Author Topic: Ripping Model rule discussion (closed)  (Read 46023 times)

seifertemp

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ahh yes but using mp3 of the music or psf is also illegal, because it is a distribution without consent.  In fact music illegalty has generally been pounced on much harder than anything else...

Prince Lex

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As long as OCRemix is in existence, I think we'll be OK music-modding wise.

halkun

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The above rules seem to pick and choose what they will allow or disallow, this one stands out to me>

Changes of "kernel.bin" are also exempt for now because, as a tool, it offers wonderful insight into the internal workings of the game.

That seems to suggest "oh well sod it, it is a great mod so don't care"

Any case, I am just making the case that I personally don't like the new rule or where it seems to be heading, but if that is the rule it is the rule.  

For years I have enjoyed the taking apart of things to see how they work. I am not a programmer, but a "data analyst". One of my talents is that I enjoy taking large amounts of cryptic data and making something human out of them. The deconstruction of kernel.bin and the tools to help is key to learn how the engine functions. It offers us insight into how the game was created, and maintained. It's no small accident that it's also one of the very few pieces of data that can be transplanted into a PSX disk without a need for a remaster. Programs that allow is access to kernel.bin allow us to test the limits of the AI scripting system, engine mathematics, and more "under the hood" things. This forum was designed so like-minded individuals could reach an understanding about how final fantasies were put together, and to research what makes it stand out. Programs like PrC and Wallmarket offer is the ability to see the engine turn. It's the experiments and the discovery of new functions that I find cool and amazing.

I've devoted 10 years of my life learning how this engine works, and what it so revolutionary. I don't want to see it go away because someone thought it would be cool to throw in a bunch of hacked and broken Crisis Core models into the game to "improve it" and pissing off Square in the process.

halkun

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The real thought police seem to be the mods and some members who through fear, go much further than they have to.

Last time wasn't enough for you? :-D

halkun, please split if he wants another go at it.

You are not the boss of me! (Keep in mind in another, less generous forum, this would of included me giving you a temporary vacation from the forums)

Lionfist

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The real thought police seem to be the mods and some members who through fear, go much further than they have to.

Last time wasn't enough for you? :-D

halkun, please split if he wants another go at it.

You are not the boss of me! (Keep in mind in another, less generous forum, this would of included me giving you a temporary vacation from the forums)

Dude,he even said "please".
I think you misunderstood him.



And btw
Japanese people DO NOT think that we are destroying their art with modding, where do you heard that from? i love the j-culture and tbh, they are better modders then we are..especially the game companies themselfs  :wink:


Edit: does qhimm even know about this?
I mean seriously, he should be clever enough to know from all the years here, that this is just plain stupid right now. (don't take it personal halkun.)
« Last Edit: 2009-08-01 09:23:03 by Lionfist »

Lionfist

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Lionfist, just learn to make something by yourself. No offense...

Read my posts on the first page, im not talking about getting stuff, i said only releasing is illegal, not the stuff we are now putting in a rule (information&talking about it etc)
Srsly, lrn 2 read. No offense...

AND
i know how 2 make my stuff, thats why i never asked for models in the threads  :wink:
So, please be clever  :|

Millenia

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Good thing you're being stricter, way better to be safe than sorry.

Lionfist

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I think that talking about and showing screenshots etc on stuff you have stolen from someone else is just as much not legal as sharing it with others. (It can get the forum in trouble if Square doesn't like it.) Because if a lot of people does it because of this site, they will shut it down right. I agree with Halkun, these rules will encourage people to make all their mod content by themself instead of stealing it from someone else. And the site will not be in danger.  :-)

To be honest, I think Timusimusus Barret and Millenias weapons are a lot better than some of the models from Crisis Core and Dissidia. Timus Barret is in class with the Crisis Core models, while keeping the FFVII style. And Millenias weapons are commercial quality. I want to see more custom made stuff, ripped models are boring. Make a model Lionfist.  :wink: If you can't learn how to! :-)

World class reply!

I never said those aren't better, i agree that own models and textures beat others, 'cus its often a community project and made from zero.

And what you think (I don't wanna sound aggressive) is not important, 'cus information exchange, especially at in-game data, is not illegal.
For this site not to be in danger we always had that rule that we - DO NOT - release this stuff.
That's the point i mean.
Actually i think we are just moving backwards with modding if we do that.

