WEIRD FF8 ENDING?

[ficedula]

So what you're saying is, if there's an unlimited "subdivision" of time (infinitely small units), and there's a finite amount of mass at any instant, that leads in total to unlimited mass?

If that's what you're arguing (I might be understanding you wrong) then that doesn't follow. Think about the area of a rectangle.

[M0T]

I have to ask why you are arguing about this i mean its pointless to argue about anything where there isnt a way to find out.
I see time an endless tape which goes under a recording head  which is the present which means you could rewind it but in doing so the entire point on would be rerecorded with changing anything you had ther slightest contact with but that means you cannot go forwards in time because it has not yet been recorded

[ficedula]

Well, *I'm* not particularly religious, but the whole "why argue when you can't find out" thing has just dismissed all religions as pointless...

Some people (including me) like to argue (I mean intelligent argument here!) just for the sake of the argument. Sometimes you even learn something.

[M0T]

I don't dismiss religion as pointless, it is a method for governments to control the masses.
What I meant was why do you argue about this stuff in a forum dedicated to ff. The reason that the ending was as it was was to try and create a good happy ending it wasn't done with a view to science, they rarely are.    
Also it is pretty pointless to argue about something that has little effect on anyone, if you want to argue about something it should be relevent to the masses

[ficedula]

And what do you define as relevant?

Are you saying you should only discuss things that you personally can affect and that also matter to the majority of other people? Somehow I don't think most people would agree with you there...

And yes, this is a FF forum, but you may have noticed that the general forum is sometimes used to discuss other things. It is a *general* forum, after all.

[M0T]

Yes it is a general forum but it is still odd to be discussing it here.
What I meant by relevent was that it was something to do with the people that read this board.

[M0T]

I dont care if you discuss time travel but to start an argument over it is a bit silly rthen to argue whether time was singular or made up of infinite units is silly odd as something that is infinite is singular. eg a circle is just an infinite number of straight lines but is described as being a singular line.

[Terence Fergusson]

-_-

The general board is a place where any discussion can happen.  So long as the discussions are peaceful and don't get out of hand and don't belong in any other forum, then they are *relevant*.

If you don't want to read the discussion, then don't click on the thread.  This is your choice.

Please bear in mind the mandate of the General Forum: General FF/Square topics belong here, along with stuff that doesn't quite fit in elsewhere.

That second clause means that anything that doesn't fit in the other forums may be discussed here, so long as it doesn't get out of hand enough to require moderation.

Just because *you* see the discussion as pointless and boring, doesn't mean it shouldn't be here or that you should discourage people from participating.  That is not your decision.

You are free to express whatever displeasure you want, but I see a number of regulars to this forum apparently enjoying the discussion, and thus see no reason why it should be prematurely ended at this point.

[Terence Fergusson]

Oh, and the word you're looking for is continuous, not singular.  In addition, what you said had no bearing whatsoever on the discussion, because the continuity of time is not what was under discussion here.

[Aaron]

Time is wierd stuff...  I've tried to figure it out and it just gives me a headache.  When I see a "time" movie or read a "time" book, I try not to think about the details because it might just confuse me, looking for loopholes and inconsistancies and stuff.

ANYWAY
I think that the only part of "time" that exists is RIGHT NOW.  The present.  We cannot travel back in time, because the past does not exist anymore.  It only existed in the past.  The future will exist in the future.  The present is what exists now.

Time travel into the past is impossible, because it could cause some wierd things to happen (like the paradox about you killing yourself, or your parents or something) and also... where are the time travelers?  You'd also think if people ever invent backwards time travel, some insane terrorists might get it and come back and blow up the world with whatever big bombs exist then, causing another similar paradox.  Not to mention, the past doesn't exist anymore and cannot be returned to or altered.

Time travel into the future may be possible, but it wouldn't technically be time travel.  Really, time for a person could somehow be "accellerated" (by, I dunno, whatever space stuff we can do to speed up time) to an extreme rate, causing only seconds to pass for the person but years to pass for everyone else.  However, returning to the past would not be possible.

That's my time theory.

[EDIT]: Clarifications, corrections, editions.  Ok, ok, only one sentence...

