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DLPB_

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #225 on: 2015-06-30 01:34:04 »
I agree, but not with the word "nearly".  I feel certain it will be crap haha.  But I'll be happy if I am wrong.  I just don't expect to be in the slightest.  I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo.  I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihlaR7ubfOg

yay!
« Last Edit: 2015-06-30 17:04:25 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #226 on: 2015-06-30 18:42:07 »

DLPB_

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #227 on: 2015-06-30 19:13:44 »
It's still the same hack slash chaotic system...  The original point is still the same imho.  It's not as bad as original video but there's still very little tactical thinking going on (and, as usual, one character).  Real time combat is hard to pull off.  Ocarina of Time did it, but it (and similar) had real thought put into it.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-30 19:28:43 by DLPB »

White Wind

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #228 on: 2015-06-30 20:45:19 »
Lock, Ice Arrow, hook-shot your icy foe and get near, Fire of Din in his face, slice him with Biggoron sword  8)

Now imagine Cait Sith jumping around everywhere, hitting everything with his megaphone and shouting at everyone ( dubbed by the Nyan Cat ).. Dan's living wet dream

StickySock

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #229 on: 2015-07-01 04:48:45 »
I do feel that there is a very good chance that the FF7 remake and FFXV will share a lot of similarities based on the knowledge that they are being made around the same time, that Square spent so much time and money developing the engine for FFXV, and that they seem to be very proud of FFXV and the type of game it is (renaming FFVSXIII to FFXV). I hope that if that really is the case, that FF7 will be able to correct some of the issues people will have in the final release of FFXV (at least when it comes to real time combat).

It's strange to think that these three things are true simultaneously: I am generally accepting of real time combat, many of my favorite games are real time combat, and one of my favorite game series of all time is Zelda, but I don't think that the hacky slashy part of Zelda has been executed very well (as far as 3D entries go. I'm not as experienced in the 2D entries) except for maybe Twilight Princess (don't particularly like this entry overall) and Wind Waker (I love this one though). It is generally too simplistic for my taste.

My personal opinion of hack and slashy 3D combat is that it has been nearly perfected in two different styles: Devil May Cry (1, 3, and 4) and the Souls series (Demon's, Dark, Bloodborne). Devil May Cry is fast & frantic action where the strategy comes from stringing together combos, dodging, and proper use of abilities and skills to kill everything in the most flashy way possible. I would say the complexity of that series rivals that of fighting games in terms of truly mastering characters. The Soul's series, on the other hand, has a very slow and deliberate pace where the goal is to value all of the moves and decisions you make in order to survive long enough to learn enough about the area and/or enemies to make it to the next checkpoint. These two series are why I can't bring myself to dismiss a game based on whether it has real time combat, because if any game could make the gameplay as deep as either of those two in real time I would buy it in a heartbeat.

That being said, it seems most modern third person action games have aimed to be in the middle of the two, in order to not require the thinking present in the Souls series or the reflexes required in the Devil May Cry series, but still retain the flashy action that makes for hype trailers. I guess I just hope in my mind that any game that is announced to have real time combat that it will satisfy me on at least one of those two fronts and am optimistic about the possibility until I am proven wrong.

But I do understand more and more by reading some of the viewpoints here, and elsewhere, that a lot of fans are very attached to FF7's combat, or the combat of the series pre-FFXII in general, and I can similarly understand why the entire series going down this new road can be so frustrating and make Senix seem so short-sighted. I know I'd be confused and frustrated if Dark Souls IV or Devil May Cry 5 were turn based.

hian

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #230 on: 2015-07-01 11:47:42 »
I agree, but not with the word "nearly".  I feel certain it will be crap haha.  But I'll be happy if I am wrong.  I just don't expect to be in the slightest.  I am not sure how much more convinced I am than Hian... that may prove interesting convo.  I assume this is using FF15 engine and ethos... if so... this is what we have to look forward to:

Personally, I can't really rate my own conviction here. It could pan out in many different ways -
What I can speak to, is my worry and my anxiety, and they are off the charts when it comes to FF7R.

I am not at all sure that it will be bad - I am afraid that I will be bad. I am very afraid that it will be bad.

As for action systems - they generally don't work with party-centered RPGs, which is why I am usually opposed to them in party-centered RPGs.
They can work in single-player RPGs because you only have one bloke to worry about.
The moment you add more, it becomes cluttered - I mean, even if they're just NPCs, they're still a hindrance more often
than not, which is why even in action games, people usually loath missions where you have to keep an NPC alive
as you run through level.

