WEIRD FF8 ENDING?

[RC]

Hi, guys!  I liked FF8 a lot and I played the entired game a couple of times.  There are just things that I don't understand, especially the ending:
1.What's the point of Squall visiting the old stone house and talk to Edea.
2.How come Edea didn't know who Squall was?
3.After talking to Edea, Edea said that the future squall shouldn't be there and squall left.  That mean the past has changed, but if the past has changed, basically Ultimecia didn't exist.  If she doesn't exist...Why would Irvine, Selphie, and all of them get together at a party again?  How do they meet?
4.Why did Squall see weird events around Rinoa?  What's the point of it?
I hope someone can answer these for me.  Thanks.

[The Skillster]

ok these should really be self-explanatory, oh well:
1. squall didnt remember, he just arrived there by chance/destiny, his arrival in the past triggered the making of seed by edea.
2. she did relise who it was, thats why she told him to leave-said something about only one squall should be here.
3.that ultimecia was from the future, she hadnt died yet (she had to pass on her powers to die properly) so edea took her powers, and became a sorceress. the guys party because they are in their time (i think) and the world is saved from ultimecia.
4. the point was that he had forgotten who rinoa was, and forgot his promise to rinoa (about going to the flower fields) so thats why rinoa appeard to vanish from squalls memory...

[Caddberry]

? #2 There was little squall if you remember... and thats what she was talking about. She said only 1 should be here and that was Squall in the beginning when he was little ( THE PAST ) He finds his way back to his time.. but Ultimecia passes her powers to edea in the past.. thats how edea becomes a sorceress in the first place.. i think.. and thats why ultimecia lives without time.. until you crush her guts out   LoL

[Sukaeto]

Edea acually became a sorceress at a young age.  Edea told Squall that she "became a sorceress twice" and that "the second time, that sorceress was a threat to her children."

At the end, you find out 'that sorceress' was Ultimecia.

[jose]

waht puzzles me is that WTF does he see rinoa like in a shadow type thing htat is weird and what is up wiht hte ending anyway it is completly wierd

[Threesixty]

Man....I remember writing about this in the Eidos forum.....unfortunately for me...it's been erased.....maybe another time I'll write about the ending again.......

......I'm probably gonna spell the names wrong........

To put it short....Squall lost hope. He kept on seeing Rinoa's death.....You have to understand that the group was traveling through time. They found the castle because they were all lead to it...and their bond to each other kept them from being absorbed/disappearing....After they defeated the Sorceress, they had to focus on their own timeline. Everyone didn't have a problem doing this....except for Squall. He was troubled with Ellone's disappearance when he was young....and he went to that timeline instead.....Apparently the Sorceress was following, Squall through the time travel. Edea recieves the dying Sorceress'powers, and becomes one of the most powerful Sorceress of that timeline, the only other equal would be Adel. Perhapse this is why Ultimecia could munipulate Edea and later Rinoa, so easily....her powers flowed through both of them....a loop of sorts...If Ultimecia's powers stayed in the future...none of this would have happened. I know what your thinging....Adel was controlled by Ultimecia, too. Well, I don't think she really was. I think Adel knew exactly what was going on. whereas Edea and Rinoa had no idea that they were being controlled. Besides, Adel wouldn't have been released if Edea and Rinoa weren't under Ultimecia's control, first.

Edea tell Squall that he doesn't belong in this timeframe and sends him back to the, "end of time" . He then focuses on Rinoa....but he can't remember her face....it's slipping....he's slipping....falling deeper and deeper....he finally recalls her face....her beauty.....then the helmet cracks......PANIC!!!.....she's Gone!....DEAD!!!!......She has to be!!!.......all hope is lost.....Squall is lost....

Rinoa is a sorceress......she uses a magical feather....a feather of Angels.... The feather guides Rinoa to Squall.....when Squall opens his eyes he sees Rinoa's face.... anyway....he immediately remembers his promise; and they end up in that field of flowers.....Squall brought them back to the correct Timeline and to that field....Rinoa didn't have to help him...she just had to revive his hope. And that happens when Squall sees that she is alive.

Ok...Ok... maybe that wasn't so short.....I just could stop typing......