[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited April 17, 2001).]

[Threesixty]

Geez......

I was basing all this on FF8....and was trying to make it a little more intresting....and then the forumulas, and theories from, dead people....(Theory of Relativitity and such).

Frankly....It's just boring.

In FF8 there is only one physical TimeTraveling...and that was during TimeCompression. And for whatever, unknown reason, Squall's party was the only ones allowed to move around in that TimeFlow. In FF8, I doubt it was meant to be taken as TimeTraveling....Square made a different plane of Time and called it TimeCompression.....

Ok...Terence. I haven't thought too much about the Junction rules of FF8. But here's what I do know....GF's either choose to be part of Squall's Party, or Squall Steals them by drawing them out of the enemy. Guess there are two types of GF's....the Slaves and the Masters. Masters must be beaten and the Slaves can be taken or maybe the Slaves like working with people, while the Masters feel that there involvment, must be earned.

The GF's allow Squall and Party, to use magic. (For some reason monsters can use magic, too.) And GF's also give Special Abilities to Squall and Party.

Ellone is able to Connect present consciences to Past consciences that she pysically knew. The problem was that even though Squall was in Laguna's mind....Laguna couldn't understand him....maybe Squall's voice was unheard because Squall is really living in the past and not the present. Ultimecia, being from the real present, was able to take control of the person she was in....call it a clearer reception....or maybe it was because she was a sorceress...but that goes against my theory, so I'm sticking to the reception thing.

What are GF's? I like to think of them as DemiGods. Hyne was probably one of these DemiGods. It is said in the game that the Great Hyne Created People....and then the people uprised against him and defeated him....(here is where my memory is fading) What happens next is a deal is struck and the Hyne gives some of his powers/body to the females, of the people, he created. That is when the creation of the Sorceress and the beginning of the powers, begins. (There is no real loop of sorceress power around Ultimecia.....I'll explain the reasoning further down.)

It's also stated in the game, that the powers of the sorceress were known not to be spread, too thin. Which means the powers were in a very limited amount of women. A number that could well be taken as only Edea, Rinoa and Adel during our viewing of the game; and no one else.

Let's go ahead and put Ellone into a non-sorceress catagory....someone with a special ability...a freak of nature. And Adel wanted her as a successor for that, very reason. Ok....Now for your answers....

Ellone's powers could be called Junctioning...like a Plane and a Car can be considered modes of transportation....The same thing...but not really, the same when you analyse the differences.

Edea's powers were fully passed on to Rinoa; Rinoa *HAS* Edea's powers. Thus, you can't say that Ulti got them in the end.

Quit looking at time as a sequence of events, of Past, Present, and Future. Try to look at time from one persons perspective. In FF8, it's Squall's perspective. (heh heh....theory of Relativity in it's truest form...also this will prove that the powers don't really, loop around Ultimecia.) In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered. And Squall's TimeFlow then becomes the Original present. I already went through all of this....and don't feel it's neccessary to write it down, again.

About the happy ending thing:

To me...fate equals no choices. And a life that is based on no choices, isn't my idea of a happy, ending universe. I like to think that we make our own fate, good or bad.

If you view, "FF8" in a linear Past-Present-Future way, then you don't choose your own fate....your fate is predetermined from the beginning of time.

If absorbed my idea of where I was trying to take the story, of FF8. Past-Present-Future are flowing, and the idea of choosing your own fate, comes true. The only flaw that I see, is that in choosing your own fate, you can effect the course of many other fates. Ultimecia's choice of screwing with her own past, effected a lot of thing, in the FF8's Universe.

Being that this has turned into a technical debate of TimeTravel....guess I'll bow out. 'Cause I don't know anything about quantum physics or theories by a bunch of dead people.

BTW: There is a reason why Theories are called theories..... Don't base the Universe on other people's ideas.....use other people's ideas to create your own ideas.

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 17, 2001).]

[Terence Fergusson]

Where do you get Slaves and Masters from?  Once again, you're complicating the subject...

