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Releases / Re: [FF8PC - Steam] Succession Mod (v.1.0)
« on: 2020-12-20 23:28:43 »
Thanks for taking the time to address all my points. I'll just put one big spoiler tag on this thing:
Ha, I was a pretty big fan of the Mass Effect trilogy as well! In part, for this reason.
Yes, one of the biggest problems is the fact that Squall is just silent during the CC match scene. I took note of Quistis' dialogue on the Ragnarok, and it's well done. I think she said something along the lines of "I wish I had someone as brave as you."
I get what you're saying about Rinoa liking Seifer being an indictment of her character, but I personally wouldn't view it that way. I think people fall in love for the wrong reasons and then learn from it. I'm no therapist by any means, but just from personal experience, I'd say: One of the most important parts of building a lasting relationship is making peace with your significant other's past and who they may have loved before you. There was a part of me who thought, "Really, you dated him?" but the more time goes on and the more you fall in love, the less it matters. How much this applies to a video game script about teenage mercenaries fighting a witch from the future, I don't know lol
That's some fascinating insight... The Lunatic Pandora subplot is one of my favorite parts of the story and if they could have illustrated how it was extracted from the ocean via the Deep Sea Research Facility, that would have been cool.
I think you're right about the Laguna scenes getting cut as well. That's what made the Laguna story so puzzling for me, at least when I was playing this for the first time.
I took note of the Ragnarok Laguna/Squall dialogue. This is probably the only scene that it could have been addressed. Just like with Quistis, the problem is: Squall is completely silent.
I can't really think of an explanation either, aside from (1) Rinoa saving his life (2) Edea spares his life to extract information or (3) Squall is dead theory. It's a tough one. Maybe #2 is Occam's razor.
I really tried to take my time with the Odine monologue scene and I even reset the game to re-read a couple parts to fully understand. It is very long, but for me, I really wanted to soak up that knowledge like a sponge. Your new Disc 3 Edea dialogue is well done--I wonder if Edea could offer any further details re: Ultimecia/Succession? Or is the idea that she's really in the dark about some of the in-depth details that Odine knows?
Spoiler: show
Quistis:
Trust me, I feel your pain. If I were actually writing my own fan fiction, I may have made a Mass Effect style 'choose your own adventure', where you could pick Rinoa or Quistis. Or perhaps I would have removed Rinoa altogether. But that's not why I'm here.
I'm looking into the CC match dialogue (which is actually another monologue, unfortunately, since Squall never says anything back), and I'll do what I can. The challenge is that you can complete it whenever you want, so I'll have to be sufficiently vague. Keep in mind that she effectively only has 3 lines to work with, and you'll have to win against her to get them. Expect something like my recent Fire Cavern change, a noticeable improvement, perhaps, but nothing monumental.
Also, don't forget Quistis' dialogue with Squall on the Ragnarok, after they get back from space. That's meant to be the moment where she concedes that Squall will never be happy choosing her over Rinoa. It's not as emphatic as I would have liked, but that's the only manditory scene with the two of them that I can think of after disc 1.
Ha, I was a pretty big fan of the Mass Effect trilogy as well! In part, for this reason.
Yes, one of the biggest problems is the fact that Squall is just silent during the CC match scene. I took note of Quistis' dialogue on the Ragnarok, and it's well done. I think she said something along the lines of "I wish I had someone as brave as you."
Rinoa/Seifer:
Yes. I gave their minor love triangle situation a lot of thought before finally rejecting it. While it does add another layer to the drama, it ultimately falls in the same category as the amnesia. It isn't a bad idea, but it needed far more development in order to justify its inclusion. It was simply one more thing that took precious screen time away from the core elements of the plot. Like the amnesia, it was far more advantageous to cut it out, than to develop it into something good.
One of the main challenges to making their relationship believable is that we don't get a chance to see Seifer behaving as someone who would merit Rinoa's affection. If she liked the person we see as Seifer, it would be an indictment of either her character, or her intelligence, or both. And one of my biggest concerns with Rinoa was how to make her more sympathetic. Having her inexplicably fall for Seifer was a very bad way of achieving that goal.
