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Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: BlitzNCS on 2010-07-11 11:59:37

Title: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-07-11 11:59:37
Not really deserving of a thread in itself, but I feel there's still one matter that hasn't been cleared up yet that merits at least a two or three post discussion.

Myself and Espio were saying yesterday, how could he have stolen textures (and possibly the mesh of the face) from a game that wasn't even released in japan until two months after he posted it? (Dissidia was released in japan on my birthday which is December, so I remember it well- whereas Apz posted his Cloud in October). Even if there was some sort of demo out on jap PSN that I'm unaware of, I doubt he'd go through the trouble of decompiling it all to obtain a small part of a model. it doesn't make a lot of sense. Thoughts, anyone?

Although, after typing this all up, I realise he didn't release it on his first post, and it did take him a while after posting his initial WIP to actually get it done. Regardless, I'm sure it was finished before MrAdults finished properly decoding the format. Feel free to completely disregard this thread if I've just made a huge arse of myself.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-07-11 13:02:30
I think we'll just have to forget about it at least for now until Apz is online and prove that it is indeed his model.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Gemini on 2010-07-11 13:08:11
My guess is that he has ripped the texture file himself as soon as the game was available (no real need of particular and complex tools to do so). As for the head mesh, maybe it's original, but I wouldn't really bet on it given all the similarities. Definitively not a "legit" model, anyway.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Furzball on 2010-07-11 18:26:10
(http://dissidia.rhapsodos.org/images/art/exmode/cloud.png)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/Trophy.jpg)
Side by side pics people. I see no ripping.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-11 18:34:49
How about this side-by-side comparison?

Quote from: Gemini on 2010-07-10 11:51:38
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-10 10:31:44
I dunno, definately doesn't look like it to me. It's similar, but not identical.
They *are* basically identical. Just check the textures, not the textured polygons.

APZ:
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6818/rtac.png)

Dissidia:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff233/Geminimewtwo/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/cloudfacedissidia.png)

Only eyes, hair, and skin tone are slightly different, but other than that it's the very same texture.

Yes, I didn't want it to be true either, but they do look very similar.

I suppose it's possible that he was just very, very diligent in making his face texture look like the Dissidia one, but that's the less likely of the two explanations.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Furzball on 2010-07-11 19:48:13
Does this mean if found to be true his model will be taken down?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-07-11 19:51:49
It already has been.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Hellbringer616 on 2010-07-11 19:52:21
I can see a few differences in the face. the position of the eye that is not part of the half head is lower in AZP's version.

In dissidia you can see part of clouds hair below the Chin, in APZ's it's clouds neck (i think)

Nose is fatter in the APZ texture and the lip is longer

Chin is shallower.

Not to mention the metal that is in the Dissidia picture that isn't in APZ's

I remember he posted once or twice (maybe even more) that his second revision of Cloud was going to be a mix of all the different versions of Cloud.

I for one, Don't believe he ripped the texture.

As we saw in the video he made, He can model and texture
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-11 19:57:09
The theory is that he and then modified the Dissidia texture, so of course there will be a few differences. However, even if the texture is modified, it still counts as ripped from another game and is just as against the rules as the modified KH Cloud that was posted a few years ago.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-07-11 20:01:00
Does anyone have the original texture from dissidia for reference? Im curious if the other parts are the same as well.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Mako on 2010-07-11 20:10:37
I find this ridiculous for him to be even accused of this!. The only reason why his model should be taken down is because he wanted it to be or Qhimm. His model released 2 month's before dissidia release!. Even if he made a program to rip the model and converted them don't you think he could make a simple texture?. This form has seen its share of coincidences and that's all I think this is... I'm just someone who is defending a guy who took his time to give us a great model!. Of course now you can take it down now that all of the "older" members have gotten there taste...It is not my place to make the rules on this forum and I will respect them. But don't bash a good guy who gave you all something great till he explains himself.

PS: The hair texture is all wrong.Chin he completely off and nose texture is different too... 
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Gemini on 2010-07-11 20:18:15
Most of the pixels perfectly overlap, like a 98% match. Proof:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff233/Geminimewtwo/Final%20Fantasy%20VII/facesoverlapped.png)
30% transparency for Dissidia Cloud in this picture.

Come on boys, it's definitively a rip, no matter the little changes and the blurry pieces he later added to cover it all. :?

Quote
Even if he made a program to rip the model and converted them don't you think he could make a simple texture?
Funny, because only the face has sharp traits, while the rest is all blurry.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Mako on 2010-07-11 20:21:43
Why would he do that?...Its not that hard to make a texture. Sadly APZ was one of the people who inspired me to mod FF7. All washed away in an instant.

