Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f] (Read 3028995 times)

Shasta McNasty · « **Reply #2475 on:** 2016-01-14 18:08:29 »

Quote

By the way, if anyone else wants to make this personal and call me a d*ck because I disagree with your position, by all means have at it. I won't apologize for attempting to present a sound, logically-consistent argument supported by evidence.

That's fine to do, you were just being rude about it. Knock it off, hair trigger. Not that big of a deal.

lionheart82 · « **Reply #2476 on:** 2016-01-14 18:42:06 »

Ill just chip in as non US/UK english speaker, ive also never heard of lump it expression and could only get the meaning after reading or not alternative. Though i heard under the weather frase, lump it is strange and awkward sounding with me. But as was mentioned its not worth making a big deal, if it's one tiny phrase in the whole game, just go along with it or use toughscript to adjust it to your liking, like i will for rising blade climbing hazzard disaster.

Hyperthesis · « **Reply #2477 on:** 2016-01-14 19:33:54 »

Quote from: Shasta McNasty on 2016-01-14 18:08:29

That's fine to do, you were just being rude about it. Knock it off, hair trigger. Not that big of a deal.

If you'd like send me a PM and point out which part of my post was "rude" - in a way that does not involve name-calling (like you're still doing, by the way) - I'd be more than willing to listen and have a real conversation. Otherwise, drop it. This whole issue is petty and does not belong in this thread.

Quote from: lionheart82 on 2016-01-14 18:42:06

Ill just chip in as non US/UK english speaker, ive also never heard of lump it expression and could only get the meaning after reading or not alternative. Though i heard under the weather frase, lump it is strange and awkward sounding with me. But as was mentioned its not worth making a big deal, if it's one tiny phrase in the whole game, just go along with it or use toughscript to adjust it to your liking, like i will for rising blade climbing hazzard disaster.

I understand where you are coming from, and I consider this "like it or lump it" business to be lumped. However, I bet 1,000,000 gil that more lines of dialogue will be contested in the near future. With that in mind, it's important we realize idioms and colloquialisms vary considerably depending on which dialect of English one speaks and - perhaps more importantly - where one lives geographically. In my neck of the woods (← another goofy idiom), we call drinking fountains "bubblers." If you live anywhere else in the U.S., this makes no sense, and you'd probably live your entire life without hearing them called that. Likewise, some of the southern States refer to soft drinks as "pop" rather than "soda." Neither one is objectively wrong, but as a northerner, "pop" just sounds awkward.

My position is that expressions such as these shouldn't be discounted simply because they're not in common usage in the region one resides. Quite the contrary: preserving odd-sounding speech really breathes some extra life and culture into otherwise flat, cookie-cutter characters. Just look how much more interesting Reeve's parents are after DLPB restored their Scottish accents. Now imagine running into a host at Gold Saucer that uses the word "bubbler" or an inn-keeper in Niblheim that says "pop." How delightfully foreign-sounding! You certainly wouldn't confuse them with NPCs from Midgar, and I think that's the whole point. While the dialogue should definitely maintain a sense of normalcy, so that it's understood by the greatest number of players possible, there is plenty of room for nuance and eccentricity.

(I'm not seriously suggesting adding "bubbler" or "pop" to the script, by the way, but you know what I mean.)

lionheart82 · « **Reply #2478 on:** 2016-01-14 19:46:46 »

Hmmm you do have a point, cait sith sounds refreshing even after basic rerun, wo reunion beacause touch. Oh and as for money, lemme check my wallet... How bout 50k upfront and the rest in payments?

White Wind · « **Reply #2479 on:** 2016-01-14 20:11:01 »

Okay, this will be my last post about non-dialogue, I promise. I know you said 100 times we don't discuss blue and yellow entries, but I have things to say:

- In the non-dialogue sheet there is one battle dialogue line, I always wondered what it's doing there. But well,
it's Palmer "Ugh!"
In other battle dialogues, is there the name in front of the spoken text too?
If yes and so if "Palmer" is to stay, I think the line should then be Palmer: "Ugh!" with a colon, and there should always be one after a name before the spoken text in battle dialogue lines.

- Shin-Ra Frogman: Lit. Shin-Ra Diving Soldier, but he is not meant to dive by himself but with a vehicle, so I find frogman to be out of place. Those guys have no tuba, no flippers, they're meant to maneuver submarines (we even see them do so) that's how they dive.
Shin-Ra Submariner is the way to go I think.

- Fury 2: I know the "2" is there in Japanese, but Fura would be consistent with the spell naming scheme already in place.