I get what you're saying about Rinoa liking Seifer being an indictment of her character, but I personally wouldn't view it that way. I think people fall in love for the wrong reasons and then learn from it. I'm no therapist by any means, but just from personal experience, I'd say: One of the most important parts of building a lasting relationship is making peace with your significant other's past and who they may have loved before you. There was a part of me who thought, "Really, you dated him?" but the more time goes on and the more you fall in love, the less it matters. How much this applies to a video game script about teenage mercenaries fighting a witch from the future, I don't know lol
Laguna:
I couldn't agree with you more!
The more time I spend with this story, the more it becomes painfully clear that, during development, they had to rush disc 3 and 4 a lot in order to finish on time. (For example, I have a suspicion that the Deep Sea Research Facility was originally intended to be the place where they recovered the Lunatic Pandora from the ocean.) And when cutting, the first things to go were the Laguna flashbacks. Think of how much story Laguna has to dump on Squall at the very end of the game.
My point is that I think they had originally wanted to develop Squall and Laguna's relationship far more. But since they didn't, there aren't even any scenes to rewrite. This is, again, one more interesting idea that has no scenes to support it. Like with Quistis, I need at least one scene where Laguna and Squall sit down alone and have a chat. When you find that scene, I promise to take a month rewriting it for you.
Also, did you get a chance to talk to Laguna in the Ragnarok after he gives his speech? If you do, Laguna will actually tell Squall that, if Squall survives, he has something he needs to get of his chest, and that the two of them should have a long talk. This assumes that Squall still doesn't realize what Laguna is talking about.
While I wasn't able to write the scene we wanted, I was able to allude to the fact that the two of them would eventually get that scene sometime in the future.
That's some fascinating insight... The Lunatic Pandora subplot is one of my favorite parts of the story and if they could have illustrated how it was extracted from the ocean via the Deep Sea Research Facility, that would have been cool.
I think you're right about the Laguna scenes getting cut as well. That's what made the Laguna story so puzzling for me, at least when I was playing this for the first time.
I took note of the Ragnarok Laguna/Squall dialogue. This is probably the only scene that it could have been addressed. Just like with Quistis, the problem is: Squall is completely silent.
[Re: Squall getting impaled]
I still haven’t come up with a way of explaining this, at least, not without coming off sounding pathetically contrived. Especially because I couldn’t find an appropriate place to insert an explanation that wouldn’t be obviously out of place. So, as of now, I guess it wasn’t as bad as it looked, and Seifer just laughs it off as an inside joke for the players. (Feel free to reply if you have an idea for how, and especially WHERE I would insert such an explanation. I’m at a loss.)
I can't really think of an explanation either, aside from (1) Rinoa saving his life (2) Edea spares his life to extract information or (3) Squall is dead theory. It's a tough one. Maybe #2 is Occam's razor.
I had always wanted to be a bit open-ended in the conclusion, but I should have realized that an effective resolution would depend on knowing EXACTLY what happened. I was hoping that Squall’s discussion with ‘Edea’ at the very end would offer sufficient exposition, but that dialogue is on a timer, and I couldn’t add nearly as much as I had originally wanted.
It’s clear from your feedback that I should work on Odine’s monologue. Our understanding of the entire conclusion rests on his explanation of the events that are to follow. This was a big problem with the vanilla plot, and it’s obviously a struggle for me to overcome. Odine’s monologue is already very long and very dense, and I’m not super excited that I may need to make it even longer.
I’ll work on making Odine more confident in his conclusions, and more explicit about what he knows. I think this is the only way the player will get all the necessary information.
Regarding Ultimecia’s origin, I had always meant for it to be a bit mysterious, primarily because I didn’t really see a way for anyone to ever learn the truth. (I guess I’ll probably have to write that Odine learned that information from Adel, too). I never really decided on one interpretation over another, and I think that at a certain point, it becomes a distinction without a difference. But I had hoped that by providing a certain amount of explanation, while still leaving it open-ended, it would retain an intriguing sense of mystery.
I really tried to take my time with the Odine monologue scene and I even reset the game to re-read a couple parts to fully understand. It is very long, but for me, I really wanted to soak up that knowledge like a sponge. Your new Disc 3 Edea dialogue is well done--I wonder if Edea could offer any further details re: Ultimecia/Succession? Or is the idea that she's really in the dark about some of the in-depth details that Odine knows?
