Author Topic: [FF7PC-98] The Reunion (OLD THREAD, SAVED FOR POSTERITY)  (Read 1260696 times)

Covarr

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1750 on: 2013-07-03 16:56:11 »
It really depends on who's talking. In Cloud's case, good grammar is in character. In Cid's case, not so much.

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1751 on: 2013-07-03 16:58:40 »
You see it's these kind of things a second or third person irons out.   8)

knightsoftheround

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1752 on: 2013-07-03 17:25:37 »
'Were' throws me, so I'd go with was, unless the speaking character frequently makes that kind of grammatical mistake. Then it would become a character quirk. And pretty sure Cloud isn't messing up grammar all the time. XD

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1753 on: 2013-07-03 18:01:21 »
I dunno you know... in normal speech people make those mistakes all the time.  Listen to a normal convo sometime, you'd be surprised.

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1754 on: 2013-07-03 18:56:49 »
Another classic:

Code: [Select]
Bugenhagen
“Reaching up into the heavens, threatening
to snatch the very stars from the great
city of Midgar. You've seen it, haven't you?”
------------------------------
Bugenhagen
“Well, that's a bad example.
Looking up too much makes you
lose perspective.”

Bugenhagen
“You've seen it,haven't you?
The great Mako metropolis which reaches
up to the heavens,built to grasp at the very
stars themselves.”
------------------------------
Bugenhagen
“It sets a bad example.
Looking up all of the time
makes you lose perspective.”

Code: [Select]
{RED XIII}
“They have come here on a journey
to save the planet.”{NEW}
“Why don't you show them
your apparatus?”
------------------------------
Bugenhagen
“Ho Ho Hoooo.
To save the planet? Ho Ho Hoooo!”

{RED XIII}
“{CLOUD} and the others are on
a journey to save the planet.”{NEW}
“Why don't you show them
your machine?”
------------------------------
Bugenhagen
“Ho,ho,hoooo.
Save the planet!? Ho,ho,hoooo!”{NEW}
“I'm afraid that's impossible.
What could mere humans hope
to accomplish?”

Code: [Select]
Elder Hargo
“I hope great Bugenhagen will take care and
not overexert himself.”{NEW}
“'Ho Ho Hoooo.'
I may be light,
But I'm not as young as Nanaki.”{NEW}
“Oops. That will only get you angry.
You're just like me.
Ho ho ho.”

Elder Hago
“Please take care not to
overexert the great Bugenhagen.”{NEW}
“He might laugh it off with a
"Ho,ho,hoooo",but he's no spring
chicken like Nanaki…”{NEW}
“Ah,he'd probably get cross at me
for saying that. We're not all that
different,you know. Ho,ho,ho.”
« Last Edit: 2013-07-03 19:07:18 by DLPB »

knightsoftheround

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1755 on: 2013-07-03 20:03:38 »
I dunno you know... in normal speech people make those mistakes all the time.  Listen to a normal convo sometime, you'd be surprised.

While that IS true, was there anything non-standard about the original Japanese?  If not, then it's something you're adding and takes away from accuracy, which you're REALLY striving for. Grammar does work quite differently between the languages, but there are still enough differences to be comparable to inaccurate speaking in English.

Writing dialogue is tricky because while you're allowed to make mistakes you wouldn't in non-dialogue writing, you have to ask if it fits the character. If someone speaks proper (be it super proper which sounds stiff/stuck-up (a common problem of second language speakers) or casual proper which is what I imagine Cloud speaks) the rest of the time, it doesn't work to screw them up just once or twice. ...unless the original Japanese did and then while its grammatically incorrect doing it would be faithful to the source material.

People also pause, stutter, and repeat themselves constantly in real conversation, and you can't really transfer that to writing without annoying the hell out of the reader.  There's a trope or something for this I've seen discussed in writing books...

Do know I'm not fighting here, merely stating my side.  I do believe its wrong (again, unless there's something off about the original Japanese), but hey, it's just one sentence. XD

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1756 on: 2013-07-03 20:12:37 »
No, you're making perfect sense.  I'd like to see a proper expert explain things like this somewhere as well, clarify a lot of my questions.  There are a lot of things that differ in script and in real life.  Sometimes I wonder whether films that strive for realism would be best leaving those kinda quirks in.

And more:

Bugenhagen
“You are using Shinra Materia,
   as weapons?”{NEW}
“Materia is highly dense spiritual energy.
   A shred of the Planet's life.
   It should not be used as a weapon.”{NEW}
“We must stop using it…
   or the Planet will be weakened.”

