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Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chocobo_Girl on 2010-06-19 16:53:57
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http://squallsdead.com/
Squall dies at the end of disc 1 when he gets skewered by Edea's magic icicle thing.
At first I lol'd. Then I realized it all made sense in the end. After reading the whole thing it just all added up. Some of the arguments are that the story past disc one is too far-fetched and that everything seems coincidental for the convenience of the plot. If you ask me most FF storylines are indeed far-fetched and sometimes too convenient, and ff8 is no exception to the rule.
Anyway, although the arguments do really add up and make sense, I don't think this theory is akshully true, because I don't know why square would be so subtle about something as important as well... the main character being dead for the whole game past disc 1. :P
EDIT: Oh and BTW, reading 'bout this theory reminded me how messed up the end of the game was... Some of the shots really freak me out, like the distorted Rinoas over and over again. But the thing that freaked me out the most was that one shot of Squall's head with this black void for a face. When I go to bed now I get scared of faceless Squalls in my closet and under my bed. T____T
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http://squallsdead.com/
Squall dies at the end of disc 1 when he gets skewered by Edea's magic icicle thing.
At first I lol'd. Then I realized it all made sense in the end. After reading the whole thing it just all added up. Some of the arguments are that the story past disc one is too far-fetched and that everything seems coincidental for the convenience of the plot. If you ask me most FF storylines are indeed far-fetched and sometimes too convenient, and ff8 is no exception to the rule.
Anyway, although the arguments do really add up and make sense, I don't think this theory is akshully true, because I don't know why square would be so subtle about something as important as well... the main character being dead for the whole game past disc 1. :P
EDIT: Oh and BTW, reading 'bout this theory reminded me how messed up the end of the game was... Some of the shots really freak me out, like the distorted Rinoas over and over again. But the thing that freaked me out the most was that one shot of Squall's head with this black void for a face. When I go to bed now I get scared of faceless Squalls in my closet and under my bed. T____T
Lol Faceless Squall. Imagine getting a kiss from that thing, NumNumNum :P
The theory sound plausible but at the same time more boogus then the Ultramecia is Rinoa theory in my opinion. If it was true SquareSoft would've made it a blatant fact. Something more then hints and faceless Squall. They would've had him have some ghosty moments (at his own funeral no doubt) amongst with the breaking in reality alot sooner then the time compression.
To me the theory is more of people trying to explain something they don't understand. Basically a weather balloon theory.
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So everything that happened after cd 1 means that's a ''what if''?
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jesus. i can't say how many times i've heard this theory. possible, but not probable.
how do we know Squall dies in disc 1? Can't we say this about virtually every other final fantasy?
FF4, Rydia summons Titan, Cecil dies and then dreams about everything that happens from then on.
FF6, How do we know that Celes doesn't actually die under Cids care and she's comatose the whole time?
FF7, Cloud could have died when stabbed by Sephiroth
FF8, Hell, even at the start Squall could have died during his fight with Seifer, and everything after the hospital is just a dream
FF9, hardly played, game looked stupid
FF10, Tidus could have died from Sin at the start
Is there any way to distinguish that specific scene from the others? I could make an equally compelling argument about any one of these potential "main character dies" theories.
Would name more, but I think you get the idea.
Not to mention the story makes perfect sense. It's like a time loop. Ultimecia in the future hears that a group of SeeD will defeat her. That's why Seifer interrogates Squall at the start of Disc 2 to find out more about Seed. That's why when they fight Ultimecia masquerading as Edea at the end of Disc 2, she says, so you're the SeeD destined to defeat me. Ultimecia knows what going to happen. She wants to stop it. Ultimecia wants to compress time, in order to counter her prophesied defeat. Because by compressing time she would be the only one who could exist (thus eliminating the SeeD).
Some of the stuff is just plain unreasonable. Since when was a game featuring magic, gunblades, guardian forces and more, being ridiculous for adding moombas. It is final fantasy. Moombas are like Chocobos imo. Don't see anything wrong with an alternate species. FF4 had dwarves. FF6 had espers (terra is half-esper). FF7 has the ancients/jenova. FF8 has moombas. FF9 has the monkey-midget crossbreed aka Zidane.
All his arguments are flawed if you look at them. Squalls supposed foreshadow about being forgotten (when he says, I don't want to be like Seifer, I don't want to be forgotten), is not about dying, but him worrying that no one loves him. that noone holds him close to their heart. that noone is going to look back at Squall and say Squall was this, Squall was that. He's not worried about death. He's a Seed. He's worried that noone cares about him. Which plays into the central theme of FF8. Which is the personal growth of Squall.
The author has a preconceived idea of what he wants. He projects something that's been stuck in his head onto FF8 in the hopes it meshes into his idea of the perfect story. But what is the point of a story that shows no character development, no conclusion, no hero's journey, virtually no plot since nothing is happening, and technically a pointless story.
I think FF8 had a fantastic story and feel no need to project Vanilla Sky into the world of Final Fantasy. FF8 had an interesting plot, perhaps some parts forced when they shouldn't have been. (They forget childhood memories, and Irvine just happens to suggest that it's the GF and they begin to take it as truth?)
EDIT: Also an interesting point I'd like to make. Squall is pierced by a piece of ice on the RIGHT side of his chest. Hearts on the left. :] I've seen this thread a couple of times on gamefaqs back when I was going through a playthrough.
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As an aside: the ending makes a lot more sense once you deal with the Japanese version of the confrontation with Ultimecia. I don't recall exactly, but I believe she promises to erase the memories / pasts of the SeeDs - replacing everything with Ultimecia. Thus the 'dubbing' of her face onto Rinoa's at the close.
My own little non-canon idea? Ultimecia is suffering for a myth. Persecuted through superstitions long before she even became a sorceress, her response is novel. She will redress the injustice not by punishing her pursuers, but by changing the fabric of the past to make the myths true. She can therefore oddly 'reconcile' herself with the history already painted for her, a history and a portrait she otherwise couldn't identify with. Ultimecia's 'vengeance' already does an awful lot to bring myth and speculative history to life - reviving Griever, for instance.
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FF9, hardly played, game looked stupid
Silly reason not to play a game, it's one of the best IMO. Don't judge a book by it's cover :P
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Edea made Seifer 100% loyal to her subconciously. Once Rinoa was possessed, suddenly Squall became interested in her and ... 100% loyal/in love.
Discuss
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FF9, hardly played, game looked stupid
Silly reason not to play a game, it's one of the best IMO. Don't judge a book by it's cover :P
i did play it. i got through the ice cavern and then i got bored of it. i didn't really like the cast, and the plot really didn't grab me like FF7 or FF8. When you try to capture the princess, there just isn't that magic like in FF7 (the Mako reactor creates a feeling of anticipated horror) or FF8 (the raid on dollet was suspenseful and climactic). I just feel like kidnapping the princess is the most cliched thing you can have in a game. The starting part with Vivi was 10minutes of mindlessly walking around doing nothing. The music didn't really stick in my head, though admittedly I didn't get very far.
I guess the plot just couldn't hook me in at the start. and the cast just didn't really have me caring about them at all. Maybe I'll replay it sometime.
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FF4, Rydia summons Titan, Cecil dies and then dreams about everything that happens from then on.
FF6, How do we know that Celes doesn't actually die under Cids care and she's comatose the whole time?
FF7, Cloud could have died when stabbed by Sephiroth
FF8, Hell, even at the start Squall could have died during his fight with Seifer, and everything after the hospital is just a dream
FF9, hardly played, game looked stupid
FF10, Tidus could have died from Sin at the start
Although all those scenarios could have been possible in the games you listed, I can't find any symbolic elements in those games that hint on their deaths. You sound like you haven't read up on the squall's dead theory, but this theory is backed up by quite a lot of symbolism (a lot of it is in the ending scene of the game), which I'm not goign to get into because the site I linked says it all and I'd just be repeating it all.
Oh and lulz, you kinda sound like Hermoor bashing one game and claiming another game is better. But with better grammar and logic. :P
EDIT: Also an interesting point I'd like to make. Squall is pierced by a piece of ice on the RIGHT side of his chest. Hearts on the left. :] I've seen this thread a couple of times on gamefaqs back when I was going through a playthrough.
Whether he was stabbed on the right side of the left side of his chest, an icicle half as long as himself that went into his chest and out the back would have killed off anyone. And Edea would have no reason in reviving him after. She had 3 other SeeD prisoners that she could have interrogated, and Quistis is probably the most knowledgeable out of the 4. That and usually when characters die in final fantasy games as a plot element (like Aeris) there is no reviving them for some reason, cuz that's how Square rolls.
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Edea made Seifer 100% loyal to her subconciously. Once Rinoa was possessed, suddenly Squall became interested in her and ... 100% loyal/in love.
Discuss
I actually just saw this segment in a lets play. He does start being more affectionate before she's possessed. namely once she falls off garden, the threat of her being in trouble seems to trigger him being more worried, and when the land and hit on eachother he's a little warmer then than the rest of the game. interesting point though.
As to discussion, I loved that turn in the story of seifer/sorceress knight being the "bad guy", then shoving squall in the same role. (note, seifer had his love/loyalty to his mother figure, whereas squall was to his gf :P). Maybe sorceresses emit epic phermones er something... dunno.. cid/edea? :P.
In regards to the squall is dead theory, this could probably be seen as some jealousy of seifers loyalty (last thing squall saw before dieing)(squall doesnt have much loyalty at that point, he just does his stuff).
without the death theory, i think its just a neat symbol and symmetry in the plot. (role reversal is usually a satisfying plot device)
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FF4, Rydia summons Titan, Cecil dies and then dreams about everything that happens from then on.
FF6, How do we know that Celes doesn't actually die under Cids care and she's comatose the whole time?
FF7, Cloud could have died when stabbed by Sephiroth
FF8, Hell, even at the start Squall could have died during his fight with Seifer, and everything after the hospital is just a dream
FF9, hardly played, game looked stupid
FF10, Tidus could have died from Sin at the start
Although all those scenarios could have been possible in the games you listed, I can't find any symbolic elements in those games that hint on their deaths. You sound like you haven't read up on the squall's dead theory, but this theory is backed up by quite a lot of symbolism (a lot of it is in the ending scene of the game), which I'm not goign to get into because the site I linked says it all and I'd just be repeating it all.
Oh and lulz, you kinda sound like Hermoor bashing one game and claiming another game is better. But with better grammar and logic. :-P
haha, am i being complimented or insult? =P i did give FF9 a chance if it counts for anything lol.
Symbolism can be manipulated to support anything. Symbolism isn't concrete proof of anything. For example Cloud. Sephiroth throws a destruct materia at him in the Shinra basement. Destructs most notable skill is death. pretty symbolic huh? In the temple of ancients Sephiroth says "Only death awaits you all. But do not fear. For it is through death that a new spirit energy is born. Soon, you will live again as a part of me." He's claiming Cloud will die and be apart of him when he fuses with the lifestream.
Later Cloud fights Jenova Death (right before he falls in the lifestream ironically). When Cloud fights Jenova Death, it signifies the death of his consciousness. Mako poisoning destroys his last conscious thoughts on Gaia and leaves Cloud as an empty shell. (as Sephiroth prophesizes in the temple of Ancients too). All i'd have to do is elaborate on this, take a couple screenshots, make conclusions about the ambiguous ending of FF7 and you'd be posting about cloudsdead.com :].
