Author Topic: Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)  (Read 28187 times)

Ged

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« on: 2004-08-14 07:57:47 »
This might be a quite disturbing topic for some of you but I think talking about it won't hurt much. While playing for the n-th time a friend of mine told me to go to Nibelheim and visit the basement. After the long cutscene we sat down and had a long talk - she had a lot to say, and what she said made a lot of sense. Thus we talked and came up with several conclusions...

First of all, Cloud and Zack. Not many take notice of them, as Zack seems to influence only the basic storyline.. Well not exactly. Cloud and Zack are quite bound with each other in a strong yet intimate relationship. Take notice - Mideel Cloud's Mako poisoning is not his first case. After the Nibelheim reactor scene when Cloud throws off Sephiroth, Shin-ra decides to mask everything up - Nibelheim lives again, and both Cloud and Zack are taken into experiment. Zack being exposed to Mako, and being an ex-SOLDIER withstands it, and becomes quite powerful.. Cloud however reacts with Jenova Cell's, and togheter with Mako poisoning and what happened at Nibelheim, he is completely devastated both physically and mentally. The only one that took care of him was Zack. He led him by hand, helped him in every way possible, even decided to take care of him afterwards. Mind you - Cloud's childhood was not one of acceptance. Zack was generally the first one that treated him like an equal and took notice of him. Maybe not the first one that took notice of him. Here is where Sephiroth comes in. Cloud came to Midgar with hopes of a better future, of somehow being noticed. But he failed the SOLDIER test, he became a plain Shin-ra soldier. There he was most probably treated like at home - nobody cared for him much. The second reason why he came to Midgar was because of Sephiroth. He was his hero, the illusionary dream he wanted to reach. And Sephiroth did notice him - maybe because he thought that Cloud might become somebody one day, or maybe he was just toying with him. Nevertheless, Cloud was at Sephiroth's every command. Cloud was so deep in love with Sephiroth, that whatever he would tell Cloud, Cloud would do it. The domination was obvious - adding a sexual side of this relationship even more. He opened up to him. And that is the reason why Sephiroth can easily control Cloud afterwards - it's not only the matter of Jenova cells. Cloud then is betrayed - Sephiroth succumbs to his madness, and thus leaves Cloud with no home, no family, no one. He destroyed almost everything that Cloud had -- and then Cloud lost the only thing that was left as a meaning for him - Sephiroth. After the "death" of Sephiroth for Cloud, he is left wounded in the Mako Reactor. Here we come back to the beginning, where Zack takes care of him.

How does it affect later?
Take note - at the beginning of the flashbacks we don't really know who is talking with Sephiroth at Nibelheim. It's most probably Zack -- it's a dialogue of people who have known each other quite throughouly. Cloud's feeling for Zack were very strong - after losing everything, including Sephiroth, he was left alone, and Zack gave him everything and even more. But not for long - Zack's death came soon, on the very eyes of Cloud. The shock was so strong, that Cloud couldn't accept it. And he didn't. He pushed it away from his memory, forgot about it all, lost the most important part of himself. Here is the moment where all the memories, all his life became blended. Both Zack and Cloud became one. This is why Cloud's Second Mako poisoning is so hard - it just sprang all those memories back. He knew, he felt that it was not him that deserved to live, it was Zack. Living a life of two people, Cloud needed to accept the fact of death of the one that cared for him most and that was the thing that would seperate him to the living Cloud and dead Zack. All along the storyline Sephiroth watches Cloud. After the fall in the Church, the roof and flower bed weren't enough to secure such a fall. Jenova cells, now controlled by Sephiroth, known for the power of regeneration in SOLDIER affected Cloud. By Jenova cells, Sephiroth could continue controlling Cloud - knowing him throughouly it was quite an easy task. He keeps luring him in, confusing even more, making him a more useful puppet, a puppet lost in himself and his own fear.