Bugenhagen
“Was Shin-Ra trying to use these…
   as weapons?”{NEW}
“A Materia is concentrated spiritual
   energy… a shard of the planet's life.
   It is not to be used in that fashion.”{NEW}
“We must stop them…
   The planet is far too weak as it is…”
« Last Edit: 2013-07-03 21:44:32 by DLPB »

nfitc1

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1757 on: 2013-07-03 21:11:11 »
That changes the entire theme of the last statement. Is that intentional? It does seem more in character.

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1758 on: 2013-07-03 21:14:58 »
Luksy translated as:

Code: [Select]
Bugenhagen
“Were Shin-Ra trying to use Materia,
as a weapon?”{NEW}
“Materia are concentrated spiritual energy,
shards of the planet's life.
They are not to be used as weapons.”{NEW}
“We must stop them…
the planet is already too weak as it is…”
« Last Edit: 2013-07-03 21:18:44 by DLPB »

knightsoftheround

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1759 on: 2013-07-03 21:43:56 »
That changes the entire theme of the last statement. Is that intentional? It does seem more in character.

Gosh no kidding, and it fits the story much better.

It's so amazing what one line can do, isn't it?

PS - Totally off topic but I love your icon/signature. :D

luksy

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1760 on: 2013-07-03 21:53:33 »
That changes the entire theme of the last statement. Is that intentional? It does seem more in character.

Yeah it's absolutely intentional.

Quote
ブーゲンハーゲン
「神羅はマテリアを武器として
 使おうとしているのか?」{NEW}
「マテリアは高密度な精神エネルギー。
 星のいのちのかけらじゃ。
 武器になどするものではない」{NEW}
「なんとかやめさせなければ……
 ただでさえ星が弱っているのに……」

Whoever originally translated the above for some reason skimmed over "はマテリア" (Materia) in the first line, and also missed the "させ" (causative) part in the second to last line, they were probably reading too fast.

As for the company plural /singular thing I didn't think either was necessarily wrong, although after having a look online it looks like plural is by far more common, unless it's a very small company, which Shin-Ra obviously isn't.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-03 21:55:53 by luksy »

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1761 on: 2013-07-03 23:24:39 »
Should Materia be capitalised?

I am guessing not.  As Luksy has just clarified to me, we don't do the same for diamonds etc.  We don't say "Hey it's a Diamond!"

It's not  a proper noun.

edit

in fact, wikipedia and most other places don't capitalise materia.  Only when it is part of the name like "Black Materia"  as that is specific and unique.

Lightning materia. 
Black Materia.

edit 2

I am going to use materia in sentences like we use diamond.  Both are precious rocks, and the grammar is probably correct that way.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 00:01:55 by DLPB »

Suzaku

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1762 on: 2013-07-04 00:10:27 »
Hey, registered just to talk a bit. Was considering replaying FFVII and wondering if a fan retranslation had happened yet, glad to see someone is working on it.

I've just got a few general suggestions and comments, and I don't have time to play through the entire game with the latest script or read this entire 70 page thread, so bear with me if any of these points have already been addressed.

1. Formatting: I'm not sure if there's a technical reason for indenting the second and third lines of dialogue, but I would suggest eliminating the indent if possible. Likewise, the use of quotation marks within dialogue windows is a convention that has been dropped from modern Final Fantasy localizations, and I would suggest removing them as well. These changes would serve to make the dialogue quite a bit more readable.

2. Grammar: As a general rule, always use proper grammar. Even illiterate people are usually able to speak with some semblance of correct grammar. If a character is dumb, carefree, backwoods, etc., portray it through unique dialect, idiolect, slang, or jargon. Intentionally including bad grammar can distract the reader, especially when it's not obviously intentional.

3. Canon / non-Canon: I understand that, in many ways, you want to produce your very own localization, ignoring the shoddy original translation and any resulting adopted canon, while referring to the official English translations available in Japanese guidebooks -- and I totally respect that. I also really like that you're including options to retain official English terminology.

For me, the ideal translation would be an attempt to create the modern translation that Square Enix itself would make, taking into account the conventions established in in the more recent Compilation titles.

For example, staying true to the idiolects established for characters like Barret, Cid, Cait Sith (and Reeve's parents), and Reno, cross-referencing terms with those appearing in the new titles, and retaining perhaps just a handful of iconic terminology, while correcting/changing everything else as needed. Skimming the thread it looks like you intend to do that, so kudos!