I don't know what the end symbolizes. I can't say exactly. Maybe it's the effects of time kompression. Maybe it's cause Laguna tells Squall that in order to get back to his own time he should "Imagine being in that place with all your friends. Once time compression begins, think of
that place and try to get there!" But Squall is unable to. If anything I think the scene represents the separation of Squall from his friends. Then when he's weak and near-death he embraces his friends and Rinoa. And he remembers Rinoa and their special place. The loner embraces what he swore he would not. Usually he depends on himself but he had to depend on friendship to get him through. Who knows what it really means. But that's the beauty of symbolism huh? A rose means something else to everyone. A rose might mean death and the flowers a widow sees on her husbands grave or it might symbolize the love that two newlyweds feel for each other. I can't say exactly what they truly mean, but my thoughts are, the story has been more about love, and loneliness instead of death. Squall's friendships, and his romances, instead of life vs death. The one character who does die and would stand out is Raine. And she is a very minor character. I just don't see how a gaping hole in someones face symbolizes death (i know that sounds stupid haha). Nor does the existence of Moombas, a couple lines of text that play more into the loner/friendship theme than the i'm going to die theme, and some words Ultimecia utters that doesn't make as much sense as it should. I personally believe the ending is just Squall trying to grasp any memories that he can remember because that's how he's supposed to get back to his own time. What Bosola says is interesting though. Would not be surprised if the Japanese original explains it all, and it was more a fault of the translators than the game makers.
EDIT: Also an interesting point I'd like to make. Squall is pierced by a piece of ice on the RIGHT side of his chest. Hearts on the left. :] I've seen this thread a couple of times on gamefaqs back when I was going through a playthrough.
Whether he was stabbed on the right side of the left side of his chest, an icicle half as long as himself that went into his chest and out the back would have killed off anyone. And Edea would have no reason in reviving him after. She had 3 other SeeD prisoners that she could have interrogated, and Quistis is probably the most knowledgeable out of the 4. That and usually when characters die in final fantasy games as a plot element (like Aeris) there is no reviving them for some reason, cuz that's how Square rolls.
she does though (keep Squall alive). because in the future Ultimecia knows that she will be defeated by a group of legendary SeeD. Because Squall defeats her in the past, and the knowledge passes down through time, in some form. That's why Ultimecia (as Edea) says "so you're the SeeD destined to defeat me" right before they defeat her at the end of disk 2. So basically she knows that there are some SeeD's that are destined to defeat her, but she doesn't know exactly who. Seeing as Squall is from SeeD, she figures she might as well interrogate him. Ultimecia doesn't realize that the one she's reviving is the one who's supposed to defeat her.
Ultimecia has no way to know Quistis the leader or the most knowledgeable. She simply knows Squall attacks her head-on and from what it appears he's bold enough to lead the strike against her (party members come a couple rounds later). I don't know why exactly she interrogates Squall, but she doesn't know anything about the SeeD so she can't exactly designate who to torture or who not to. Best off just interrogating the apparent leader of the assassination attempt.
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Some errors I noticed. The appearance of Griever in the final battle is explained in the Ultimania (the Ultimania, from what i hear disputes many claims by this theory). Ultimecia pulls griever from Squalls image of the perfect GF and creates a physical manifestation of it. Weird things (moombas.... NORG.....) happening =/= Squall dying. If the sky turned green tomorrow, it does not mean that I've died. Distortion =/= Life flashing before eyes.
If you want some lols, post the squallisdead theory on gamefaqs =P. from what i seen when looking for TT help, anyone who mentions Squallisdead get flamed like hell and referred back to the other 15 topics about it. Best trolling tool for the FF8 gamefaqs board ever.
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I think since cloud is remembering the past the hole in his face is supposed to represent the emptiness inside that he was in the past.
Also another odd tidbit of information. Rinoa was originally dating Seifer (Remind you of the Aerith Zack connection anyone?) who was the one who got her into the Balamb dance to meet Cid. So she could ask for the support for the mission Squall and Co later go on.
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Symbolism can be manipulated to support anything.
It can, but it’s the arguments behind the symbolism which makes it a more reliable truth.
"Only death awaits you all. But do not fear. For it is through death that a new spirit energy is born. Soon, you will live again as a part of me." He's claiming Cloud will die and be apart of him when he fuses with the lifestream.
No, actually he’s claiming that they will all die. “Only death await you all”. You can use this in a theory that claims that all the ff7 characters are dead :P but for this purpose it’s a weaker argument. A threat from the main villain of the game that “YOU WILL ALL DIE!” is not uncommon in lots of video games, and it’s a pretty weak argument to say that this means that Cloud is already dead.
When Cloud fights Jenova Death, it signifies the death of his consciousness. Mako poisoning destroys his last conscious thoughts on Gaia and leaves Cloud as an empty shell.
The party members fight Jenova Birth, and Jenova Life also, after Cloud gets stabbed by Sephiroth. Now you’re just picking different parts of the game that have to do with the theme of death (death being a popular theme in a lot of video games) and backing up the fact that it could reflect that the main character is dead.
EDIT: I'm sure you can take some screen shots and argue that Cloud is dead, then start cloudsdead.com. But before doing so you'd have to find *good* arguments to support your theory.
Seeing as Squall is from SeeD, she figures she might as well interrogate him. Ultimecia doesn't realize that the one she's reviving is the one who's supposed to defeat her.
LOL :P But that doesn’t explain why she would revive Squall. She has 3 other SeeDs to interrogate. Why pick Squall? He’s just another one of the SeeDs to her. Like you said, all she knows is that a bunch of SeeDs are going to kill her, but she can’t differentiate one SeeD from another.
She simply knows Squall attacks her head-on and from what it appears he's bold enough to lead the strike against her
Oh, that's why she revived Squall. So she knows he’s one of the more fierce and dangerous members who is the most likely (so far) to kill her? ;D And she knows that Squall, being bold and all, attacking her head-on, would probably be the hardest to get answers from? I mean, look at Selphie. She doesn't look like she'd last 2 minutes.
I don't know why exactly she interrogates Squall, but she doesn't know anything about the SeeD so she can't exactly designate who to torture or who not to. Best off just interrogating the apparent leader of the assassination attempt.
She could have interrogated the 3 others first, then revive Squall to interrogate if they weren’t able to get anything out of them. :P
Weird things (moombas.... NORG.....) happening =/= Squall dying.
It’s not so much the fact that Moombas are weird. It’s the fact that they are lion-type animals. They argue that the integration of Moombas in this game is to contribute to their proof that Squall might as well just be "dreaming" about all this. Squall likes lion for their courage and strength, he has a particular fondness of them, and the fact that there are lions after his "death" could symbolize that this is all in his mind.
If the sky turned green tomorrow, it does not mean that I've died.
No, but you should start wondering what’s wrong with you. :P
If you want some lols, post the squallisdead theory on gamefaqs =P. from what i seen when looking for TT help, anyone who mentions Squallisdead get flamed like hell and referred back to the other 15 topics about it. Best trolling tool for the FF8 gamefaqs board ever.
Why on Earth would I want to do that? Are you a troll OutFoxxed?
I made sure that there was no such topic on the qhimms before posting it, thank you.
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Chocobo Girl Has some good arguments, I still find it unlikely reasons being Hironobu Sakaguchi's mother died during the production of FF7 so naturally (he intended to or not) the games story centered around life after death and second chances. I don't think he intended this for FF8 but it might have came off that way. Sometimes when your writing a story bits and pieces of the persons real life experiences gets mixed up in the story they are trying to tell subconsciously...just my opinion.
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i think it's an interesting theory, would be pretty cool, but the way the game looks it's rather badly implemented. Common in stories is growth and development. Squall makes no growth and development because in the events of disc 1 he's just an a hole who cares more about the job than his friends. And he dies before anything grows. I'd gladly wager everything I own that Square intentions were not to kill Squall off (I bet you would too)
Also when the party plays as Selphie trying to stop the Galbadian missiles, how is Squall dreaming about what his life could have been or something?
But you can make a very compelling argument for Cloud being dead.
He fights Jenova Birth, which can symbolize the birth of of his mission. The starting point. Jenova Life symbolizes the continuity of the mission to kill Sephiroth in spite of Aerith's death. And Jenova Death symbolizes the end. Cloud physically dies at that point. (i'm changing my theory :]). It's a sequence. When he faces Jenova Synthesis, (the combination of birth, life, and death) simply means he's gone through the entire cycle and he has been born, he has been alive, and he has died.
Aerith's ghost at the church is a symbol of Cloud's guilt for not having saved her. And in the dream world he wishes she didn't die, so he creates an Aerith in the church.
Cait Sith predicts that Cloud and Aerith have a great future together. Ironically right before Aerith dies. Clouds future with Aerith is in the lifestream. Aerith and Cloud was the games intended couple. And the unite because Clouds dead.
At the end Cloud et co. face Sephiroth. In the last battle, Cloud defeats the Sephiroth in his consciousness. The Sephiroth symbolizes his greatest obstacle; being able to die peacefully. Cloud has wanted revenge on Sephiroth for seemingly forever, and he has to defeat his demons in order to rest in peace.
Cloud falls in the lifestream and dies after handing the black materia to Sephy because Sephy no longer has any use for him. Falling into the lifestream obviously means he should have drowned.
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Here's why Squall's the only one being interrogated. And this is from the game script too.
Seifer: Even if you don't talk, others will. The instructor, the little
messenger girl, or that Chicken-wuss... He wouldn't last 3 seconds!
Squall: (Th...They're...) ...They're...all here...?
Seifer: Oh, you bet. But since I like you so much, I thought you should
go first. I was hoping you'd be there, Squall. So...how'd I look in my
moment of triumph? My childhood dream, fulfilled.
Lions are a symbol for Squall, I agree with you there. But why would that mean he's dead? Because
it's fantastical and doesn't occur until after he's hit with ice? The moombas are symbols for lions not
symbols of his death. Maybe the world is unrealistic but hardly a reason to believe he died. I personally
believe they are Squalls connection to Laguna, who is his father. (that's why they say "laguna?"
when they see Squall--> they think he's his father).
The author even makes several justifications of how the dream theory is hard to argue or hard to believe
at that point.
As for Ultimecia's quote, my interpretation of it is that, "look back and savour your childhood memories
because time will slowly erase your memories of your past. time doesn't wait or relent. No matter how
hard you hold on. Which plays out pretty well with the ending since Squall is trying to remember but can't.
Ultimecia is probably telling Squall that you can try to get back home by remembering things dear to you
but time won't stop and it'll take a hold of your memories and erase them so you'll never return.
Most of the symbolism in his arguments don't point to the fact Squall actually dies, but more to the fact
that the game is unrealistic. His whole argument hinges on this if it's fantastical then Squall must be dead.
It's pretty loosely connected. For example that hole in Squalls face, he claims is because Squall can't
hold on to his memories anymore. He uses that as an excuse for death rather than what is more commonly
accepted; that memories and the things he cherish are the pathway to getting back to his own time.
Rinoa's feather symbolizes his memories of Rinoa. Squall pictures Rinoa crying and a flood of memories
come at him. Which is how he is saved. As Laguna tells him, the only way to get back is to think about
your friends. I guess it's cause the ending has always made perfect sense to me that I don't really feel
the need for an alternate theory to satisfy me.
My main argument here is not that the theory is not possible, but that the game does not provide enough solid
concrete evidence so that one can say in FF8 Squall dies. Because the evidence provided by the authors
is present in every game.
EDIT: I don't troll. dw =P. i have a tendency to be a bit stubborn in arguments, especially when i sense idiocy on the other side. But that's about as close as I get to trolling.
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We might ask Yoshinori Kitase...
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Even if it were true, they'd deny it. Square, like many other Jap devs, don't like fan 'participation' in their IP.