BTW: Edea was a sorceress before Ultimecia gave-up her powers....it's even clauseable to say that Edea took Ultimecia's powers...Edea had received the powers of a sorceress when she was young....she's says this in the game. I have a feeling that because of this small amount of power that was given to her, when she was young. Edea was able to take Ultimecia's powers away from her whether Ultimecia willed it or not. But this isn't supported in the game...it's just a conclusion I came up with......

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited January 18, 2001).]

[Caddberry]

Very well stated.. I think that covers everything.. but was there any significance to griever? (Squalls Ring) Besides the odvious i mean does anyone have any other ideas.. sides maybe Squall had to face himself sorta thing.

[RC]

Cool.  Thanks.  But everyone's misunderstanding me, I think.  My biggest question is:
when squall travels back to his childhood to see Edea, Ultimecia passes her powers to Edea.  But then Ultimecia is dead.  So the past has changed.  Later squall gets back to his own timeline.  But the problem is the past has already changed, Ultimecia is dead, not in the future anymore.  Why would all of them (squall, irvine, rinoa, selphie) all have a party together?  After all, it is all the problems caused by Ultimecia that brought them all together (especially Rinoa and squall).  If the past has changed, then how the heck do they all meet together again?  It doesn't make sense to me.

[Threesixty]

Ultimecia...isn't born yet.....you can't change fate.....

When Squall's World (Timeline) reaches Ultimecia's World (Timeline), without any time traveling, through Normal passing of time, Ultimecia will do exactly the same thing. It's almost as if all forms of time are moving along at the same time.

If you focus on Squall's Timeline, Ultimecia is born in the future and dies in the past. It's a time loop. After Squall defeats Ultimecia, in her timeline......., optimisticly time will then continue on. Pestimisticly, Time will Loop forever. Almost like that movie, "Ground Hog's Day."
(I know time was really compressed, but it's easier, for me, to explaining it this way.)

I suggest you play the game, "The Longest Journey". It gives a lot of insight to this type of thinking. And does a very good job of it too. Very good Story in that game.

Don't think to hard about time travel and it's consequences.....answering the meaning of life would be easier.

Too many theories...and the only proof is our imaginations.

Think about, Dragon Ball Z's Android sega. It shows that there are many different timelines and traveling to one of them may not be your original timeline.....but an alternative one. The series calles, "Sliders" is another example of this.

Lots of Sci-Fi shows do consequences theory...A Pardox....Kill your grandfather and you will cease to exist....change the past and you won't remember you real past, only the alternative one.

There is a very fine line between fate and a pardox.....I think FF8 is more about fate. You can't change fate no matter what you do. It was Squalls fate to kill Ultimecia, and Edea's fate to absorb Ultimecia's powers. The circle had to be completed.

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited January 18, 2001).]

[Ged]

1. He came there by luck (btw, remember the begining!!)
2. When?
3. Awwww... You didn't pay attention playing the game... Well.. Ultimecia is from the future, and Edea from the past. Squall & others are in the 'middle', and there is a time compression that puts the past, present and future togheter. When they kill Ultimecia (as I think) the results of ze time kompression are going backwards (or sumthin)...
4. He CAN'T remember who she is.. Again, remember the begining!

It is not HIS fault he ended up there..Ultimecia is the future.. She is 'not yet'..
Why they meet? The time kompression ends?

[Anonymous]

Cool discussion.  I see that some of the things are confusing.  Some of the people who tried to answer even don't know what they are talking about.  Well, good luck, RC.

BTW, anyone know when FF9 PC is coming out?  Or is it ever going to be made?

[Srethron Askvelhtnod]

For your FF9PC question. Lots of speculation both ways, but nothing concrete. Square has said in an email, that they "have no plans for at this time" for FF9PC. General consensus seems to be that FF9PC is unlikely to happen.

[The Skillster]

i dont think ff9 is gonna happen at all.
that square soft team has lost its appetite.
or is it the fact that the style may not attract the regular PC gamer?
check this link: http://squaregamer.com/news/items/0,0411,180321,00.shtml" TARGET=_blank>http://squaregamer.com/news/items/0,0411,180321,00.shtml
tells you everything, ff9 may not exist on the PC  

[Sukaeto]

As usuall, 360, those are great insights.