I bring this up only because I'm not sure of exactly what the differences between your localization and the "localization but with original/canon names" are.

4. General localization notes/suggestions while looking at your non-dialogue spreadsheet:

SOLDIER - Should probably be rendered all-caps, as has been the staple in both English and Japanese, to help clarify its status as a named organization and to distinguish it from other possible uses of "soldier," with the exception of the Golden Saucer event where it ties in with Cloud's job.

グリン / グリングリン / クリン - Likely puns on "Gysahl Greens." I'd suggest naming the Guy, Saül, and Chloé. They're all French; Guy and Saül together sound like "Gysahl" and Chloé means "green sprouts." That's just my own pun; yours are also fine.

長老ブーガ - I'd suggest leaving this one as Elder Bughe, partially because "Buga" doesn't do a very good job of conveying the likely connection to Bugenhagen, and it's also one of the few names that was changed between English versions.

悪竜王 ヴァルヴァドス - Vorvadoss is pretty likely given its description, and that's the Japanese transliteration of the Mythos entity.

黒マントの男 - Simplify to "Man in Black," as per the English translation used for the reissued soundtrack.

神羅兵 - Officially localized as "Shinra Troop(s)" in Crisis Core, likely to help distinguish them from SOLDIER by avoiding the word "soldier" altogether. Shinra's Security Department troops are also referred to as infantry, in general.

モス - I'd go with Moss over Moth. Moss makes more sense as a Chocobo name, even if only slightly.

テクニカ - Should be Technica, not Technique.

ブイ, エックス, ゼット - I'd suggest "Vee," "Eks," and either "Zee" or "Zed," perhaps depending on American/British English. Just for fun, y'know.

ピッツァ2000 - I'd suggest P-ZA 2000, to give it more of a "mechanical parts number" look while keeping the "pizza" reference.

General formatting suggestion for locations: use "Area - Sub Area" instead of "Area, Sub Area," as per modern Final Fantasy conventions.

ロケットポートエリア - I'd keep this as Rocket Port Area. My assumption is that this is a callback to airship technology, since ships dock in ports. In this universe I could see people thinking of the launch pad as a port for rockets. "ロケットポート" is also a term that's unique to FFVII.

番街 - Jumping ahead a bit here: I'd strongly suggest keeping it as "Sector." Not only does it sound iconic, but it's already synonymous with district and is a mathematical term referring to a portion of a circle dived by two radii and connected by an arc, which is how the Midgar Sectors are actually divided up (like pieces of pie).

4番街プレート内部 - I'd suggest using "Sector 4 Plate Interior." When you're referring to architecture, the term "interior" sounds a bit more professional, and besides, "Plate Interior" is used in Crisis Core.

コンドルフォートふもと, 絶壁のふもと - "Base of Fort Condor" and "Base of the Cliff."  Base is the more frequently used term when referring to the base of a cliff or mountain. It also sounds more technical and less literary, which better suits the function of a "map" / "location information" header.

大空洞火口 - "Great Cave Crater." This is not specifically referring to the Great Northern Cave, and is also referred to as the Northern Crater (北のクレーター), or simply the Crater (クレーター) at various points in the story. According to Crisis Core, the crater contains another, even larger network of caves, called the Great Cavern of Wonders (驚異の大洞窟) -- note the clever localization of different "cave" kanji as cave/cavern that they did in CC.

大空洞 - "Great Cave," sometimes also called the Great Northern Cave (北の大空洞). A cave is by definition a cavity in the earth, particularily one with a network of tunnels, and as outlined above, this refers to a specific cave within the Northern Crater. So, there's no need to change "cave" to "cavity" or "crater." You could also consider just following suit with the official English localizations, which drop the "Great" rather than the "Northern" (北の) when referring to it by shorthand, leaving you witht the more iconic "Northern Cave".

_番街駅ホーム - Simply "Sector _ Station," as referred to in Crisis Core.

ロケット村 - Village is more accurate, but if I'm being honest, I like Rocket Town way better as a localization.

番街 - Keep as "Sector." See above explanation.

_番街スラム - Keep as just "Sector _ Slums," without the comma. That's the name of the are, not a sub area within the "Sector _" area, if you get what I mean. There are areas within the slum that would be the sub areas.

ミッドガル8番街地下 - "Midgar - Beneath Sector 8" would be my suggestion for this, not sure if there's room.

シルドラ・イン - "Syldra Inn," a likely reference to Syldra (シルドラ), Faris's pet sea monster from FFV. How it relates to an inn in Cosmo Canyon, though Nomura did work on the monster designs for FFV.