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FF8, Hell, even at the start Squall could have died during his fight with Seifer, and everything after the hospital is just a dream.
If that's what you're saying, how did Squall dream of Rinoa when at that point he never knew Rinoa?? I never knew there were such things as Squall being dead.. Hmm its complicated.
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Another "dead" theory. After having too many pixie stix and a marathon of Disney media/Final Fantasy games; a young boy named Sora dies of an anorism in his sleep and so everything after that was a dream of the dead. :P Now that crap makes alot more sense.
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FF8, Hell, even at the start Squall could have died during his fight with Seifer, and everything after the hospital is just a dream.
If that's what you're saying, how did Squall dream of Rinoa when at that point he never knew Rinoa?? I never knew there were such things as Squall being dead.. Hmm its complicated.
well it's a dream, anything can happen =P. assuming Squall dies at the end of Disc 1, his dreams create Ultimecia and his mother Raine. lol I'm fairly certain Squalls not dead, but there is a chance I'm wrong. i used that example to try and make the Squall Dead theory seem like nothing special.
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its just a musing theory with a rather large webpage devoted to strengthening hte argument :PP
enjoy the game however u like. its like a book, does anyone care if frodo is dead and dreaming all of lotr? it boils down to a basic interpretation or enjoyment or laack thereof.
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The whole thing is just stupid. There is no way he could have died, or that would have been part of the game. Also, I think that that part of the game was just that he was injured so they could move the game along, and it's possible that he could have been healed so that he could survive torture later on.
Also, I read what someone posted about Final Fantasy X, and technically, Tidus was never alive in the whole game.
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FFX had a clever plot and you are right he was a dream of the fayth.
FF8, no, Squall was not dead. he was alive and openly questions why he is uninjured. If he was dead, why would he live life the same as before and why would the game not make any reference to it. Absurd idea.
Also he wasn't hit in any vital organ with the spike. They needed him alive for the interrogation.
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FFX had a clever plot and you are right he was a dream of the fayth.
FF8, no, Squall was not dead. he was alive and openly questions why he is uninjured. If he was dead, why would he live life the same as before and why would the game not make any reference to it. Absurd idea.
Also he wasn't hit in any vital organ with the spike. They needed him alive for the interrogation.
The whole thing about Squall being dead makes no sense. And I think part of the creator's idea was that sometimes life is stranger then fiction, and included such an idea in the game itself, so if you put yourself in the eyes of the characters, everything would really makes sense in a strange way.
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Squall is Laguna's son. Mind = Blown
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Squall is Laguna's son. Mind = Blown
It's not that hard to figure out really,lol. I mean, Raine had a son that she died giving birth to, and Laguna had to be the father, and Squall is kinda like both and neither at the same time. It kinda makes sense for it to be him, really. I mean, otherwise, how would the flashbacks with Ellone really even be possible with someone else?
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It was never directly implied, only subtle hints were made. I don't know, I guess him dying at the end of Disc 1 could make sense. The game is called Final Fantasy after all.
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It was never directly implied, only subtle hints were made. I don't know, I guess him dying at the end of Disc 1 could make sense. The game is called Final Fantasy after all.
As true as that is, it does make sense for him to be Laguna's son. And while the game may be called that, that doesn't mean that the main characters die. I mean, really, when the last time a main character died on a Final Fantasy?
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Tidus technically dies at the beginning of Final Fantasy X.
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Tidus technically dies at the beginning of Final Fantasy X.
Technically, he was already dead when it started,lol.
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I suppose it's how you interpret the events. Final Fantasy X had some small loopholes in the story.
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I suppose it's how you interpret the events. Final Fantasy X had some small loopholes in the story.
As true as that is, he was technically just a dream, so everyone else was real, and he technically wasn't, they could just see him.
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I suppose it's how you interpret the events. Final Fantasy X had some small loopholes in the story.
As true as that is, he was technically just a dream, so everyone else was real, and he technically wasn't, they could just see him.
If they could "just see him" he wouldn't have been able to physically affect anything much less do battle and kiss the heroine. I believe he falls under the same category as summons. In fact it's hard to relate FFX-2 when he was able to come back. After all, in FFX once all the fayth had been "stoned" or lost their forms whatever, he started fading away. So then who was the fayth that allowed him to come back (besides the obvious kid behamoth fayth)
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I suppose it's how you interpret the events. Final Fantasy X had some small loopholes in the story.
As true as that is, he was technically just a dream, so everyone else was real, and he technically wasn't, they could just see him.
If they could "just see him" he wouldn't have been able to physically affect anything much less do battle and kiss the heroine. I believe he falls under the same category as summons. In fact it's hard to relate FFX-2 when he was able to come back. After all, in FFX once all the fayth had been "stoned" or lost their forms whatever, he started fading away. So then who was the fayth that allowed him to come back (besides the obvious kid behamoth fayth)
Well, I dunno about a summons, or that much about the mechanics of the game, I just know what is true within the game reality, and the reality is that he was a dream of the faith, and therefore not alive.
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Hmm I for one actually agree with Tidus like the summons because he was also being summoned or is a dream of fayth like the summons. :)
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Hmm I for one actually agree with Tidus like the summons because he was also being summoned or is a dream of fayth like the summons. :)
Well, it could be true, but who knows, really. For all we know it could be something totally different then a direct summon by the Fayth. I just couldn't say what though.
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Hmm I for one actually agree with Tidus like the summons because he was also being summoned or is a dream of fayth like the summons. :)
Well, it could be true, but who knows, really. For all we know it could be something totally different then a direct summon by the Fayth. I just couldn't say what though.
Well. I think that since they portray him in the farplain in FFX-2 (endgame scenes not the one where shuyin shows up) that he obviously has a soul. So he had to have lived to some compacity. Everything in that world is made up of pyreflies just like how all living things in ff7 are made up of lifestream. So to that capacity of course tidus was alive.
... We may have to split this off into another discussion considering this thread is about squall. FFX Tidus being alive is a whole new discussion in of itself.
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Also, I read what someone posted about Final Fantasy X, and technically, Tidus was never alive in the whole game.
I was going to bring that argument up too. But if you think about it this way, Tidus might have been a normal kid living in a real city, and after the attack of Sin in Zanarkand during the game, he could have just died there and had this "life-flashing-before-his-eyes" sequence like Squall's in that theory, and he could have merely just imagined that he is nothing but a dream, and it could ahve been a reflection on his life about how he's always felt insignificant deep down. :P :P
I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
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I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
So all final fantasy fans are technically necrophiliacs?
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I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
So all final fantasy fans are technically necrophiliacs?
More importantly, does this mean that rule 34 on FF is illegal here in Britain? ;D (f*ck our draconian porn laws >:()
If it is, I'd better nuke some sections of my HDD (not many sections, however...)
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I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
So all final fantasy fans are technically necrophiliacs?
More importantly, does this mean that rule 34 on FF is illegal here in Britain? ;D (f*ck our draconian porn laws >:()
If it is, I'd better nuke some sections of my HDD (not many sections, however...)
Whosawhat? No porn in Britain. How're you guys supposed to wank?
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I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
So all final fantasy fans are technically necrophiliacs?
More importantly, does this mean that rule 34 on FF is illegal here in Britain? ;D (f*ck our draconian porn laws >:()
If it is, I'd better nuke some sections of my HDD (not many sections, however...)
Whosawhat? No porn in Britain. How're you guys supposed to wank?
There's porn, but the former government took a dim view on kinky stuff and I doubt the current one will be any better. Extreme S&M, necrophilia and bestiality are all out, and British porn laws tend not to distinguish between real people and drawings. If all of the characters in FF are dead, then that means...
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I think this thread needs to be changed to all final fantasy characters are dead. :P
So all final fantasy fans are technically necrophiliacs?
More importantly, does this mean that rule 34 on FF is illegal here in Britain? ;D (f*ck our draconian porn laws >:()
If it is, I'd better nuke some sections of my HDD (not many sections, however...)
Whosawhat? No porn in Britain. How're you guys supposed to wank?
There's porn, but the former government took a dim view on kinky stuff and I doubt the current one will be any better. Extreme S&M, necrophilia and bestiality are all out, and British porn laws tend not to distinguish between real people and drawings. If all of the characters in FF are dead, then that means...
oh got ya. Jeez. My whole thing is if it's not made out to be "against the law" not as many people would feel like breaking it. Restrictions are a way to go but making stuff completely illegal will just make people want it more.
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I have no issue with that, I think all porn should be banned from TV, if you want porn search for it yourself online. That is the place for it, in your own time, not forcing it on a population who pay a tv license. I also don't like the pron industry as a whole. Sure I have watched porn but it was all free, it was not being paid for. I find the whole thing immoral when it is big business.
/offtopic
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I have no issue with that, I think all porn should be banned from TV, if you want porn search for it yourself online. That is the place for it, in your own time, not forcing it on a population who pay a tv license. I also don't like the pron industry as a whole. Sure I have watched porn but it was all free, it was not being paid for. I find the whole thing immoral when it is big business.
/offtopic
Ah, I see. When there's something I don't want to watch on TV, I just change the channel or turn the TV off (not that it's usually turned on in the first place). That "off" button is one of the best ways to stop people forcing porn on you, I find.
Also, I really don't think that such a subjective thing as "morality" (dangerously close to personal taste, usually with the backing of a religion) is a very good way to decide what it legal and what isn't. I also think that we've put ourselves on a very slippery slope by letting the unholy alliance of femnazis and christfags down in Westminster decide what we are and aren't allowed to do based on what they consider "immoral" or whatever, and we've put ourselves on a very slippery slope by getting into a way of thinking whereby we see fit to ban things simply because we don't like them even if they don't directly harm anyone.
Personally, I consider trying to force one's own prudishness on others to be immoral. Perhaps I should try to have it banned?
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Like your rebuke Kudistos.
@Seif
Well, here in the US most "porn" on television is only on pay for view channels. So still up to the person. Don't know how much you brits get in terms of porn on television.
In terms of it being a "big business" it just is taking a part of simple human nature just like food, water, and shelter; making it into a product. Sex can be the animalistic pleasure it is or it can be romantic, or whatever other fantasy you would like it to be.
/Topic HIJACKED
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@Seif
Well, here in the US most "porn" on television is only on pay for view channels. So still up to the person. Don't know how much you brits get in terms of porn on television.
It's basically the same here; on "normal" channels there are occasionally (very) soft porn flicks, and we get those documentaries about sex that are really an excuse for more soft porn. Or we did, at any rate. I'm not sure whether that still happens any more; the last time I watched that kind of stuff was before broadband became nearly universal and everyone had access to far superior porn.
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Wow, this thread derailed hard.
Final Fantasy VIII -> Final Fantasy X(-2) -> Porn
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Final Fantasy X-2 -> Porn
This is the only logical route any conversation can take, after FFX-2.
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The red wings got shot down. Cecil must be dreaming - going to the moon?
Bartz gets hit by a meteor. After spending so much time chained to his boring village, his response is to create a grand fantasy reaffirming his importance as a warrior of light.
Terra was killed by Quezacotl at Narshe. The rest of the game is a hallucination seeded by magitek, the artefacts of Kefka's torture, and the Magicite's presence.
Cloud got skewered by Sephiroth. The game is his own dream, finally granting him Hero status.
Squall's dead.
Zidane got his head crushed by Beatrix at the end of the first disc. Terra is his own projection, wondering where he'd come from.
Tidus was just a dream.
Reks was the real main character of XII. He couldn't internalize Gabranth's betrayal, so put together a parallel tale about his 'parallel twin' and Vaan.