- Zax's Home: Shouldn't it be spelt Zax' Home ? (you know better than me, I'm just asking if a mistake slipped through)

- Rebirth Sephiroth: Wouldn't Sephiroth Rebirth be better, like for Jenova Birth, Jenova Life, Jenova Death ?

- Bar: Turtle Lounge, that just looks and reads weird. Why not simply "Turtle Lounge Bar" or "The Turtle Lounge Bar"? Or maybe at least "Bar: The Turtle Lounge".
Same thing for Pub: Starlet --> "Starlet Pub" / "The Starlet Pub" / "Pub: The Starlet".
And "(The) Turtle Lounge Bar" "(The) Starlet Pub" would be more in line with Shin-Ra Members' Bar.

- Revised Armour and Cheap Armour: I feel these as missed opportunities to have "Shin-Ra" in the name of armours we can wear, which would be cool. I'm aware of the space limit, but if we change "Armour" into "Gear", would there be enough space for "Shin-Ra" to be reinstated?
And Cheap Armour... that sounds like crap, you'd think that is leather or iron, never something that is more resistant than mithril and carbon. But if it is a cheap Shin-Ra gear, then the meaning/ the feel is not the same anymore, it becomes credible it is more resistant than mithril and carbon (because you're told Shin-Ra make them).
And Revised Armour.. revised from what? Sounds weird too without "Shin-Ra".

Now the following are mere suggestions you can ignore, not better than your choices, just there for you to see:

- Extreme Lifeform Hojo NA: I had read somewhere that the idea here is that Hojo's form has like reached the boundaries of Life. Then shouldn't it be more "Extreme-Life Form", as in form of the extreme of Life, rather than "Extreme Lifeform" as in lifeform that went extreme?
- Hundred Gunner --> Hectogunner ? More in phase with Heligunner, the other guy from the same boss fight.
- Firebomb: I'm wondering if Fire Bomb wouldn't do a better job. Is a firebomb something that exists?
- Grangaran --> Grangranny ?
- Twin Brain --> Siamese Brain, Siamese Brains ?
- Share --> Swap ?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2480 on:** 2016-01-14 20:20:49 »

You're welcome to put that out there, but I really meant it when I said I would not discuss it

They're final.

And I have discussed every one of them at length - even Zax's. The convention there is that X ending names still need the S.

On dialogue in battle, I didn't add a colon because the general dialogue boxes don't. It's pretty obvious they're speaking regardless... and it's in the message bar. It's not a subtitle.

White Wind · « **Reply #2481 on:** 2016-01-14 20:36:20 »

Okay no problem ^_^ Knowing you've already discussed them and thought about the alternatives is all it takes to put my mind at ease really

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2482 on:** 2016-01-14 20:38:44 »

The reason Frogman is called Frogman despite having no gear is because that's the fault of the animation department. FF7 reuses models to save money. Those guys should be totally different models.

White Wind · « **Reply #2483 on:** 2016-01-14 20:53:57 »

Oww, haha okay!

Well, indeed, every word has its reason and you know better. Always had confidence in what you're doing.

obesebear · « **Reply #2484 on:** 2016-01-15 00:52:36 »

I want to leave a final word on "like it or lump it"

It reminds me of "dilly dally shilly shally". While it may be a phrase said in some places around the world, general consensus is that it could have been better localized.

Lilpuddy31 · « **Reply #2485 on:** 2016-01-15 01:04:01 »

The final word was given by DLPB himself earlier, and he says that it is staying as is. Why do people insist on still bringing it back up?!?

WatashiWaZero · « **Reply #2486 on:** 2016-01-15 03:26:16 »

During the flashback at Kalm, at the materia spring, Cloud says:

"Now you mention it...
...
..."

Should be: "Now that you mention/mentioned it..."

Edit#1:
Also, you made materia singular while materias plural correct?
With that being said, Sephiroth says:

"The knowledge of the Ancients is sealed inside materia."

Shouldn't it be:

"The knowledge of the Ancients is sealed inside the materia."

Edit#2:
Inside the reactor, Sephiroth says:

"Am I... no different to these monsters?"

Should be:

"Am I... no different from these monsters?"

Edit#3:
Sephiroth going crazy:

"...., and gave back not one whit in return!"

The word "whit" doesn't seem to be a commonly used word here, not to my knowledge anyway. If anything, I've heard "iota" being used more often than "whit".
But the most common phrase I can think of is:

"gave back nothing in return!" (obviously)

I don't see Sephiroth as a very articulate person to use "whit". In the end, he IS a frontline Soldier who does dirty work for Shin-Ra.