EDIT:Reference gone horribly wrong?. I remember someone making Timu model using his tutorials that looked identical, but that was impossible due to him not having the source.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-07-11 22:24:55
Mako, I feel exactly the same as you do, but there's too much evidence against him. They're exactly the same size, pixel perfect, and the row of pixels at the top of the face for the connection to the hair is in exactly the same order. Whether we like it or not, however it's happened, it's the same texture.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-11 22:35:42
@ sl, i already checked if other parts matched up, its only the face, hair, clothes, the reset, its all different.

As to everyone's idol being shattered, i get you. I got inspired by him too, in fact he got me into ff7 modeling/modding. although mildly shocking, this event should not shake the faith of any of you. whats important is the inspiration you got, and that you keep using it. If you got a jumpstart by being inspired by apz, its in you now to do stuff, don't need apz to hold yer hand :P.

What he did isnt a huge deal, just doesnt conform with qhimm rules. learning from pros like Square is a great thing to do, and i've gotten much better by studying their textures and models.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Nightmarish on 2010-07-11 23:09:53
Quote from: furzball on 2010-07-11 18:26:10
http://dissidia.rhapsodos.org/images/art/exmode/cloud.png (http://dissidia.rhapsodos.org/images/art/exmode/cloud.png)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/Trophy.jpg (http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/Trophy.jpg)
Side by side pics people. I see no ripping.

I don't get it.
In these 2 pic they seem completely different, although the face texture look very similar.

Someone care to explain me? :-o
I mean, i even like Dissidia face better.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-11 23:12:56
Pfft, everyone wishes this weren't true, but it's looking certain that the texture was ripped. sh*t happens.

(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6835/shoganaidaro2.jpg)

Quote from: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-11 22:35:42
As to everyone's idol being shattered, i get you. I got inspired by him too, in fact he got me into ff7 modeling/modding. although mildly shocking, this event should not shake the faith of any of you. whats important is the inspiration you got, and that you keep using it. If you got a jumpstart by being inspired by apz, its in you now to do stuff, don't need apz to hold yer hand :P.

This, 9001 times. It's like the Simpsons episode where Lisa discovers that Jebediah Springfield was a pirate but decides that it wasn't important and that the myth has value since it has inspired people. Except the myth has been revealed this time. Naughty Gemini! ;D

Anyway, even if another person supplied the inspiration, it doesn't matter now that the inspiration has been given; the inspiration to model shouldn't be depleted by the fact that it turns out that the inspiration came from a myth, and the skills people have learnt certainly won't disappear. I mean, some of the greatest works of art come from myths that the creator knew were not true.

Quote from: Nightmarish on 2010-07-11 23:09:53
I don't get it.
In these 2 pic they seem completely different, although the face texture look very similar.

Someone care to explain me? :-o

The lighting and positions are different, and the head mesh may have been modified, so they're obviously going to look different in these two pics. It's only by looking at the two textures side-by-side and laid out in the same way that we can see that they are identical.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Mako on 2010-07-12 00:02:25
Quote
If you got a jumpstart by being inspired by apz, its in you now to do stuff, don't need apz to hold yer hand.

It isn't about that, It was that someone could be so good at modeling FF7 who we all strive to be it be like  and create better stuff. But your right my drive is there and I guess I should still thank him even though he lied >_>. From scratch he said.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: koraz on 2010-07-12 02:41:51
Quote from: apz freak on 2009-05-18 01:39:11

It's done! The neck looks funny, but it's FABULOUS! :lol: Now I can start making the field model!

Although shamefully I admit that I borrowed heavily from the Dissidia models. I at least have it in my conscience that I built it up polygon by polygon. I know, shameful!  :|
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: ice_cold513 on 2010-07-12 12:02:53
They do look the same, though their are some little changes.

Just i little side note if APZ model did come out 1st, their was nothing to stop SE from taking his model and using it as in their eyes it belongs to them
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-07-12 12:17:10
Check the post above you, pretty much proof he definately took stuff from the dissidia texture. He probably just traced the UV maps then, with his custom mesh.
By the way, uh, koraz, you haven't been round here before have you? You know, with like a different account maybe?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Bosola on 2010-07-12 14:12:42
This is still controversial? I thought the evidence was pretty clear. Even forgetting the textures, the vertices etc. were still practically the same. It was pretty evident that it was a rip 'smudged' to appear 'different enough'.