神羅ビル・1階ロビー - Formatting should probably be "Shin-Ra Bldg. - 1F Lobby" instead of "Shin-Ra Bldg. 1F, Lobby," and same with the other locations within the building.

古代種の道具屋 - A 道具屋 is actually a "Second-Hand Shop" or "Curio Shop," which I suppose implies that the old man is reselling goods that were sold to him, rather than it actually being any sort of "general store." I personally prefer "Curio Shop," though he isn't selling any curios.

時の大穴 - I feel like there has to be an English pun that would better convey this. I'm leaning towards "Time Sinkhole."

愛の巣箱, 恋人の巣箱 - "Lovers' Hive" and "Honey's Hive," instead of "Love Nest" and "Lover's Hive," maybe?

おしおき部屋 - I'd suggest maybe simply "The Dungeon," evoking the obvious BDSM connotation.

武器屋 - Splitting hairs here, but I suggest using "Weapon Shop," as per Final Fantasy conventions. If you want to break conventions, I'd suggest "Arms Dealer."

ウータイ五強聖の塔 - The official localization for the group in Crisis Core is "Five Saints," which I think better conveys the original name. If you have to choose, I think "Pagoda of Five Saints" looks bette than "Pagoda of the 5 Saints," and gives off a touch of that Asian mysticism vibe, but that's just me.

十字手裏剣 - In FFXI this is localized as "Juji Shuriken."

突撃ラッパ - "Battle Trumpet" or "War Trumpet," both have been used in official localizations now. Battle Trumpet was used the most recently, in Airborne Brigade, but that just cribbed the translation from the original FFVII. I might lean towards "War Trumpet."

不倶戴天 - This is an intersting one, being a yojijukugo. It has two meanings, one being "Nonconformist" and the other being "Mortal Enemy," while the literal kanji meaning is "Never Together Under Heaven." I don't think there could ever be a perfect translation for this, but "Eternal Nemesis" sounds badass.

ギヤマンヘアピン - This could probably have a more accurate translation. It refers to faux diamonds, IE glass cut in the style of a diamond. "CZ Diamond Hairpin" might be closer to what this is trying to convey, though less literally accurate.

方天畫戟 - This is apparantly referred to as "Sky Piercer" in contemporary translations of The Water Margin, from which the name originates. Worth consideration.

グローランス - "Radiant Lance," this is a recurring lance in the Final Fantasy series and is pretty consistently translated as such in modern localizations, though "Glow Lance" is used a few times.

天の叢雲 - Rendered with hyphens as "Ame-no-Murakumo" in FFXII. Worth consideration.

風魔手裏剣 - Just "Fuma Shuriken" in modern translations, Hepburn be damned.

ミスリル - "Mythril" is the established English translation across the entire franchise. I say keep it that way, regardless of Tolkien.

オーガニク - "Ogrenix" / "Organyx" -- there is absolutely no consistency here in localization and the latter is more recently used (FFXIII). The Japanese fans have no idea of exactly what it's supposed to mean, either. I've always thought that it's supposed to be "Ogrenix," as a parallel to the recuring "Ogrekiller" axe (as opposed to Nyx, which is the name of a Greek goddess).

パルチザン - "Partisan," another one of those recurring weapons with consistent translations and is the most commonly used variant of the word in general use. Just because the Japanese uses ザ doesn't mean you need to follow suit.

円月輪 - "Moonring Blade," it's now pretty consistently localized as such across the Final Fantasy series.

青龍偃月刀 - Like Sky Piercer, you could opt for English. "Green Dragon Glaive" or "Dragon Glaive," possibly if that fits. Probably doesn't.

Wマシンガン - Might not be enough room, but "Dual Machinegun" instead of Double might work. They're using "Dualcast" as the official localization of W-Magic these days.

軍手 - Yes, made out of cotton, but the term refers to work gloves (made of strong cotton). I'd suggest keeping "Work Gloves."

蛇矛 - If you go Chinese, "Shemao," otherwise "Snake Lance" or "Serpent Lance." It was weilded by Zhang Fei in RotTK.

And with that, I've run out of time to go through stuff.

I may post more suggestions when I have more time.

nfitc1

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1763 on: 2013-07-04 00:21:50 »
I like the retranslated intention. Adds some urgency to the situation (which I always thought FFVII lacked).