Ramza was blown up at Ziekden fortress; Delita becomes his eroticized fantasy of a man who creates a better path for the nation.
Qhimm's dead; this is just a nightmare about forum life - endless iterations of borken board software, trolls, prats, spam, and crap.
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Qhimm's dead; this is just a nightmare about forum life - endless iterations of borken board software, trolls, prats, spam, and crap.
You could have saved time by just writing my name!
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8682/konatareaction.jpg)
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Watch from 4:20. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jneC6nJJA1A)
It does seem like he is coming to terms with his own death.
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LULZ! I didn't even bother to quote all the funnies in this thread it's just lulz. As for FF8 and squall dying, yeah .... and Rinoa kisses his dead frozen lips in the end video after watching a shooting star, OR DID SHE?!?! Also in the end video you'll notice where an infinite time loop becomes possible for infinite FF8 sequels and that part is where Squall sees himself as a child and watched ultimecia give her entire power to matron, but she was possessed by ultimecia in squall's main time line? this is where everyone's head spins and can't make sense of it, cause it's a loophole and can't be made sense of. if you think about it, in THAT time line couldn't matron with the new powers of ultimecia be possessed by another ultimecia in a different time line? if there's a younger squall in another time dimension so to speak or in a past event that he was able to get to at the end of the game, then why is there only ONE ultimecia? shouldn't there be one for every instance of the past, present, future? unless of course squall was just dreaming this up? but do dead people dream? oh WAIT!! the fayth in FFX are dead and dreaming!? so I suppose it is possible, without going into all the crap in other FF's that make no sense, I came to one final conclusion about these games "Enjoy them if they're good, toss em' if you don't like em' but whatever you do... don't try to apply logic to them" except for the lulz, like now. ^.^
*Edit* If I was in an FF8 story line I would go back in time and beat the crap out of myself for dating my first gf, gawd I was such an idiot, I COULD CHANGE ALL THAT!!!
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*Edit* If I was in an FF8 story line I would go back in time and beat the crap out of myself for dating my first gf, gawd I was such an idiot, I COULD CHANGE ALL THAT!!!
Same with terminator and other time travel media. However I'd just go back in time and knock up my first gf. Probably it would teach my younger self some responsibility.
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Hmm I for one actually agree with Tidus like the summons because he was also being summoned or is a dream of fayth like the summons. :)
Well, it could be true, but who knows, really. For all we know it could be something totally different then a direct summon by the Fayth. I just couldn't say what though.
Well. I think that since they portray him in the farplain in FFX-2 (endgame scenes not the one where shuyin shows up) that he obviously has a soul. So he had to have lived to some compacity. Everything in that world is made up of pyreflies just like how all living things in ff7 are made up of lifestream. So to that capacity of course tidus was alive.
... We may have to split this off into another discussion considering this thread is about squall. FFX Tidus being alive is a whole new discussion in of itself.
Back to the actual topic:
There's is really no way that Squall could be dead, and theories of other Final Fantasy Characters being dead (except for Tidus) are just crazy. There's a reason the word Fantasy is at the end of the name. The only reason it's called Final Fantasy is so the creator's could make one long Fantasy game, and not have to worry about making anything more the game (though in some cases they made a little more). It's called Fantasy so they can do some weird stuff and get away with it. Also, if Squall (or any of the other characters) were really dead, then why would there still be a game over/ you're dead screen? And don't you think it would have been part of the game? And about Tidus being dead, I think he was dead before the game started, and the Fayth just happen to choose him to go through time and help end their suffering (along with end the existence of Sin so there would be no more reason for them to continue being statues).
Edit: Like, what I mean is, that the Fayth were probably able to give him life once again, and were able to give him a physical form for a long enough time for him to do what they wanted him to do.
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But Tidus is never dead. He's born as a dream. :o
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But Tidus is never dead. He's born as a dream. :o
Exactly what I mean. I just didn't put it so simply,lol.
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There's a reason the word Fantasy is at the end of the name. The only reason it's called Final Fantasy is so the creator's could make one long Fantasy game, and not have to worry about making anything more the game (though in some cases they made a little more). It's called Fantasy so they can do some weird stuff and get away with it.
Actually, it was originally called Final Fantasy because Final Fantasy was going to be Square’s last game before their company died. It just happened to be a smashing hit so they continued the series.
Also, if Squall (or any of the other characters) were really dead, then why would there still be a game over/ you're dead screen? And don't you think it would have been part of the game?
In some cases, like the squallsdead theory, the creators will put some elements in a game that will hint at something (such as the main hero’s death) but will never explicitly say it. This is just a tactic to create controversy and debates about such games. I believe it worked. Maybe they didn't even intend to make it seem so. In which case they are probably all lulzing at us right nao.
Qhimm's dead; this is just a nightmare about forum life - endless iterations of borken board software, trolls, prats, spam, and crap.
SRS LULZ. :P
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There's a reason the word Fantasy is at the end of the name. The only reason it's called Final Fantasy is so the creator's could make one long Fantasy game, and not have to worry about making anything more the game (though in some cases they made a little more). It's called Fantasy so they can do some weird stuff and get away with it.
Actually, it was originally called Final Fantasy because Final Fantasy was going to be Square’s last game before their company died. It just happened to be a smashing hit so they continued the series.
Also, if Squall (or any of the other characters) were really dead, then why would there still be a game over/ you're dead screen? And don't you think it would have been part of the game?
In some cases, like the squallsdead theory, the creators will put some elements in a game that will hint at something (such as the main hero’s death) but will never explicitly say it. This is just a tactic to create controversy and debates about such games. I believe it worked. Maybe they didn't even intend to make it seem so. In which case they are probably all lulzing at us right nao.
Qhimm's dead; this is just a nightmare about forum life - endless iterations of borken board software, trolls, prats, spam, and crap.
SRS LULZ. :P
Ok, well, all that makes sense, but I really don't think that Squall is dead in the game or anything. Yeah, everythign is weird, but that's just how some games are,lol.
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It's just a theory, like Timu said, think whatever the heck you want of the game and enjoy it how you like. :P
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It's just a theory, like Timu said, think whatever the heck you want of the game and enjoy it how you like. :P
Good point. Well, I think Squall lives through what is supposedly the point where he dies,lol. That being said, I'm off to go play The Legend Of Dragoon (another game lots of people have opinions on,lol).
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It's just a theory, like Timu said, think whatever the heck you want of the game and enjoy it how you like. :P
Good point. Well, I think Squall lives through what is supposedly the point where he dies,lol. That being said, I'm off to go play The Legend Of Dragoon (another game lots of people have opinions on,lol).
sadly one of those games I didn't get to finish before my jinx of a sister stepped on the disk.
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sadly one of those games I didn't get to finish before my jinx of a sister stepped on the disk.
[/quote]
Ouch, that sucks. You can find it on amazon.com for pretty cheap actually,lol.
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Ahh, Legend of Dragoon. One of my favorite RPGs. I plomise, I will *never* get tired of that battle system. It's practically a bloody rhythm game. :P :P And the dialogue is extremely cheesez0rz, I love it. Wait what? Dart dies by the
hands claws of the green dragon and dreams of Rose saving him, and the rest is just his life flashing by him before he dies? GAAAH! @_@
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Ahh, Legend of Dragoon. One of my favorite RPGs. I plomise, I will *never* get tired of that battle system. It's practically a bloody rhythm game. :P :P And the dialogue is extremely cheesez0rz, I love it. Wait what? Dart dies by the hands of the green dragon and dreams of Rose saving him, and the rest is just his life flashing by him before he dies? GAAAH! @_@
It's my favorite game,lol. And now you're just getting crazy. There is no death of Dart or any of the main characters, except for Lavitz, who gets replaced by Albert, and then another character at the end, though I don't wanna spoil who it is for any who haven't finished the game yet. But my point is, no one else dies, and Dart definitely doesn't.
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Ok, well, all that makes sense, but I really don't think that Squall is dead in the game or anything. Yeah, everythign is weird, but that's just how some games are,lol.
vague endings never get old.
personally, i think this is one well researched theory backed by quite a lot of assumptions. and it makes a lot of sense. what i dislike about it is that it makes all gameplay after disc1 feel a bit pointless.
i'd stick to believing that squall didn't die and was spared because edea remembered him from orphanage. for that same reason she spared your party members at tv station (when talking to seifer) and had seifer follow her.
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Ok, well, all that makes sense, but I really don't think that Squall is dead in the game or anything. Yeah, everythign is weird, but that's just how some games are,lol.
vague endings never get old.
personally, i think this is one well researched theory backed by quite a lot of assumptions. and it makes a lot of sense. what i dislike about it is that it makes all gameplay after disc1 feel a bit pointless.
i'd stick to believing that squall didn't die and was spared because edea remembered him from orphanage. for that same reason she spared your party members at tv station (when talking to seifer) and had seifer follow her.
Actually, I think the whole thing was just someone over thinking the whole thing instead of just wanting to see it for waht it was, which would be what you believe it to be.
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i'd stick to believing that squall didn't die and was spared because edea remembered him from orphanage. for that same reason she spared your party members at tv station (when talking to seifer) and had seifer follow her.
Oh lulz that would actually make some sense. :) My ultimate guess would have been for the convenience of the plot cuz square likes to do that, without explaining anything. :P
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Watch from 4:20. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jneC6nJJA1A)
It does seem like he is coming to terms with his own death.
ehhh? i think it was just for dramatic effect lol. make main character seem he's lost the battle, and is unable to recall the memories that are supposed to save him. then he is saved very dramatically.
lol serious i think there should be a new meme.
what if i'm dead and dreaming since the end of disc 1
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Ok, well, all that makes sense, but I really don't think that Squall is dead in the game or anything. Yeah, everythign is weird, but that's just how some games are,lol.
vague endings never get old.
personally, i think this is one well researched theory backed by quite a lot of assumptions. and it makes a lot of sense. what i dislike about it is that it makes all gameplay after disc1 feel a bit pointless.
i'd stick to believing that squall didn't die and was spared because edea remembered him from orphanage. for that same reason she spared your party members at tv station (when talking to seifer) and had seifer follow her.
This is what I was always led to believe, and I still do, but considering other possibilities allows for a different perspective while playing.
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Gaming experience may differ when offline
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Gaming experience may differ when offline
Especially since it's a game that can't be played online,lol. And really, the whole idea of Squall being dead was prolly someone's idea of trying to get attention.
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not, I just think the whole idea of it is an absolute farce which is making people over think the the reality of their games.
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not, I just think the whole idea of it is an absolute farce which is making people over think the the reality of their games.
Agreed.
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To be perfectly honest, this creates the only perspective through which I appreciate the games plot. And since I'm much less concerned with proof when it comes to fictional realities, I shall forever more insist to myself that this was the original intention. On the other hand, while disc 1 didn't really piss me off, I still didn't enjoy it much, and it being Squall's fantasy doesn't really make the hours of exposition more enjoyable as they happen, so I probably won't play through it again. This "revelation" shall only serve to leave me with memories from which I can gain something positive, and not just memories that leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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*Edit* If I was in an FF8 story line I would go back in time and beat the crap out of myself for dating my first gf, gawd I was such an idiot, I COULD CHANGE ALL THAT!!!
Same with terminator and other time travel media. However I'd just go back in time and knock up my first gf. Probably it would teach my younger self some responsibility.
the problem with applying "time travel" or mixing past/present/future as a reachable place in any game/movie/anime or any other tv series etc that may have had such a plot, is that it's full of more holes than swizz cheese. I honestly never bothered to question it, I looked at it for what it was and sure maybe I tried to make some sense of it but never could be bothered to over think it because of topics like this.
