[FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]

[DLPB_]

You can pretend that when the guy saw him, there was no glove

[White Wind]

I guess so ^_^
It's well known that Sephy has tricky gloves

[DLPB_]

Anyway, a bigger problem would be that Jenova is like The Thing.  It/She does not have the ability to shape shift into non cellular material.  I guess they can get away with it in FF7 more because they can say it's magic - but I say bull.  In fact, shape shifting is something that a lot of sci fis also deploy and it's pretty much scientifically impossible for it to work like that.  But, FF7 does get some leeway being a fantasy

[Covarr]

Obviously, his clothes is just cellular material that LOOKS like fabrics and armor, etc.

[DLPB_]

Obviously, his clothes is just cellular material that LOOKS like fabrics and armor, etc.

I ain't buying that either.  His sword was sure real and metal

[Dubular]

I ain't buying that either.  His sword was sure real and metal

While I struggle to believe that the sword was actually a part of Jenova, I feel like it's the only explanation that makes sense, and here's why:

When Sephiroth is initially thrown into the lifestream, he is still holding the masamune. It is described at least once in the game as a sword that ONLY Sephiroth could wield. Later, when Jenova breaks out of Shinra, the masamune makes its appearance being impaled in President Shinra. Note that at this point, Jenova has left the building. The odds of this being the same masamune that Sephy had when thrown are not good. The original is most likely still in the Northern Crater at this point.

Now why would anyone make a second masamune, if the only man who could wield it, already had one? It's possible that Shinra had a second one lying around, but highly unlikely.

Now my memory is fuzzy as I haven't played through in a while, but I know that the masamune makes another appearance during the unfortunate events at the Forgotten Capital. Seeing as the first sword was in the crater, and the second left at shinra, I think it's safe to say that this is a separate instance of the masamune.

Now you're probably thinking "Oh this guy forgot about the Gold Saucer, they just hand them out willy nilly there." I'll grant you that it is POSSIBLE. I won't deny that. But I think it's far more logical to assume that this theme park of sorts is not handing out deadly weapons, but rather cheap replicas (I'd be surprised if it'd be real metal). Sure, if you have Seph in your party, you can equip it, but that was never supposed to be possible, so why would Square bother making a second item when they could just reuse one they already have.

In conclusion, while I don't think the idea that the swords he's using are indeed metal can be completely discounted, I find it highly unlikely that he is just finding perfect copies of the masamune along the way. Certainly not to the extent that he can just leave one behind purely for the nuts of it. Therefore I think it most likely that the swords are indeed a part of Jenova itself. This is but one man's humble opinion.

Edit: After posting this, I remembered that the line I was thinking of about Sephiroth being the only one who could wield the masamune was from the original translation, and that perhaps the more faithful translation you've completed may make the meaning of the line different. I haven't gotten that far, but if this is the case, then I will concede that multiple legitimate copies of the masamune could exist, depending on how the translation worked out.

[luksy]

Now you're probably thinking "Oh this guy forgot about the Gold Saucer, they just hand them out willy nilly there."

I'm not, does anyone believe the GS Masamune Blades were meant to be anything other than toys?

I think you're putting too much thought into this, Chekhov's Gun the Masamune is used in all of those scenes simply because it's part of Sep's character design, much like Cloud's impossibly spiky hair. If you overanalyze every single detail you're bound to find plot holes at some point, you can try to plug them if you want to ("clearly Cloud is a master hairdresser") but I'm not convinced the writers were overly concerned about the implications of when and where the Masamune was shown.

[DLPB_]

Exactly - it's a game and a deliberate plot hole. Like all shape shifting abilities, everyone knows it is unrealistic but it can't really be explained adequately. A fiction will always have elements that don't work or make sense, the trick is to make sure those elements are easily ignored and that you can suspend disbelief to them.

The writers are human and they made mistakes and / or did not really care about certain parts not being believable.  Jenova shape shifting into a clothed Sephiroth with a sword simply doesn't work on any level, but it has to be allowed or we'd just get naked Sephiroth or not see him wandering around at all (He leaves his sword behind that is supposed to be one of a kind that only he can wield, and then he has a new one straight after, too).  And, as I said, shape shifting doesn't really work anyway.  It is more palatable in FF7 because it is a fantasy that has magic.  It's a total no no in sci fi unless handled properly (The Thing did a pretty good job and even showed that clothes are being shredded and replaced manually.  Star Trek Deep Space Nine broke more than one fundamental law of physics).