Still, that doesn't mean the entirety of Apz's work is to be chucked, nor that his fans should become too downhearted. Whatever he did this time, he's still given us a great deal.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: koraz on 2010-07-12 18:10:47
@NCS
No, I don't have another account. But, I have browsed the forum off and on for several years, more frequently during the summer as I'm in college doing engineering... different kind of 3D modeling.
Edit:
I know there was a koral, but my name is actually just a password for me to remember for some other account (email, myspace, or something else). An anagram for zorak, from space ghost.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: obesebear on 2010-07-12 18:12:47
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-12 12:17:10
Check the post above you, pretty much proof he definately took stuff from the dissidia texture. He probably just traced the UV maps then, with his custom mesh.
By the way, uh, koraz, you haven't been round here before have you? You know, with like a different account maybe?
lol, I don't think she's coming back dude.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-07-12 18:16:18
Quote from: obesebear on 2010-07-12 18:12:47
lol, I don't think she's coming back dude.
Hay, I wuz just curious :P

Nevermind, koraz.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BloodShot on 2010-07-12 18:41:20
Now, the question is, will APZ actually log in and reply to this?

Maybe we could get some confirmation from the man himself, or maybe even a full confession of if it was ripped? Not for proof, but just for some credibility on his part.

EDIT: On the topic of being ripped, I just thought of this now, but look at how the eyes are in both textures, they are the same width and length. But on the model APZ's eyes look wider and more like the classic one. But if he wanted that and didn't rip it, why wouldn't he just make the eye texture the size he wants instead of stretching it out like that, that makes the pupils ovals and they don't look too good. Just another reason that It seems ripped.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-12 23:15:00
Has he been contacted about this?

He never posted in completely unrelated or in the Team Avalanche forum, and he hadn't been active for a long time before all of this came out. No one has posted in his threads either, so he won't have received any email notifications. It's possible that he's completely oblivious to all of this furore.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Bosola on 2010-07-12 23:29:39
He posted, but his posts were purged by Halkun.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: obesebear on 2010-07-12 23:47:55
Quote from: Bosola on 2010-07-12 23:29:39
He posted, but his posts were purged by Halkun.
When was this?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-13 05:40:23
Quote from: bloodshot on 2010-07-12 18:41:20
EDIT: On the topic of being ripped, I just thought of this now, but look at how the eyes are in both textures, they are the same width and length. But on the model APZ's eyes look wider and more like the classic one. But if he wanted that and didn't rip it, why wouldn't he just make the eye texture the size he wants instead of stretching it out like that, that makes the pupils ovals and they don't look too good. Just another reason that It seems ripped.

that would be in the uvs, and is likely just a choice he made artisticly.

Quote from: Bosola on 2010-07-12 23:29:39
He posted, but his posts were purged by Halkun.

Wouldn't i have gotten an email notification for new posts in that thread? i only ever got one for it being removed.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Millenia on 2010-07-13 08:27:53
Oh come on guys it's pretty damn ridiculous that some of you are still defending him and doubting if it is stolen or not - it's BLATANTLY obvious.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Clodus on 2010-07-13 08:39:38
So, what would happen if Apz were to just modify this Cloud and remake some of those textures?  Would that model still be accepted, or will that still be a no-go?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Millenia on 2010-07-13 09:20:21
If he replaced all the nicked parts with scratch-made ones then sure, but his reputation is certainly damaged..
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: halkun on 2010-07-13 11:32:06
We have another Cloud (and Barret) anyway. Also I just purged the download link for APZ Cloud.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: AcidDeath on 2010-07-13 12:25:07
does this mean the mods that use apz model will be removed as well? coz the apz model is in the remix patch so will remix patch be removed as well?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Clodus on 2010-07-13 13:20:21
I'm pretty sure they're gonna have the creator of those mods do something about it...

Either way, I'd love to see him make scratch made ones regardless of a ruined reputation or not.  It does sound nice having matching models from TA, though...
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-07-13 13:45:58
Oh yeah what will happen with the Remix patch?? It uses the Apz Cloud model right? Will the patch be considered illegal too?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Hellbringer616 on 2010-07-13 15:19:46
Quote from: nikfrozty on 2010-07-13 13:45:58
Oh yeah what will happen with the Remix patch?? It uses the Apz Cloud model right? Will the patch be considered illegal too?