Corporate entities are always singular when referring to the corporation (e.g. Shin-Ra's activities). Employees, or groups of employees, are always plural. Then it can be short-handed as "the Shin-Ra" meaning the people associated with the Shin-Ra corporation.

It's the same as:
The team was successful!
Vs.
The players were successful!

Suzaku

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1764 on: 2013-07-04 00:26:09 »
Then it can be short-handed as "the Shin-Ra" meaning the people associated with the Shin-Ra corporation.

It's the same as:
The team was successful!
Vs.
The players were successful!
That doesn't sound right to me. That would mean that people would be saying, "the Apple sure do design great products!"

It's either "Apple sure does design great products," or "the Apple employees sure do design great products!"

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1765 on: 2013-07-04 00:29:17 »
Suzaku - won't quote the entire thing but I can see plenty of valid suggestions in there, I'll go over them this evening with Dan.

And yeah, the original translation used "the Shinra" all the time, which always sounded off to me.

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1766 on: 2013-07-04 00:43:15 »
Quote
SOLDIER - Should probably be rendered all-caps, as has been the staple in both English and Japanese, to help clarify its status as a named organization and to distinguish it from other possible uses of "soldier," with the exception of the Golden Saucer event where it ties in with Cloud's job.

I can add this to the "cannon names" for installer.  It is very bad grammar to use SOLDIER.  No other work out there would do that, and it was obviously a bad localisation decision that has stuck.  For the official translation, I am definitely sticking with Soldier for the organisation and soldier for the main usage, as is proper grammar.

Quote
グリン / グリングリン / クリン - Likely puns on "Gysahl Greens." I'd suggest naming the Guy, Saül, and Chloé. They're all French; Guy and Saül together sound like "Gysahl" and Chloé means "green sprouts." That's just my own pun; yours are also fine.

Are you saying this is a likely origin for the name?

Quote
長老ブーガ - I'd suggest leaving this one as Elder Bughe, partially because "Buga" doesn't do a very good job of conveying the likely connection to Bugenhagen, and it's also one of the few names that was changed between English versions.

Correct, but the Japanese name doesn't either.  It specifically ends -a.

Quote
黒マントの男 - Simplify to "Man in Black," as per the English translation used for the reissued soundtrack.

At times it may be wiser to do this, sometimes however the dialogue specifically calls for a description of the man.

Quote
神羅兵 - Officially localized as "Shinra Troop(s)" in Crisis Core, likely to help distinguish them from SOLDIER by avoiding the word "soldier" altogether. Shinra's Security Department troops are also referred to as infantry, in general.

That's a clever move, and I may use it sometimes.  The way I look at Soldier is like the Marines.  "I was a marine"  "The Marines"

Quote
モス - I'd go with Moss over Moth. Moss makes more sense as a Chocobo name, even if only slightly.
Agreed.

Quote
テクニカ - Should be Technica, not Technique.
I thought was French?  Any case, if so I will change the documentation.


Quote
ピッツァ2000 - I'd suggest P-ZA 2000, to give it more of a "mechanical parts number" look while keeping the "pizza" reference.

The meant pizza so I have to keep it.  They prob did this as a joke on the fact Midgar looks like one.
Quote
General formatting suggestion for locations: use "Area - Sub Area" instead of "Area, Sub Area," as per modern Final Fantasy conventions.

The difference is small, and it would mean introducing 2 more chars.  FF7 has a limit of 23 and this would be a problem.  I will have to stick with comma.

Quote
ロケットポートエリア - I'd keep this as Rocket Port Area. My assumption is that this is a callback to airship technology, since ships dock in ports. In this universe I could see people thinking of the launch pad as a port for rockets. "ロケットポート" is also a term that's unique to FFVII.

There is no such thing as a rocket port and it seems very unlikely that the writers really intended that.  I understand your point on it being unique, but it sounds wrong.  I will discuss this.

Quote
番街 - Jumping ahead a bit here: I'd strongly suggest keeping it as "Sector." Not only does it sound iconic, but it's already synonymous with district and is a mathematical term referring to a portion of a circle dived by two radii and connected by an arc, which is how the Midgar Sectors are actually divided up (like pieces of pie).

Sector is kept in installer option, but is definitely wrong and cannot be included in what we consider the new localisation. The whole point about midgar was that they were districts with names... they were not merely sections, and the Japanese makes that clear, regardless of the retcons that happened later.


Quote
4番街プレート内部 - I'd suggest using "Sector 4 Plate Interior." When you're referring to architecture, the term "interior" sounds a bit more professional, and besides, "Plate Interior" is used in Crisis Core.