It's possible to explain away every plot hole and nonsensical plot device with a fantastic excuse, but the end result is the same: it's a fantastic excuse.

[Ansem]

Pfft, it's been a thing for ages that Sephiroth keeps spawning his blade out of thin air. I mean, he did that (animatedly, mind you) immediately upon entrance in Advent Children, and again in Crisis Core his sword just appeared in his hand after he ripped the Jenova "statue" apart.

[White Wind]

As much as I like to fill plot holes myself (yeah..) and try to rationalize things, I agree with luksy and DLPB. I have fun with more in-depth analyzing -for me it's part of loving a story, you think deeper about it, you put pieces together, and it stimulates your imagination- but in the real world there are just oversights from the writers.

But I like your post Dubular, I was about to try something like that, but you did very well.
But if the swords were actually parts of Jenova, that would complicate the Reunion x) I'm fine with the Masamune (as a sword) popping out like in AC, as I consider each appearance of it as an instance of THE Masamune (like THE "concept" of Masamune, the source... in a platonian way).

About the shape-shifting, I will just add that it is hinted that Jenova did the same when she arrived on Earth already, tricking the Cetra into believing that she was one of them, in order to infect them.

[Green_goblin]

Regarding Jenova, I never understood why is she inside a winged virgin Mary:



But that is just the protecting cover, in reality Jenova is inside a cryogenic machine, and here in fact looks like a young mutant girl:



During the game they say that it was some kind of alien organism that came by accident in a meteor.

Please rehost images (I recommend imgur) instead of hotlinking them from other sites; a lot of sites will prevent them loading correctly on forums, and it's simply not nice to steal their bandwidth. I've fixed this post for you. ~Covarr

[DLPB_]

The writers liked the design, I guess.

[DLPB_]

http://i.imgur.com/yHna6qn.png

All hail IlDucci, who has fixed us up some new icons for the Steam /1998 version and put up with my constant pestering to tweak this that and other

[White Wind]

During the game they say that it was some kind of alien organism that came by accident in a meteor.

Am I the only one who think that that meteor used to be a planet infected by Jenova? I'm pretty sure it is strongly implied. That's what Jenova is trying to do with the Earth: infect it from its root. That makes sense for a virus of that kind to try to spread not only throughout a planet, but also throughout the galaxy. And then it would be the Earth which would serve as a vessel and would crash as a meteor onto another planet, hurt it, and propagate Jenova, and use it, and so on and on. Jenova is a cosmic virus.
That's always what I thought, and then I was happy when in AC I heard Sephiroth talking about the Earth as a future vessel for Jenova.. that kinda confirmed what I was thinking all that time.

I hope I'm not the only one x)

[Dubular]

But if the swords were actually parts of Jenova, that would complicate the Reunion x)

Haha I definitely got a bit carried away. Part of it is that it's only been recently that I fully understood that Jenova had shapeshifted at all. When I was younger I thought that the Sephiroth that was walking around was a telepathic projection. When I found out how wrong I was, it just got me really curious into how that had all worked out, and it's kinda fascinated me since.

Though to finish off the discussion of the sword, I will say that the world of FF7 clearly doesn't abide by the science that the real world does (eg lifestream, materia, Cloud's huge-ass sword, etc) which is why I was willing to write off shapeshifting into clothes/swords as plausible. But yeah, thinking about it, the Masamune left at Shinra HQ does just seem like an oversight, as they needed something for Cloud to recognize. It's been fun to think about though .

Am I the only one who think that that meteor used to be a planet infected by Jenova? I'm pretty sure it is strongly implied. That's what Jenova is trying to do with the Earth: infect it from its root. That makes sense for a virus of that kind to try to spread not only throughout a planet, but also throughout the galaxy. And then it would be the Earth which would serve as a vessel and would crash as a meteor onto another planet, hurt it, and propagate Jenova, and use it, and so on and on. Jenova is a cosmic virus.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I mean it certainly fits. I was always under the impression that Jenova just wanted to suck up the lifestream and leave the planet as an empty husk, but I don't see why your idea couldn't be true.