Action systems require immediate focus and twitch sensibilities - that doesn't work well with party-play most of the time,
which is problematic when RPGs often try to tell stories about a party of people going off on an adventure.
Apart from table-top conventions and traditions, that's one of the reasons the JRPG turn-based system was made to
begin with - to allow players to control (strategical control at that) an entire party of characters by themselves.
The ability to micro-manage every move of your entire party is a prerequisite for successful party play,
unless it's a multi-player game, or the A.I is fantastic.
The problem with the former is that this creates a plethora of issues (what if you don't have any friends to play with etc.?),
and the latter is that A.I's simply aren't that advanced yet, and are probably never going to be as good as a character
with a human being the sticks.

The party dynamic was one of the things I loathed about type-0 - I am all choked up trying to fend for the character I am controlling -
too much so to worry about what the other characters are getting up to, and before I know it, they're dying like flies because they're fvcking incompetent (not to mention that this game doesn't have an efficient system for healing characters you're not controlling, since
the spell are next to impossible to target allies with, and going to the menu for items doesn't pause the game,
meaning that the enemy will keep attacking while you're frantically searching for healing items on the menu that covers
the entire screen).

You can side-step all of those issues simply by opting for a turn-based system - or like in the Star Wars - Knights of the Old republic games, add a pause function that still allows you to change characters, queue orders/commands, use items etc.

The issue here is that we know that Nomura is not going to opt for the old battle system - we know that it's likely (though not to what degree) that they'll opt for an action system. The problem is that SE and the FF teams do not have a good track-record of
developing action battle systems.
Every single FF game I've played with an action-centric combat system have been horrible.

Dirge of Cerberus had a miserable camera and a lack-luster combat system that felt like a botched and bastardized child
of early Syphon Filter and Devil May Cry as designed by a bunch of people who hadn't payed attention
to the development of 3d person action games the last decade before they decided to attempt to make one.

Type-0 was, in its most basic form, a joy to play on the PS Vita with two analogue sticks, but it was plagued by horrible
balancing issues, and contrived game-play mechanics  like
- no proper means of revival in missions, except for
one spell, and a very limited supply of Phoenix Downs that resulted in the "reraise" state on party members for
a limited amount of time)
- Menu not pausing the game, and pausing the game not allowing you to browse the menu
- No proper way of targeting allies with quick items or spells
- Quick item slot defaulting to empty once you run out of the item you equipped, forcing you to go to the [unpausing] menu
to change it
- enemies getting kill-sight attacks on your party despite the fact that you have no proper revival options, or enemies
randomly going into "aggro" mode where they glow gold and can suddenly one-hit-kill your characters
- Not being able to exchange the 3 primary party-members for reserves unless one of them dies or if you're at
a save-point.
- Not being able to change skills/equipment except at save-points
and the list keeps on going.

FF15 is plagued by horrible camera, a contrived lock-on system, relatively flat combat with no real challenged except by
bosses with ridiculous amounts of HP and DMG.

In fact, the only FF action RPG that isn't horrible of the top of my head, is Crisis Core, but the combat there was limited to one
character, and was still pretty flat and repetitive most of the time.

So, point in case -
If they're going to remove the turn-based(ATB) system - and use an action system, the rate of failure increases exponentially unless they
A.) make Cloud the only playable character, which would be really fvcking boring in a game with a larger than life cast like FF7
B.) introduce a proper pause command menu

As a developer,
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the only system that I think could appeal to both old and new fans with FF7R
while retaining strategical party play is a semi-ATB action system -

Perhaps where moving about and attacking/dodging is done in free-time, while item/magic/limit break
are tied to a command menu that can only be opened for each individual character once their respective ATB gauge is filled,
and when opened either stops or slows down time to allow the player to make deliberate choices (also with
the possibility of slowing down or stopping down time whenever else too, such as when changing characters).

That way you could get best of both worlds.
You could even add an option in the menu to adjust the time or slowing of speed that happens upon opening the command menu
to be true to the adjustment of the battle-speed in the original game.
Add a possibility to tie certain skills/items/magic to a quick use function mapped to the d-pad or something to that effect
so the action freaks won't have to scroll through menus all the time to get to the spells they want to use, and you have
a pretty good system going.
You could be dashing about with Cloud in one moment, stop time, change to Barret, fire up the command menu, set up a fire spell,
change back to Cloud and then continue on dashing about without any issues what so ever.
Everybody is happy.

Will SE do this? Probably not.
Unfortunately, I don't think Nomura has the design sense, nor the creativity to actually imagine a system like that.

Izban

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #231 on: 2015-07-01 12:43:00 »
Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>

Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.

Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>

From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.

Gotta Agree with StickySock on the whole Zelda being an amazing game, while lacking a deep combat system(windwaker having the most complex combat in the series), no combo system(scored or otherwise) very limited movelist, sure you have a whole mess of items that shuffle the combat a little, but brass tax is transition is too clunky for it to really shine, Darksiders is an excellent example of a deepish combat system with some RPG elements strapped on, Darksiders 2 the beautiful buggy mess it is takes many steps forward but a small one back in that there is no dedicated way to block. The soul series quite probably one of the deepest/deliberate combat systems floating around in a non fighter, really it only adds a stamina bar and slows down play which in of itself increases immersion. Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.

