have to have both to get 100% or at least know someone that has the others. This is STILL a cash grab for SE as you aren't getting the full experience with full retail price of a "full game". That's why I never picked up Pokemon and am surprised that ever took off.

I wouldn't say that it has to be the exact scope and content of the original in each entry, but at least each entry needs to feel like a complete experience while at the same time being tied to the others to create a cohesive whole.

But my main point is that if each entry is a "full-sized" game like they have said each one will be, and that the games are actually good, there will be no reason to complain. If they are not good, or are not satisfying on their own, there is no point in owning the remake anyways, whether it is a multi-release or not.

The only way this is greedy on their part is if each "game" in the multi-release is just a fraction of FF7 (with no added content) sold for $60, at which point its easy to not purchase the game and protest with your wallet.

I love how people are fine with the prospect of paying 180 dollars for a game that  should be 60 and for a game that ideally in the past would be and would have been worked on for at least 6 years by square.

I assume this was directed at me, and so I'll respond by saying that just because I think that the prospect of multiple games is not inherently bad does not mean I have any plan of buying the game $60, let alone $180. Your opinion on the quality of the content should have a much bigger influence on what you purchase rather than holding tightly to a price-point like it is holy.

I believe in capitalism, so I'm not against games releasing at whatever fucking price the company wants to. If at some point my interest in the game = the price that it is set at or is eventually on sale for I will get the game.

Each entry in the FF13 series was available for $20 before the release year was over, so if you thought $60 each was too much you could easily have gotten the entire trilogy for $60. I don't see how it wouldn't be the same for FF7. If it is a quality product and people want it the price will remain high, but if it's not worth what they ask the price will inevitably drop.

[Zetaman]

Earth Is one of the Smallest planets in our Solar System.. and 25k miles around is what would be the scale of a planet.. If you where to make it any smaller assuming the world of FF7 follows the laws of physics as you people want to play by, the gravitational pull of the planet would be soo light life would be unsustainable. Assuming Midgar has the same gravititational properties as earth which it seems it does, it would have to be roughly the size of earth to warrent its believe-ability. But even it it wasn't and the developers decided to ignore all laws of physics, this would only strengthen my arguement as the scale of their endeavor practically would have to be counting also on a technical standpoint a TINY TINY planet in real world sense.

[hian]

Earth Is one of the Smallest planets in our Solar System.. and 25k miles around is what would be the scale of a planet.. If you where to make it any smaller assuming the world of FF7 follows the laws of physics as you people want to play by, the gravitational pull of the planet would be soo light life would be unsustainable. Assuming Midgar has the same gravititational properties as earth which it seems it does, it would have to be roughly the size of earth to warrent its believe-ability. But even it it wasn't and the developers decided to ignore all laws of physics, this would only strengthen my arguement as the scale of their endeavor practically would have to be counting also on a technical standpoint a TINY TINY planet in real world sense.

This is the most contrived argument I've ever heard. When did FF games ever even slightly care about consistent physics in their games?
I guess by that logic Xenoblade Chronicles X shouldn't exist (big open world planet, that is still way too small to sustain life in the real world).
People in game development don't make planets based on real world physics - they make them based on what works for the game and for the lore.

My argument is simply that it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect a 1:1 scale version of FFVII's world as it is presented in the original, small as it is - and that small as it is, it might very well be bigger than what we've seen in other open world RPGs up until now.

In either case, it all boils down to content times size. You simply cannot make the assumption that this game is going to be smaller than say Witcher 3, or that it would all fit on a single disk, when you literally have no idea how much they plan to make, or what the scale of the world is.
You literally know nothing of the scope of this game as it stands right now.

I am not making the affirmative argument that this game is going to be bigger than Witcher 3, I am making the argument that you have no way of knowing that it will be smaller, and as such, your entire tirade here is unwarranted and ridiculous.

You're working entirely off of assumptions towards a positive claim you have no way of demonstrating to be true, and using that to fuel your own anger and distress. It's utterly beyond me how you can possible think that's constructive in any way shape or manner.

As a caveat though - whether this game would fit into a single installment or not also depends on much more than world-size.
Could you fit Uncharted 1-3 on a single disk? All of FF13 or the three next installments of Tekken for that matter?
Games take space in many different ways depending on content and context.
We know nothing about FFVIIR as of this moment.

[Zetaman]

Now, I'm saying they might be considering making something to a 1:1 scale of FFVII's world - which is, by any standards, a pretty small world.
It could still very much be bigger than the countries you find yourself in the Witcher 3.

Keep rowing though.

Except that for your analogy to be correct you should be comparing Novigrad, the actual city areal, to Los Santos's city areal, which you're not doing, so still no cookie.