Edit#4:
"A 2000 year-old Ancient,"

Should be:

"A 2000-year-old Ancient," (missing a dash)

White Wind · « **Reply #2487 on:** 2016-01-15 03:41:15 »

"inside materia", I understand it as being generic, like in "Energy lies in meat" or "Strength lies in wisdom"

WatashiWaZero · « **Reply #2488 on:** 2016-01-15 03:53:23 »

Quote from: White Wind on 2016-01-15 03:41:15

"inside materia", I understand it as being generic, like in "Energy lies in meat" or "Strength lies in wisdom"

I figured that as much, but I was thrown off because Dan chose to have a different plural form of the word. I was assuming materia could be used as both singular and plural depending on the context; similar to fish.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2489 on:** 2016-01-15 07:30:23 »

Quote

I want to leave a final word on "like it or lump it"

It reminds me of "dilly dally shilly shally". While it may be a phrase said in some places around the world, general consensus is that it could have been better localized.

I wouldn't class those two entries anywhere near the same. 1. Dilly dilly shilly shally is not an idiom. 2. It's a totally made up phrase - and also totally nonsensical. 3. It isn't used anywhere by anyone. 4. It also didn't fit the original Japanese meaning at all.

If there had been a consensus that this wasn't used in America, I'd have added it to the option list. But it's definitely known in parts of America - and it's an established idiom from the 1800s. In my view removing this because a number of people haven't heard of it will lead to numerous other changes - all of which will dilute the localization for very little gain. This isn't a main character using this phrase - it's a disgruntled town NPC.

@WatashiWaZero

Materia is both plural and singular. Like diamond.

None of those are errors. They're perfectly acceptable English / grammar, apart from "1000-year-old", which you may have a point on.

Moreover, I don't need any grammar check (unless the sentence is broken, like "Hi, what are for you doing"). There's going to be a lot of changes to it as I walk through the game finalizing part by part. I only need spelling mistakes or words that do not work in US because of differences to Britain. I appreciate the desire for everyone to help, but the vast majority of the bug reports in the last few pages have been localization choices—most of them discussed at length beforehand.

Also note that characters do not need to use perfect English. In every day life, our speech is even worse. No-one uses "that" to join words all the time. In fact, it's omitted most of the time unless a person is being very formal.

Hyperthesis · « **Reply #2490 on:** 2016-01-15 13:14:33 »

I found an animation bug with Hojo (may be old, may not be limited to him): in Shinra HQ, Hojo's field model jitters up and down as he moves, almost as if he momentarily levitates. It's most pronounced in the board room when he walks toward the camera, and in the laboratory when he's on the walkway facing the test chamber. Not sure if anything can be done to fix this, but I figured it was worth a mention.

White Wind · « **Reply #2491 on:** 2016-01-15 17:45:05 »

(I'm not discussing anything :p)
but just saying, in my copy I'll set Shin-Ra Armour or Shin-Ra Protection, and Shin-Ra Armour V.2 / Shin-Ra Protection V.2 (will see what space can allow, maybe Gear if I have to).
I just prefer being told that Shin-Ra make them rather than the former is cheap.
will be the only change

Hey now that I think of it (that's not related to The Reunion) that'd be cool if Cloud was equipped with a cheap Shin-Ra armour during the flashback (I'll fiddle with that). /off-topic off

WatashiWaZero · « **Reply #2492 on:** 2016-01-15 20:07:57 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2016-01-15 07:30:23

I wouldn't class those two entries anywhere near the same. 1. Dilly dilly shilly shally is not an idiom. 2. It's a totally made up phrase - and also totally nonsensical. 3. It isn't used anywhere by anyone. 4. It also didn't fit the original Japanese meaning at all.

If there had been a consensus that this wasn't used in America, I'd have added it to the option list. But it's definitely known in parts of America - and it's an established idiom from the 1800s. In my view removing this because a number of people haven't heard of it will lead to numerous other changes - all of which will dilute the localization for very little gain. This isn't a main character using this phrase - it's a disgruntled town NPC.

@WatashiWaZero

Materia is both plural and singular. Like diamond.

None of those are errors. They're perfectly acceptable English / grammar, apart from "1000-year-old", which you may have a point on.

Moreover, I don't need any grammar check (unless the sentence is broken, like "Hi, what are for you doing"). There's going to be a lot of changes to it as I walk through the game finalizing part by part. I only need spelling mistakes or words that do not work in US because of differences to Britain. I appreciate the desire for everyone to help, but the vast majority of the bug reports in the last few pages have been localization choices—most of them discussed at length beforehand.

