Author Topic: Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream  (Read 12074 times)

NeoS

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check this out:http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/
Doing such a good job at remaking and copyright kills the dream...
Like FF7, Chronotrigger used to be one of my favorites so i feel this is a big loss. :weep:

Bunnie-Maru

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #1 on: 2004-09-06 19:10:55 »
What can you expect? Definetly sucks, since they're doing the job everyone wants to be done but Square wont bother to do...

sfx1999

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #2 on: 2004-09-06 19:27:17 »
I don't get why Square couldn't just say this:

I tell you what. Let's make a deal. You continue to make the project and we'll pay you for it. We get all of the rights.

NeoS

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #3 on: 2004-09-06 19:30:53 »
Well, they kind of did make a remake, with the port to the PSX, but that sucked more due to the loading time the PSX has. The FMV's were pretty nice though.

But ontopic: These guys were doing a hell of a job recreating the game. If i were a big boss @ Square, i'd hire these guys and let them do the remake. Why not? There are a lot people who seem interested.
And Square Enix could earn a buck or two...

Bunnie-Maru

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« Reply #4 on: 2004-09-06 21:10:31 »
Probally because they couldnt put their name on it, or they simply didnt have the money to throw around, or didnt think there would be a big enough audience who would buy it.

Borman

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #5 on: 2004-09-06 23:37:15 »
I still think they are gunna finish the thing

Edit: http://www.xsorbit2.com/users/chronotrigger/index.cgi

Forums are still up, and they are talking to Square or something

NeoS

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #6 on: 2004-09-06 23:47:54 »
:lol: Nothing to say  :lol:

halkun

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #7 on: 2004-09-07 03:32:45 »
Wow, I really hate to be an "I told you so" but that was most definatly a rip off of the original game. It suchs a waste. They had some really good tech there, why didn't they make something original? It wasn't thier story to screw with in the first place. Now they are whining that they are going to call the EFF. What for "fair use"? It wasn't even thier copy in the first.

Bunnie-Maru

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« Reply #8 on: 2004-09-07 03:47:22 »
I think they were trying to just make an updated remake of the game, weren't they? Isnt that the point of making a remake, that it would be close to the original? I dont think they were remaking the story, just giving an update...

...But then again, I just skimmed... :-?

halkun

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« Reply #9 on: 2004-09-07 04:35:45 »
They were remaking 10 playable scenes from the original game. I decided to gloat (I know, I'm terrable!) and posted the following on thier website.

------------------------

Wow, what a waste!
When this website was shown to me not a month ago, I knew for a fact it would never see the light of day.

I mean honestly, you take someone else's copyrighted and trademarked work, not only that, something that Square spent *millions* in development and promotion, and all of the sudden you are all shocked that Square/Enix terminates a rip off of their product,

Oh, yea, I mean it's pretty, but it's still an unauthorized rip off.

Your abysmal knowledge of copyright law is staggering. You see, a "copyright" is an exclusive  "right to copy" by the copyright owner. In this case it's Square's asset.

Here's a tip, copyright is more powerful that free speech. Not only that Copyright is mentioned *first* in the U.S. Constitution (Article 8). Free speech isn't mentioned until the bill of rights at the end.  

You think that simply saying you are not affiliated with Square is going to indemnify you from a lawsuit. Guess what, an "Affiliation" means "To become closely connected or associated" I don't know about you, but it seems they took the Chrono Trigger trademark and blatantly copied the storyline, character art, and soundtrack. That sounds like an affiliation to me. You don't become affiliated by some magical agreement. Here's an example.

Mark launches model rockets in Germany.
Bob, who has never met Mark, launches model rockets in California.

Mark and Bob are affiliated with each other through model rocketry, even though they have never met.

Planning on distributing the soundtrack? Take my advice. Don't. You would just be distributing yet another one of Square's assets you don't have any rights to. I'm surprised they are letting them keep their logo up

You see, in the real world, you can't even distribute a MIDI file of a song without getting the rights to the composition. (The composer, not the singer, unless they are the same person)

I'm sure a posting the C&D letter will explain in full vivid detail what legal issues are at stake. I'm sure it includes such terms as "Trademark Dilution" and "Unauthorized Derivative". The cited JibJab case was based on parody, which is protected, but that issue never went to court as the composition (or instrumental music) of the song was discovered to be public domain. The actual words to the original "This Land is Your Land" is still under copyright and you will still get a C&D letter from Ludlow Music if you post the original Woody Guthrie song.