[Black Widow]

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the term "Paradox"? Or perhaps you should watch Stargate for clues to what cannot happen, then extrapolate from there to the possible happenings.  

[Terence Fergusson]

Agreed.  FF8 *is* about fate.  Ellone gives the most telling clue... she learned that no matter how much she tried, she couldn't change the past with her power.  She was merely fulfilling what had happened.

What some people don't realise is that it is not because Edea absorbed Ultimecia's powers that she became a pawn of Ultimecia.  The true reason is the Ellone Machine... that is, Ultimecia sent herself back in time in much the same way Squall was sent back into Laguna.  This is the exact reason why Squall gets to see Ultimecia when Ellone sends him into Rinoa while they're in space.

Overall, if you think too much about FF8, it's a depressing turn of events; everything is prophesised.  You can't change the past... but because of that... you can't change the future either.  All you can do is live.

Don't think about that too much though.  It *is* a depressing fact, but humans have shown great capacity to ignore the horrible truth and cling to their own securities.  That's how most people survive.

[Threesixty]

Didn't Ellone tell Squall that he didn't need her (Ellone's) help, after all? That he did it all by himself, when Rinoa was floating in space. Rinoa is a sorceress at this point in the game....so it's possible that she could read Squalls thoughts and hit the Reserve Air Release....or she was reaching for her rings and hit the button by accident. I don't remember Squall seeing Ultimecia in Space.

And there is no paradox if there is no future. We are following Squalls Timeline, not Ultimecia's. Ultimecia's Timeline has the parodox.......but to Squall's there is no future....no fate after Ultimecia's defeat....everything is a new beginning, from there on forth....the past is still the past and can't be changed.

(You can really warp the Time Machine/paradox, Theories anyway you like....   There is no way to prove any of them...and uhh, if this conflicts with my old post, you'll have to forgive me...I wrote that quite some time ago...I doubt that it's in conflict, though. Back to the Future III, anyone?)

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 04, 2001).]

[Terence Fergusson]

"The past is still the past and can't be changed."  That much is true.  But introduce time travel, and if the above statement is still true, then you also get another true statement: "The future is still the future and can't be changed."

Why?  Ultimecia started a lot of this by time travelling to *HER* past.  A past that she cannot change.  Thus, nothing she does is going to make a difference.

From that, we also extrapolate that nothing Squall does is going to make a difference either.

There is no paradox.  Ultimecia is born, lives, and dies with no problems.  We can't even be sure that Ultimecia's power is in an eternal loop, because it's possible that Ultimecia never inherits the power Edea gave to Rinoa who will give to the sorceress to come after her.

Of course, this does mean that between Squall's timeline and Ultimecia's timeline we likely have double the Sorceress power floating about, but that's more logical than a power that has no origin but itself.

Really, there's actually very few things that loop in FF8.  The main thing that loops eternally is the idea of SeeD.  That's an idea that fate took care of... it *HAS* no origin.  There is no before to it.

[Terence Fergusson]

Oh, and as for seeing Ultimecia in space... Squall doesn't.  He sees Ultimecia while Ellone has sent him *into* Rinoa.  You *do* recall that little scene before he jumps out in a spacesuit to save Rinoa?  The scene where you finally get to see Ultimecia for the first time?

[The Skillster]

hmm, was that a reserve air button? i just thought cos she was a sorceress now she DIDNT need oxygen so she just opened the helemt thingy  

[Threesixty]

LOL....do you really, really want to argue about this?

OK...lets begin the argument (these are fun)

If you don't believe in fate (I don't) Then the present is unwritten...The future hasn't happened yet, so it is always changing. We are following Squall's Timeline. Since Ultimecia, from the future, is jacking around with Squall's timeline, Squall's timeline is following the rules of fate (as long as a future is written Squall's present is truly the past. (That could be why Squall/Ellone can't change his/her past.) After Squall defeats Ultimecia, the future becomes unwritten. Squall's timeline now becomes the present....and the future is finally an unknown factor.
 