[White Wind]

it's only been recently that I fully understood that Jenova had shapeshifted at all.

Tell me about it, I just realised yesterday xD reading through these last posts !
I was under the exact same assumption that it was a telepathic projection from the North Crater, even seeing people talking about shape-shifting, to me it just referred to the projection having Sephiroth's shape, and then yesterday I was all OMG x)
It's funny you said that, that's exactly my boat ^_^

That's an interesting way to look at it. I mean it certainly fits. I was always under the impression that Jenova just wanted to suck up the lifestream and leave the planet as an empty husk, but I don't see why your idea couldn't be true.

Both are compatible. The Planet tries to heal itself from a great injury with a huge amount of Lifestream, Jenova sucks all of it up and after will continue to parasite the Planet till Holy dies, Sephiroth at the center of the wound becomes the almighty soul of the soon-to-be-wasted planet, they are now like the nerve center of the planet and when they need more "food" they decide to move on to propagate Jenova and to parasite another planet.

And I see Sephiroth as an extension of Jenova, he was born as that. Jenova's cells grew up within him as he was growing up, and made what he is and who he is. For me he is like fused with Jenova. Like they both live through each other.
Sephiroth could even be the mind behind Sephiroth-shaped Jenova.

[Matski]

Hiya DLBP et al,

Been an avid lurker of this project for a while but have decided to speak only now that I've had the opportunity to start going through the retranslated version of the game. I've been taking notes as I go along and here's what I have so far:

Beginning of game: “Ex-Soldier, huh? Don't trust ya!”
How about..: “Ex-Soldier, huh? Well I don't trust ya.”

The quote above represents an entire subject area rather than just an individual change. I know you've been trying to implement broken British slang into the project to add flavour but I'm finding that a few other testers think they're grammatical errors instead. Sorry to say but I don't think it's worked as well as you intended and would at least recommend changing such lines for the US version.

Fight for Sector 7 Pillar: “If things get too hairy, we'll scarper”
How about..: “If things get too hairy, we'll scamper”

Yet again, as scarper is British slang I'd recommend changing the phrase above at least in the US version. Having never heard the phrase before, an American colleague thought it was a spelling mistake.

Beginning of the Nibelheim Flashback: “Up until then.”
How about..:“Up until one day...”

Sounds slightly odd. Although the alternative I've suggested sounds cheesy, I feel it would go down better with players. If you do change it, don't forget to also change Aerith's repeat line after to match it.

Nibelheim Flashback: “He was a walking mass of complexes”
How about..: “He is a walking mass of complexes” or “I remember him being a walking mass of complexes”

Misused tense - possibly infers that Hojo is dead.  Depending on how much you think Hojo is still a part of Sephiroth's life I would recommend either of these lines instead.

Nibelheim Flashback: “What are you going to do about this grief!?'”...
How about..: “What about all of my grief?”...

I think that's what is meant, right?

Mythril Cave: “Leno sends his warm regards. He's hoping to meet you again after the wounds heal up.”
How about..: “Leno sends his warm regards. He's looking forward to crossing your path again, after his wounds heal up.”

Just some grammatical changes here.

Mythril Cave: “Now that you're best friends he wants to share his new weapon with you all”
How about..: “Now that you're best friends, he wants you to be the first to meet his new weapon.”

This one's a bit petty but I think it reads slightly better.

Fort Condor 1st time - Red XIII: “Yes, We'll lend a hand.”
How about..:“Yes, we'll lend a paw.”

This last request is another petty change but I think from Red XIII's view it would be what he'd say.

That's as far as I have played up to.

Haha I definitely got a bit carried away. Part of it is that it's only been recently that I fully understood that Jenova had shapeshifted at all. When I was younger I thought that the Sephiroth that was walking around was a telepathic projection. When I found out how wrong I was, it just got me really curious into how that had all worked out, and it's kinda fascinated me since.
...