It's been said already, there's people getting flamed on other forums for messages about squall being dead, rinoa being ultimecia etc. oh btw I rinoa is not ultimecia, square enix themselves put that to rest when serious speculation was rising and before that I gotta be honest even I thought that was true, but alas, it is not. Squall is not dead, if he was the entire game after disc 1 would be a dream.... if i'm not mistaken squall woke up in bed after disc 1 supposed death, perhaps he was dreaming that he died! yet another possibility, geezus, it's endless >.> *goes back to drinking and stops trying to apply logic to "fantasy" games*
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not, I just think the whole idea of it is an absolute farce which is making people over think the the reality of their games.
Agreed.
Finally, someone that agrees with me,lol.
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not, I just think the whole idea of it is an absolute farce which is making people over think the the reality of their games.
Agreed.
Finally, someone that agrees with me,lol.
I'm going to actually have to be one who disagrees with you. Not saying I believe the whole Squall is dead theory. What I'm thinking about is your statement "Making people over think the reality of their games". I would say play though the game the first time in pure enjoyment of it, then everytime after that do it simply to get a new perspective on the story and such. I've replayed games that I had played as a kid simply cause now that I'm older I'll catch/have a new perspective on the story. Like the old point and click adventures. Love them but ones like "under a steel sky" were hard for me as a kid. Now wam bam thank you mam, I can solve the puzzles and get the full story.
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Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not, I just think the whole idea of it is an absolute farce which is making people over think the the reality of their games.
Agreed.
Finally, someone that agrees with me,lol.
I'm going to actually have to be one who disagrees with you. Not saying I believe the whole Squall is dead theory. What I'm thinking about is your statement "Making people over think the reality of their games". I would say play though the game the first time in pure enjoyment of it, then everytime after that do it simply to get a new perspective on the story and such. I've replayed games that I had played as a kid simply cause now that I'm older I'll catch/have a new perspective on the story. Like the old point and click adventures. Love them but ones like "under a steel sky" were hard for me as a kid. Now wam bam thank you mam, I can solve the puzzles and get the full story.
Well, I'm not saying you couldn't do it that way, I just think outrageous theories like certain characters being dead with no proof (in ANY form), are, well, outrageous. Honestly, I have an extremely hard time even thinking it. I would more easily believe that Rinoa was a transvestite or something.
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Well, I'm not saying you couldn't do it that way, I just think outrageous theories like certain characters being dead with no proof (in ANY form), are, well, outrageous.
No proof in any form? Maybe you should have read the page I linked in the original post before coming to that conclusion. No proof in any form = saying that squall is dead without giving any back up on why you're theorizing this. The site provides plenty of it.
Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not
Honestly, I have an extremely hard time even thinking it.
Contradiction get! :P
I would more easily believe that Rinoa was a transvestite or something.
She is. You can tell in some close up shots.
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Well, I'm not saying you couldn't do it that way, I just think outrageous theories like certain characters being dead with no proof (in ANY form), are, well, outrageous.
No proof in any form? Maybe you should have read the page I linked in the original post before coming to that conclusion. No proof in any form = saying that squall is dead without giving any back up on why you're theorizing this. The site provides plenty of it.
Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
No I'm not
Honestly, I have an extremely hard time even thinking it.
Contradiction get! :P
I would more easily believe that Rinoa was a transvestite or something.
She is. You can tell in some close up shots.
I meant concrete proof, not just the thoughts of some college kid that can't tell his ass from his elbow.
And "contradiction get" means what exactly?
And I was really making more of a statement with the whole Rinoa thing, though I really think Squall should have been paired with Quistis, really.
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Hmm, consider this. If we imagine that all of this to somehow be real (let's say, I dunno, we're in the same universe 100000 years in the future and there's this technology that will let us view the world through one persons perspective at one point in time then it will explode for some reason, and we pick Squall for the length of FF8, for some reason), and we have all this evidence before us, the Squall's Dead theory would seem a lot more sound, in that, in accordance with everything established in disc 1, it provokes a great deal less implausibility.
Of course, if it were real, my final stance would be that Squall was more likely than not dead but that ultimately we don't know and, as such, I would not state that I "believe" either possibility.
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Hmm, consider this. If we imagine that all of this to somehow be real (let's say, I dunno, we're in the same universe 100000 years in the future and there's this technology that will let us view the world through one persons perspective at one point in time then it will explode for some reason, and we pick Squall for the length of FF8, for some reason), and we have all this evidence before us, the Squall's Dead theory would seem a lot more sound, in that, in accordance with everything established in disc 1, it provokes a great deal less implausibility.
Of course, if it were real, my final stance would be that Squall was more likely than not dead but that ultimately we don't know and, as such, I would not state that I "believe" either possibility.
Nice explanation. Now people will never get off this subject. It all comes down to what people "believe" (as you put) about it. Though I believe that the theory of Squall being dead is just nonsense. I mean, if he was supposedly almost dead and all that, then the game wouldn't last as long as it does if it was supposed to be like looking at what his life could have been.
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Blackdeathmessenger, first off saying "college kid that can't tell his ass from his elbow." makes you sound like either an immature highschooler or a closed minded old freak. Point is, if I was a mod here I probably would've thrown you out. But that could be just my mood ATM. Shizts like you come onto this board and think their all big stuff. Personally I'd side more with Chocobo_Girl on anything over your rude A55 any day.
Secondly, are you stupid or something, she put up posts where you contradicted yourself. "contradicted get" means she caught you on it.
And Eff Squall, Quistis is mine BIOTCH!
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Blackdeathmessenger, first off saying "college kid that can't tell his ass from his elbow." makes you sound like either an immature highschooler or a closed minded old freak. Point is, if I was a mod here I probably would've thrown you out. But that could be just my mood ATM. Shizts like you come onto this board and think their all big stuff. Personally I'd side more with Chocobo_Girl on anything over your rude A55 any day.
Secondly, are you stupid or something, she put up posts where you contradicted yourself. "contradicted get" means she caught you on it.
And Eff Squall, Quistis is mine BIOTCH!
Actually furzball, the problem is, I just don't care what you think, so suck on that.
And I have no idea what either of you mean. When have I contradicted myself?
And I was just saying, the game would have been better with them as a pairing. I mean, really, Rinoa is too free spirited to really do Squall any good in the long run, and Quistis already knows how he is and accepts him.
EDIT: Also, the problem is that almost no one actually see the reality of the game, which is that Squall lives through the whole thing. I am not JUST an a**hole, I'm an a**hole with a point =p
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Blackdeathmessenger, first off saying "college kid that can't tell his ass from his elbow." makes you sound like either an immature highschooler or a closed minded old freak. Point is, if I was a mod here I probably would've thrown you out. But that could be just my mood ATM. Shizts like you come onto this board and think their all big stuff. Personally I'd side more with Chocobo_Girl on anything over your rude A55 any day.
Secondly, are you stupid or something, she put up posts where you contradicted yourself. "contradicted get" means she caught you on it.
And Eff Squall, Quistis is mine BIOTCH!
Actually furzball, the problem is, I just don't care what you think, so suck on that.
And I have no idea what either of you mean. When have I contradicted myself?
And I was just saying, the game would have been better with them as a pairing. I mean, really, Rinoa is too free spirited to really do Squall any good in the long run, and Quistis already knows how he is and accepts him.
EDIT: Also, the problem is that almost no one actually see the reality of the game, which is that Squall lives through the whole thing. I am not JUST an a**hole, I'm an a**hole with a point =p
Look newbfag, it's not about caring what other people think it's showing respect to the people in a small community board. The thing that sucks is now there is only one mod that comes on frequently and I doubt he'd try to use the banhammer as freely as I would.
Quote from: blackdeathmessenger on Yesterday at 21:12:29
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Quote from: Chocobo_Girl on Yesterday at 21:08:14
Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
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No I'm not
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Quote from: blackdeathmessenger on Today at 07:12:18
Honestly, I have an extremely hard time even thinking it.
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Contradiction get!
Basically either you have a hard time with it (most likely of the two) or you dont.
======================
Pschologically speaking, that would mean quistis would leave him to be himself and basically he wouldn't have the interest in her and she would probably lose interest in him. Where as Rinoa got Squall to go outside his shell. Therefore building tension and interest.
Also at least by my term of "free spirited" I'd have to disagree with you on that. Rinoa does seem dependable and faithful in the right situation. Only reason she dumped Seifer is he was an a55 anyways.
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Blackdeathmessenger, first off saying "college kid that can't tell his ass from his elbow." makes you sound like either an immature highschooler or a closed minded old freak. Point is, if I was a mod here I probably would've thrown you out. But that could be just my mood ATM. Shizts like you come onto this board and think their all big stuff. Personally I'd side more with Chocobo_Girl on anything over your rude A55 any day.
Secondly, are you stupid or something, she put up posts where you contradicted yourself. "contradicted get" means she caught you on it.
And Eff Squall, Quistis is mine BIOTCH!
Actually furzball, the problem is, I just don't care what you think, so suck on that.
And I have no idea what either of you mean. When have I contradicted myself?
And I was just saying, the game would have been better with them as a pairing. I mean, really, Rinoa is too free spirited to really do Squall any good in the long run, and Quistis already knows how he is and accepts him.
EDIT: Also, the problem is that almost no one actually see the reality of the game, which is that Squall lives through the whole thing. I am not JUST an a**hole, I'm an a**hole with a point =p
Look newbfag, it's not about caring what other people think it's showing respect to the people in a small community board. The thing that sucks is now there is only one mod that comes on frequently and I doubt he'd try to use the banhammer as freely as I would.
Quote from: blackdeathmessenger on Yesterday at 21:12:29
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Quote from: Chocobo_Girl on Yesterday at 21:08:14
Looks like blackdeathmessenger is having a really hard time taking this information in.
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No I'm not
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Quote from: blackdeathmessenger on Today at 07:12:18
Honestly, I have an extremely hard time even thinking it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Contradiction get!
Basically either you have a hard time with it (most likely of the two) or you dont.
======================
Pschologically speaking, that would mean quistis would leave him to be himself and basically he wouldn't have the interest in her and she would probably lose interest in him. Where as Rinoa got Squall to go outside his shell. Therefore building tension and interest.
Also at least by my term of "free spirited" I'd have to disagree with you on that. Rinoa does seem dependable and faithful in the right situation. Only reason she dumped Seifer is he was an a55 anyways.
Yeah and calling someone a "Newbfag" is being real respectable asshole. Also, two different points, so the so-called contradiction doesn't count.
And that's possible, or they could have just used her to bring Squall out and then set him up with someone else =p And, just because you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, doesn't mean that the moderator doesn't.
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(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5278/flaming.jpg)
OK kiddies, play nice. Don't make me post all of these!
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3835/captureyq.png)
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black death messenger... why don't you actually read the squall is dead article before making a fool of yerself. It is quite extensive, and draws quite a lot of ideas from a great number of places in the game. now keep in mind, it is a THEORY. Doesnt mean its right, its just an idea, but it has a helluva lot more backing than you saying its wrong cuz u think so :P
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Yeah and calling someone a "Newbfag" is being real respectable asshole. Also, two different points, so the so-called contradiction doesn't count.
And that's possible, or they could have just used her to bring Squall out and then set him up with someone else =p And, just because you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, doesn't mean that the moderator doesn't.