This wasn't a parody, it was a direct lifting of ChonoTrigger, all the way down to the swinging pendulum.

It just irritates me that something original couldn't if been made. Oh well, it looks like there will be now.

Oh, here's a parting comment. Once upon a time there was a Dragonball Z Total Conversion for Quake 3 called "Bid for Power" I mention this because it's was exactly what these guys were doing, all the way down to the Toriyama artwork. In their case it was done and ready for release. Here's what happened.
Quote

As many of you know Funimation owns the copyrights to Dragonball Z in the USA and has sold the exclusive rights to publish video games to Infogrames. On December 1st, 2000, the Bid For Power team received a cease and desist order from Funimation.
However, they seemed receptive to the notion of allowing Bid For Power to be released so long as certain conditions were met. We were put in touch with Infogrames who asked us, among other things, to recreate Bid For Power on Wild Tangent, a java-based engine, which would then be posted on the Dragonball Z website for people to play. This engine is incapable of running something as detailed as Bid For Power and we would have had to start work from scratch. Most of the team rejected the idea and talks went downhill from there. Without contact with Infogrames or Funimation the progress of Bid For Power slowed down even though we were sitting on a finished product and had been for some time.

We began dealing with Funimation directly in April when they asked us to send videos of gameplay to them so that they could have TOEI Japan review it. We sent the videos and heard nothing until we emailed them in July asking that we be allowed to release in August, since no objections had be made from TOEI Japan that we knew of. We were then sent another Cease and Desist order by way of Funimation.


Deader than a doornail, and for the same exact reason as this. You are dealing with millions of dollars in lost rights. If I were them, I would want to get any unauthorized works killed off too. I spent the millions of dollars for the rights, and they didn't. Simple as that.

Addundem:
If anyone is planning to contine with the "Resurrection" of "dead" programs without buying the rights, I suggest you stop now. This business model is flawed from the get-go.

Here's another thing. You don't have to make money to be considered a business.

-----------------------

I think this should serve as a warning for our projects. Gears is the first step in a "clean room" dissasembly of FF7. I, however, post no code and minimal data sets in my document. I far as I know, writing  specifacations and re-creating engines (Methodologies) are in that very very thin "fair use" band. However, one can never tell when a company has a wild hair up thier butt.

I'm not going to indemnify everyone and say that we are in the right. We are just innocent until proven guilty ^_^ However, when I made my PSX doc, I got real close and personal in a court of law with Sony. My PSX doc is still availible, and they had a copy of it when I was requested to give them a copy during discovery. As far as I can tell, it's legal or I would of been through the reamer four years ago.

Take that as you will.

Bunnie-Maru

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #10 on: 2004-09-07 04:45:48 »
If I check out that link, and see that you have actually posted that, I seriously will laugh. Shame on you Halkun, kicking them while they're down!  :P

But how would it hurt Square though if this was for like a free download? That is what is killing me, what exactly is the harm profit wise if a couple of people are simply giving your old game an update, and arnt planning to sell the game for profit, unless the company is already planning an update?

Aslong as they dont tamper with the storyline, the music, and just completely leave everything EXACTLY how it was in the original, except with updated graphics, who's getting hurt?

halkun

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« Reply #11 on: 2004-09-07 04:54:07 »
They lose thier trademark for one thing. That's really valueble to them. But lets take this a step furthur.

How about what would happen if Square just "let them be" Next thing you know, Square has this game that someone else made that is of higher quality than what they currently possess as an asset.

Now they can't release the original Chono Trigger anymore becuase they are compeating with thier own product that's now free. What's the point is developing the Chono franchise anymore? That's screwy no matter how you look at it.

In a perfect world, I would of at least investagted thier technology. However I'm sure they were developing the 3D Chrono Trigger on an engine that would of had to be licenced for commercal use. (Which is why Funmation asked the Bid For Power team to switch engines to a java-based system)  That's money out of my pocket for a product I didn't even make.

That's a pretty unacceptable position to be in to....