As far as we know, GFs are entities of pure magic.  However, more importantly, they can reside within humans through the use of ParaMagic (created by Dr.Odine).  How do they exist within humans?  We're not sure... but the line between these entities and entities born of simple imagination is *VERY* thin.  Squall created Griever a long time ago... probably shortly after Ellone vanished from his life.  That's what Ultimecia pulls out of Squall's mind.  Griever was the strongest GF in Squall's mind... even though he had never thought of it as a GF before.

Whether they decide to help or hinder the party is up to them, of course.  The GFs you draw are just those that are already clammed up in someone's head, granting them powers (or being imprisoned).

Ellone's power is similar to junctioning because it allows a person to reside within another's mind and grant power to that person... and also to somewhat influence their actions.  Perhaps willpower is the determining power here... even when Squall got sent into Rinoa by Ellone herself, Ultimecia was strong enough to push Squall out when she detected him.

And now, looking at your own answers...

"In Ultimecia's Time Flow...the original time flow...the powers were passed on to her. As soon as she messed with her own past; her true present and her past, (to the point of where she interfered), was altered."

Not possible.  She's using the Ellone Machine.  And Ellon'e power can't change the past.  Ellone has *SAID* this.  It's demonstrated in the game too.

Since she can't alter the past, then from her point of view, she cannot change her present.  Thus, nothing she can do can alter the events that will arrive up to her.

That one critical flaw is really where you're going wrong... because a lot of your arguments are based upon Squall's timeline becoming some kind of 'true present'... which you say can only happen once the past is changed.  And yet... Ulti can't change it.  She's using a machine that's based upon Ellone's own brainwaves... it thus suffers from all the limitations and powers that Ellone had.

Because you haven't proved that Ulti really can change the past, all your previous arguments come undone.

The other thing you're doing is you're misusing the theory of relativity.  You're starting to say that one person's perception of time can alter another person's perception of time.  You keep on trying to hammer this 'original present' idea... which requires more a *VERY* complex version of time travel theory.  You're obviously not using the Quantum Universe theory for instance... your theory has no rules that really states when the 'Original Present' starts and how Ultimecia can affect the events leading up to that.

Your theory seems to be built out of one thing; you don't like the idea of a fated universe, despite a lot of the evidence in FF8 that points to it.  And because you don't like it, you've created another theory to try and explain things.  Maybe with enough tweaking you'll get it to finally work and fit with every piece of evidence in the game and actually have rules better than 'the protagonist stopped time travelling here, so this is where the new present must begin'.  If that's the case, then there's nothing I can do to convince you... but it all seems very unnecessary.

A few more comments.

Squall's party was not the only ones to time travel.  In fact, quite a few people time travelled as well... the Card Queen, the CC Group that had sneaked aboard the Ragnarok....

From that, we come to the conclusion that maybe *every* living being was pulled towards that single point of time where Ultimecia dwelled... but most would be behind the Time Compression shields around the main cities, or may have already been absorbed into Time Compression, as Xu puts it.

(Time Compression was merely a merging of all time into one single Present where time would grind to a halt; everyone was invited)

By the way, if you're still going to persist with this, you should realise this; the character that goes back the furthest using Ellone Power or Time Compression is not Squall.  It's Ultimecia when she enters Young Adel and begins Time Compression.  Squall *NEVER* goes back that far.  Be very careful which time you choose to be the 'original present'...

[Terence Fergusson]

Oh, and as for that final retort...

I've thought of time travel for a very long time now.  Almost everything I've said I came up with alone without help.  I merely used outside sources to help show their validity.

Making up new theories is all very well... but if another model fits the perceived evidence better....

I'm sorry, but as it stands, your theory still seems too contrived.  You even seem to contradict your own theories time and again: (since Squall went back in time and told Edea about SeeD, shouldn't *Edea's* time become the new Original Present then?)

[M0T]

I'm gonna stop with the displeasure thing, I can't remember why I said that and I don't want to be like joey and stupid so I will not post displease again, when things annoy me I will ignore them.
 And just fro the record It isn't boring and just because something is pointless doesn't mean its not interesting.

[The SaiNt]

Fice, I'm not too sure of what you were to trying to say by thinking about the area of rectangle but anyway I'll post a reply just in case what I presume you're trying to say is right.