Dude, you would've had my general respect until you called Chocobo_Girl stupid and did the song and dance of " I'm going to say I'm right, you're wrong" and stirring up shizt. I heard your opinion, didn't say nothing about it. My whole thing bringing in the moderator was that he should just toss rubbish like you. Before I do. And trust me, annoy me enough, and I'll do more damage then getting rid of you on here. And with the lack of internet laws to date, unexpected things might happen.
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And I was just saying, the game would have been better with them as a pairing. I mean, really, Rinoa is too free spirited to really do Squall any good in the long run, and Quistis already knows how he is and accepts him.
Wha??? Squall with QUISTIS? That's impossible! It's not what the game intended. It's too hard for me to believe, IT CAN'T BE. Rinoa's much hawter than her, that wouldn't make any sense?!?!??
See what I did there? ;D
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the author links being in a dream state with death. that's completely outrageous. what's to say Squall dies in the end? he argues that Squall is in a dream state assuming that being in a dream means you are dead. sure he provides the location where Squall dies, but then goes on to argue the dream without arguing the death.
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/841/newbitmapimagezg.png)
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I just had to save that pic!
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1224/43771296.png)
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the author links being in a dream state with death. that's completely outrageous. what's to say Squall dies in the end? he argues that Squall is in a dream state assuming that being in a dream means you are dead. sure he provides the location where Squall dies, but then goes on to argue the dream without arguing the death.
I guess. Still, there is no way to know what happens after you die. Maybe you do go in some dream state and your life flashes before your eyes. We have no one to prove this to us though. :P It's like in FFX, when you die, you become pyreflies until you get sent to the farplane where you can finally accept your death.
This is now a theorizing about death thread! :P :P
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in FFX, when you die, you become pyreflies until you get sent to the farplane where you can finally accept your death.
Or become a ravaging monster ^^
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in FFX, when you die, you become pyreflies until you get sent to the farplane where you can finally accept your death.
Or become a ravaging monster ^^
OHH OHH! I wanna be the ravaging monster! Now then, what to ravage.
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I actually have this theory about Mr. Ed (that show about the talking horse).
In the first episode Wilbur bumps his head really hard. It's after this that Mister Ed starts talking.
I think you see where I'm going with this.
I guess. Still, there is no way to know what happens after you die. Maybe you do go in some dream state and your life flashes before your eyes.
Ooh, ooh, like Lost.
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Look newbfag, it's not about caring what other people think it's showing respect to the people in a small community board. The thing that sucks is now there is only one mod that comes on frequently and I doubt he'd try to use the banhammer as freely as I would.
Actually furzball, the problem is, I just don't care what you think, so suck on that.
And I have no idea what either of you mean. When have I contradicted myself?
And I was just saying, the game would have been better with them as a pairing. I mean, really, Rinoa is too free spirited to really do Squall any good in the long run, and Quistis already knows how he is and accepts him.
EDIT: Also, the problem is that almost no one actually see the reality of the game, which is that Squall lives through the whole thing. I am not JUST an a**hole, I'm an a**hole with a point =p
I think both of you need to tone it down.
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I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.
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I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.
I don't think there is an ignore button. If there is, I'm going to ignore everyone except myself ;D
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There isn't. Add-ons do exist, but unfortunately they are somewhat bugged in the fact that you can ignore mods and admins.
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There isn't. Add-ons do exist, but unfortunately they are somewhat bugged in the fact that you can ignore mods and admins.
I just looked at "Who's Online" and saw you checking out my profile. I hope you weren't looking for an ignore button. Because that would make me a sad panda ;D
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Was the easiest one to click. ::) :P
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Was the easiest one to click. ::) :P
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5088/miodisappointed.jpg)
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I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.
Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?
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Looks like the shit will continue to fly for a while.
I'm going to sit back, watch, and enjoy myself.
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2606/reactioncyelaughing.jpg)
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I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.
Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?
If you want to continue this fight take it somewhere else please.
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I think both of you need to tone it down.
True, I apologize to everyone except blackdeathmessenger. Hopefully there is an ignore button on here I can click for him.
Dude,what the hell is your problem? Just because I don't believe what you believe?
If you want to continue this fight take it somewhere else please.
Hey,I'm not trying to start a fight or anything,really. Despite the words I used, I wasn't looking for one.
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I just programmed firefox to ignore him. No need for forum ignore.
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(http://i.imgur.com/qlrHy.jpg)
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Finnish dude
I think that pic suitably sums up everything that has been said so far :roll:
BTW, let's hope Hermoor never finds it. He hates Finns for being more Viking than he is ;D
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So much for trying to be civil about the how thing, or even showing RESPECT.
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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
Nope, I don't buy it. Even though I'm a bit impressed with the theory, it doesn't make the story better imo. You really have to dig deep here to grasp it, and, even then, every "evidence" is a bit far-fetched.
I think the story is as weird as it is 'cause the developers wanted to be original and (a bit) controversial. This is present in the junction-system as well.
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let's try go a little back to the thread.
since we're making up crazy stuff, what if the latter half of ff7 is actually rufus' fantasy, after he gets attacted by weapon? makes sense! ;)
oh and whole ff6 is about terra getting killed by an esper right at the beginning, just like the soldiers accompanying her.
i bet we can apply this schema to way more games. c'mon, show your stuff.
it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.
it could be an equivalent of axis of awesome is in music, adapted to games.
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Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.
Yes I know the idea that Square Enix intended that Squall was dead is a lot more improbable in real life but as long as an interpretation is consistent with all established canon it's not really incorrect, regardless of the authors intentions. At least that's what's generally taught in literary analysis (or we could just say that reading it as Squall's Dead is a derivative work with effectively the same script), and gafjugh the point is I think there's at least a solid enough case to not call this arbitrary or nonsense.
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Ok, I'm done with this topic. I'm just...done. To put it like Jack Sparrow: "I wash my hands of this weirdness."
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proper storytelling (the
Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.
i think you should differentiate between possible and plausible. possible means if it can happen, plausible means if it reasonable. and by all means it's not reasonable at all. The main character dies (ok that's possible). But there would be no character growth, resolution, or anything worth noting in 3 whole discs. Leaving Squall still as a loner, still mission-focused, still love deprived, still insecure, still a cold and unapproachable person. It leaves Edea alive, Rinoa unloved, Seifer unchallenged and Ultimecia with all her powers. It does not explain Irvines case of nerves (because he was shooting at matron), it does not explain Lagunas relationship to Squall, it doesn't add anything to the story, but rather subtracts from it. All the loose ends that are tied up in the 2nd 3rd and final discs become invalidated. So essentially this theory creates more holes than it supposedly fixes (i've yet to see one, the time loop is debatable but it's not a flaw in the plot, but more in the theory of time loops). Themes and symbolism are intended to strengthen a storys intended meaning, not to support some crock what-if story about how the main character dies that goes against the grain of every story anyones ever heard. If someone dies, then be assured there will be hints at the death. (near death does not count as nearly every story has this, there is no way to distinguish this from any other story). I can't exactly put my finger on it, but it's not just one thing that's wrong with this theory. It's like saying, I don't like the intended idea of the Bible and since I've seen the Matrix I'm going to project what I felt should have happened onto the Bible. I could argue Jesus is from the Matrix, (and piss off a lot of people while I'm at it). Seeing as how he miraculously walks on water, feeds thousands of people with hardly anything, comes back to life, talks to God and is supposed to be the saviour. It's like a puzzle with a missing piece. Sure you can put some play doh inside and mold it into the shape of the missing piece, but it's quite obviously bs and would not make sense to go there. It may fit, but fitting does not mean it's accurate.
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I was saying that what actually explicitly happens in FF8 after the end of disc 1 is a tad implausible in accordance with rules established in disc 1, and personal circumstances at the time of Squall's supposed death. I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).
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it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.
I've never played any of the games (I'm sure I'd shit my pants or something) but I have seen the movie, and it is implied that at the beginning of the movie they do actually die when they get into a car crash when they see something creepeh on their way to Silent Hill. When they get back to their home they realize they're not in the same world they came from (hence probably dead).
Ok, I'm done with this topic. I'm just...done. To put it like Jack Sparrow: "I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Watch him come back. :P
The main character dies (ok that's possible). But there would be no character growth, resolution, or anything worth noting in 3 whole discs. Leaving Squall still as a loner, still mission-focused, still love deprived, still insecure, still a cold and unapproachable person.
That’s the point you’re missing. Squall’s character does develop in his “dream” and the story continues on in his dream. I’ve heard plenty of stories that end up with the character just waking up and it was just a dream. Sure that’s a pretty lame plot device, *but* it doesn’t stop the story from being a story. Think of Eternal Sonata. I haven’t played it but I’ve heard that it’s all about Chopin’s dream. It doesn’t mean that it ain’t a story just cuz it’s told in that form. :P
Seeing as how he miraculously walks on water, feeds thousands of people with hardly anything, comes back to life, talks to God and is supposed to be the saviour. It's like a puzzle with a missing piece. Sure you can put some play doh inside and mold it into the shape of the missing piece, but it's quite obviously bs and would not make sense to go there.
The stories in the Bible are only to “guide” people and to set a path for them. That is ultimately the point of most religions. Pretty much like myths, the most important part of them is the moral of the story, not whether it’s true or not.
BTW, please use paragraphs. Hueg blocks of text kill me a little inside.
I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).
Yes, he does talk a lot without really saying anything. : /
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(http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg)
Anyway...
When it comes to fictional works, interpretation is all that really counts. Any interpretation is acceptable as long as it can be justified with evidence and reasonable analysis, and as long as the author himself doesn't directly refute it.
Of course, with non-fictional works, it's different. Interpreting it in whatever way suits you is not appropriate, because it's the truth that counts this time (whereas truth doesn't exist in the fictional world, because none of it is even real).
I would therefore not encourage any argument that Jesus is from the Matrix, because the bible is argued by many to be a factual account (at least to some degree) of religious history. That, and also because the bible was written ages before the Matrix, so it would be grossly anachronistic.
By the way, Vincent is dead. Seriously, how could he not be? Hojo shoots him, he wakes up in a coffin five years later, and his second limit break turns him into Frankenstein's Monster.
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proper storytelling (the Doesn't work with Silent Hill 1 because of Silent Hill 3.
For everything else, if we assume everything that happens prior to the potential point of death to establish the tendencies of the characters and the rules of the universe, none of those really create any in-universe implausibility, with a noticeable shift in themes and relationships, following someones possible death.
(i've yet to see one, the time loop is debatable but it's not a flaw in the plot, but more in the theory of time loops).
I agree with that, it doesn't necessarily create 'flaws' more than it creates speculation because time loop is not possible in real life leaving the subject open to endless ideas. That's why to me it doesn't make sense to apply logic, I only brought it up because I've seen forums with several pages of different theories. technically a topic about the FF8 time loop would never end and thus should never begin lol
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Vincent is dead. Seriously, how could he not be? Hojo shoots him, he wakes up in a coffin five years later, and his second limit break turns him into Frankenstein's Monster.
This, not really on topic but how is it possible that vincent can fly?? Also I agree he's already dead and chaos is the only thing that makes him alive but without chaos he's dead.
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it really fits silent hill 1, and silent hill 3 too. because you pretty much get killed at the beginning, or at least that's the way it looks like. in both games it seems like a dream.
I've never played any of the games (I'm sure I'd sh*t my pants or something) but I have seen the movie, and it is implied that at the beginning of the movie they do actually die when they get into a car crash when they see something creepeh on their way to Silent Hill. When they get back to their home they realize they're not in the same world they came from (hence probably dead).
just for reference for people who didn;t play those games before.
silent hill 1 (psx only) :
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beAgEzJvt9s
now that i think of it main character might die even twice here.
first he wakes from car crash (that's when the game starts), second time he gets killed by some monsters ( ~5:10). and wakes up at local bar.
most people believe that when he is killed by monsters he dies for real. and some mysterious force (won't spoil) resurrects him just this once. but it also makes monsters spawn all over the town - at the beginning the town is empty.
silent hill 3 (pc/ps2) :
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEZILKeI-Sw
~3:30 - ~7:20
main character gets killed, and wakes up in a bar, concluding it was just a nightmare.