And, what do you intend to do if i make a model? i never made ff7 models, only modified them in kimera, i prefer to work on jedi knight models.
So please, stop treating me as an idiot who's only lurking on here for models, 'cus as i said, i never asked in any thread for models.  :roll:

Lionfist

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I'm not a mod, take it up with Halkun. lol :lol:

Lmao, i just answered on your responses, i don't want to take it up with anyone  :-D

Jari

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The real thought police seem to be the mods and some members who through fear, go much further than they have to.

Last time wasn't enough for you? :-D

halkun, please split if he wants another go at it.

You are not the boss of me! (Keep in mind in another, less generous forum, this would of included me giving you a temporary vacation from the forums)



> halkun, please split if he wants another go at it.

> halkun, please

> please

But hey, if you want to go on a powertrip, please do bring it on. I'm in a foul enough mood for it.

seifertemp

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Anyway, this forum is still the best for mods and improving FF games :)  Long may it live   :-D
« Last Edit: 2009-08-01 14:05:54 by seifertemp »

Senti

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I know many are upset by this rule while many others couldn't really care less about it. For those that wish to continue the discussion of those projects they have that are no longer allowed here may do so on the following forums.

http://www.youforum.cc/ffmods/index.php

I created them specifically with a disclaimer that provides you with free posting of whatever modifications you wish to do so long as you do not host any files through the forum server (which is impossible). I will be moderating it very loosely for those that wish to use it.

Lionfist

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sorry, I misread.

I count that as a (disguised) bait too.  :-D
+
I think Bandito is right..

@Senti
I don't think adversiting is allowed on here, i dunno to be honest 'cus we had that before a lot of times. I'll put that link in my favorites tho to be save, thank you.

Timu Sumisu

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get over it peeps the rules have been laid. There is little point in debating it. have faith in Haikun's decision, he knows what he's doin so sit down kittys n do as your told.

On a second note... I guess i should start working on a modeling course :P

@ millenia - you should vid record your texture work :P

Senti

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isn't as illegal as

To be fair, this isn't how law works....there isn't degrees of "wrong" behaviour.  Personal reasons for not liking a mod are fine and dandy, but not excuses for stopping them.
Just noticed this (didn't realize it or must have missed it earlier) but there are varying degrees of "wrong" in the laws, each holding punishments of varying severity. For example (yes it's extreme) Murder, there are three degrees to this charge (1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree), then there's the lesser crime Manslaughter which also has three degrees, each time someone kills another, they get charged with one of these. The varying degrees are dependent on the circumstances of the crime, "Was it intended or an accident? Was it premeditated or spontaneous?" etc. There are similar degrees for each and every law out there each with punishments varying from the proverbial "slap on the wrist" to the death sentence.

seifertemp

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that is not what I meant.  The punishment for those is different but they are ALL CRIMES.  They don't turn a blind eye to mugging any more than they do murder.

Tsetra

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Bottom line here is, Square considers any tearing apart of their games illegal, whether it actually is or not. It doesn't matter if content is ported or made from scratch. The best anyone can do is not do something too blatantly terrible like porting half the game into FF7. Regardless, this rule is a forum rule and not a legal rule and must be followed (at least if you plan on staying here at Qhimm)

Does anymore need to be said, really? This topic ought to be locked.

Xelane

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I originally wasn't going to post here and just read it, but after seeing "get over it learn to make models yourself" like 10 times i have to say:

Why in the hell would i want to spend months upon months just trying to LEARN HOW to mod and THEN actually learn how to make it good enough to actually put it in the game?

It would take too long for someone to even learn how to do it properly and then make a model that is good enough to put in the game compared to someone like APZ who can do it in a fraction of the time due to his time spent doing so BEFOREHAND

(BTW I'm typing in caps just to get eyes focused on them, I'm not as angry as it looks)

And talk of doing so is forbidden as well? That seems downright ludicrous, we used to be able to just tell others how we ripped the models that looked professional and used them in the game because we wanted others to enjoy them as well

and screenshots too? that is actually more ridiculous than talking about it.