The area of a rectangle?
Let me see....

This is a rectangle  

code:

<-length->
|========|  ^
|        |  |Height
|        |  |
|========|  | 

[/quote]

This rectangle is enclosed so we can say the area has area.
Since it is enclosed, it should have a finite amount of area.

Was this what you were trying to say, Fice?
No matter how small we divide the units of measurement(for the length or the height), the area for the rectangle stays finite.

Well, let me illustrate my idea further.

Let's assume we take the example of an apple.
And we assume that the apple is the only form of mass in the universe  
We again assume that the apple is of x mass.
Now, let's say 1 second later, I decide to smash the apple.
The apple is disfigured now  
Now, after making some calculations, the smashed apple is still of x mass
After that, the smashed apple decides to travel back to the past.
When it travels back to 1 second ago before it was smashed, there will be now a total mass of 2x at that second of time thus upsetting the whole mass of the universe at that time.
You see, the apple was only one second away from the smashed apple.
What if we divided a second into miliseconds?
Then we would have even more duplication of mass that "could" upset the balance of mass even more.
Now, back to the idea of unlimited "subdivision" of time (infinitely small units).
With such a division, there would be an infinite amount of mass, wouldn't it?
As you can see, at any moment of time, there can only be a finite amount of mass (the mass of one apple)
Since only a finite amount of mass "should" exist an any point of time, time travel would be illogical.
Do you follow me now?

[This message has been edited by The SaiNt (edited April 17, 2001).]

[Qhimm]

I can't agree with you regarding the mass turning infinite over time. Your argument is valid up to the point where you say "there will be now a total mass of 2x at that second of time". The apple exists in a point in time, not in a second of time. Just like a coordinate of space doesn't refer to a certain cm^3, rather a point within it.

You're talking as if the apple's mass somehow stretched over a period of time. This is just like a cube. For every point in the z dimension, it has width and height (but no depth). The volume and mass stay finite, no matter how much you divide the z axis into smaller units. The same applies to time. If you somehow wanted the total mass of a constant object during a time period, you would take the mass and multiply it by the number of seconds (SI unit), thus giving us the total mass-time in kg·s. Nothing goes infinite, it's just like a simple integrated function.

The only way you would get an infinite mass-time is if time itself was infinite (no beginning/no end) and you wanted to calculate the total mass-time of the universe or something.

The total matter duplication of going a second back in time is x kg·s, where x is the mass of the object going back in time. Going two seconds back gives a matter duplication of 2x kg·s, etc.

[ficedula]

Yes ... if the mass before the apple appeared was X, after the apple has travelled back it's X + (weight of apple). What's the problem...?

[Qhimm]

It's not good to change the total mass of the universe. IIRC, there are quite a lot of physical theories which requires the total mass to be constant. Besides, imagine the possible consequences! If we get enough time travelers back in time, the total mass of the universe could increase enough to change a fate of a forever expanding universe to a universe that ends in a Big Crunch. Quite dire.

No, it is best for all if the mass remains constant.

Hmm... there was this particle... a lot of theories required their count to remain constant, but I *cannot* remember its name. Damn...

[Threesixty]

I'm not counterdicting myself.....your just either skimming over my posts...or your just remembering what you want to remember.

If you review, you'll find that I haven't altered, in my overall story. I said Ultimecia's was in the real present and Squall is in her ancient history.

We are viewing the story as a paradox is taking place, and are viewing it from the past. Not from a future (Ultimecia) perspective, but from Squall's Perspective. I then threw some speculations that are supported in the story, to make it all fit nicely together.

I'm also aware of two version of the Hyne story, in FF8. One is told by the old man? ( Could be a woman) in Balamb. (the hyne cut himself in half and gave the people the part of him that had the lesser magic). The other version is told on the White Seed ship (the hyne turned into two halfs....two complete halfs, and gave part of himself to the people, which later turned out to be only his Shedded Skin and apparently had no powers in it). I was going by the Balamb version. The white SeeD version, doesn't make very much, sense to me.