Think about the series movie, "Back to the Future" In the last chapter there was no text on the newspaper, because the future became unwritten. After Mcfly chose not to drag race that other car, he broke the circle of fate.

There were several small paradoxs in these movies....but lets not focus on that part....If a paradox really happened Mcfly wouldn't never had remember anything that happend before the paradox and that would mean anything that the 3 movies showed us would be unknown to Mcfly. The movie really didn't follow the paradox rule. It would have sucked as a movie if they followed the paradox rule, anyway. I'm sure that's why Square choice to make Squal's past in FF8 focus on the rules of fate. Less chance of Paradox errors. FF8 is about fate....only after Ultimecia's ultimate defeat is the circle of fate broken.

If you go in the past and kill your grandfather....you should thus cease to exist...and your grandfathers timeline will become the new present, thus sealing his death and any of his family tree's death from then on forth.....
Is that deep enough for ya?

See, FF8 DOES have a happy ending.

And nope; don't remember any scene with Ultimecia during the Space sequence (are you thinking of Adel, maybe?)....I'm replaying the game right now (have to see the cut scenes on my new 1.2 Athlon; they look pretty cool without all the sound studdering and frame drops that my P200mmx had)...currently just began on 2nd disk.....probably be at the space scene in a few weeks. I really don't remember seeing Ultimecia before the ending (end of Disk 4) unless you count the part where Rinoa becomes unconscience...but even then it's just a flash of light. I do remember Squall being dumped into different timelines....Oh well, I'll know for sure by the end of next month, at the very latest.

I'm pretty sure it was the reserve air....because I remember there being something in the game that talked about the reserve air. Can't remember if it was in a certain dialog or some text on the background. Why she pushed the button? It's probably because she was reaching for the rings on her necklace. I don't know...Something floats away from her space suit in that scene. I doubt it was the helmet latch, she doesn't take the helmet off until she gets inside.

[Terence Fergusson]

Ah, but Back to the Future III didn't have the fact: "You can't change the past."  In *ALL* the Back to the Futures, you *could* change the past.  And that's what happened.

Back to the Future uses a screwy version of the parallel dimension theory, if you watch closely.  That means that when Marty goes into the past, he is backtracking down the probability line back to the root of his current dimension.  However, when he makes a change there, he is altering his position on the probability axis, so travelling into the future sends him along where *that* direction would've taken.

Why is the version it use screwy?  Because of the way it deals with the grandfather problem... it doesn't.  In fact, it really doesn't make much sense at all, timeline-wise... what they focused on was writing a good story.  Marty wouldn't disappear over time just because his future parents haven't kissed... in fact, that whole scene with his hand disappearing is messed up, because they were about to kiss anyway.  So why did it happen?  Drama.

FF8 does *not* use the same timeline mechanics as Back to the Future does.  Ellone's power cannot change the past.  Ellone's power is used by Dr Odine to create a machine that utilises this same power.  Ultimecia uses this machine to go into the past... a past she cannot change.  Which present is correct?  Which past cannot be changed?  The answer?  Both presents are correct, and both pasts can't be changed.  This is key to understanding FF8.

In addition, a paradox cannot occur if the past cannot be changed.  Using FF8 timeline mechanics, you cannot kill your own grandfather.  This is because, in the past, your grandfather was never killed.  You could travel back in time... but all you'd be doing is fulfilling fate.  You would have gone back in time anyway.  But because of this fate, there is no way you can kill your father.  This is exactly why Ellone couldn't get Laguna to get back to Raine.  She couldn't change the past.  Thus, no paradox is possible.

You're thinking of fate as some mystical force, it seems.  It is not.  It is an act of a certain timeline theory, one which FF8 happens to use.  That theory is that everything that happens in a timeline has *already* happened, and that the act of living is just travelling along that timeline.  Time travel is also possible in this theory, but you cannot change the past.  This is one of the simplest time travel theories in existence.

However, it's generally not what people want to hear, so there are other time travel theories that *do* allow you to change the past.  What's interesting about FF8 is that it doesn't use any of them.

[Threesixty]

        but I'm combining your two theories, together....and it works, in a theory kinda way. Also I was just using that one example from BTF3 about the newspaper not having anything on it....