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I was saying that what actually explicitly happens in FF8 after the end of disc 1 is a tad implausible in accordance with rules established in disc 1, and personal circumstances at the time of Squall's supposed death. I did differentiate, and, um, this is the second time that you've made a big wall of text stemming from the misunderstanding of a single word, a wall of text that is therefore not a response to what I actually stated (or at least intended to state).
u mad?
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Huh. This actually seems very likely. Good theory, I wish FFVIII's producer gave a damn to read it and give his thoughts.
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Personally, i don't think it could be true at all. If it was, why didn't the writer ever hint at it directly in the game, or at the very end? Why did no one hint at it through the following years, even during the official interview to the story writer that you can find online? In it the writer clearly stated what metaphor FF8 was intended to deliver and for what purpose the story was written in that way, making no mention of such a mind blowing theory.
So yeah, it's interesting, but to argue over it is pointless, since there is only a slight probability it is true and a far smaller probability someone with authority will ever tell us.
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Mind you neither interpretation is necessarily true in any objective way. I mean both are consistent with canon, and I would ask that you consider http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
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Reminds me of the theory of "Tony is dead" with The Sopranos, lol
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Mind you neither interpretation is necessarily true in any objective way. I mean both are consistent with canon, and I would ask that you consider http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
consistency with canon does not give someone permission to wildly speculate. like matrix bible or A-team shakespeare.
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4061/roflbotiyrs.jpg)
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Mind you neither interpretation is necessarily true in any objective way. I mean both are consistent with canon, and I would ask that you consider http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
consistency with canon does not give someone permission to wildly speculate. like matrix bible or A-team shakespeare.
And I would ask that you consider http://squallsdead.com/
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Mind you neither interpretation is necessarily true in any objective way. I mean both are consistent with canon, and I would ask that you consider http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
consistency with canon does not give someone permission to wildly speculate. like matrix bible or A-team shakespeare.
And I would ask that you consider http://squallsdead.com/
That site is genius for this theory although I still don't know what to believe. I guess we'll never know if he's really dead or not since I've played the game many times and it never occured to me that Squall died at that time or any other time in the game.
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What really matters is the individual's interpretation of the work, right? Just go with whatever suits you. If it isn't provable and "it doesn't make the story better" for you (quote from gjoerulv), then reject it.
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But this really weirds me out. If it was all a dream then Squall dreams of Laguna in his dream?? Its like his alive in the dream and in that dream he's dreaming of Laguna's past. And you're right, let's all just think that whether it really happened or not, Squall loved Rinoa even in his dreams. :)
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It's possible in theory, and maybe not just in the fictional world. Maybe we are all in a very long dream ourselves ;D
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It's possible in theory, and maybe not just in the fictional world. Maybe we are all in a very long dream ourselves ;D
I believe that we are all a product of someone's dream. It's kinda like having a God but different. That would explain the possibility of 2012, the person dreaming would just wake up. :P :P
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It's possible in theory, and maybe not just in the fictional world. Maybe we are all in a very long dream ourselves ;D
I believe that we are all a product of someone's dream. It's kinda like having a God but different. That would explain the possibility of 2012, the person dreaming would just wake up. :P :P
God is a late sleeper getting up at 8:12PM his time.
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I believe that we are all a product of someone's dream. It's kinda like having a God but different. That would explain the possibility of 2012, the person dreaming would just wake up. :P :P
I pity the person dreaming about me. What an inane plot...
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Mind you neither interpretation is necessarily true in any objective way. I mean both are consistent with canon, and I would ask that you consider http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor
consistency with canon does not give someone permission to wildly speculate. like matrix bible or A-team shakespeare.
And I would ask that you consider http://squallsdead.com/
lol u serious? matrix bible can be backed up with symbolism quite easily. and matrix bible is completely retarded. anyone can claim anything and use symbolic proof to support it. though his examples of proof aren't what is interpreted by the majority of the population. not even in the top 10 of what people initially interpret the evidence to be. just because it's possible does not make it reasonable.
i argued that cloud was dead and there is a lot of symbolism for the cloud is dead theory as well. and it can be argued just as easily with any other FF that the main character is dead. im saying it's possible but the chances of it are infinitely small. this looks more like a case of confirmation bias than anything else. guy sees vanilla sky (a movie that came out after ff8) thinks it would be cool for ff8 to be VS. projects it on to FF8. then through confirmation bias details that support him is evidence details that don't are ignored. religion (in my personal belief) is full of confirmation bias. I'm not saying god exists or not but a lot of things that don't seem to mean anything (like finding $ on the ground) is used as proof that God exists.
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And I would ask that you consider http://squallsdead.com/
WALL OF TEXT, NO CAPITLIZATION.
Seriously, I'm not even following the conversation, but you're Wall o' Text and lack of capitalization makes me want to punch a baby. I can't even start to read it without feeling like I'm somehow being trolled. For the love of God can someone please translate?
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And I would ask that you consider http://squallsdead.com/
WALL OF TEXT, NO CAPITLIZATION.
Seriously, I'm not even following the conversation, but you're Wall o' Text and lack of capitalization makes me want to punch a baby. I can't even start to read it without feeling like I'm somehow being trolled. For the love of God can someone please translate?
I'll have a go:
Excuse me sir, was your post a work of satire? One can quite easily use the argument that things are to be taken as "symbolic" to defend the Matrix Bible, even though the intellectual integrity of this work is questionable. It is not hard to make use of sophistic devices in order to defend a poor argument, claiming that thing are to be taken as symbolic; however, the general public disagrees with the interpretation of the things he gives as proof to his theories. It is not even amongst the ten most common prima facie interpretations of the evidence we have. The possibility of a theory being true is not sufficient justification for claiming it is true.
I argued, sir, that Cloud was dead and that one can support this theory by invoking "symbolism" in the game as evidence. In fact, this argument can be made to support theories that other main characters in the Final Fantasy series are dead. I say that it is possible but highly improbable, and believe that you are the victim of confirmation bias. This fellow saw Vanilla Sky (a film that was released after Final Fantasy VIII) and, after coming to the idea that it would be jolly well spiffing for Final Fantasy VIII to be Vanilla Sky, suffers from a confirmation bias that leads him to accept without question anything that supports his argument and ignore anything that appears to contradict it. I think religious people are often victims of confirmation bias. Whilst I shall not attempt to answer the question of whether God exists, I would like to point out that seemingly random events (such as a person finding money on the floor) are often used as evidence for the existence of God.
I'm sorry, I couldn't make any sense out of it. I think that our good friend might be one of those computer programs designed to pass the Turing test, one that spews out random phrases in order to give the impression of being human.
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Ah, my deepest gratitude, good sir. It would appear, fortunately, that there is some sense to be made of it. I do believe the problem stems from a gross overuse of filler information. I will have a go at summarizing his post based solely off of your rough translation.
Summary
I disagree with the points made in the link you provided. Reason being, I believe something different. I am also not a religious person.
I would like to apologize in advance if there were some issues of importance that I missed. Any other attempts at translation or summarizing are most certainly welcome. If we all chip in, we are sure to crack this dialect!
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Count me out >:(
Also, this thread needs more images...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7TQpPvPUFBk/SUXtAstdk6I/AAAAAAAABD0/GggL9zcR6Pc/S660/Great+wall+of+text+v3.JPG)
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Guys I think I'm in love with OutFoxxed.
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(http://kinialohaguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wtf-cat.jpg)
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Oh man, the fun I could have with this thread. My creative mind and lack of caring about other people will make some great stuff here.
FFVII/FFX(-2):
Final Fantasy X(-2) is the past of Final Fantasy VII, as proved by Shinra when he discovers the energy in the planet. Thus, in the future of FFVII, when Cloud dies in the Northern Crater, he clings to life, because he feels he hasn't dealt with everything he should have, much like how Seymour and Auron did in the past.
And after he defeats Sephiroth, he can't go on to the Life Stream because there's no Summoners to help him move on.
And then, Sephiroth, using another person, comes back to a half life to try and bring Cloud back to the Life Stream, because Sephiroth, after talking with Aeris, has made a revelation and now feels the need to help Cloud back to the Life Stream.
(Yeah, I'm just pullin this outa my ass. I don't really believe this.)
FFVII:
Summon Materia isn't made like other Materia. Blank, non-magical materia is occasionally formed, and when a powerful individual or group (KOTR) die near this blank materia, instead of going to the Life Stream, the blank materia absorbs the persons soul, and creates a summon.
(THis would be pretty cool twist to FFVII)
FF in General:
What if all the final fantasy are just part of one long timeline that is constantly changing because of earth shattering events that rearange the planet it self, and the games are all just important events in the timeline of the planet whenever it's threated by some strong, evil individual?
Real Life:
What if it's all fake, and we're just dreaming? Or we're in the Matrix! And the Matrix movies are the way the people outside of the Matrix are trying to tell us what we're in? Or even worse! George Lucas is planing on making another Star Wars movie based on what happens before the original trilogy!?
Well, take that into what ever direction you feel like, cause I'm most likely going to laugh manically about it.
(http://api.ning.com/files/b*u3sBO-oVUBxg8evg9d61Rx2MSSiz8wpACkSLctSzyEGaAXW1z4qVfWnbUcKptmmKxCAiEnC*yoEZY5wz03o26Tvl8j-7bx/cat_laughing_out_loud.jpg)
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FF in General:
What if all the final fantasy are just part of one long timeline that is constantly changing because of earth shattering events that rearange the planet it self, and the games are all just important events in the timeline of the planet whenever it's threated by some strong, evil individual?
Or rather, what if all the final fantasy games are all the same story taking place in different possible dimensions? ;D :P
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Or rather, what if all the final fantasy games are all the same story taking place in different possible dimensions? ;D :P
That just:
(http://www.electricpig.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/fallout_exploding_head.jpg)
My mind.
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Or rather, what if all the final fantasy games are all the same story taking place in different possible dimensions? ;D :P
That just:
[img]blew[ /img]
My mind.
Sorry. Have a bandaid *hands over a bandaid* =D
The general plot of final fantasy games are very similar. Especially in the earlier games. FF1 and FF3 are about 4 lightwarriors going to fight off some evil d00d. FF3 and FF5 both have evil d00ds who want to return the world to the void, etc. =P
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Oh man, the fun I could have with this thread. My creative mind and lack of caring about other people will make some great stuff here.
FFVII/FFX(-2):
Final Fantasy X(-2) is the past of Final Fantasy VII, as proved by Shinra when he discovers the energy in the planet. Thus, in the future of FFVII, when Cloud dies in the Northern Crater, he clings to life, because he feels he hasn't dealt with everything he should have, much like how Seymour and Auron did in the past.
And after he defeats Sephiroth, he can't go on to the Life Stream because there's no Summoners to help him move on.
And then, Sephiroth, using another person, comes back to a half life to try and bring Cloud back to the Life Stream, because Sephiroth, after talking with Aeris, has made a revelation and now feels the need to help Cloud back to the Life Stream.
(Yeah, I'm just pullin this outa my ass. I don't really believe this.)