Except we have no idea how long it's going to take until all the parts of FFVIIR are out, and there's the fact that this game is being outsourced to multiple companies. It's not just Square or CC2 doing the work. The interviews clearly stated that they're using MULTIPLE companies for this game in ADDITION to CC2 and Square.

Which would be that one city. I see you conventiently forgot to do what I actual asked you to do - calculate the size of FFVII's world using Midgar for scale. And on top of that, leave some room for the expanses they have in the works. Come back to me once you've done that.

You are not in a position to ask for something you do not possess an inch of.

On a technical Level in DX 11 A world can be larger than around over 150-200 km2 its just not even possible on a technological standpoint given the fact that DX11 can only handle up to 8 light sources at a time better yet the massive data involved in doing so. Maybe if FF7 was DX12 I would believe it might be possible but it isn't. Add the fact that you were saying they were making a scale of a 1/1 planet that assumed a you know PLANET.. A planet is a very specific size, and assuming the world of ff7 follows the same laws of physics as the real world which it seems to at least follow some gravity exists for example, the planet you speak of would be soo small it would have a gravitational force that wouldnt even be able to sustain basic life. If you make things not to scale you dont have to worry about this you see... Which is why in a practical sense unless the world was the size of the moon and everyone there was jam packed like a street in india it would make no sense from a practical standpoint.. This isnt to "scale" Its not even physically possible.. But I guess Logic to understand that isn't quite obvious

Los Santos btw as I stated before around half of Los Santos is Rural area, Hmm not unlike Velen which btw actually consists of other cities. If you took only the city of Los santos and splintered all other territory including the rural area, and compared it to novigrad which is 1/4 of the size of the entire map scale, than they would pretty much be even.. considering the rural area of Los santos consists of roughly a third of the maps area substract that from 45km2 which would only be 30km2 Novigrad being 1/4 the size of the 136km2 territory Novigrad would actually be SLIGHTLY LARGER lol

Midgar itself is 2.97 km^2

http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/7/map2.png this is the world of FF7 rendered by a satellite like view

there are roughly 32 main areas that consist of the world of FF7

Midgar takes up around 1/32 the size of that regions area. Multiply 3km^2 times 32 assuming every other territory was in scale to Midgar the Map size would still be only 96km^2

Not to say that isnt impressive, but its not even close to the 1/1 scale of a planet..

[Zetaman]

This is the most contrived argument I've ever heard. When did FF games ever even slightly care about consistent physics in their games?
I guess by that logic Xenoblade Chronicles X shouldn't exist (big open world planet, that is still way too small to sustain life in the real world).
People in game development don't make planets based on real world physics - they make them based on what works for the game and for the lore.

My argument is simply that it isn't entirely unreasonable to expect a 1:1 scale version of FFVII's world as it is presented in the original, small as it is - and that small as it is, it might very well be bigger than what we've seen in other open world RPGs up until now.

In either case, it all boils down to content times size. You simply cannot make the assumption that this game is going to be smaller than say Witcher 3, or that it would all fit on a single disk, when you literally have no idea how much they plan to make, or what the scale of the world is.
You literally know nothing of the scope of this game as it stands right now.

I am not making the affirmative argument that this game is going to be bigger than Witcher 3, I am making the argument that you have no way of knowing that it will be smaller, and as such, your entire tirade here is unwarranted and ridiculous.

You're working entirely off of assumptions towards a positive claim you have no way of demonstrating to be true, and using that to fuel your own anger and distress. It's utterly beyond me how you can possible think that's constructive in any way shape or manner.

As a caveat though - whether this game would fit into a single installment or not also depends on much more than world-size.
Could you fit Uncharted 1-3 on a single disk? All of FF13 or the three next installments of Tekken for that matter?
Games take space in many different ways depending on content and context.
We know nothing about FFVIIR as of this moment.

You know what your right I'm working off of plain assumption especially when it is clear that given the release date, they are in a development cycle for the first installment of this game for at most 3 years.. I'm further working off of assumption when I actually MEASURE the size of content by real world standards an argument you tried to use against me with regard to the 1/1000 scale of midgar.. Im also working off of even more assumption when I look at Squares track record and what they are capable of coupled with what they are offering on the table.. A game that has been in fraction of the development cycle of many of there other projects but because it has FF7 on its package they are already announcing a episodic release.. Why dont they do this for KH3 then or FF15 PART 1 PART 2 PART 3? Why because they know it doesnt have the same name as FF7 by far their most popular project.. Again all assumption though..