I haven't finalised the plate business yet, and it will probably be changed to plate interior at end.  I need more info on the precise architecture of Midgar.
Quote
コンドルフォートふもと, 絶壁のふもと - "Base of Fort Condor" and "Base of the Cliff."  Base is the more frequently used term when referring to the base of a cliff or mountain. It also sounds more technical and less literary, which better suits the function of a "map" / "location information" header.

I thought foot of was quite good, and the Japanese uses foot.

Quote
大空洞火口 - "Great Cave Crater." This is not specifically referring to the Great Northern Cave, and is also referred to as the Northern Crater (北のクレーター), or simply the Crater (クレーター) at various points in the story. According to Crisis Core, the crater contains another, even larger network of caves, called the Great Cavern of Wonders (驚異の大洞窟) -- note the clever localization of different "cave" kanji as cave/cavern that they did in CC.

Crisis core is talking bollocks, and this is the original game.  I don't take any other material except the current original on board except in some circumstances.  The original game makes it clear that the translation is "Northern Great Cavity"  Or Great Cavity of the North.  I have used Crater for localisation.  It certainly is not cave.  Crisis Core would have made use the word "Gaia" as the planet's name, but I can't do that.  I don't even recognise any of these spin offs as part of the FF7 universe, I think they are bad money making schemes that produced a ton of inconsistencies with the original story.  I won't take on board anything that was not there originally :)

Quote
ロケット村 - Village is more accurate, but if I'm being honest, I like Rocket Town way better as a localization.

It's not a town, so it can;t be called one.


Quote
シルドラ・イン - "Syldra Inn," a likely reference to Syldra (シルドラ), Faris's pet sea monster from FFV. How it relates to an inn in Cosmo Canyon, though Nomura did work on the monster designs for FFV.

It is definitely Schildra fro, the German "shield".  The Japanese is clearly not a syl sound.
Quote
神羅ビル・1階ロビー - Formatting should probably be "Shin-Ra Bldg. - 1F Lobby" instead of "Shin-Ra Bldg. 1F, Lobby," and same with the other locations within the building.

I had a long think about this, but there are not 3 lobbies.  There are 3 floors.

Quote
古代種の道具屋 - A 道具屋 is actually a "Second-Hand Shop" or "Curio Shop," which I suppose implies that the old man is reselling goods that were sold to him, rather than it actually being any sort of "general store." I personally prefer "Curio Shop," though he isn't selling any curios.

The name sounded... crap.  General works best. I will add that note to documentation.

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時の大穴 - I feel like there has to be an English pun that would better convey this. I'm leaning towards "Time Sinkhole."

Disagree  :-P

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愛の巣箱, 恋人の巣箱 - "Lovers' Hive" and "Honey's Hive," instead of "Love Nest" and "Lover's Hive," maybe?

That would be a massive stretch and not in line with what was intended.

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おしおき部屋 - I'd suggest maybe simply "The Dungeon," evoking the obvious BDSM connotation.

disagreed.  :-P

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武器屋 - Splitting hairs here, but I suggest using "Weapon Shop," as per Final Fantasy conventions. If you want to break conventions, I'd suggest "Arms Dealer."

Not necessary.

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ウータイ五強聖の塔 - The official localization for the group in Crisis Core is "Five Saints," which I think better conveys the original name. If you have to choose, I think "Pagoda of Five Saints" looks bette than "Pagoda of the 5 Saints," and gives off a touch of that Asian mysticism vibe, but that's just me.

Saint is a bad translation.  We discussed this at length and it became clear..  the masters inside are not saints for one thing.

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十字手裏剣 - In FFXI this is localized as "Juji Shuriken."

It is a proper weapon? in real life?  Do you have a link?


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不倶戴天 - This is an intersting one, being a yojijukugo. It has two meanings, one being "Nonconformist" and the other being "Mortal Enemy," while the literal kanji meaning is "Never Together Under Heaven." I don't think there could ever be a perfect translation for this, but "Eternal Nemesis" sounds badass.

Glad you like it, that was one of mine.

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ギヤマンヘアピン - This could probably have a more accurate translation. It refers to faux diamonds, IE glass cut in the style of a diamond. "CZ Diamond Hairpin" might be closer to what this is trying to convey, though less literally accurate.

Ultimania says specifically glass, and there's no reason to change it really...
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方天畫戟 - This is apparantly referred to as "Sky Piercer" in contemporary translations of The Water Margin, from which the name originates. Worth consideration.