And what helped him out? His friends. Aerith, who showed that you can feel even after being killed by all your hopes - she led him to understanding that. Tifa, who supported him all along the way, and as an anchor to the past, she played the most important role. She also kept the truth from him, and thus unknowingly she confused him even more. Lifestream was the last chance for Cloud to come back and to understand what has happened. But, Cloud does not stay. He leaves them, he needs to know, and understand. He still hasn't healed.. (quotations are from a Japenese AC trailer) "I don't think I can save anyone. My family, my friends, no one". Standing by Zack's grave (the dead flowers and Zack's sword - a grave he only knew about, took care of it, and made it with his bare hands) he says - "I will live till the moment you did. This is what I have decided". Those who didn't notice what happened between Cloud and Zack won't understand how much it means. And it's quite crucial - it's the reason for which Cloud left..

I guess that's all so far.. If you have anything to discuss, please feel free.. Spare any useless comments.. This topic is serious enough. And please forgive any typing mistakes..

Messiah99

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: 2004-08-14 09:21:37 »
Just a couple minor things, but just my own thoughts....

Zack and Cloud's relationship strestches back further than just that last visit to Nibelheim. Remember on the trip there, Zack made the effort to include Cloud, talking to him when he had the motion sickness, as well as Cloud's mention that his memory's had been created by the war stories that Zack had told him during their time together.

The fusion of Cloud's memory's with Zack's was not a choice of Cloud's, nor was it even something he was aware of. He looked up to Zack so much, Zack was second only to Sepheroth you might say. And even up through the Nibelheim incident and on to when he has the Mako poisoning and is taken to Midgar, Zack was always more considerate of Cloud than he thought he deserved, remember he considered himself a failure for not making Soldier, and wouldnt even face the people in his home town.

     (Except for his mother, as I believe the memories of her were true, since he was from Nibelheim and Zack was not. Also remember the Inn was one bed short, which could mean perhaps that Cloud slept at home that night, and Zack's memories of Nibelheim did not entierly overtake Cloud's.)

     Now remember, Jenova cells didnt alter Clouds memory because they wanted to, it was done as a defense mechanism in the need of a memory. Just as the Mako poisoning at Mideel snapped Cloud back to reality, the Mako at Nibelheim was what scambled his brain to begin with. The Jenova cells made up for what the Mako poinsing did to Cloud's mind.

     When Jenova cells had to reconstruct Cloud's memories, it did so using the glorious memories of Zack as opposed to the shameful ones of Cloud, to remember as his time in Soldier to tell Tifa, because Clouds memories were ones he felt ashamed of. But this was not a move on Cloud's part, he believed fully that what Jenova presented was his true memory.

Also, what Zack and Cloud were subject to in Nibelheim was far more than just infusing them with Jenova cells and Mako like was done to Soldier. What they underwent was a far more advanced form, attempting to use Jenova cells to fashion them into clones of Sephiroth. The reason Cloud was so devastated by the procedure was that he was the weaker of the two. Zack had been infused with Jenova cells when he joined Soldier, and so, after Sephiroth slashed him in the reactor, he was not killed, and the Jenova cells went to work reconstructing his body and mind. Cloud had never before then been subjected to 'Jenova Cells and Mako Soup' infusions, thus his body and mind were damaged more severly prior to the experiment. The result, Cloud was not able to withstand the stress of the experiment, which broke his mind down even further, and was unable to do anything of his own volition until they reached Midgar and Zack was already dead.

In which case, the quotes youve given there could come across as him showing his guilt after knowing that Zack died while he lived that day outside Midgar, and he was able to do nothing to save his only friend.

If thats been at all enlightening or useful to anyone, I dont know. If Ive rambled on too much, I apologize to anyone who's time I've wasted.

NeoS

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: 2004-08-14 11:50:05 »
But as I recall, Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor, right? And Sephiroth ends up at the northern crater being *flushed* by the lifestream. Then the reunion starts as anticipated by Hojo, who created the Sephiroth clones. Sephiroth tries to confuse Cloud by saying he was 'constructed' by Hojo and is a failed experiment. And asks Tifa if he should show them her "real" thoughts. (question: She isn't injected with Jenova Cells, so he doesn't have control over her. How the hell would he reveal her thoughts?) Which she obviously doesn't want to share. Cloud believes Sephiroth and decides to give the black materia to Sephiroth when they encounter him in the whirlwind maze (crater).