I've long felt that the sword used to kill President Shinra is indeed a shape-shifted part of Jenova, rather than the actual Masamune. I get the impression that Jenova doesn't have a problem being physically separated for long periods of time and that through 'reunion' she can command her various strands to travel and reform when desired.

In the game, it is Sephiroth who controls Jenova. He has a remarkable strength-of-will, which is part of the reason he wasn't fully disseminated into the lifestream and it was this willpower that allows him to control Jenova, rather than vice-versa. When Cloud comes into close-contact with Jenova in the Shinra building, the meeting actually triggers Sephiroth into slowly awakening from his slumber in the northern crater. That night he tells Jenova to break free and take on his original appearance as she works her way up to the top floor. Hence the notable claw marks and blood trail slowly desisting as you work your way up the building, after being released.

EDIT: As for what I remember about the Masamune you can win at the Gold Saucer, isn't it noted as being a replica while highlighted in the inventory?

[DLPB_]

Beginning of game: “Ex-Soldier, huh? Don't trust ya!”
How about..: “Ex-Soldier, huh? Well I don't trust ya.”

That doesn't sound slangy enough and comes across as awkward for Barrett.

Fight for Sector 7 Pillar: “If things get too hairy, we'll scarper”
How about..: “If things get too hairy, we'll scamper”

I'll add that to the American option, with Covarr's blessing.  Although I am not sure "scamper" works here as well.

Beginning of the Nibelheim Flashback: “Up until then.”
How about..:“Up until one day...”

There is nothing wrong with the original and changing it is purely a choice.  I prefer the former.

Nibelheim Flashback: “He was a walking mass of complexes”
How about..: “He is a walking mass of complexes” or “I remember him being a walking mass of complexes”

Again, an unnecessary change and Sephiroth is talking about the past.

Nibelheim Flashback: “What are you going to do about this grief!?'”...
How about..: “What about all of my grief?”...

Former sounds better and more like something someone would say.

Mythril Cave: “Leno sends his warm regards. He's hoping to meet you again after the wounds heal up.”
How about..: “Leno sends his warm regards. He's looking forward to crossing your path again, after his wounds heal up.”

Needlessly bloated and doesn't flow well.

Mythril Cave: “Now that you're best friends he wants to share his new weapon with you all”
How about..: “Now that you're best friends, he wants you to be the first to meet his new weapon.”

Unnecessary change.  Both are pretty good.  If that former one is correct, I think I am missing a comma, though.  I don't remember the comma missing.

Fort Condor 1st time - Red XIII: “Yes, We'll lend a hand.”
How about..:“Yes, we'll lend a paw.”

That would come across as totally out of place.  Red has also been raised by humans.  He's also using "we" not "I".

The project is finalized too.  I'm not changing any of the dialogue unless it is in error or there is a grammar /spelling mistake.  Or if something doesn't work in American English.

[Covarr]

Scarper should be scamper. I thought I brought this one up before, but maybe I missed it.

The comma after "friends" is optional (dependent clauses don't strictly NEED a comma), but I highly recommend it for fluidity.

[obesebear]

Scamper should be skedaddle!

[DLPB_]

Scamper should be skedaddle!

Depends on context... I'm not sure an adult would use that when a pillar is collapsing.  I think it might be best that I just use "We'll be leaving" "We'll be out of here" "We're off" "we're going"  etc.  We use skedaddle at the Chocobo Farm "They'll skedaddle at the drop of a hat"

[Covarr]

If it was Cid, "scoot" would work pretty well (pretty common usage in US south). I think "dash" or "bolt" would do fine for anyone else.

[DLPB_]

Where I live we'd say something like "We're doin' one"  haha  or something similar.

[obesebear]

We're doin one? 

I feel like if I ever visit the UK, I'll also have to take some classes to learn the language.

[DLPB_]

We're doin one? 

I feel like if I ever visit the UK, I'll also have to take some classes to learn the language.

haha, yeah.  I think it might be North West slang, but I guess whole of UK would know what it meant. 

"Do one" can mean to "flit" (leave)  or it can be a command by someone telling you to F off.  "Do one!" is pretty much as offensive as F off.  But "I am doing one down south" mean to simply move down south.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/do-one
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flit