That's an english translation of a foreign weapon.  Same as Murasame and Masamune has their own.

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グローランス - "Radiant Lance," this is a recurring lance in the Final Fantasy series and is pretty consistently translated as such in modern localizations, though "Glow Lance" is used a few times.

The Japanese is glow lance.

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天の叢雲 - Rendered with hyphens as "Ame-no-Murakumo" in FFXII. Worth consideration.

Discussed with Japanese speakers and it can be rendered without.

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風魔手裏剣 - Just "Fuma Shuriken" in modern translations, Hepburn be damned.

Probably because they don't have the u with the macron on font.  I added it.,

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ミスリル - "Mythril" is the established English translation across the entire franchise. I say keep it that way, regardless of Tolkien.

It's an erroneous translation and should be changed in all ff media.

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オーガニク - "Ogrenix" / "Organyx" -- there is absolutely no consistency here in localization and the latter is more recently used (FFXIII). The Japanese fans have no idea of exactly what it's supposed to mean, either. I've always thought that it's supposed to be "Ogrenix," as a parallel to the recuring "Ogrekiller" axe (as opposed to Nyx, which is the name of a Greek goddess).

I am feeling pretty sure of Ogrenix or Ogrenyx.  Both are possible and likely.  I went into it a lot, and those are the ones I came up with.

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パルチザン - "Partisan," another one of those recurring weapons with consistent translations and is the most commonly used variant of the word in general use. Just because the Japanese uses ザ doesn't mean you need to follow suit.

A partiz(s)an is a real weapon 

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円月輪 - "Moonring Blade," it's now pretty consistently localized as such across the Final Fantasy series.

and it's incorrect.

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青龍偃月刀 - Like Sky Piercer, you could opt for English. "Green Dragon Glaive" or "Dragon Glaive," possibly if that fits. Probably doesn't.

It's a chinese weapon and has to be kept that way, fictional or otherwise.

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軍手 - Yes, made out of cotton, but the term refers to work gloves (made of strong cotton). I'd suggest keeping "Work Gloves."

Work gloves are not made of cotton?  Also ultimania shows crappy cotton gloves. 

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蛇矛 - If you go Chinese, "Shemao," otherwise "Snake Lance" or "Serpent Lance." It was weilded by Zhang Fei in RotTK.

Hmm  I will check the chinese. But it does look like Snake Spear is a real named weapon, and Shemao is not as such.



Thanks for those.  I am sorry if much of that isn't being changed, but as I have noted previously, that document and the translation / localisation is pretty much solidified and not being changed.  I have gone through all these items and names 100 times, and rationalised the decisions for each.  8)  I will discuss these with Luksy as well.  Nevertheless, some of your suggestions will be used, so it's been worth while.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 02:28:01 by DLPB »

Ver Greeneyes

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1767 on: 2013-07-04 01:31:44 »
Regarding 'was' versus 'were', this might actually be an AmE versus BrE difference (not necessarily in that order). Here's the relevant part of the Wikipedia article - with all the usual warnings about using Wikipedia as a source (but this one does cite sources at various points, at least).

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1768 on: 2013-07-04 01:37:52 »
Regarding 'was' versus 'were', this might actually be an AmE versus BrE difference (not necessarily in that order). Here's the relevant part of the Wikipedia article - with all the usual warnings about using Wikipedia as a source (but this one does cite sources at various points, at least).

Yes it does seem as though both was and were can be used in the context of Shin-Ra, esp when it comes to characters speaking about it....  Even outside brit/amer issues.  There doesn't seem to be any real black card for such usage in script from what I can see.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 02:16:50 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1769 on: 2013-07-04 02:34:44 »
However... another reason it may sound ok to me and Luksy more than others is this >

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/were
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(Northern England) was.

 :-D

See where I live, we can use were and was totally interchangeably, and it occurs all the time in speech.

edit

OK so I've done a bit of reading, and "was" is used far more with a company  like Microsoft (although were is also used). 

BBC has many instances of were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lancashire/plain/A692750

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was precisely that Microsoft were damaging innovation by using monopolistic practices.

Again, use of was and were, and this time by professionals.


« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 03:03:52 by DLPB »

Yarow12

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Re: BEACAUSE - Final Fantasy VII Retranslation Project
« Reply #1770 on: 2013-07-04 02:51:22 »
I speak for myself in all of this.

When "Shin-Ra" is referring to a single entity (company or person) then it is singular and "was" should follow when needed.

Materia is like the word "fish".