Earlier when the party is in Gongaga and they speak to Zack's parents, Tifa acts like she knew him too. (since she was the guide to the reactor at Nibelheim) So, if 2 members knew Zack, they obviously knew he had the buster sword and Cloud didn't. Wouldn't it appear strange that they don't recognize the sword and link it to Zack?

Well, I guess I gotta take a refresh course FF7  :) Cuz when typing this I suddenly remembered stuff. ( I finished the game about 5 years ago... and my memory isn't that good)
N.

Ged

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: 2004-08-14 12:44:29 »
Quote from: NeoS
But as I recall, Cloud throws Sephiroth into the reactor, right?

Yes, at the end of the Nibelheim scene. I mentioned it above - afterwards they are found wounded in the reactor and Shin-ra covers up the whole scene.

Quote from: NeoS
(question: She isn't injected with Jenova Cells, so he doesn't have control over her. How the hell would he reveal her thoughts?) Which she obviously doesn't want to share.

This is an example of Sephiroth's manipulation. We know that, Sephiroth knew that, but Tifa didn't. And from her behaviour it was obvious she knew something and didn't want to share.

Quote from: NeoS
Cloud believes Sephiroth and decides to give the black materia to Sephiroth when they encounter him in the whirlwind maze (crater).

Yes.. Sephiroth controlling Cloud as a puppet - knowing him, and having the possibility of control via Jenova Cells he manages both to give him the Black Materia and try to kill Aerith in the Temple of Ancients, and then again giving him the Black Materia at the Northern Crater. I guess Cloud's succumbing under Sephiroth is just repeating a kind of pose from when he was looking up to him as his ideal.

Quote from: NeoS
So, if 2 members knew Zack, they obviously knew he had the buster sword and Cloud didn't. Wouldn't it appear strange that they don't recognize the sword and link it to Zack?

Cloud couldn't remember. The memory of Zack was locked deep within him. Aerith on the second had no idea if Zack ever met Cloud. He told her that he was in SOLDIER - I guess that the Buster Sword wasn't such a rarity there - so Aerith had no point in sharing her private memories. Tifa knew, but she hid it..

I'm quite interested what they are going to do with the Zack and Cloud part in FF7:AC. As he is visiting the grave I guess Square is still putting stress on the importance of Zack's character influence on Cloud.

I guess now that I and my friend came up with such a conclusion it would be good to play FF7 again looking at it from that side and trying to find even more.

NeoS

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: 2004-08-14 14:05:20 »
Well, i'm (trying to, see my posts regarding crashes) play it again. I just had another crash with the movie revealing the weapons, so i'm not that far yet. What was said earlier about the inn in Nibelheim having one bed short and Cloud sleeping at home never even cross my mind  :D. I like discussing about it, because i'm still a little confused about the complete storyline. There's one thing that couldn't be right in the game. That's the ending movie. You see Red XIII with pups... I thought he supposed to be the last of his kind?

Almighty_gir

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: 2004-08-14 20:06:33 »
but wasnt red xiii also an experiment in the jenova project? all the clones had numbers, and he was labeled 13. so shouldnt that influence anything sephiroth and cloud did/do also?

EmperorSteele

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: 2004-08-15 02:58:21 »
nah, Hojo just numbers all his subjects.  I'm sure Aeris would ahve recieved a tatoo eventually... actually, i'm not sure why she DOESN'T have one.  *shrgs*

failing that, he did inject j-cells into nanaki, but they didnt take with his "whatever the fuck he is" physiology.

I'll be honest, i thought this was going to ba a "OMG Zack and cloud had gay secks wtf lol!" thread =P

But yeah, i agree witht he initial post for the most part.  I'm too tired to nit-pick right now, thought =)

Ged

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: 2004-08-15 06:42:53 »
Quote from: EmperorSteele
failing that, he did inject j-cells into nanaki, but they didnt take with his "whatever the f*** he is" physiology.


Do you really think that he did so? He was supposed to evolve the dying species, mutating them by adding Jenova Cells would be useless. I doubt he kept injecting Jenova Cells into everything he could get a hold of. Maybe he was a mad scientist, but I guess he had brains.