I'm sure Titeguy will be notified and he will promptly remove the model from his Patch
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Furzball on 2010-07-13 17:59:19
If he doesn't come on for a long while to fix it would that allow one of us to fix and relink the model. So long as parts discussed are remade from scratch. And we give ApZ credit for the original model.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Clodus on 2010-07-13 23:10:58
Quote from: furzball on 2010-07-13 17:59:19
If he doesn't come on for a long while to fix it would that allow one of us to fix and relink the model. So long as parts discussed are remade from scratch. And we give ApZ credit for the original model.

Haha, I was thinking the same thing.  Let's just hope that if he doesn't work on it, he'll give someone the rights to...
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-07-14 05:20:59
So where is Apz?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Masa-Buster on 2010-07-14 05:52:03
If apz's profle is correct he hasn't been on since mid to late May, maybe he won't come back on for another few monthes? Who knows?

Correct me ifI'm wrong
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: willis936 on 2010-07-19 17:07:47
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-12 12:17:10
Check the post above you, pretty much proof he definately took stuff from the dissidia texture. He probably just traced the UV maps then, with his custom mesh.
By the way, uh, koraz, you haven't been round here before have you? You know, with like a different account maybe?
Now there's an interesting thought.
I mean we've all seen his work firsthand, there's no shortage of talent in him.  Look at what he's done for non-FFVII work.  It's not like he couldn't UV a face and make it look amazing.  It's just as likely someone at a company took part of a mod that's all over the internet than it is that he went through the trouble of ripping a japanese demo rather than just make it himself.

Conclusions should NOT be come to before he comes out with a statement but at the same time it's important to keep this site out of dodge so until this is sorted out there shouldn't be any sharing of his work here.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-19 17:11:54
Quote from: willis936 on 2010-07-19 17:07:47
Now there's an interesting thought.
I mean we've all seen his work firsthand, there's no shortage of talent in him.  Look at what he's done for non-FFVII work.  It's not like he couldn't UV a face and make it look amazing.  It's just as likely someone at a company took part of a mod that's all over the internet than it is that he went through the trouble of ripping a japanese demo rather than just make it himself.

Unless Squeenix have a time machine, that's very unlikely. I mean, surely there were demos out of Dissidia that had Cloud's texture in them before Apz released the mod? And the chances are that Cloud's model was finished long before the game was released or even the demos.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: obesebear on 2010-07-19 17:29:04
Quote from: willis936 on 2010-07-19 17:07:47
Conclusions should NOT be come to before he comes out with a statement but at the same time it's important to keep this site out of dodge so until this is sorted out there shouldn't be any sharing of his work here.

Quote from: apz freak on 2009-05-18 01:39:11
Although shamefully I admit that I borrowed heavily from the Dissidia models. I at least have it in my conscience that I built it up polygon by polygon. I know, shameful!  :|
Really, what else is there to say?  The face texture IS from Dissidia.  Even if APZ comes and posts in this thread, there's nothing for him to say because he's already said it.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: willis936 on 2010-07-19 18:17:38
Ah, I hadn't seen that.
Also that's a good point I guess I got caught up in conspiracy theories rather than keeping the process of creating a game in mind.

Well this all well and unfortunate but I think he should just make his own UV and try to clear some muck off his great name.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Clodus on 2010-07-23 13:14:31
Don't mean to necro, but has anyone gotten in contact with Apz? And the suggestion of actually reworking those meshes, is that being considered or no? I realize Millenia's working on their model, but it'd be a bit of a waste to see this model go to waste.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-24 03:16:30
Does anyone know whether the sword was ripped as well? It looked a lot like the CC sword, and I don't have the textures at hand to check.

Quote from: Clodus on 2010-07-23 13:14:31
Don't mean to necro

The thread was only a few days old! That's not a necro! ;D

Necros at qhimm usually mean that the thread hasn't been posted in for over a month.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Mendelevium on 2010-07-24 03:43:58
Apz Tex:
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac4/Mendelevium1/apzbuster.png)

Crisis Core:
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac4/Mendelevium1/02168_raw_TEX_0.png)
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-24 04:38:01
looks safe to me, if halkun approves, someone should make a zip of the sword only for rerelease.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Clodus on 2010-07-24 08:25:35
Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-24 03:16:30
Does anyone know whether the sword was ripped as well? It looked a lot like the CC sword, and I don't have the textures at hand to check.

Quote from: Clodus on 2010-07-23 13:14:31
Don't mean to necro

The thread was only a few days old! That's not a necro! ;D

Necros at qhimm usually mean that the thread hasn't been posted in for over a month.