Remember that Final Fantasy VII is it's own world. It has its own ways.

I've checked the remaining red and green names in the document.
On some of them, y'all seemed to have made the right call. On the rest of them, I have no idea.

Code: [Select]
{CLOUD}
“I couldn't finish 'em.
This is gonna get complicated.”

“{AERIS}?
How did you know that name?
You must be…”{NEW}

{RED XIII}
“They have come here on a journey
to save the planet.”{NEW}
“Why don't you show them
your apparatus?”

Bugenhagen
“Reaching up into the heavens, threatening
to snatch the very stars from the great
city of Midgar. You've seen it, haven't you?”

Elder Hargo
“I hope great Bugenhagen will take care and
not overexert himself.”{NEW}

About Cloud's. That's the way he talks. To me, it's relaxed English. Proper enough to understand, but chilled out at the same time.
About Aeris's. Though I don't know the context nor what was said beforehand and afterward, I see nothing wrong with what she said.
About RED XIII's. How would that character speak in that moment? Would he say "they" or "Cloud and his friends"? If "apparatus" fits the context, you mightest well leave it in.
About Bugenhagen. That seems speech worthy. Just do something about the comma in the first line. Replace it with a "..." perhaps?
About Elder Hargo. “I hope the great Bugenhagen will take care not to overexert himself.”

Code: [Select]
Bugenhagen
“Was Shin-Ra trying to use Materia,
as a weapon?”{NEW}
“Materia are concentrated spiritual energy,
shards of the planet's life.
They are not to be used as weapons.”{NEW}
“We must stop them…
The planet is far too weak as it is…”

I combined both translations into what seemed to work best.

It really depends on who's talking. In Cloud's case, good grammar is in character. In Cid's case, not so much.

^This.
Be careful to preserve character personalities. If their styles of speech (Barret) are removed then they'll all sound exactly the same.
Voice differentiation. Keep it.
Ever read Foresight by EJ McBride? The Russians, man. They all sound the same. Even the only three important Russian characters sound exactly the same. There were times when I wasn't sure which one was talking. They weren't even in the same chapters.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 03:05:42 by Yarow12 »

DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1771 on: 2013-07-04 02:56:41 »
The reason "'em" doesn't work in the other sentence is because Cloud is referring to Rufus.  "Couldn't finish him" works, and "'em" means "them".  There is no set standard to how the grammar works from Japanese to English... the languages are totally different (the localiser for Crisis Core / BC etc just used their own fixed standard, and I am not bound by it).  I have decided to do what wiki and others seem to have done and treat materia as the word diamond.

Thus

"Diamonds are expensive"
"Materias are expensive"

"Diamond is expensive"
"Materia is expensive"

"I want that diamond"
"I want that materia"

« Last Edit: 2013-07-04 03:06:16 by DLPB »

Yarow12

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Re: BEACAUSE - Final Fantasy VII Retranslation Project
« Reply #1772 on: 2013-07-04 03:06:56 »
Though I don't agree with your Materia decision, I still look forward to using Beacause when it's officially released.

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1773 on: 2013-07-04 03:07:34 »
SOLDIER - Keep in mind the original Japanese font only had upper case chars, event if they intended the name to be in caps it really doesn't look that great in casual conversation, it makes it sound like the characters are walking press releases. Try TURBOLAX today!

Schildra - Japanese can't naturally express the sound "si" (or not without some acrobatics like セィ), so Suzaku could be on to something.

Cross Shuriken - The reason for keeping Japanese names in Japanese is because there is no equivalent in English, hence Shuriken makes sense, but 十字 is adequately translated as "cross".

Hairpin - Keeping it as diamond is confusing, and in any case ギヤマン is used to refer to a variety of "olde-style" glassware.

Ama no Murakumo - As a side note, English translations of the Kojiki always hyphenate everything and it's INCREDIBLY annoying imo.


Cotton/work glove - It's just a name for work gloves, yes they're usually made of cotton but work gloves might make more sense.


DLPB_

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Re: The Reunion [IN PROGRESS]
« Reply #1774 on: 2013-07-04 03:10:49 »
I'll discuss the materia issue with Luksy more, but it certainly seems better grammar to treat it as a precious stone (which is what it is) than to make up my own grammar (which will then end up being criticised too, and have loads of inconsistences).   The same could be said of Chocobo.  I don't like Chocobos plural but it works and is proper grammar.

The vast number of usages won't need altering anyway simply because they start "Materia is" in the same way that we use "Diamond is" to refer to all diamonds.