EmperorSteele

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: 2004-08-15 09:16:52 »
Well, i have a theory about that... if j-cells invoke mutation, perhaps he was trying to make nanaki metamorph into a more humaniod and thereor, compatable, form with which to impregnate aeris.  Apparently, it didn't take.

Ged

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: 2004-08-15 09:56:15 »
I doubt it. If he really planned on doing so, he would wait for the effects. I still think there was no point in planting Jenova cells into Nanaki. He might've planned on doing it afterwards, after mating Aerith and Nanaki, and looking on what would be born from that. Afterwards I guess Nanaki would be kind of useless and then experimenting on him would pose no problem.

Messiah99

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: 2004-08-16 07:07:39 »
Nothing to do with the mutations, the mutations came from the infusion of Mako into Soldier, not the J-cells (see the Kalm flashback and the revelation of the monsters in the reactor). The J-cells, in small amounts, gave them the regenerative ability. So by injecting cells into Red XIII and Aerith, he can prolonge their lives for the sake of long-term experiments.

NeoS

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: 2004-08-16 11:44:18 »
Is that neccessary with Red XIII? He already was 128 years old or something... I believe that the only reason Hojo had to inject J-cells into someone was if he/she/it was a potential Sephiroth clone.

Darkdevil

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: 2004-08-16 15:15:50 »
I thought it was pretty obvious that the only reason hojo had Naniki in the labs was to give aeris a good'un.

Relf

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: 2004-08-16 17:20:11 »
Quote from: Darkdevil
I thought it was pretty obvious that the only reason hojo had Naniki in the labs was to give aeris a good'un.

Why not, lets get a giant red dog to kill aeris, Sounds good to me :wink:

Bunnie-Maru

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: 2004-08-16 18:05:28 »
Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?

 :-?

Relf

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: 2004-08-16 19:19:14 »
Quote from: Bunnie-Maru
Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?

 :-?

I thought about that... then just hoped wheat I said was right :lol:

Threesixty

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: 2004-08-17 05:22:41 »
I can twist this into something totally different.....I'm already doing it at IGN. I guess I can paste and cut some of it here.
Quote

Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's memories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory...... A boy named Cloud might've just been a part of them.

Quote

Ifalna: "I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the land they loved... That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

What do you think, 'our dead mothers and brothers.' means? The only conclusion I can think of is shapeshifting..... and 'Showing us spectres of their past' tells me Jenova is able to read minds, too.

Cloud, like Sephiroth is a special case....you see, Cloud has Tifa's memories inside of him....memories of himself, as a child. None of the other clones have that...true memories mixed in with the false once. That is Cloud's struggle, He has two personalities, one controlled by Jenova, and the other is an imprint of Tifa's memories with the Promise he made to her, of protecting her. Which by coincidence is his true personality. In the end...Tifa's memories of Cloud, won out and saved Cloud. Remember the flashback were Tifa ran into Cloud....remember the Shock screens, and cloud in pain? I'll get to that later.....
Quote

Zack:  "What're you gonna do when we get to Midgar?"

Cloud: "......"

Zack:  "I got a place I can crash for a while.  No wait, the mother lives there  too ... Guess that's out..."

Cloud: "....."

Zack:  "Yep...gotta change my plans! Hmm...  No matter what I do, I need some money first... hey, wanna start a business?  But what could we do?"  Hey Cloud.  Think there's anything I'd be good at?"

Zack turns and shouts at the driver.

Zack:   "Hey, old guy.  What do you think I'd be good at?"

Driver: "What're you yappin' about?  You're still young ain't ya?  Young folks should try everything!  You gotta pay your debts while you're still young.  Go out and look for what you really want."

Zack:   "Try everything...That's easy for him to say... (does some squat thrusts for a bit then has an idea) HEY!  Of course!  I got a lotta brains a skill  that other guys don't.  That settles it!  I'm gonna become a mercenary!"

Zack:   "Yeah! Thanks pops!"

Driver: "Hey.. didn't you even hear a word I said?"

Zack:   "Listen, I'm gonna become a mercenary and that's that.  Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money.  I'm gonna be rich! So Cloud. What are you gonna do?"