My goal is, currently, shaping the ideas of Timetravel and it's effects to the happenings in the FF8 Storyline; and to have no holes in the reasoning.

I like to believe this is how it works....which results in a happy ending for FF8 and from what I can tell, leaves no holes.

We were following Squall's story/timeline, which I'm going to reason is really the past. (Has a little bonus of fitting into Final Fantasies Linear Gameplay, and unreplayablity.   )

Ultimecia's Story/Timeline is the true present. Square's writers didn't really focus on Ultimecia so we don't know much about her...but that's besides the point.

So, in my mind, Squall's Timeline is based on fate, caused by the events in Ultimecia's Timeline. Everything that Squall and company does had already happened and everything that Ultimecia's doing has an unknown cause. Paradoxes may have been happening in her Timeline...but, because we were following Squall's Timeline, we didn't see any of it's effects.

Ultimecia's Timeline has a big unknown future. If Ultimecia knew her future, she would have won or would have stopped. So she obviously doesn't know her own future, which supports part my theory of her Timeline being the true present.

Timetraveling Forward never happens in the Game. There is a Time Compression thing that happens, but Going to the Future never does. (defined by Square in the Story). There is a reason why they had to remember each other during the Time Compression....It was the only way they could be in one place at one time....well....I think that's the reason....get's too complicated when you go there. Everything happening at once is beyond comprehension and is probably impossible to explain. The Game, "The Longest Journey", supports Time Compression pretty well...One character in that Game lives in that frame of time. After playing that game, understanding Time compression makes a little more sense, not much...but a little.

Ok...so (in my FF8 TimeTravel Theory) Ultimecia's Timeline is defined as the True Present Timeline (A timeline with a constantly changing future), Squall's Timeline, which we are watching, is the Past (the Future is already defined in Squall's Timeline, up to, and not beyond, the point of Ultimecia's Timeline).

Apparently, Squall, who is living in the past, can't effect his own past. This is because the Past can't change the Past. This keeps us from seeing the Paradox Thing. (Remember, FF8 doesn't have a real Paradox thing happening, just Time Compression. Smart move by Square's writers)

When Squall Defeats Ultimecia in the Time Compression. Her Timeline ceases to exist. (of course all timelines ceased to exist during the time compression, but I'm going somewhere else with this) Squall's Timeline then becomes the true present and all the happening from then on forward are constantly changing.

In short, when Squall defeats Ultimecia. His timeline becomes Ultimecia's Timeline or vice versa. The circle of fate is broken.

(from my imagination)
When Squall returns to normal time, he can then go to his own past and change it if he wishes....but if he does.....His past will become the Present. And his Timeline will do the same thing that Ultimecia's timeline Did.....It will Vanish, out of existence. Not a smart thing to do. The risk is too high, best not to Timetravel, unless you know for sure that the universe is going to end....(Ever see a movie called "Super Nova"? In the DVD deleted scenes version...the Universe Dies...that would be a good time to risk timetravel     )

Square has some really good talent, under it. They really thought about this TimeTraveling stuff, in their story; and it shows when you analyis the story's sequence of events. Too bad the story was not gripping. They really needed a defined villan. That's where they messed up. That and the editing they did to the dialog.

I bet you that Square's writers were focusing, so much, on the Timetravel thing, that they forgot about or didn't have time to connect us to the FF8 world and Characters. FF7 did this Character connection thing, perfectly....but FF7 Story doen't make any sense when you analise it. Kinda wierd when you think about it.

(hope, I didn't lose anyone)

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 05, 2001).]

[Terence Fergusson]

You neglect one gaping hole in your argument.

You've agreed you can't change Squall's past.  Yet, destroy Ultimecia's 'timeline', and she is unable to even exist, or die, or even pass on her powers to Edea.  Thus, Squall's entire *PAST* would begin to unravel.

But that past can't change.  Ultimecia *has* to jump into Edea and start trying to do Time Compression.  Squall and co *have* to be forced to stop her.

Remember, if you change the future such that Ultimecia cannot exist, then you also change everything she could've done.  And that, in turn, affects the past that you cannot change.