I made up the Master/Slave GF thing for a lack of better terms....Every GF in the game is either stolen, Found, or Defeated. I had to plug in that with the GF's being lesser Gods from the same Universe that the Hyne lives in...and that Master/Slave thing was what came to mind. It really doesn't apply to my discussion of Time in FF8...but I felt it was a good enough to support the idea that the Hyne is a God (of sorts)....made people and gave the people some of his powers. And when people Junction GF's they are really getting help from Gods of FF8. I was just setting up a barrier between Ellone and the GF's, nothing more.

Now, I've been saying both these things from the very beginning.

1. The past can't change the past...but the present can, and
2. We are viewing the story from Squall's Time, which is truly the past.

Ultimecia's Time is truly the present. The future beyond Ultimecia is not written. There is no fated story, for her. She's making choices and they are having consquences that we are viewing from Squalls perspective.

Maybe you need a different example. Imagine writing a story.....and finishing it. And then going back to the middle of the finished story and rewriting a certain detail. And that detail effect every thing from that point of the story on forward. The original ending is in the wastebacket....and your currently doing a rewrite.

That's how I picture FF8. A history that is being rewritten, because of Ultimecia's influences. Her timeline is in the wastebasket, because she died in the past. That's why we see the paradox in Squall's Present and not Ultimecia's Present. If Ultimecia had made it back to her own Present. The paradox would have been seen there, instead. And the story would have been written as such....which would have made a less, magical story and a much shorter one.

This is the main reason why we see the influences that Squall made in his own past and the reasoning of his fate of  distroying Ultimecia. I'm, now, talking about the SeeD/Garden/Edea thing that you keep trying to throwing in my face. All that happens and is remembered, because Squall made it back to his original Timeline. When Ultimecia Died in that past, the torch was passed on to Squall. The only reason it was fated was because Squall went to the past and Ultimecia died in that same past. In my reasoning...Squall going into the past is the only loop in the story, everything else is very, linear. Well....maybe the Adel power thing is a loop, too. But I didn't think about that one until the middle of these postings, while I was making my flowchart. (man work has been really heavy...can't fix any of the misspellings in the flowchart. LOL)

To put my basic theory of timetravel in FF8, even shorter....Changing the past from the past, isn't possible. Changing the past from the present is possible....Changing the future is "Not Applicable" (N/A). All of these things are supported in FF8. And that's my main concern...real life not need, apply.

Yes, it's more complex....but that's why I think it's fun to think about. But I don't find re-explaining things very, fun....
I was hoping that some holes in my theory could be found through controversy....but your just countering it with a more common theory.....Apples and Oranges as far as I'm concerned.

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 18, 2001).]

[Terence Fergusson]

And again, you seem to be picking and choosing the presents and pasts as you like, without any rules.

Think about this... when the present is Ellone's time, can she change the past?  Remember... Ellone's past is not a result of any of Ultimecia's changes... thus, she'd *always* try to get Laguna to return to Raine.  So, if I'm writing this story, and I get to Ellone's part, and she decides to try and change the past... well, according to your rules, she should succeed, shouldn't she?

She doesn't.  She fails miserably.

Ellone's usage of her power is the first instant of time travel.  Yet you conveniently ignore it so you can go ahead and make Ultimecia's time the 'true present'.

I'd call that a flaw.

In addition, you've come up with all these laws which seem completely screwy.  If a time traveller dies and doesn't go back to their own time, why does that mean their timeline is automatically destroyed?  And why does Squall now carry the 'torch'?  Shouldn't Edea's be the true present then since the change took place there?

You're placing too much importance on the time traveller, and not enough importance on the actions that traveller takes.

And again, as I've told you before, there's no *need* for FF8 to be a paradox.  I've outlined theories before that work well without a paradox being created.

Look, if you want to view FF8 in that way, I'm not going to stop you.  I disagree with the theories for various reasons (screwy laws that seem designed to ignore certain events and wait until you want them to work, and the fact that various symbolism works better within the story if you use the theory I've outlined)... but I'm sure if you add enough rules and tweak it enough you'll get something that works... but I think you'd lose a few things Square was trying to show.