Driver:  (shaking head) " No, wait...you got it all wrong."

Cloud:   "u..uhhh......"

Zack:    "Just kidding... I won't leave you hanging like that.

Zack sits next to Cloud and rests his head on him, Cloud stops shaking for the moment

Zack:   "We're friends right?  Mercenaries Cloud, that's what you an' me are gonna be." "(He stands up) Understand Cloud?"

The scene fades to Zack and Cloud struggling through the mountains near Midgar. They get to a cliff.  Cloud is still clearly sick and being dragged by Zack. Zack hears gunshots, he drops Cloud who slumps face down to the ground.  Zack unsheathes the Buster Sword and goes off screen to check out what the noise was.  He runs back and kneels by Cloud to check he is OK, then a bullet hits Zack in the chest.  He is knocked backwards and lands at the edge of the cliff. Two Shinra soldiers and a captain come on screen and run past Cloud to Zack. They surround Zack and shoot him several times at point blank range.  One goes over and aims at Cloud.

  Soldier: "What should we do with this?"
  Cloud:   " ...Ah... ughhhhh......"
  Captain: "...Forget it.  Just leave him."

They all leave.  It begins to rain.  Cloud drags his himself over by his hands to Zacks dead body.  He sits by Zack and picks up the Buster sword still lying across Zacks body.  He looks at it blankly then still weak and trembling he lifts the sword to the sky.  The scene pulls back to show the Midgar in the distance, then fades away to black.

I think Cloud is totally brain dead by this point of the game....or pre-game I should say. Everything that Zack is saying was being absorbed by the Jenova cells in him.....and everything that Zack experenced in the past, has also been absorbed. When Cloud picks up the sword....that is the keypoint of Cloud taking Zack's identity. All of Zack's personality, idea's and motivation now belong to Cloud. I don't believe Cloud feels any sorrow or loss over Zack. Cloud is just a puppet of Jenova. And Jenova only cares about one person....herself or.....maybe Sephiroth? (that's a whole other discussion.)
Quote

Tifa: We finally made it. We sure took the long way through.

Cloud: Tifa, you wait here.

Tifa: I'm going inside too! I wanna see!

Sephiroth: Only authorized people are allowed in. This place is full of Shinra's industrial secrets.

Tifa: But!

Sephiroth: (to the Shinra soldier) Take care of the lady.

Tifa: Mm, man! Better take real good care of me then!

I know, mind reading is a far fetched idea (as well as shapeshifting). But, how else can Cloud know about the confrontation with Sephiroth. There is no other way to explain the first flashback that Cloud describes. Jenova has to have the ability to look into other people's thoughts. And make them her own. The real Cloud was outside with Tifa not inside with Sephiroth, during that first flashback, explained by Cloud. Only a single guard, Zack, Tifa and Sephiroth made it to the reactor. The only person that the "real" Cloud can be is the Guard.....and he was outside with Tifa. Zack is the one that saw Sephiroth lose it. I could post up the whole script of that scene.....but it would be very long. I think everyone remember Sephiroth going crazy, anyway.
Quote

Tifa: Cloud... Cloud... ......I didn't know what to do. I was always like that...

Tifa sees Cloud at the Train Station.

Guard: What's the matter?

Cloud: Ohhh...

Guard: ......poor kid.

Cloud: Ooouugh......

Tifa: Are you all right?

Cloud: Oo... uh... agh Uh... uh... Tifa...?

Tifa: ...? Tifa! ...............? Oh, Cloud!

Cloud: That's right. I'm Cloud.

Tifa: Is it really you, Cloud? I never thought I'd find you here!

Cloud: Yeah, it's been a while.

Tifa: What happened to you? You don't look well.

Cloud: ......Yeah? It's nothing. I'm okay.

Tifa: How long has it been?

Cloud: (after some shocks) Five years.

Tifa: ............

Cloud: What is it?

It was 7 years, not 5....that's why Tifa was silent.