That's a contradiction right there.

Plus, you're allowing for paradoxes in the future.  That's unnecessary in the theory where *everything* can't be changed... a paradox cannot happen if both past and future are predetermined

Remember, also that if your theory was correct, then Ellone *would've* been able to change the past.  And then, by your own words, Laguna's past would become the new present, and he would've stayed with Raine when Squall was born.

This doesn't happen though.  We learn that Ellone's power can't change the past.  And guess what... *everyone* was using Ellone's power to time travel.  Even Ultimecia's Time Compression is simply a twist on the power of the Ellone Machine... she just needed enough Sorceress power to fuel it all.

You seem to think that there won't be a happy ending unless Ultimecia's timeline is eradicated.  That's not the case.  Several things happened to make it a happy ending.

Seifer got to follow his romantic dream, and then to see past it.  He got over his obsession with it.  He saw how his 'posse' actually cared for him, but at the time he was too caught up in things to be pulled back from the brink.  But once everything was said and done....

Zell finally got to have a hotdog ^_^

Laguna assumedly got to spend some time with his son.

Edea returned back to her normal self, not having to live in fear of Ultimecia.

And Squall... Squall learned to feel again.  He'd matured into a leader, and he was ready to trust now.  Rinoa had saved him.

If that's not a happy ending, I dunno what is.  Sure, Ultimecia still lurks in the future, but SeeD wasn't going to disband immediately.  What if other evil Sorceresses rose up after time?  There will come a time in the future where Ultimecia is born, and then is attacked by SeeD, prompting the spiral down to her use of the Ellone Machine.  Shortly after she first uses it, she mysteriously disappears, leaving the SeeD of that time confounded.  But since she never returns...

There is no 'circle of fate'.  Fate, in a way, is neverending.  The happy part though, is that Squall and co don't *know* what their fate is.  Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

Do I believe in fate in real life?  Personally, I'm not sure.  I believe that the past cannot be changed.  I believe that time travel isn't possible, since I do not believe the Universe has a 'memory' of what state it was in before.  I do believe that local time can be slowed down or speeded up, but that's due to the aging of molecules and how to affect that.  (That's how we measure time; by the way things age)

But fate?  I believe in free choice.  I'm human... it would take a great deal of effort for me not to believe in that.  I could run all manner of tests to prove that I could decide to do something whenever I want to... but there's no way to prove that that wouldn't have happened anyway.

Can the future be changed?  Perhaps that's not something we can answer yet.  And perhaps we don't want to *know* the answer.

[Terence Fergusson]

One final thing I think you should note.

As you go through FF8, if you look carefully, you see clues that Squall has already *gone* to the past after defeating Ultimecia.  The two main ones come from Cid and Edea:

Cid, Disc 2, just after fight with NORG:
"She had been a sorceress since childhood. I married her, knowing that."
"We were happy. We worked together, the two of us. We were very happy."
"One day, Edea began talking about building the Garden and training SeeD."
"I became obsessed with that plan. But I was very concerned with SeeD's goal, that one day SeeD might fight Edea..."
"She laughed and told me that would never happen."
"However..."

Edea, third CD, last time you talk to her:
"I first became a sorceress when I was a child. And once again...13 years ago."
"That day...right here, I encountered a sorceress on the verge of death."
"I received her powers of my own will."
"That sorceress was an entity of fear for my children."
"I could not let her get to them. But...This turned out to be the beginning of my painful story."
"As this very minute, my bitter story has ended. I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be."
"Therefore...Squall?"
"You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!"

All this happens before Time Compression.  From Edea's words, we later learn that Ultimecia is fated to die and give her powers to Edea.  From Cid's words, we later learn that Squall is fated to meet Edea and give her the idea of SeeD she comes up with so suddenly.

These events have already taken place.  Yet, from the events in the game, we know that Ultimecia is still around during Squall's timeline to cause trouble.

From all this, we conclude that Ultimecia is fated to be defeated anyways, and that everything that Squall does is fated to happen.  Were Ultimecia's timeline destroyed, then we would've seen that in the game itself.  In fact, there wouldn't even *BE* a game.