The most important sentence that reflects this is Edea in Disc 3.  I've said it before, but I'll say it again:

"I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be."
"Therefore...Squall?"
"You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!"

You can explain this away in many different ways... but the symbolism is *STRONGEST* if the past has already been changed by Ultimecia.

Really, there's nothing more to say.  If we continue this particular part of the debate, you will eventually create a theory that makes sense within FF8 and works towards an ending you, personally, want.  However, I still do not believe it is a theory Square intended to use, and I feel that FF8 loses a bit of its symbolism because of it.

It's clear that we're not going to be able to convince each other, so I'm going to leave this here.  While it has been nice discussing this with you, retreading the same ground is becoming tiring, and both of us obviously remain unconvinced ^_^

So... up for a truce?  ^_^

[The SaiNt]

I'm gonna end my rantings here.
No point going on...

[Qhimm]

This thread suddenly took a turn back for the worse, i.e. FF8's story. I can't muster the strength needed to keep up with another one of these discussions...

[Threesixty]

Truce? I never considered it as a war.

Really I'm just trying to gather some idea's together....maybe I'll write a report on it or something and put it on my webpage.

Hey! you have a point! Ellone had wanted to change the past way before Ultimecia started all that trouble......That was the kinda feedback I was looking for...., come to think of it, she sent Squall to the past before Ultimecia started taking possesion over Edea. At least that's the conclusion I got from the story. Remember when the President was looking freaked out of what Edea was saying, before the parade....like if....the speech was supposed to be legit, or something. Honestly I never understood that speech....The audience had to hear her, right? Why did the parade continue? I would have thought that the audience would have turned against her at that moment, if they payed any attention to what she was saying.

I got to the Space scene you talked about before (seems like a long time ago), and now I know what you were talking about. Ultimecia tells Squall to get out, when Ellone send him to that moment in time, but I can't figure out how that really hurts my little theory.

Regardless, my idea is not totaly abandoned....Remember my idea of Adel getting her powers because Ellone sent Ultimecia and Rinoa into, a young, Adel to start Time Compression? (The Time Compression didn't happen instantly....maybe Time flows the same in all timelines? And that is the reason for the delay?) If Adel never recieved her powers Laguna's timeline would have been greatly altered....

This is kinda cool, if you think about it. It's even deeper than FF7. Too bad Square didn't put any focus into these parts of the game (then again maybe it's just too hard to do it sucessfully, so they decided not to touch the subject.).

Just consider it, for a few moments. If Adel was never a sorceress, then everything would be different. Laguna would have married Rinoa's Mom. Rinoa wouldn't have been born, Squall wouldn't have been born. Garden and SeeD wouldn't have ever existed. Maybe this is what Edea meant about fighting to the end?I'm sure a lot of other things could be found that would be even more intresting. Like what if Ellone would then become, evil.

Evil? How, you say? I just discovered this dialog, last night...when you talk to one of the guys outside Odine's lab, right before you go back inside to get Odine. (It's during the last flashback to Laguna the one where he finally finds Ellone). Laguna tells a story where Ellone put Jam in his shoes. It is then noted that Ellone is a little bratt. I got a real kick out of that dialog, mainly because I never read it before. So maybe she would have been evil, if it wasn't for Laguna. This is way too far fetched though...because then she wouldn't have lost her parents, and wouldn't have a real reason to have that anger. (I brainstorm a lot when I write...and the only time I write are on Forums so everything here is a brainstorm...actually I never thought about any of this until the post on 4-02-01.)

All I'm trying to do is pull more magic out of FF8. I know we can all agree that FF8 doesn't have very much of that stuff. It has it's moments...but they are far and few between.

I guarantee next time you play the game, and think about what I've been proposing....you'll start to see what FF8 could have been or could mean. And you'll noticed that it's not that far of a leap from what's in the game.

....I guess my theory is based more on the alternative dimentions thing you were talking about earlier. Kinda Dragon Ball Z style (the one with the androids....   I didn't know about DBZ until Cartoon Network started playing them, and that's as far as they are, currently.).