Also Im not making an affirmative argument that one game is going to be larger than the other, Im just well lets not say assumming because you would never do that, suggesting is more like it that A modern city scale is quote retarded to compare to a Medieval city.. Oh and further that you wanted me to do the math for the size of the world of FF7 outside of Midgar because apparently I was unfairly singling out "one city" that you said could easily be 10 times bigger than any city in witcher 3

Oh and also about the planet argument I precisely said the difference between scale and non scale.. The majority if not all devs dont claim to make anything to 1/1 scale in land mass because it is physically impossible to unless Xenosagas devs said clearly we are going to make a 1/1 scale planet which you stated earlier, than non scale allows them freedom. I was simply pointing out the assertion that scale implies physical property, when you do something to scale, you compare it to real world properties thats what scale is, If it isnt physically possible well then it isnt to scale lol.

[Zetaman]

I wouldn't say that it has to be the exact scope and content of the original in each entry, but at least each entry needs to feel like a complete experience while at the same time being tied to the others to create a cohesive whole.

But my main point is that if each entry is a "full-sized" game like they have said each one will be, and that the games are actually good, there will be no reason to complain. If they are not good, or are not satisfying on their own, there is no point in owning the remake anyways, whether it is a multi-release or not.

The only way this is greedy on their part is if each "game" in the multi-release is just a fraction of FF7 (with no added content) sold for $60, at which point its easy to not purchase the game and protest with your wallet.

I assume this was directed at me, and so I'll respond by saying that just because I think that the prospect of multiple games is not inherently bad does not mean I have any plan of buying the game $60, let alone $180. Your opinion on the quality of the content should have a much bigger influence on what you purchase rather than holding tightly to a price-point like it is holy.

I believe in capitalism, so I'm not against games releasing at whatever ferning price the company wants to. If at some point my interest in the game = the price that it is set at or is eventually on sale for I will get the game.

Each entry in the FF13 series was available for $20 before the release year was over, so if you thought $60 each was too much you could easily have gotten the entire trilogy for $60. I don't see how it wouldn't be the same for FF7. If it is a quality product and people want it the price will remain high, but if it's not worth what they ask the price will inevitably drop.

You know that was actually a statement I could respect, so you have my thanks.. However I still believe people shouldnt be so easily swayed to be anti consumers and to defend sub standard work, not to say FF7 remake is, but its def not imo what square is truly capable of. I honestly respect your opinion though probably one of the smartest things someone has said all night on a moderate stance and not fanboyish stance. (If it sounds like im trying to be a douche I really am not trying Im being honest here)

[hian]

On a technical Level in DX 11 A world can be larger than around over 150-200 km2 its just not even possible on a technological standpoint given the fact that DX11 can only handle up to 8 light sources at a time better yet the massive data involved in doing so.

This assumes it's going to be one open world, not a segmented one like FF15, where areas will be loaded in as you travel.
Keep on racking up on those assumptions though.

Maybe if FF7 was DX12 I would believe it might be possible but it isn't. Add the fact that you were saying they were making a scale of a 1/1 planet that assumed a you know PLANET.. A planet is a very specific size, and assuming the world of ff7 follows the same laws of physics as the real world which it seems to at least follow some gravity exists for example, the planet you speak of would be soo small it would have a gravitational force that wouldnt even be able to sustain basic life.

Not of "a planet" of "the planet of FFVII" - there is a pretty large distinction which should be apparent to anyone with basic reading comprehension.

Also, good job conveniently ignoring the point that this would be equally true for Xenoblade Chronicles X, yet no a single F was given about this when they designed their planet. Good job.

If you make things not to scale you dont have to worry about this you see... Which is why in a practical sense unless the world was the size of the moon and everyone there was jam packed like a street in india it would make no sense from a practical standpoint.. This isnt to "scale" Its not even physically possible.. But I guess Logic to understand that isn't quite obvious

No you see, because if you could grasp basic reading, you'd know I wasn't talking about planets in the sense you're talking about them here - I am talking about a planet in a game - and a planet in a game, like physics in a game, or like pretty much everything in a game, does not have to be consistent with reality. "But I guess Logic to understand that isn't quite obvious" (don't you mean "But I guess the logic it takes to understand that isn't quite obvious.")

Los Santos btw as I stated before around half of Los Santos is Rural area, Hmm not unlike Velen which btw actually consists of other cities. If you took only the city of Los santos and splintered all other territory including the rural area, and compared it to novigrad which is 1/4 of the size of the entire map scale, than they would pretty much be even.. considering the rural area of Los santos consists of roughly a third of the maps area substract that from 45km2 which would only be 30km2 Novigrad being 1/4 the size of the 136km2 territory Novigrad would actually be SLIGHTLY LARGER lol

You're saying the free city of Novigrad alone (this : http://www.gry-online.pl/galeria/mapy/77555369_421.jpg) is about the same size of Los Santos city areal. I think your math is way off.