<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>

Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.

hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian

hian

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #232 on: 2015-07-01 13:44:08 »
hopefully that is a little more coherent for you hian

Yes, which makes me wonder why you made the posts you did to begin with, unless you were trolling for reactions.
That being said, that was a much more reasonable post, despite the snark and your forced insertion of "<opinion></opinion>"
which seems to imply you either missed my point entirely or are persisting in trollish behavior in direct contradiction to the request
of a moderator.


Strangely, I actually find it quite difficult to get upset over the internet, I write how i talk and that can leave a lot to be desired for the grammar/spelling buffs that seem to permeate through the forum subculture...neither of which are terribly important to me, nor really are the opinions of me, people on the internet. Context if far more important if you ask me. </off topic>

I highly doubt you speak like this
"whoa gaiz.... clearly i poked a nerve.....seriously peeps not giving things a chance casting judgments before things are even shown,let alone played, thats just silly.(opinion... tiz the interwebz gaiz)" - but whatever, I'll humor you all the same.

As for context? What context would that be? Besides, in regards to your post, it's not the grammar or spelling I was critiquing. I don't mind spelling mistakes - And in your case, it's patently obvious it wasn't done by mistake - it was a conscious choice, and that's what made me make the comment I did.
You didn't type like a baboon on accident - you chose to do so. That's actually worse.

Sure recent entries from SquEnix have been "iffy" and i'm sure there are gonna be a hell of a lot more in the way of gripes, that the internet is gonna point out, but it seem necessary to remind people that both Squaresoft and Enix while separate contributed massive amounts to the JRPG genre:FF6;FF7;Chrono Trigger; Dragon Quest.Both have also been responsible for some of the more amazing ARPGS; Sword of Mana;Secret of Mana;Secret of Evermore;Star Ocean;FF12.

While separate yes - with different teams and different people in creative control. Now every content creator in SE answers to
a much larger pressure group of financial backers than before, as cogs in a huge economical enterprise that does a lot
more than just gaming at this point.
The first games you mention were all made before the merger, when the structure and scale of each company was completely was completely different, and before they started pumping out half-assed game after half-assed game.
As for the rest :

- Star Ocean wasn't developed by SE, or Squaresoft or Enix - it was developed by Tri-Ace and published by Enix, and now SE.
 
- Sword of Mana was mostly out-sourced to the co-production company Brownie Brown and is a Nintendo product produced
by Koichi Ishii, who has only worked on Nintendo production for the last decade - the last being the 3DS edition of Major's Mask.

- Secret of Mana is another Square Product that was produced by Hiromichi Tanaka, who hasn't done active work for
SE since the FFIII DS release back in 2006.

- Secret of Evermore was produced by Square's North American branch, people who have nothing to do with modern Japan-based
SE games what so ever.

- FF12 isn't an action RPG, it's a free-roam ATB game. The battle system, with the exception of on-map enemies and the ability
to move your characters while fighting, uses the exact same core system as the PS1 era Final Fantasies. It's also not a very good FF game in my opinion (could have been a great sequel to Vagrant Story, or an off-shot title to FF:Tactics).
It also started development 3 years before the merger, and was hampered by re-organization tied to the merger (which they then
tied up to a bunch of BS personal reasons, but Sakaguchi's initial hostility to the changes in staff and the timing speaks to
true nature of what was going on back then).

Non of these examples build into an argument of confidence for SE's ability to make a good action RPG, or even a good RPG, out of the FF7R. In fact, it makes the exact opposite argument - namely, how is SE supposed to make a good JRPG when all the primary minds behind their best games are no longer working for them on in-house productions?

Granted not all of the people involved in the creation of the previous masterpieces will be involved, seeing as some have left SquEnix, but one would assume that the majority of the team involved will be from the parent company, likely having worked on the games mentioned,<opinion>which really can't be a bad thing seeing as one of the reasons they said it would never happen was because they didn't want to 'break' it.</opinion>

Here's some game development 101 - the only people who "really" matter are the ones who call the shots (off course everybody matters though - without a team of dedicated scripters, no game would be made at all - my point is that they're ultimately working on directives).
FF7R could have 90% of the same staff as the original, but with a different writer, producer, executive producer, game/system designers, it could turn out a completely different game.
The majority of the work done on big budget games, is done by the scripters and designers on the floor - but they're only doing what they're told to do by the people with the creative function and executive power in the office with the big white-boards and projectors.