....I'm only saying that Ultimecia's time gets thrown away, because Ultimecia dies in the past. This leaves an opening for radical thinking. If Ultimecia never returns to her present time (the future) does "that" future really exist? You can take the standard view and say yes it does. Or you can take the radical view and say it doesn't. I'm just trying to put logic behind the radical view.

Does time have an ending? or does it go on indifinitly. I choose indifinitly. Seems most people like the idea of Time having an  ending. (To me, looping of time is the same as time ending. What could be worse than
reliving your mistakes?   )

I like to believe that, if you go back in time and change something...the changes will be true changes...and not just fated changes. I like to believe that traveling to the future doesn't matter, but going to the past does. Also, that everything in the past is "locked in" until a TimeTraveler interfers with it. Then all hell breaks lose. I also like to believe that you can only travel to one instant in the past one, single time.

To me, everything revolves around the TimeTraveler. And in FF8 Ultimecia is the Timetraveler, everything else is just a reaction to her traveling to the past. And we, as viewers, are watching the changes through Squall's eye's. A paradox in the making, but never completed because Ultimecia never returns to her present to rein the benfits.

In my idea...Ultimecia's history has no timetravler in it. Ultimecia is the first to travel into the past. It's a very hard concept to put in words and make rules for....but the three rules I came up with are the best way I can explain it.

Thanks to the discusion here, I found out that the main problem to my theory is, How does Ultimecia discover Timetravel in the first place? If what I say is true...then...how? I need to solve this in a way that it can be accepted. It's very easy to say that, everything is fated and forget about the story of FF8 and then say it's just your average Timetravel story......but if I can figure out an explanation it would put a whole new twist on FF8 and add to it's replayablility...at least one more time.

Hey! FF8 is more like FF7 than I thought. The only difference is that FF7 doesn't have an ending, and FF8 doesn't have a beginning. Remember everyone in FF8 land concluded that Edea got her powers from Adel. And it turned out to be false. Now everyone believe's that Ultimecia got Timetravel from Ellone. Maybe she didn't. Maybe it came from a different source. And Ultimecia found out about Ellone during her possesion of Edea and the idea of Time Compression later on. I never thought FF7 and FF8 would be so much alike. (Wouldn't you like that type of aspect from a Square Final Fantasy game? I may not have everything down pat....but It comes very, very close to being a Final Fantasy Story that "Awes".)

Well, "I" think it puts a whole, new light on FF8. And gives FF8 the same mystery that FF7 has....I never denied the default theory of FF8....I'm just looking for reasons to keep it on my harddrive and everyone else harddrive, too.

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances," or "When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

...and sure makings for a boring story.

well....guess that's it, then.... I'll go back to the shadows, now..... Heh, heh....At 50+ post, since August, I'd guess that you'll be doing the same   .

It's not, how much you post...it's what you post.

(I've own FF8PC since it hit the shelves and I still haven't gotten Eden, Bahmaut or Toneberry, or Doom Train....This run through is the first time I became a friend of the Chocobo's...in the past I would just ride them out of the forest...I never knew that there were hidden items in that forest. I'm going to try to get those missing GF's this time around....I'm curious on what the Summons look like. I wonder what else I've missed in the game.)

[This message has been edited by Threesixty (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Qhimm]

(Longest post ever on this board) *points up*

[Anonymous]

Ummm. . I just wanted to say that I took a little bit of a different take than ThreeSixty on the whole blurry memory thing.

I see it as Squall still felt that a part of himself was in the past. There was something left he needed to know, so he fell in a time warp and then there was that little scene - I totally agree with ThreeSixty about the sorceress shin dig. Well , he felt secure about leaving. This didn't change his past - it clarified it to him. He went on a search for them, his mind wandered and he walked seemingly unendlessly. He finally came to a rift in time. He falls to the ground with fatigue. Meanwhile Rinoa is running through the field searching. He grabs for a feather, reminding him of her. All of the memories come flooding over him. Everything is blurred. She is slipping away from him. The image of her in space is a horrifying disorientation of a memory. He sort of thinks "What If". He could never live without her. He goes unconcious. She feels the connection and goes to him. I agree with you from that point on.
    Anyhow - why complicate it???