Bunnie-Maru

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« Reply #12 on: 2004-09-07 04:58:12 »
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I give it 4 out of 5. There really should be a "Im laughing so hard there goes my lunch" emoticon, but anyways...

You have a better understanding of these things than me, so I'll take your word for it. I wouldnt want to have to pay all of that money for trademarks and rights just to have someone else do it for free. They did seem to have alot of talent, those screenshots are pretty impressive. Cant judge the engine or the gameplay, but atleast it looked good! They really should put their effort into something original, they look like they know what they're doing...

NeoS

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« Reply #13 on: 2004-09-07 10:57:07 »
But, correct me if i'm wrong, isn't there like, a time period on copyrights? I heard of something a while ago, when someone discussed about some Deejay using samples from an old Elvis album.
Anyway, i'd hate being in their shoes right now...  :P
Aren't there any laws about fanwork?
That trailer looks very cool by the way. :D

fa_pa

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« Reply #14 on: 2004-09-07 13:12:48 »
yeah elvis presley copirights are expired!

hm what is squares problem copyright of a game thats so old NO ONE plays or buys any more! yeah it may be their copyright but they do not make any profit with it anymore! the game was well made square could pay them for making a complete remake but they are to stupid to see the chance!

halkun

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« Reply #15 on: 2004-09-07 22:30:41 »
In the U.S, copyrights are Life+70 years.  Nothing has gone into public domain since 1924. and a couple of paperwork screw ups before 1976, but it can be argued that with the new extention, the works that were expired before the renewed 1976 copyright extention are now copyrighted again.  (Yea, we actully took away public domain with our last extention. What a crock that was!)

qwerty

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« Reply #16 on: 2004-09-07 22:34:38 »
Quote from: halkun
Addundem


Addendum. :lol:

Yeah, it breaks my heart to see so much good work and effort put into these games all to be torn down by a copyright. Just a tip: always make sure it's legal first unless you want a company crawling up your ass about a copyright. :D

fa_pa

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« Reply #17 on: 2004-09-08 09:12:35 »
hehe they could produce their game in europe because the US copyright is worthless in europe  :wicked:

like this thingy with piratebay bittorrent tracker ;)

Qhimm

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Chrono Ressurection down; It was a pleasant dream
« Reply #18 on: 2004-09-08 09:22:15 »
I seem to recall a certain Berne convention (sp?) suggesting otherwise...

Bunnie-Maru

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« Reply #19 on: 2004-09-08 18:58:19 »
Even if they did release it in Europe, couldn't Square hit them with the copyright in Europe anyways for the PAL version?

NeoS

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« Reply #20 on: 2004-09-08 21:07:33 »
Of course they would. It's still the same game from the same company. If i'd produce something here (Netherlands) and i get it copyrighted, it is copyrighted over the whole world. It's still MY product. (don't know EXACTLY how it works, but that's one thing i know for sure...)

halkun

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« Reply #21 on: 2004-09-08 22:51:58 »
It works like this:

In 1976 a bunch of countries got togeather and singed an agreement to unify copyright law. It doent matter where you are.  When you create a work, most countries, (well, all that export copyrighted works anyway) will make sure that rights holder will get a fair shake in any country.

I can post my ftp addess that will allow you access to my mp3 collection. Most of it is in Japanese anyway and I'm here in the US. I can still run a risk of getting boned by some Japanese music exec with too much time on his hands.

Copyright is universal, and the only reasn why it's not forever is because that pesky article 8 in the US consitution says it can't be. But they can extend it to forever minus a day......

J*** H*******

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« Reply #22 on: 2004-09-09 12:55:02 »
Message.

Bunnie-Maru

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« Reply #23 on: 2004-09-09 18:55:03 »
Quote
That might be true for you rednecks


Thats only in the south, the more...How do I put this nicely..."technologicly handicapped" states. Why does everyone in every other country think the entire country are rednecks...stupid western movies...-_-

But what about games? Is there any difference there?

NeoS

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« Reply #24 on: 2004-09-09 20:59:26 »
Not much, xcept the release dates are WAY longer... -_-
And the ratings on games are much lower  :wicked:
Here, even a 12 year old can play Vice City for instance. Manhunt is sold to 16 year olds...
But copyrights are basically the same.