Haha, I'll take note of that XD

It would be cool to have any kind of "switch" between the TA and Apz Buster Sword. I swear the tip of the blade looks a little iffy, though...
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-07-24 12:27:14
This still bothers me. How come it is only now that it has been noticed that Apz model of Cloud has a ripped part? Does this mean Squaresoft/Square-Enix is not checking the models being done now here in the qhimms?
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-24 16:30:14
i highly doubt square regularly checks our models. and it is only now that we checked apz's model.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-07-24 17:19:46
But Apz model is already years old right? So I think Square didn't even check it at all. They're too busy making ff14.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-07-24 17:40:48
what i mean is they have better things to do then rip up our models
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: weeemus on 2010-08-14 09:11:32
If I remember Correctly, didn't APZ release the model before Dissadia was out. And once Dissadia and the ripping tools were made. He decided to update the head and hair soon after. Then saying he made the head look similar in between to dissadia and advent children cloud? Correct me if I'm wrong.

But i wouldn't know since I haven't inspected any models or let alone downloaded the apz model.
Title: APZ SPEAKS
Post by: apz freak on 2010-11-02 10:32:55
~*APZ SPEAKS!!!*~

Humorously, Know that as I write this I got my newborn son in my lap  :-D Necro posting I guess but I think you guys want to read this.

Quote from: bloodshot on 2010-07-12 18:41:20
Now, the question is, will APZ actually log in and reply to this?

Maybe we could get some confirmation from the man himself, or maybe even a full confession of if it was ripped? Not for proof, but just for some credibility on his part.
Quote
As for the head mesh, maybe it's original, but I wouldn't really bet on it given all the similarities. Definitively not a "legit" model, anyway.

I'm speechless. I had no idea that this tiny project would mean so much to so many people. So I'm a fallen hero now huh?  :? Really? I was ANYBODY's idol at all!? I never could understand just how popular this model became, because, well... i just wasn't that interested in this community, no offense. Understand how surreal this all is to me.


Well you guys want an explanation now I suppose:


Here's the answer: The mesh is 100% mine. The sword, hair, and body texture are mine. However since you guys are as analytical as I am, there's no way for me to bs the texture of the face away. It is obviously a lazy attempt on my part. I was having a problem with painting it, a poor excuse. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I RIPPED ANY PART OF THE MODEL AND PUT IT ON MINE. What I modeled, I modeled myself using the other as a guide. THE TEXTURE OF THE FACE AND EYES IS THE ONLY THING I DIDN'T CREATE.

That's the absolute truth. There is no "completely ripped" I copied and pasted and color corrected the texture for the face. THAT'S IT! Not counting the face texture, it's otherwise a completely unique creation. If the original thread is still there you can watch the progress of the model from scratch. The model was 100% box modeled by me. (And nobody had ripped anything out of Crisis Core when I made the buster sword and I based the blade on screenshots released before the game came out  :-P )

I guess you could say the crappy excuse that I told myself was that the texture it's self is not supposed to be viewed. If you guys didn't have access to the texture you wouldn't have been able to tell. Infact, if you ask people who work in television broadcast, they do things like this all the time (As a student at the Art Institute of Austin my professors are all professionals from the industry) The reason being that the END product (the complete model not it's isolated parts) is not an exact copy of the source. This is called Fair Use. But it's a large grey area


THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY WHAT I DID. You guys are absolutely right and that small act of vandalism was wrong. But if you want an honest explanation of why. That's was it. That and laziness.

Quote
As to everyone's idol being shattered, i get you. I got inspired by him too, in fact he got me into ff7 modeling/modding. although mildly shocking, this event should not shake the faith of any of you. whats important is the inspiration you got, and that you keep using it. If you got a jumpstart by being inspired by apz, its in you now to do stuff, don't need apz to hold yer hand :-P .

What he did isnt a huge deal, just doesnt conform with qhimm rules. learning from pros like Square is a great thing to do, and i've gotten much better by studying their textures and models.

Thanks Timu  ;-) You hit the nail on the head. Couldn't have said it better without several paragraphs if I tried  :-D

Quote
If he replaced all the nicked parts with scratch-made ones then sure, but his reputation is certainly damaged..