The people who made the games you just mentioned great - are no longer with SE, or working in the Nintendo/handheld branch and clearly won't be touching this product.
It doesn't matter if Nomura can scrap up the original event scripter, or battle event planner from the original game. They are not the ones who decide how the game turns out in the end.

The parent company of SE, lost a lot of people after the "merger"(I hate it when people call it that - it wasn't a merger, it was Squaresoft being bought out by Enix, and treated pretty poorly at that), and they've lost even more over the years with their constant change in direction alienating a lot of the old crowd.
 
From what i've seen of FF15 the combat is alot deeper then is first apparent, still however lacking but plenty of room to grow, until i see or get my hands on a copy i wont know for sure, but hey i am a fan of ARPGs for the same reason i prefer Doom over Halo(stupid rebounding health rewarding poor play) that being good play is rewarded by having some form of advantage later on usually in the way of health.

As a person who has Episode Duscae, I'd say the problems are pretty fundamental. You can try to put wrapping on a dung, but it's still just a dung.
I don't really get your analogy though - since FF15 seems literally to be the RPG equivalent of modern FPS games compared to the classic FPS games.

Rogue Galaxy for the PS2, an ARPG much like the twisted love child of ARPG and JRPG, its fairly close to what i feel an ARPG should play like, a little bit on the easy side but difficulty is always hard for the gaming industry to get right.

Here we agree. In fact, Rogue Galaxy is easily on my "top 5 JRPGs of all time"-list, and easily has one of the best battle system of any single player, non-fighting game that I can think of.
It trumps pretty much everything that SE has ever tried to do in terms of ARPG system by such a large stretch it's not even worth considering.
If FF7R took a leaf out of Rogue Galaxy, I could live with the change. But then again, Rogue Galaxy was made by Level-5 who're generally geniuses when it comes to game-design in general.
If and only if SE had outsourced the remake. There literally are so many more qualified dev teams to handle this right now, than
any in-house SE effort.

<opinion>Again i maintain judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea, why would one choose to wallow in ignorance by assuming they know better, it follows a similar train of thought as racism</opinion>

Then perhaps you should try to eat your own feces just to make sure that it tastes horrible and isn't good for you - you know, because judging something before experiencing it is the epitome of a stupid idea and all that?
On second though...

Ultimately though everyone needs to remember that SquEnix is a company, their aim is to make money and they do that well, and how they do it, is make games and now they are giving an old one a make over, which can go either way, it could be the messiah or it could be the devils sweaty ball sack, either way i need more information before i make a choice about canceling my pre-order.

Oh the irony... The god damn irony...

You'd think that not making a judgement about something you don't know anything about, would include not making a god damn pre-order. But hey, what do I know?
« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 13:48:27 by hian »

DLPB_

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #233 on: 2015-07-01 16:47:00 »
Yeah, I have to say - this whole "You need to play it before you have an opinion" is a very weak (wet toilet paper) and tired argument and I've heard it a number of times in the past too.  Before FF13 came out, I was fairly sure I'd hate it (based, once again, on interviews and such).  I got told that was unfair.  Then it did come out and I watched numerous videos and read reviews and refused to buy it on that basis.  I got told that was silly because I had to have played it - not watched someone else - before I could have an opinion.

I think what's really happening is fanboy goggles and the intolerance to a negative opinion.  I hardly ever see people shouted down for positive views, no matter the lack of logic or evidence.  It's only when someone says something in the negative that opinion suddenly doesn't count.  It's probably why religion got off the ground too - because people like to believe in sky fairies compared to blunt, unhappy reality.

In fact, here's a snippet of one of the debates I had about it (2010). 

Quote
seifer, I'm not sure if he's defending it necessarily as a good or fun game. He's just analyzing the logic and progression of the design that the game actually exhibits.

Of course, you wouldn't have any first-hand experience with XIII's design logic and progression since you've never played it.

Quote
As you keep reminding people. And as I keep reminding you, watching hours of video and reading tons of reviews means that I can criticise it fairly. I don't need to see the contents of a nappy to know what lies therein, nor do I need to understand the logical structure of the game to know what the devlopers have said.

Quote
Seifer, his critique is about the progression of battles from minute 1 to the endgame. So unless you've watched Youtube clips from the opening to closing cutscenes, including the set-up of each individual battle formation, you probably haven't the adequate experience to counter his analysis (which is, in fact, an analysis and not a critique of what the developers were too lazy to include in their RPG adventure - a point you continue to bring up, and which generally has no relevance to what XIII actually is).

And are you really saying that by reading reviews and watching clips on Youtube you can criticize something fairly? Like, really? Are you kidding?

I gave back an incredibly sarcastic and immature response to this so won't post it.  I used to be far worse than I am now.  ;D

If he was correct, we wouldn't have review sites, would we?  Clearly just buys games without even bothering to find out if they are rubbish and/or to his fancy.


« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 20:10:14 by DLPB »

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #234 on: 2015-07-01 21:06:31 »
I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.

DLPB_

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #235 on: 2015-07-01 21:14:25 »
I think you are right insofar as you can have an opinion on a game without playing it, however, the game does need to actually exist before you can say anything definitive about it.

I don't agree with that for the reasons I and Hian have given.  We aren't giving absolutes, we are giving our opinion that in all likelihood it's going to be very poor.  We do that on the basis of interviews, what we've seen so far, Senix track record, and videos they have/will release.  At the moment, it isn't "definitive", but I was absolutely sure FF13 would have a lazy battle system and that I wouldn't like it before it came out and I was right.  Equally, I believe I am going to be just as right this time.  But time will tell.  More interviews, more videos will give a more rounded view before it's even on the shelf.   I think videos are the most valuable, you can spot suck very easily.  I am looking forward to the videos they release.

I promise you that if I see something good in them, I will have a positive opinion on them.  I am, however, falling into the trap of saturating the subject.  So, with that, I'll leave until there's more to go on.
« Last Edit: 2015-07-01 21:59:29 by DLPB »

StickySock

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #236 on: 2015-07-02 07:32:00 »
Hian's analysis of Square Enix's action track record is pretty spot on IMO, as well as his thoughts on a hybrid system, and the fact that square is unlikely to actually create something that would satisfy both fan bases.

When it comes to Hian's and Dan's distain for the "don't knock it 'till you try" mentality, I completely agree. Another good analogy is that I never want to try crack, because I assume I may in fact become addicted and have it ruin my life. It's a thought I formed without having to try it based on knowledge of other cases and my own personal feelings. At the same time, I don't think it is wrong to let yourself be swept up in the excitement of the promise of something great (even if Square has no reason to make me actually believe it), as long as you didn't literally buy into or are being consistently duped, as some "diehard" fans may unfortunately experience from time to time.

But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.

I don't think that people who are excited should not be, or that people who are pessimistic should not be either. We all have our reasons, and at the end of the day, logic is only impartial when viewed from within our own personal set of parameters for defining what logic is (probably could and would like to continue that discussion with anyone who wants to somewhere else).

The aspect of this discussion I have enjoyed reading and making lazy attempts to participate in is what we think we will see out of this game and what we hope or fear will come from it as well.

Kaldarasha

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #237 on: 2015-07-02 10:12:37 »
It's still the same hack slash chaotic system... 

I have played games (like Dragons Dogma) which have a similar system and are far away from being chaotic. Xenonblade Chronicles, which is like FFXII, was actually the first modern game which has felt like a true JRPG. So I wouldn't make the battle system that important.

Don't get me wrong I think the battle system is important but it need a drastically renew in its tactical department. As much as I believe it, they will make very close to the original, at last I haven't seen a remake of SE were they simply changed it (the port of The World ends with You to android doesn't count).
« Last Edit: 2015-07-02 11:02:24 by Kaldarasha »

hian

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #238 on: 2015-07-04 15:39:44 »
But at the end of the day, some fans may legitimately like the gameplay we sit around criticizing, and have fun with it in one way or another. They may even legitimately prefer it to a more complex or thought-provoking system, which is not inherently wrong for them to like.

This is very true, and in all likelihood, the new generation of FF players (and possible FF players) probably enjoy the kind of game-play we see in FF15 than in the original FF7, which is why that's what we're likely to see in the remake.
It's a simply economical equation - if you're making a multi-million dollar production on what amounts to loaned money, you need to make sure that the products sell to as many people as possible. The original FF7 purists do not make up enough of the market to warrant being the primary target demographic for the remake considering the costs of it.

My problem is that this is a dick move of SE. After all, as I've said before, the FF franchise is here today because of the original FF7 fans.
Who's been asking for the remake? The fans of the original.
What kind of remake do most of these fans want? Difficult to answer, but my guess would be one that is close to the original.

What SE is doing now, to my mind, if they don't make the remake true to the original, is shitting in the face of those fans, their contribution to the franchise and the company and their legacy -
They're essentially going "Here you are - we're going to take advantage of the publicity that follows from finally 'giving in to fan demands' by
'remaking' one of gaming history's most iconic games, but we're going to market and shape it for a bunch of people who don't actually have a relationship with the game despite the fact that they might very well have been satisfied by a stand-alone original title anyway".

It reeks as a ploy of greedy corporation big-shots fueled by diagrams and power-point presentations done by marketing executives who don't give a flying fvck about FF as a piece of art, or about the history, culture and traditions surrounding the franchise.