FFVII:
Summon Materia isn't made like other Materia. Blank, non-magical materia is occasionally formed, and when a powerful individual or group (KOTR) die near this blank materia, instead of going to the Life Stream, the blank materia absorbs the persons soul, and creates a summon.
(THis would be pretty cool twist to FFVII)
FF in General:
What if all the final fantasy are just part of one long timeline that is constantly changing because of earth shattering events that rearange the planet it self, and the games are all just important events in the timeline of the planet whenever it's threated by some strong, evil individual?
Real Life:
What if it's all fake, and we're just dreaming? Or we're in the Matrix! And the Matrix movies are the way the people outside of the Matrix are trying to tell us what we're in? Or even worse! George Lucas is planing on making another Star Wars movie based on what happens before the original trilogy!?
Well, take that into what ever direction you feel like, cause I'm most likely going to laugh manically about it.
(http://api.ning.com/files/b*u3sBO-oVUBxg8evg9d61Rx2MSSiz8wpACkSLctSzyEGaAXW1z4qVfWnbUcKptmmKxCAiEnC*yoEZY5wz03o26Tvl8j-7bx/cat_laughing_out_loud.jpg)
You have a very imaginative mind there. Although I like your theory about the ff7 summons since in ff8 they are monsters we can fight I kind of think that summons in ff7 was monsters before.
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Actually, the Final Fantasy producer said Final Fantasy 7 is Final Fantasy X in the future. Not sure if you were mocking that, or did not know.
It is noted in an official book (FFオフィシャルブック) that Spira is the world of Final Fantasy VII, but in a far distant past. Pyreflies are also equivalent to Lifestream of the latter game, though appearing in different forms.
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I would call that more of a metaphorical comparison than a literal one, but I suppose it does make some sense. Sin could be a WEAPON, couldn't it?
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If only all these reflections and acrobatics of logic were used to actually figure out how to mod the games in question better....i wonder at what point we would be.
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Probably nowhere. There would be to much thinkin', and not enough doin'
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FF in General:
What if all the final fantasy are just part of one long timeline that is constantly changing because of earth shattering events that rearange the planet it self, and the games are all just important events in the timeline of the planet whenever it's threated by some strong, evil individual?
Or rather, what if all the final fantasy games are all the same story taking place in different possible dimensions? ;D :P
i think dissidia beat you to it. because the concept of the game is pretty much the way you described.
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http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/findex.htm
Something I stumbled across ages ago.
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http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/findex.htm
Something I stumbled across ages ago.
That's very interesting, I made a few of those connections on my own such as in FF9 you walk into the weapons shot at Lindblum and you'll notice a large sword on the wall, if you press the "ok" button at it he'll say something like "I remember a guy with spiky hair who used to wield something like this" which would only lead one to believe he's referring to cloud. At some point when I noticed all these connections I myself couldn't help but believe the possibility that all these final fantasies are somehow connected to the same universe and really are distant sequels and prequels of each other. The only FF I couldn't find a connection with was FF8, I can't see how it's connected to any other FF.
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Well, the ifrit from FF8 looks a lot like the one from FFX. That's pretty much all I can think of :P
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http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/findex.htm
Something I stumbled across ages ago.
That's very interesting, I made a few of those connections on my own such as in FF9 you walk into the weapons shot at Lindblum and you'll notice a large sword on the wall, if you press the "ok" button at it he'll say something like "I remember a guy with spiky hair who used to wield something like this" which would only lead one to believe he's referring to cloud. At some point when I noticed all these connections I myself couldn't help but believe the possibility that all these final fantasies are somehow connected to the same universe and really are distant sequels and prequels of each other. The only FF I couldn't find a connection with was FF8, I can't see how it's connected to any other FF.
I think in FF9 it also says the names of Cloud and Squall in the end of the game?? And in FF8 maybe the technology they use is the same with FF13. Can't think of anything for ff8 so that's that. :)
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I believe they're called Easter eggs...
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OH MAH GAWD. While we're talking about relationships between ff games, I just noticed one between FF9 and FF1. In FF9, Garnet plays the role of a character called Princess Cornelia in the play. There's a town in FF1 called Cornelia/Corneria, it's the first town in the game. And the princess of Cornelia is called Sarah. Garnet's real name is Sarah. COINCIDENCE?!?!?
Here's another one. At the end of FF9, Garnet tells Zidane something along the lines of "Neither Cloud nor Squall shall come between us." Maybe that is a symbol to tell us that Cloud and Squall won't come between them because both characters died!@$% Lulz k nao I'm just trawlin' but I *was* srs about the reference that FF9 had about princess Sarah of Cornelia. FF9 has a lot of older FF references anyway. :)
EDIT: I just noticed that Nikfrozty mentioned that Squall and Cloud are mentioned in FF9. Srry I missed that. :P
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OH MAH GAWD. I just realized something. The four huge materia in FF7 happen to be yellow, red, blue, and green in color, amirite? Well, the four crystals of Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind in FF1 are the same colors, respectively. That's why they didn't want the four huge materia to be destroyed by Meteor. They were the elemental crystals!
Sorry, I'm mocking you :3
You don't mind, do you?
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OH MAH GAWD. Cid's in every game. They must all be on the same planet, and he's an immortal being with a horrible memory.
:P
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As long as it's for the lulz it's fine. :P I thought it was an awesome revelation though... =/
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Squall was punctured through the chest, which means that, most likely, the spike collapsed a lung. However, even in this world (without magic, extra-advanced tech, GF's, etc) one can survive that, even if just by the skin of their teeth. With the assistance of magic and FF8 world tech, Squall's survival is assured through nearly anything as long as he can get medical attention soon enough. Also, we must all remember that THIS IS A GAME. The authors of any game are not going to kill off their main character unless s/he is already dead when the actual story starts. It's just not a reasonable thing to do, plus it would seriously tick off the players. Even if the main character DOES happen to die, it wouldn't be until towards the very end of the game, like FF7. Writing the story for a game is almost exactly like writing a book or the script for a movie or show: without your main characters, your story is nothing. Also about the "Squall's dead, this is all a dream theory", no one's mind can envision any part of the world it creates without a way to view it, i.e. a T.V. or other distance viewing device, or the person actually being in that part of the created world. You try dreaming about a place you've never been and meeting or creating people you've never met or known the type and see how well that works out for you. I'll admit, the human mind is capable of many wondrous things, but that is not one of them. I'll admit that I was never able to play the game all the way through (because I borrowed it from someone else lol) so I don't know the full story, but I do have sufficient analysis skills to know that this "Squall's dead theory" is unfounded, unnecessary, and, while an interesting prospect, untrue. ~Kolris K.~
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dude welcome to the forums and thanks for the insight but please stop posting everything in red.
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plus with that much thought it probably woulda been a better idea to just make a new topic instead of necroing (i know you can necro if you have something valid to add to it but i don't think this topic is really necro-able)
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FF10, Tidus could have died from Sin at the start
Not sure if this has been corrected (Because I don't want to read all the pages XD ) but Tidus does technically die...
[ Sorry If I posted in a Necro-ed thread..it was at the top of the page and I didn't check dates lol ]
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Meh, I always just figured Square's authors couldn't be arsed with making something more coherent. And the plot-twist creep, inventing new threads to follow up, possibly to make the game easier to balance(?)... But, hey, good head-exercise.
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oh nice i posted on that site and my comments removed because of a simple thing that happend on disc 1 with detroys the guys whole argument which is when elli sends them to the past for the first time which becomse reacuring through the next 2 disc's and not just that i've also been baned from posting on there and had my comment removed lol so i'm taking it as i'm rite regardless now the guy who put it up has lost all respect from me i wudn't bother even posting a comment the guy doesn't want people who know the game inside out posting
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oh nice i posted on that site and my comments removed because of a simple thing that happend on disc 1 with detroys the guys whole argument which is when elli sends them to the past for the first time which becomse reacuring through the next 2 disc's and not just that i've also been baned from posting on there and had my comment removed lol so i'm taking it as i'm rite regardless now the guy who put it up has lost all respect from me i wudn't bother even posting a comment the guy doesn't want people who know the game inside out posting
very few people read run on sentences because they're very hard to understand, i would suggest rephrasing that so that everyone understands what your talking about.
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Looking at the site, that's part of why his comment got culled, bad grammar, bad spelling and even calling someone a moron.
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writing/typing english has never been a strong suit for me as i have learning difficulties if that courses problems for people its their problem not mine and as for calling someone a moron if u read the comment i posted it was directed at the person who made the argument about squall being dead and i stated why. if they can't handle being called a moron for very weak argument points then they sudn't have even posted it as its critisim regardless of what i called him/her. and due to my learning difficulties i tend to forget grammer which is my bad
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I spent my entire time at secondary school getting extra help because I have dyspraxia, I know all about difficulties in learning.
You still called the guy a moron for his opinion, not a wise thing to do.
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i saw an argument full of weak points and pointed them out. no where did i see an opinon, opinons and arguments are 2 seperat things in my book, and as u can see opinons are different and not much detailed research goes into them once he had done that much research it becomes an argument. thats how i see it informed opinons are different again and i have dyslexia
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i saw an argument full of weak points and pointed them out. no where did i see an opinon, opinons and arguments are 2 seperat things in my book, and as u can see opinons are different and not much detailed research goes into them once he had done that much research it becomes an argument. thats how i see it informed opinons are different again and i have dyslexia
don't matter, this forum is friendly, if your not going to be friendly then there is a problem, calling someone a moron is bad no matter what, it is in fact a type of trolling.
EDIT:
to elaborate, i mean you'll find yourself in serious trouble if you go around calling people here morons like you did that guy.
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lol don't worry bout that just that i notced alot of comments about anything to do with disc 1 of ff8 had been removed hence why i called him a moron people here listen to peoples opinons atleast thats the feel i get im not one to call someone for no reason but i will reframe from doing so since i have read the updated rules and regs
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.
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lol don't worry bout that just that i notced alot of comments about anything to do with disc 1 of ff8 had been removed hence why i called him a moron people here listen to peoples opinons atleast thats the feel i get im not one to call someone for no reason but i will reframe from doing so since i have read the updated rules and regs
nice to see someones read the rules :D
Was Ultimecia watching Squall as he took care of comatose Rinoa? If she was, what did she think, seeing him, the person she hated and feared, at his most tender and vulnerable?
probably wished she could rip him to shreds
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While the Squall is Dead theory has merit, the ending seems too happy and unfitting to go along with it. If the ending is part of some kind of dream, then it makes about as much sense as Evangelion Ep26 (Squall's ideal reality?).
After I finished the game, I figured that the story is out of order. As I see it, the first part of the ending (Squall wandering) is chronologically the first event in the game. As he wanders, he tries to recall reality. This struggle to remember who he is and how he got there is what the game actually consists of. "I'll be here, waiting." The intro video is his mental process as he begins to recall the events that brought him to the time-compressed reality, one bit at a time.
Remembering Rinoa's words are the key to remembering, and he starts with the first significant event in that chapter of his life (the fight with Seifer). From the end of the intro video until the ending cutscene, Squall is recalling the events from his own, very skewed perspective. The events in the game may be representations of the story as Squall saw them, and perhaps not as they really happened. This forgives a lot of the oddities (Moombas?), and further justifies the use of Squall's inner monologues.
Sakaguchi specifically noted the difference between how Cloud's personal thoughts are intentionally hidden from the player, while he wanted to try the opposite with FF8. Telling the story from that character's perspective always seemed to me a good way to execute the concept.
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one statement: it says that Edea only would of healed Squall for "interrogation" purposes, however, at the time when she attacked she was being controlled, so Edea edea would heal him,if she was freed from U's control, even for a minute