I think that's when Jenova is reading Tifa's mind and forcing the info into Cloud's empty head and then combining the truth of the events that Zack experenced. That is the moment when the game start and our journey begins....that is when Cloud regains a part of himself. It is the reason why Sephiroth/Jenova can't totally control Cloud or Summons him, like the other cloans.

We the "player" are his conscience...the little boy in his head.

And then later on, the image of Cloud is reinforced by Tifa....with the promise.
Quote

Tifa: Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us.

Cloud: Sorry, Tifa...

Tifa: The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying. Someone has to do something.

Cloud: So let Barret and his buddies do something about it. It's got nothin' to do with me.

Tifa: So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?

Cloud: What......? ......Sorry.

Tifa: ......You forgot the promise, too.

Cloud: Promise?

Tifa: So you DID forget. Remember...... Cloud. It was seven years ago...

(In Cloud's memory.)

Tifa: Look at the well. Do you remember?

Cloud: Yeah... back then. I thought you would never come, and I was getting a little cold.

In Cloud's memory as Cloud and Tifa are little kids.

Tifa: Sorry I'm late. You said you wanted to talk about something?

Cloud: Come this spring... I'm leaving this town for Midgar.

Tifa: ...All boys are leaving our town.

Cloud: But I'm different from all of them. I'm not just going to find a job. I want to join SOLDIER. I'm going to be the best there is, just like Sephiroth!

Tifa: Sephiroth... The Great Sephiroth. Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?

Cloud: ...I probably won't be able to come back to this town for a
while. (wondering where Tifa was as they sit in a well) ...huh?

Tifa: Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?

Cloud: I'll try.

Tifa: Hey, why don't we make a promise? Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind...... You came save me, all right?

Cloud: What?

Tifa: Whenever I'm in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to at least experience that once.

Cloud: What?

Tifa: Come on--! Promise me----!

Cloud: All right...... I promise.

Back to present.

Tifa: You remember now, don't you... our promise?

Cloud: I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep...... the promise.

Tifa: But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER.
So come on! You've got to keep your promise.....

Ged

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: 2004-08-17 06:16:38 »
Thanks for clearing up on Jenova..
I checked out the boards out of interest, and although I always joined The Kaballah with Sephiroth, I never thought of YHWH as Jehovah->Jenova.

And I agree - Tifa plays a major role in the recovery of Cloud's true self, without another person who knew the facts from the outside, it would not be possible. Just a thought - if Tifa got killed instead of Aerith (one of those wonderful rumors) I wonder what would happen.

Threesixty

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: 2004-08-17 06:56:55 »
It would depend...on when.

Anytime, before Tifa and Cloud fall into the Lifesteam...all would be lost. But it would also depend on a what if.....

What if Tifa was the Trigger for Cloud losing hope in himself. The part  when Sephiroth dug out Tifa's memories of that picture....the picture of Zack, Tifa, and Sephiroth....no Cloud in the picture. If that was the final straw...then it's anyone's guess.

As for the first part of your post....you lost me at YHWH.


If it means that Jenova is a seperate being.....I don't really think that is the case...I think Jenova is more of a virus.... but as a being she is probably dead. I'm still pondering this one. But I think Sephiroth is the one in control of the clones...but Jenova is the parent of the clones....and parent of Sephiroth, as well. If I'm to follow the script word per word...the dialog in the cargo ship messes up any Jenova in control theories..... I hate this. I like the idea of Jenova being in control...but the script totally destroys it.

Quote

Cloud saw lots of sailors and employees dead, as Cloud head into the cargo hold.

Cloud: Is it...... Sephiroth?

The soldier drops dead.

Cloud: No... not Sephiroth!

???: ......After a long sleep... ...the time...... ...time has......come...

Barret: Look, Cloud!

Cloud: Sephiroth! You're alive!

Sephiroth: ......Who are you?

Cloud: You don't remember me!? I'm Cloud!

Sephiroth: Cloud...

Cloud: Sephiroth! What are you thinking!? What are you doing!?

Sephiroth: ...the time...... is now...

(Sephiroth left them with a nasty surprise. Cloud's group fights Jenova-
BIRTH. After defeating it...)

Tifa: I've seen this somewhere... before.