To those who agree with halkun, its not that i believe you are wrong. But don't you guys think that copywright laws are going too far? its one thing to claim a work as your own, or to distribute without permission.

but it is something entirely different when even free speech seems to be taken away (with rule 1)

And just clarify this for me: did halkun get Qhimm's approval of making new rules? or does being a mod entitle you to make your own? (its a serious question, I'm not being condescending)

obesebear

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Bottom line here is, Square considers any tearing apart of their games illegal, whether it actually is or not. It doesn't matter if content is ported or made from scratch. The best anyone can do is not do something too blatantly terrible like porting half the game into FF7. Regardless, this rule is a forum rule and not a legal rule and must be followed (at least if you plan on staying here at Qhimm)

Does anymore need to be said, really? This topic ought to be locked.
Exactly
I originally wasn't going to post here and just read it, but after seeing "get over it learn to make models yourself" like 10 times i have to say:
Why in the hell would i want to spend months upon months just trying to LEARN HOW to mod and THEN actually learn how to make it good enough to actually put it in the game?
It would take too long for someone to even learn how to do it properly and then make a model that is good enough to put in the game compared to someone like APZ who can do it in a fraction of the time due to his time spent doing so BEFOREHAND
(BTW I'm typing in caps just to get eyes focused on them, I'm not as angry as it looks)
And talk of doing so is forbidden as well? That seems downright ludicrous, we used to be able to just tell others how we ripped the models that looked professional and used them in the game because we wanted others to enjoy them as well
and screenshots too? that is actually more ridiculous than talking about it.
To those who agree with halkun, its not that i believe you are wrong. But don't you guys think that copywright laws are going too far? its one thing to claim a work as your own, or to distribute without permission.
but it is something entirely different when even free speech seems to be taken away (with rule 1)
And just clarify this for me: did halkun get Qhimm's approval of making new rules? or does being a mod entitle you to make your own? (its a serious question, I'm not being condescending)
Qhimm forums isn't going to take on the lawmakers about who has what rights and what can and can't be done.

This really needs to be locked now, I've read only 1 post against this new rule that sounded mature... Christ... :cry:

Borde

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The problem is not necesarily the law (it might depending on the country, I don't know), but simply Square's over protection on their IPs. I you were to actually face them on the court, I bet you'd win. But who'd like to spend his time and money (quiet a lot of both) defending something that's merely his hobby? Square lawyers know it's extremly unlikely someone would actually fight back, so they can easily crush this site and any other through simple threatening. Not that they need to spend a cent.

I certainly can see why Halkun is adding this new rule. I'm by no means happy with it, but if he thinks it's needed to protect this site, the only thing I can say about it is "Roger".

Senti

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Again, need to respect the rules of the forum, no matter if the rule was made by an admin or a moderator, so if you want to continue projects that goes against this new rule feel free to use my forums. Not to insult anyone, but unlike some I do have the testicular fortitude to stand up to companies when I know I'm in the right. No need to have a hissy fit over a forum rule when there's another forum you can use to avoid the rule. And no, I'm not trying to steal members, just giving an alternative to shutting down projects.

Jari

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Not to insult anyone, but unlike some I do have the testicular fortitude to stand up to companies when I know I'm in the right.

Does your testicular fortitude translate into money, should the need arise?

Because in the case of going to court over something, former does not mean very much without the latter.

And for what it's worth; Borde pretty much summed the issue up in his post.

Senti

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No, but it translates into being well read on the copyright laws, having two uncles that are attorneys (one a county prosecutor) and a third that's a judge, as well as knowing the human psyche well enough to inspire the right amount of fear into a person without a single word in order to make them bend to your will a bit more easily. (You can learn the first part from law books and the last part from either psychology in college or joining the US ARMY, the drill sergeants use it all the time only coupled with threatening words.) You don't need money if you know what you're doing when it comes to court and lawyers, trust me, had 15 sheriffs fired and one jailed for criminal negligence after refusing my worthless brother emergency medical treatment after a car wreck. Turned out the pain my brother was claiming in his neck that their jail house medical examiner said was whiplash was actually 3 broken vertebrae in his neck, and the only money spent was on a few phone calls and about 10 sheets of paper with stamps.

EDIT: Fixed typos.
« Last Edit: 2009-08-01 20:26:06 by Senti »

halkun

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"Copyright" is written with an "R" not a "W".

It's a right to copy.

Senti

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Eh, don't mind the typos, in a poker tournament online for real money, have to support the PPA you know.