I don't mind innovation. I don't mind action-focused FF games. But, if you want to make something like that - do like with FF15 - make an original title.
What I mind is exploiting the success of a former product to push out something resembling it - riding the wave so to speak - which is still fundamentally different.
Imagine if the Lord of The Rings movies hadn't come out yet, and they had just been announced - with the caveat that they would be set in a cyber-punk dystopian future of humanity on Mars. You know, just to capture a wider movie-going audience.
Would that sit well with fans of the books? No.
Would the reply "well, you still have the books so you can just enjoy those instead" be a good reply to those disdained fans? No.

I don't begrudge new possible fans a good FF game with an action system to play - in fact, they already probably have one coming up with FF15.
What I begrudge them is a multi-million dollar re-production of my favorite game, which I have been wanting and advocating for, for years, that is tailored to these people who neither played nor had a relationship to the game to begin with, at the expense of the things that made me like the game to begin with.
Why should they get that? What's the point? Except using us original fans, and the original game's reputation, as a spring-board for hype and image-building when they finally release it to the wider public ("hey you, I know you never played an FF game before, but look at this game - it's one of video-game history's most iconic titles, and we've remade it for the fans, and look they're teary eyed with joy! You should check it out!").

It's really fvcking sneaky, and it's really fvcking rude - if it's the case, that is.
If it is the case though, I'll literally fill a box with shit and rotten meat, and mail it to Nomura so that his house will never smell the same again, ever. Then, I'll never buy a SE product again, ever, just for good measure.

Shard

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #239 on: 2015-07-04 21:15:36 »
The last thing I bought from Squaresoft/Square-enix was a used copy of FF12 (technically they didn't make money from me, Gamestop did). That's not likely to change in the foreseeable future. I just don't enjoy mindless, strategy-less beat-em-ups where your characters are godly and can never die. If you want to tell a story, make a fucking movie. Games need to be interactive, and the remake most likely will fail that test.

yarLson

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #240 on: 2015-07-04 22:37:46 »
In all this time I have held off from making a final verdict on Square until I see the fruits of the labor that is Final Fantasy XV.  When the game was first announced I was a dedicated Square fan just finishing up my adventures in Kingdom Hearts II and Final Fantasy XII.  I was super hyped after KHII and although XII wasn't the greatest, at least it had a semblance of challenge in the bonus dungeon and battle with Omega Weapon. 

Since then I have gotten nothing but disappointed by Squares offerings hoping that XIII Versus would come along and reign forgiveness on the massacre that was the rest of XIII's saga.  I was also hoping that Kingdom Heats III would do something similar but since we never even heard anything about that game until recently my hope and excitement for that series died off considerably.  The only game I have moderately enjoyed since then was Star Ocean IV and I am not sure that really counts as a Square game since its mostly an effort of Tri-Ace, and even then I didn't like it nearly as much as the first three. 

Now I don't really play everything that Square publishes but I do at least try most of their JRPG's and nothing has really captured the spirit of Final Fantasy since X for me other than some of the mobile remakes for III and IV.  All this to say that in the period I have spent in anticipation of XV, I have gone from a firm believer in Square as one of my favorite publishers to someone who barely even cares enough to hang on for XV to be finished.  I will try it first though before judgement as anything can really happen at this point.  We don't know the intricacies of XV's battle system just yet until we get our hands on it but if they removed character switching then in my book that does not bode well so far.

Still comparing a video game publisher to an addictive substance like crack cocaine is a bit of stretch.  Unlike the obvious and unchanging effects of such a substance, a publishing company is dynamic.  People are capable of realizing their past failings and rising above the stigma to create something wonderful.  Will they?  I'd say the odds aren't good that the original team can overcome their seeming hubris to achieve this, yet we really cannot and will not know until the game is fully realized.  I for one don't wish to speculate about things I have such limited information on.

If anything I don't want to put so much energy into assuming it will be garbage.  Any emotional investment I had in the series was long ago obliterated by XIII so even if it is it won't really affect me in any negative way.  Yet if somehow they pulled it off and made something that is worthwhile, even if not perfect, that is nothing but a benefit to me.  Will it be a replica?  We already have a definite answer on that so if that's all you'll accept then I suppose I can accept your negativity if not fully understand it.  I personally never wanted a replica but something that is more fully vetted than the original could have possibly been at the time of its inception.

Any significant change in the story would be fairly uncalled for but as far as the mechanics and game-play; we have had almost 20 years of progress since the original so to simply mimic it on such a powerful system as the PlayStation 4 would be kind of a waste in my opinion.  Now does that mean that they will automatically get it right?  Of course not, and I am not half expecting them to do so either.  I simply know enough now to know that anything could happen at this point.