Cloud: ...Jenova. You mean he's been walkin' around with that thing?

The body part from Jenova-BIRTH disappeared and turned into the
Materia. Cloud picked it up.

Cloud: So it WAS Sephiroth.

Tifa: He said something about it being time for something.

Cloud: ......Time ...is now?

Barret: I don't know WHAT the hell's goin' on! Cloud, why don't you
explain to me what's happened so far?

Cloud: ...I'll try, but don't interrupt me while I'm explaining.
Sephiroth went off searching for the Promised Land, so he could become
the ruler of the planet... That was 5 years ago. Then Sephiroth came
back and killed President Shinra. And then just now all of us saw
Sephiroth. He was carrying Jenova with him. ...This much I do know. He
told me he wants to go to the Promised Land with his mother, Jenova.
...I guess that's about it.


The killer of the Jenova in control theory is that Sephiroth is carrying Jenova, even though graphicly in the game....it's not so. If Jenova is in control, why is Sephiroth carrying it? What I think is really happening is that the Sephroth that we are seeing is not the real Sephiroth, but a clone of Sephiroth. I think everytime the Sephiroth in the North Crater takes control of a clone, it takes his form. This would partially explain all the tattooed cloaked guys that are left in Sephiroth's wake, and why they are making their way to the North Crater.

But then what if it's a Translation error....maybe Sephiroth isn't carrying Jenova...but just left a part of himself behind? It's very hard to decipher FF7 with, "your bases belonging to us",....possible errors.

On a side note...it's very possible that both Zack and Cloud were both killed, and that Hojo made the true definition of Clones out of them.....it "does" fit. I mean...they were imprisoned for 5 years...that is a very long time to be locked into a test-tube. After all, in every sci-fi show that's on TV... Clones are made in huge Test-tubes. It leaves Zack in the area of the unknown...but it would explain Cloud's memory loss.

Sukaeto

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: 2004-08-17 18:38:46 »
Quote from: Threesixty
The killer of the Jenova in control theory is that Sephiroth is carrying Jenova, even though graphicly in the game....it's not so. If Jenova is in control, why is Sephiroth carrying it? What I think is really happening is that the Sephroth that we are seeing is not the real Sephiroth, but a clone of Sephiroth. I think everytime the Sephiroth in the North Crater takes control of a clone, it takes his form. This would partially explain all the tattooed cloaked guys that are left in Sephiroth's wake, and why they are making their way to the North Crater.


The "Sephiroth"  you chase throughout the game is indeed NOT the real Sephiroth.  It's also not just a clone, it's Jenova herself.  When President Shinra was killed in the Shinra building, with the trail of blood leading up to him, that was the headless body of Jenova escaping from her cell.  She took on the form of Sephiroth, because that form would be the most intimidating; especially in the case of Cloud.  Sephiroth (actually, it was probably still Jenova) even says it himself: (as you pointed out earlier.)

Quote
Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.


The ability to change one's looks and voice is Jenova's.  Jenova was able to take on the appearance of Sephiroth throughout the game.

This still doesn't explain who was in control.  You could look at it two ways:  Sephiroth was just another victim through the whole the thing.  His body was just a catalyst for Jenova's essence.

Or, Sephiroth actually *IS* Jenova reincarnate, and is manipulating the dead, headless body that you chase throughout the first half of the game.

Threesixty

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: 2004-08-17 19:57:20 »
Yeah...I used to think like that, too. But, that doesn't explain why Sephiroth is carrying Jenova. As stated by Cloud on the Cargo Ship.

As I said earlier, that part of the script screws up any theories of Jenova in Control. If the headless body in Shinra can change into Sephiroth.... why would Sephiroth be carrying Jenova at any point of the game?

It would make more sense if Sephiroth ripped off his own limbs and left his own body parts behind for Cloud to fight. Especially, if Jenova's Body has changed into the image of Sephiroth.