I never thought of myself as an idol, because quite frankly I made this model purely for my own selfish reasons, even though I like to share. Actually I'm quite glad that the old model is gone! I've never been particularly proud of copying that texture, and that's why I several times promised that i would re-do it so that I could make a new one before anyone find out!  ;D ;D ;D ;D Well it's too late for that now, oh well! Life, horrible family tragedy, depression, a full time job (Not anymore...  >:( ) , full time school, I'm a 3D texture and modeling tutor now. All that just got in the way of me wanting to have anything to do with this place. Or to my mistakes I made here. Guilty! I now live in a 4 bedroom house with 15 people living in it and I make 800~900 dollars a month and no one will hire me because of my school hours, and I'm getting by just fine. I completely understand if no one believes this (That's the same guy who ripped stuff after all) But i swear to you by everything that's holy it's the complete honest truth.


~*However*~

Now that it has come to this, I can offer several solutions:

1) I just repaint the face and everybody's happy (even though my shattered reputation is irreversibly damaged  ;-) And that's supposed to upset me )

2) I finally get up off my Arse and do what I kept saying I was gonna do and kept putting it off and make A NEW CLOUD with everything I've learned since I've been at school. Seriously though, I've learned so much about keeping uv's cleaner and edge deformation, all kinds of better cool goodies. I think this might just be the push to get me to do it. Actually, I think I'm starting to become excited about it again!!!

3) "We hate you now APZ because you lied to us, you broke our hearts, please go away and die, we don't want anything from you at all!"

Or even 4) Both 1 and 2 if people love that model that much.

It'd certainly make me happier.

I may never again regain you guys respect. But understand that this just isn't that big of a deal to me. This was a stepping stone I used to teach myself more about modeling and texturing. This was the first time I modeled a character in it's entirety. It's in the past for me, I've moved on, I've learned, I've gotten better. It's my take on a copyrighted character, it's not something I made for profit, I'm not emotionally attached to it. If you want to continue to disregard anything I post after discovering I copied a single texture, that's entirely up to you.

Bottom Line is that I was sorry when I copied the face texture, I was wrong, but other than that it is still my creation entirely. And that I'm not gonna cry over spilled model when what I really would want is to scrap it and start over anyways. And move on

On the bright side: I'm a daddy now, and I'm excelling at the Art Institute of Austin (No I don't rip off anything at school  ;-) )

Check out my temporary portfolio I haven't gotten around to stuffing: http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/Portfolio/ (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/Portfolio/)

and this AWESOME (yet incredibly flawed and unfinished) video I made and animated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XxnF5zvXmk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XxnF5zvXmk)

And I made that from conception to completion in 11 weeks. 100% content made by me, even the sfx and music (That's me playing guitar)

Here's my latest creation, same idea I had with Cloud only Doom: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=128461210540511 (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=128461210540511)
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-11-02 10:56:53
Thanks for coming back and speaking about this Apz. Personally I do not care that you used parts of other games for your model since everything else was done so well. Unfortunately because of this it cannot be made available here, but that doesn't stop people from getting it elsewhere. Also congrats on being a father, I just became one a little over a week ago and I must say it is amazing. Nice work in your portfolio.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Costa07 on 2010-11-02 11:01:44
Wow nice portfolio and like timu said in the past not a big deal. People make make mistakes it natural for use. All u can do is get back on your feet and keep on going. Them models in your portfolio look great i can see your skill have got really good.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: apz freak on 2010-11-02 12:09:58
Thanks guys! I'm actually used to a combination of bizarre immaturity and intense grudges in the rare instances I've entered the mod world. I thank ALL of you guys even the ones who are disappointed in me for your openness and willingness to discuss things as adults.


Once that model became way too popular I became annoyed, not necessarily at the people, I understood that it was love, the same love that I made him with. But just annoyed at the responsibility of something that I didn't really care that much about. That and a full pm box once a month for almost a year straight... "Can you send me this?" "Can you send me your first version of the model?" "Can I have the Sephiroth you ripped and edited?" You can only answer "NO" so many time before you lose all enthusiasm and just don't want to respond anymore.

I really and honestly don't care if I ever see that old Cloud again. (I tried opening it up and was quite frankly horrified!  ;D ) I realize it was very important in inspiring many people to join this community and participate in it. Don't think I don't appreciate what that means to people. But I think everything would be better if we just move on, let it stay dead, I don't want to resurrect that thing. I hear some people here have already blown me away!  8) Well good, I'm glad that other people are taking the stage to broadcast their talent and learning more skills, THAT'S What I'm all about! If you guys don't mind, the board has changed so much it'll be hard for me to surf through it all, would you mind pointing me towards these other project threads? I'd appreciate it!  ;)

(Ask anyone who's talked extensively with me in the past, you know that this is what I'm about! That... and getting sidetracked  8) )

It was only after posting this that I remembered that I originally laid it into the texture as a base temp to quickly check the face I modeled. (Professionals do this all the time, but only as a temp) But I don't recall anything more than that, I remember rationalizing with myself as to why I'm keeping it in there. ("It's only gonna be in the texture nobody's looking at, if someone's gonna look and call me out it'll happen within a month or so") Surprise~! I'm sure I tried to paint my own but just got frustrated. That's probably what happened.