Midgar itself is 2.97 km^2

http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/7/map2.png this is the world of FF7 rendered by a satellite like view

there are roughly 32 main areas that consist of the world of FF7

Midgar takes up around 1/32 the size of that regions area. Multiply 3km^2 times 32 assuming every other territory was in scale to Midgar the Map size would still be only 96km^2

Not to say that isnt impressive, but its not even close to the 1/1 scale of a planet..

Not of a planet, no - but it would be the 1:1 scale of the planet of FFVII, because that's what it is in the game - a planet - and that's it's scale.

But by all means, keep on getting stuck in semantics and fight a windmill.

So we can agree that if they were to remake FFVII we're looking at approximately 96km^2 of land before we even start to consider added content, or expansions of areas.
Then we consider content, within the world, graphical fidelity, game-play systems etc.

Tell me again how it's inconceivable that this game will need several disks?

You know what your right I'm working off of plain assumption especially when it is clear that given the release date, they are in a development cycle for the first installment of this game for at most 3 years..

You don't know the release date, and neither does anyone else.

I'm further working off of assumption when I actually MEASURE the size of content by real world standards an argument you tried to use against me with regard to the 1/1000 scale of midgar..

No, I was making the argument that if we're going to talk about the size of the remake we should be going by a 1:1 of the original game's world - not real world standards, but whatever.

Im also working off of even more assumption when I look at Squares track record and what they are capable of coupled with what they are offering on the table...

Care to elaborate?

A game that has been in fraction of the development cycle of many of there other projects but because it has FF7 on its package they are already announcing a episodic release.. Why dont they do this for KH3 then or FF15 PART 1 PART 2 PART 3? Why because they know it doesnt have the same name as FF7 by far their most popular project.. Again all assumption though..

Maybe they will?
Also, it's quite obvious that KH aims to deliver a completely different game-play experience from FFVIIR, so why you'd even compare the two is beyond me.

Also Im not making an affirmative argument that one game is going to be larger than the other,

Then how is that you're arguing it makes no sense to put this game on multiple disks?

Im just well lets not say assumming because you would never do that, suggesting is more like it that A modern city scale is quote retarded to compare to a Medieval city..

It is the vast majority of the time, unless you're comparing old empirical capitals to rural modern villages, when you consider history and human development. But hey... Do go on.

Oh and further that you wanted me to do the math for the size of the world of FF7 outside of Midgar because apparently I was unfairly singling out "one city" that you said could easily be 10 times bigger than any city in witcher 3

Which it still could. We don't know one way or the other. I am not making the assumption that it is - I am asking you to consider that you might be wrong in your assumption that it won't.

I also wasn't asking you to consider Midgar's size for it's own sake - I was asking you to do it to grasp the scale of FFVII's world, which you now have, and admit is size-able. And that's the bare minimum if (and only if) they plan on remaking this to a 1:1 scale of the original world.

Oh and also about the planet argument I precisely said the difference between scale and non scale.. The majority if not all devs dont claim to make anything to 1/1 scale in land mass because it is physically impossible to unless Xenosagas devs said clearly we are going to make a 1/1 scale planet which you stated earlier, than non scale allows them freedom.

Again, I was talking about the size of FFVII's world not a planet in the sense of astrophysics and the real world.

The Xenoblade devs made a planet. The FFVII devs made a planet. Both of these are fictional planets.
The difference is that FFVII's planet wasn't made in scale to its characters - as is made patently F'ing obvious by the FFVII world-map.
Xenoblade on the other hand was. Things are scaled to the size of the characters.

My point about scaling of world is only relevant to FFVII because FFVII relied on a miniature abstraction to represent the world around the characters. When I say remaking FFVII in a 1:1 scale I am referring to making the world the size it should be based on the measurement of characters and objects within that world, and silly me, I thought that would be F'ing apparent to anyone who's played the game.

Apparently not to you though.

I was simply pointing out the assertion that scale implies physical property, when you do something to scale, you compare it to real world properties thats what scale is, If it isnt physically possible well then it isnt to scale lol.

You have a quaint idea of scale. Scale is a concept that deals with the abstract concept of measurement.
Remaking the world of FFVII to a 1:1 scale does not mean making it to a realistic scale - it means making all the objects in the world proportionate to standard length in the real world I.E if Cloud represents a human who is 1.75m tall, but the world around him has cities being roughly the size of his body, these cities are not in scale. They are miniatures.
Scaling FFVII to a 1:1 in that context, refers specifically to scaling the in-game world elements to proportion with one another, as they weren't in the OG.

This is readily apparent to anyone who's not a complete idiot.

[Covarr]

Enough of the petty arguing. Zetaman and hian, enjoy your warn levels. Everyone else, enjoy the thread being locked. ~Covarr