Also note that characters do not need to use perfect English. In every day life, our speech is even worse. No-one uses "that" to join words all the time. In fact, it's omitted most of the time unless a person is being very formal.

That's why I'm asking you to recheck Sephiroth's dialogue during that scene. At one point, he uses the word "materias" when I thought you had already decided to go with a single, interchangeable word, materia.

White Wind · « **Reply #2493 on:** 2016-01-15 21:55:40 »

Quote from: WatashiWaZero on 2016-01-15 20:07:57

That's why I'm asking you to recheck Sephiroth's dialogue during that scene. At one point, he uses the word "materias" when I thought you had already decided to go with a single, interchangeable word, materia.

I think what Dan is saying is that there are two words: materia for single, and materias for plural. In his relocalization materia is treated as the word "diamond". One diamond, Two diamonds, Diamond is unbreakable.. So having materia and materias in the same speech is possible and is not an error.

Hyperthesis · « **Reply #2494 on:** 2016-01-15 23:26:56 »

Quote from: WatashiWaZero on 2016-01-15 03:26:16

I don't see Sephiroth as a very articulate person to use "whit". In the end, he IS a frontline Soldier who does dirty work for Shin-Ra.

Really? I always found Sephiroth to be quite articulate. I mean, who else calls people "inferior dullards"?

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2495 on:** 2016-01-16 12:59:40 »

Sephiroth is absolutely more refined than most of your normal characters. I restored the "whit" from the PSX version text and modified the sentence a little. It absolutely works there and again is better than having a flat, dull sentence for a character who is anything but.

@White Wind Exactly. Diamond is unbreakable. Diamonds are unbreakable. Materia is unbreakable. Materias are unbreakable.

I like diamond. I like materia.
I like diamonds. I like materias.
I have lots of diamond. I have lots of materia.
I have a lot of diamonds. I have a lot of materias.

And so on. It was a localization choice I made to be flexible - because it is used in so many sentences. And then you have "Huge Materia" "Huge Materias"

"The knowledge of the Ancients is sealed inside materia."

Is more correct, because here it is specific to the substance.

"The knowledge of the Ancients is sealed inside diamond."

Or you could modify to "The knowledge of the Ancients is sealed inside materias" to note that the knowledge is sealed multiple pieces of materia. But... it works either way. Adding "the materia" may work just as well. But there isn't really a right or wrong that I can see here. That's the beauty of making it flexible.

DLPB_ · « **Reply #2496 on:** 2016-01-16 13:33:02 »

In other news... I am working through Kaldarasha's flevel fixes and adding where appropriate. May take some time....

White Wind · « **Reply #2497 on:** 2016-01-16 17:03:26 »

Quote from: DLPB on 2016-01-16 13:33:02

In other news... I am working through Kaldarasha's flevel fixes and adding where appropriate. May take some time....

Nice!!

deep38 · « **Reply #2498 on:** 2016-01-16 19:18:43 »

Hey I didn't see this in the bugreport or in this thread by quickly scanning through the pages, so I found this bug a bit weird.
A couple of times after winning a battle or doing something random in world map or just running around and maybe pressing a couple of buttons fast, the game starts to run at twice the speed. This is fixable by just restarting the game, but other than that I haven't found how to get rid of it. It doubles the speed of running around and the battle, but the options work normally. I don't remember if the clock still runs at the same speed or if it's doubled as well. This has happened twice or thrice in my about 25 hours of gameplay, and I'm only using a clean installs of Steam version and reunion.

Sorry if this is a known bug. Thanks for the awesome mod!

White Wind · « **Reply #2499 on:** 2016-01-16 20:18:55 »

Quote from: deep38 on 2016-01-16 19:18:43

Hey I didn't see this in the bugreport or in this thread by quickly scanning through the pages, so I found this bug a bit weird.
A couple of times after winning a battle or doing something random in world map or just running around and maybe pressing a couple of buttons fast, the game starts to run at twice the speed. This is fixable by just restarting the game, but other than that I haven't found how to get rid of it. It doubles the speed of running around and the battle, but the options work normally. I don't remember if the clock still runs at the same speed or if it's doubled as well. This has happened twice or thrice in my about 25 hours of gameplay, and I'm only using a clean installs of Steam version and reunion.

Sorry if this is a known bug. Thanks for the awesome mod!

Select + Up increases the game speed and Select + Down decreases it, that's an option in the 60FPS Battles mod. Looks like it's what's happening to you, unless you can confirm it's not.