And what of the reports of a guy with a number 1 tattoo, through out the game. Just about everywhere Cloud goes, there is talk about a guy descrbed as Sephiroth, with a number 1 tattoo getting there before him. Even when he was climbing his way up to Shinra Headquarters, there was dialog of a guy climbing up there before him. Which is also wierd being that the clones seem to be able to fly. And it then contridicts all the guys in black with different tattoo numbers. One that comes to mind is the one you meet at the Ancient Temple. Blabbing about Sephiroth was here. Does that mean it was possessed by Sephiroth and Sephiroth left it...or does it mean the black cloaked guys were following him, just like Cloud was.

And what about the statement, That Sephiroth made, just before Cloud switches sides. "This is the end of this body's usefulness". Since the Cargo ship dialog screws up any Jenova theory....who's body is he speaking of? A clones? And then who is speaking after that? Is it the empty clone speaking? It calls Sephiroth it's Master. And explains that everyone injected with Jenova cells must deliever the Black Materia to him. I doubt it is the same Sephiroth that said, "This is the end of this body's usefulness."

One other thing...why is Sephiroth killing the clones? The place is littered with them....he's killing them all. Wouldn't he need them alive to attract Meteor there? The planet's biggest threat is Jenova. Doesn't make sense that Sephiroth was meteor's target...then how would he absorb the lifestream after being killed by meteor?

Quote

Cloud's group moves on.

Sephiroth: This is the end... for all of you.

(Sephiroth slashed away two black figures.)

Cloud: Sephiroth!!

Cid: This is the end!

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.

Sephiroth disappeared.

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby......

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

(After Cloud's group defeats Jenova-DEATH)

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

Cloud: I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth.

Tifa: But Sephiroth is......

Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.


"I'll explain later", he says <sarcasm>....he never does. Just like the sentence about meeting Aeris in the Promise land.....no explanation, just a bunch of words completely out of place.

And lets not forget that Sephiroth, reappears and takes the image of one of Cloud's friends to fool them into following Cloud with the Black Materia. Apparently, he still had a use for someone's body.

The more and more I dig into FF7 storyline...the more and more I feel that there were too many cooks spoiling the broth. The story contridicts itself, in a few places. The purpose of the clones and how they are controlled is competely blurred in the story and it's the key to unlocking the thing.

Sukaeto

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: 2004-08-18 13:25:41 »
I don't think Sephiroth was carrying Jenova at all.  Jenova was leaving pieces of her body behind for Cloud to fight, even though she took the form of Sephiroth.  (Think about it: she could already take on the form of Sephiroth without her head.  Why wouldn't she be able to maintain it whilst losing other parts of her body?)  The only part of Jenova that the real Sephiroth had was the head.  He was carrying that when he was thrown into the lifestream by Cloud.

As far as the tattoo, wouldn't Jenova want to take on the exact appearance of Sephiroth, including any markings he may have had on his body?

I think that when Seph/Jenova said about "This is the end of this body's usefullness", it was Jenova saying that she could finally let that body die.  She had a new body in Sephiroth (the real one), and was ready to become a god in that body.

None of this manages to explain who was really in control, though.  I like to think that Jenova was the ultimate enemy in the game, that Sephiroth kinda got screwed before birth.

Look at the final Omnislash scene, for example.  Cloud is fighting plain old human Sephiroth.  He's not an almighty being like in the battle before, and he's fairly weak.  Now, I believe this battle happened only in Cloud's mind, that it symbolized him defeating the Jenova cells in his body that tormented him throughout the game . . . but it also symbolizes the fact that without Jenova, Sephiroth is just another human like everyone else.

Darkdevil

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: 2004-08-18 15:55:55 »
Quote from: Relf
Quote from: Bunnie-Maru
Uhhh...I dont think he meant killing when he said Good'un...did he?

 :-?

I thought about that... then just hoped wheat I said was right :lol:



Sorry mate, you got it wrong ¬_¬

Threesixty

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: 2004-08-18 16:42:39 »
Sukaeto, your going against the dialog....the dialog says Sephiroth was carrying Jenova. If we were discussing who was right....that scene would fold your argument. Unless you can prove it's a translation error.

Aaron

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Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: 2004-08-18 16:45:59 »
Quote
....that scene would fold your argument.

Or maybe Cloud and co. didn't know what they were talking about at the time...?

Dunno, but I think Sukaeto's theory is very interesting.