It wouldn't be the first unexpected surprise to happen in the world of gaming and it most certainly wouldn't be the last.  At the least I would rather be positive in hoping for something good to come of this than just assume what seems most likely to happen.  If it was me in that position I would at least hope I had enough humanity to recognize when I am wrong and start over.  That's up the dev team themselves to decide though so anything I feel or say wouldn't really change a thing.  If it was an open source project that'd be one thing, but its not, so I say they are free to make their Remake and I am free to ignore it if it happens to be garbage.  Anything more than that and I really just don't give a shit enough to guess at.

hian

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #241 on: 2015-07-05 03:33:26 »
Any significant change in the story would be fairly uncalled for but as far as the mechanics and game-play; we have had almost 20 years of progress since the original so to simply mimic it on such a powerful system as the PlayStation 4 would be kind of a waste in my opinion.  Now does that mean that they will automatically get it right?  off course not, and I am not half expecting them to do so either.  I simply know enough now to know that anything could happen at this point.

We've had almost 20 years of change - some of it has been progressive, some of it has been regressive.
We could have a lot of discussion on whether or not the original FF7's game-play mechanics are outdated or not - but the FF13 battle system, which is fairly traditional by most standards, or the general game-play of games like Bravely Default, clearly demonstrate that the conventions of FF7 aren't out of date in the sense of use, nor have they been left behind by progression within the medium.

Personally, which is where I think I differ from DLPB, I am not making the argument that I want the remake to be exactly the same as the original in terms of basic game-play.
There are many game-play variations I can conceive of as being good in their own right, or true to the spirit of the game - my problem lies in the idea that the game-play needs to be drastically different (such as a complete transition to an ARPG system), or that it should be changed because the original mechanics are somehow bad or flawed.
By most accounts, and I say this as a developer myself, the original systems are brilliant -
their primary sin is how poorly balanced, and sometimes poorly realized they are, not the systems in and of themselves.

- The Materia system is great because it allows for completely free customization of all characters, meaning that the player is free to
pick their party largely only being concerned about which characters they want to experience the narrative with, and not being forced (in general) to play with characters they don't like on a personal level (like Cait Sith ;P ).
The fault lies in sub-par balancing of the materia effects in battle, which is relatively easy to fix with more play-testing.

- The transition system for battles/random encounters are clever because it allows a game to play out epic, big-scale battles with
little to no concern with the environments of the game, clipping/edge detection issues, movement A.I, and many other aspects of the game.
The fault lies in the lack of ability to adjust/turn off encounter-rates at the player's leisure, which is easy to fix by adding a simple
menu command.

- The turn-based/ATB system is great because it allows for party micro-management and 1-man "team-play" taking full use of the potential of several members of the cast at once.
The fault lies in the static and "unrealistic" nature of it, which is easy to fix through stylistic changes such as having the characters
move automatically around on the battle-screen in-between turns to make the battle look more dynamic, adding alternative battle-animations for attacks, etc.

- The mini-games are inspired works of creativity, that serves to break up otherwise very repetitive and standard RPG game-play convention of -town/resource exchange, dungeon/battle/resource gathering, story-segment-, into a more diverse experience
with action-, racing-, sports- and fighting-game conventions.
The fault lies in poor execution due to limited time and hardware, with clunky controls and bad responsiveness, which are all easy to
address given the experience the company now has on other titles, and the new hardware resources now available to them. 

My point with these examples, is that there are plenty of changes that SE can make to the original system to make it more "exciting" or "accessible" to people without changing it entirely, and that non of these systems that require up-dating are silly, outdated PSX-era conventions that no-body use or like anymore, as a lot of people seem to suggest these days.

FF7 requires polish to be up to today's standards - and more polish than just to the script, the graphics, and the sound, but also to the game-play, such as balance, controls, and style. It does not however require a total overhaul, which is what it seems to be getting.
In many ways, keeping the original game-play and simply adding polish might actually teach the new generation the merit of those kinds of games, and lead to a renaissance for the JRPG genre. I see no reason why this can't happen a second time around.
It's not like the original FF7 wasn't also competing with good games from different genres.
[I remember the big debate between gamers back in elementary/junior high school was "which is better FF7 or Ocarina of Time?"(despite almost a two year release gap, between the two).]

gjoerulv

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #242 on: 2015-07-26 00:02:05 »
Sorry to revive this thread; I stumbled upon this:

http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/222698/20150722/final-fantasy-7-ps4-remake-news.htm

It is not gonna be AC FF7... Yes, not a reuse of resources. Anyone with some knowledge about information technology would probably have figured that one out already. But I bet it will be emo AC Cloud and emo AC Tifa. It will be the extended universe FF7, not the original FF7.

New gameplay because noone can pinpoint what FF7 is? FF7 is not a car. It is not a movie. It is not a puzzle game. It's a turn based JRPG.