And again. If you guys can't find it in your heart to forgive me. Just allow me to warmly say, We're all Human, We all make stupid mistakes (On purpose sometimes)

AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaand. Anything I contribute to this community NOW will be 10 times more AWESOME than that old model!
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: Costa07 on 2010-11-02 12:26:20
Sweet glad to hear your back on board cant wait to see a 10 times better model.

Edit: Oh and the main projects now is still Team Avalanche and there also a menu and battle menu mod out there that is kinda nice.
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: apz freak on 2010-11-02 12:46:37
I have no bones about making the buster sword available again if you guys really want it.


Of course... Once I make a better Cloud I'll make a better buster sword! That just goes without saying  ;) Although I don't think I'll ever match Millenia's texture painting mad skills, he truly just plain beats the crap outta me in that department ;D
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-11-02 16:55:16
WOW Apz is alive! Nice to finally get things cleared. :)
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: drfeelgud88 on 2010-11-05 00:31:11
Hm, I never saw you as a "fake" or a "liar" at all APZ.

People shouldn't have abandoned their admiration/determination to the work you have pulled; which then they would use and become modelers/texturers themselves. I don't really recall anyone saying exactly this, but if they did, shame on them. It is as someone stated it earlier -- you can't be holding their hand while they are doing what they are doing.

But it is nice of you to come post, and make things clear and make things right for everyone, and that you simply didn't just put "Well you don't like my work? Well too bad, I did this and that, you don't have to use it... etc." The fact that you say you are going to make an even better one, well, I'm just going to have to keep my eyes peeled then. Awesome sauce! I wish you the best of luck.  :D
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: apz freak on 2010-11-06 10:55:31
Quote from: Gemini on 2010-07-10 08:48:37
Am I the only one who noticed APZ's Cloud's face being ripped straight from Dissidia? :?
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-10 10:31:44
You mean just like it wasn't?
I dunno, definately doesn't look like it to me. It's similar, but not identical.
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-10 12:09:40
Ugh, you're right, he Just shopped it. And to think, it was Apz that inspired me to start original creations...

EDIT: I've just been informed that dissidia was released after Apz released his model.
xD maybe Square stole it off him? Or maybe he actually works for SE, and was the artist of that texture sheet anyway. I highly doubt either of those, though D:
Also, this is super off-topic (Although it is pretty important :P)
Quote from: halkun on 2010-07-10 12:11:09
Purged...  >:(
Quote from: nikfrozty on 2010-07-10 12:15:47
Wow you're right! I feel sad.. I thought Apz as a great 3d artist. Is it only the head that is identical?
Quote from: NCS on 2010-07-10 12:26:07
Quote from: halkun on 2010-07-10 12:11:09
Purged...  >:(
"Original Content means not swiping UVs either."

It's more than likely he stole the textures too, and just shopped 'em. just sayin'.
...It doesn't feel good to 'grass up' Apz at all D:

Quote from: halkun on 2010-07-10 12:29:50
I was looking at his "in work" models. I compared  the in work head with the final product. He ripped the head and moved the vertexes around to make it "different enough" I did it too when I was learning to model. None of these seen the light of day.

Oh well, he have a new cloud that we can work on and make better!

Quote from: weeemus on 2010-07-10 12:40:57
Quote
I compared  the in work head with the final product. He ripped the head and moved the vertexes around to make it "different enough"

Not cool, not cool at all Apz.


No, I had/have people thinking that I ripped and photoshopped the whole thing  :) In fact I wouldn't be surprised these folks are still upset at me! Honestly it doesn't really bother me though... Both amusing and slightly tiresome to me. But I feel obligated to explain myself seeing as to how upset and crestfallen it made everyone. I'll admit my laziness and the sad excuse that at the time... People were routinely posting downloads to entire characters ripped out of other games. The rules came down like a hammer AFTER my model was mostly underway, and well... That's about the time when I lost interest in this place and couldn't be buggered to care if "my dirty little secret" were to get out. My evil was the lesser evil, though perhaps more so that I never elaborated my transgressions, I did mention them in passing however once or twice, and mention was made of that in this thread.

But I will state that I DID NOT JUST COPY THE POLYGONS OF THE DISSIDIA MODEL I DID however meticulously model it polygon by polygon (Starting with a single flat polygon using edge extrude and bridge) to reflect the same mesh, this isn't the same as copy and paste. It's like copying/replicating a master painting and measuring everything to get the exact proportions and colors. This is actually something slightly embarrassing to admit, and difficult to explain without sounding like I just copied and pasted it. but I felt that it was a great learning device and I obviously earned a greater control of my edge and polygon skills.

And as for the "Different enough" comment...  8) I was trying to match this picture:
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/th_allfixed.jpg) (http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/apz_freak/allfixed.jpg) Because Nomura said that for Advent Children they created a new interpretation of Cloud's Hair, and that even within this interpretation Cloud's hair is now pointed back more. And that for those photo's  and Cinematics in Advent Children of Classic FFVII era Cloud, they pulled his hair to point more forward like it did originally. What I was trying to do was to see what this looks like with the new interpretation but still Anime styled. It was a very specific thing I was going for.

But why should you believe me? I'm a liar and a thief after all right?  :) I just ripped the entire model and all the textures from various games and combined it all and didn't really do any hard work, right? (I like being dramatic because well... Reading all you guys getting mad sounded so dramatic to me, I'm sorry if that's funny to me  ::) ) Please don't quote this paragraph out of context

Actually as soon as I found out about this, I had to open up to file and compare for myself, and I was like "I'll be damned!" I really DID just copy the face texture! I always knew I left work in there that wasn't mine, but I had forgotten how blatant it was! Infact even though copying it left a bitter taste in my mouth, I seriously didn't remember clearly if I ever got around to painting my own face. I guess I didn't... That's just goes to show you how far I've come from then. That was my first ever complete character and now I've topped it off somewhere near a dozen. I can do WAY better now!


(And if you're surprised as to why I've been posting so much  8) There's not much else you can do with a baby in your lap who won't go to sleep in the middle of the night except type about stuff, I can't really work can I?) And now you ask yourself... If he doesn't feel so bad why's he typing so much? The answer is that I can't stand to be misunderstood. I have a constant need to be understood. People who deal with me in person call it mild "Aspergers", but I'm inclined not to believe it. I choose to believe that I just had very poor social skills until I became an adult and LEARNED to overcome it by studying people constantly and acting and speech giving communication classes helped. More than you ever wanted to know about me, I'm sure. I mean... Nobody really care's about my issues and I don't expect you to. But if this much expectation and dissapointment is going to be leveled on me, I like to be understood. And it's the internet! Someone will read it

edit: Fear not, this will be the LAST time I speak about this again, so I wanted to get it all out and erase anyone's doubts for good, cover all the bases as best as I can. I don't want to talk about it anymore, but I wanted to clear the air

And so I ask you NCS, Halkun, and Weemus. Do you forgive me? 
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: DLPB_ on 2010-11-06 12:15:35
I really couldn't care less.  I liked your model and if I wanted to use it, I would :)  8)
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-11-06 14:45:09
Hey, no worries Apz, I'm just glad you're back ;D You really inspired me, and inspiration I get to this day is still from you! So, at the time it seemed more shocking to me than it really was - I probably would have done the same thing, or worse, just given up!

...Still waiting on that Cloud field model you tempted us with though xD
I know you probably don't have it still, but I checked every day for like a year in that thread just to see if it would ever be finished  :-P I look forward to future work

Oh, there is one thing I'd like to ask you about, but I'll PM you about it.   :-P
Title: Re: The 'Apz may have stolen part of his Cloud model' thread
Post by: apz freak on 2010-11-10 17:17:06
It never ceases to amaze me just how popular this model I made was. I honsetly never dreamed that it would get this big. By just doing a google search I pulled it up in many other websites for download, all uploaded without my permission (Though to be fair, I never said people couldn't distribute my model, I have no right to complain)

But as it is, if I want it to disapear, it looks like I'm gonna have to go through the trouble of contacting all these sites and asking them to take the model down. A few of them, I think I'll hang onto and offer the better one that I'm making like www.models-resource.com

I guess with this much popularity comes responsiblility. It's embarrassing really  :-\ I was caught with my pants down and my fly open talking with my mouth full, so to speak. I only consented to my laziness because I thought it'd stay contained within the confines of this message board.

Well..... Might as well give them what they want! (But only because it's what I want  ;)  I'm a thoughtful yet selfish artist after all)