FF7R released when it's scheduled will probably be at it's most profitable. SE knows this. Reeling in on nostalgic factor, curiosity factor ("what's the big deal with FF7") and hype factor at the same time. See tranformers for proof.

dkma841

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #243 on: 2015-07-26 14:29:13 »
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« Last Edit: 2021-10-28 16:18:39 by dkma841 »

Tsuna

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #244 on: 2015-07-26 16:57:51 »
Well i dunno, i'm almost sure somewhere else in this forum i read that someone in square enix that's actually working on or was working on ff15 is here with us somewhere. Who's to say the information we give out about isn't being relayed to the remake creators? If we do it right we could have an influence on how its created?

White Wind

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #245 on: 2015-07-26 17:32:06 »
Kpopstars.... That says it all.
They're well known for making bogus articles and they're just living off lying clickbait articles for more ad revenue. Don't believe a word from that website.
So all that is random BS they made up without legit source of proof like all their other articles.

That's what I was going to say, that site is exactly that. They were announcing fake official release dates (not rumours) for the latest GPUs that were to come, that's how I got to know about them. That site is a shame.
But that one article seems legit, on thelifestream.net  you have the full interview that has been translated from Japanese by someone from their forums.

http://thelifestream.net/news/final-fantasy-vii-news/33038/ffvii-remake-nomura-interview-translation-from-famitsu/

So kpopshit just took it and published a part of it without giving any source..

Well i dunno, i'm almost sure somewhere else in this forum i read that someone in square enix that's actually working on or was working on ff15 is here with us somewhere. Who's to say the information we give out about isn't being relayed to the remake creators? If we do it right we could have an influence on how its created?

That's L.Spiro, but I don't know if she/he is working on the remake. And even if it was the case, I really doubt she/he can take any decision on the kinds of matter we're discussing here (which parts of the story will be kept and which won't, elements of gameplay, the battle system, the mood of the game, the humour - etc ).
But that'd be really great if a decision taker from SquareEnix could come here just to read through this thread and see what we're saying, our ideas, our thoughts.. I think there are good points that are said and that are discussed here.
« Last Edit: 2015-07-26 17:34:10 by White Wind »

Covarr

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #246 on: 2015-07-26 17:50:51 »
L. Spiro is an engine programmer. He almost certainly won't have any say in anything related to the game's actual design.

As far as I can tell, the problem we have here is that Nomura and Nojima are stuck in a positive feedback loop. It's not that they don't know people disagree with their opinions, as clearly shown by the Famitsu interview, but that they keep playing yes-man to each other's ideas, regardless of how good or bad they are. And then the games sell anyway, which reaffirms this. So they're trapped in their own little world, where garbage like Advent Children was good, without any incentive to see reality.

For what it's worth, they really are putting their all into this. They really want to make a good product. It's not at all that they're lazy and just pumping something out because they know it will sell, and entirely that they genuinely think that what they're doing is the best thing to do. It's like how Adam Sandler keeps making awful movies, but they keep bringing in money, which tells him that people like them and they are good, so he never has cause to re-evaluate anything.

Tsuna

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #247 on: 2015-07-26 18:16:48 »
I just thought if i were the owner the best way for me to sell this game was to find out exactly what the fans wanted. By now they know there's mods and more than likely know about this forum. A wise choice for them would be to use us to make it perfect. There never gonna find a collection of fans as large as this so its kinda a jackpot to them. I would without a doubt if it was me

Kaldarasha

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #248 on: 2015-07-26 18:38:19 »
They only have to make it modable. That's the only thing I ask for.
If they would come down from their high horses and do this they would get an incredible feedback, which they could use for new projects.

Nomura: There certainly are some staff who put too much of a focus on the ‘VII-ness’ and are resistant to changing it. But that FFVII-ness isn’t something you can easily point to and say ‘that’s it!’ about, and it means different things for different people. I’ve got a lot of attachment to VII myself. But those “feelings” and being “trapped” by the FF of the past are two separate things. If you make up your mind, “‘FF is like this,” then you can’t make FF.

Now I understand it. Someone has told them that FF is like a good JRPG game...  :evil:
Needs someone that tell them that modern FFs are like tradition breakers. Would be interesting how they solve this paradox...

Really my expectation to this remake getting lower and lower after reading it.
« Last Edit: 2015-07-26 18:57:09 by Kaldarasha »

DLPB_

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Re: Final Fantasy VII Remake is HAPPENING!
« Reply #249 on: 2015-07-26 20:41:22 »
Even if FF7r is modable, there are 2 major issues

1. The game will be huge in size and probably a lot of the content will be on disc (and not on Hard drive).  It may well be that modding the game is simply impractical given the files and their formats and sizes.

2. All tools would need to be remade and new formats decoding, and getting people to do that is no easy task.  It's taken years to get us where we are with current FF7 from 1997. 

In other words, putting my usual doom and gloom about, I don't foresee a modded FF7r happening. 
« Last Edit: 2015-07-26 20:43:57 by DLPB »