Author Topic: The leaked documents (Read 9727 times)

Kudistos Megistos · « **on:** 2010-11-29 19:53:41 »

For those of you who have been living under a rock for the past few days

So, what do people think of the leaked documents and the effects they might have on international politics.

TBH, it looks like none of them said anything that wasn't fairly well known already: The Americans hate European leaders and the UN, the Arabs hate the Iranians (geez, what's next? Protestants hate Catholics?) and the Israelis want to bomb the Iranians. The only really interesting thing to come out of this, AFAIK, is the revelation that the Saudis asked the Americans to bomb Iran. Interesting.

What's going to be more entertaining is watching everyone apologise to each other and seeing all the awkward moments. When world leaders meet, it will be like it is when someone catches you saying something bad about them. No doubt there'll be some red faces at the UN over the next few weeks. I can't wait the see what happens between King Abdullah and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Opine · « **Reply #1 on:** 2010-11-29 20:10:19 »

I don't know how I feel about all the wikileaks. I think I am leaning towards happy - because I'd like a more transparent government.
Edit: I have solidified a positive opinion. *thumbs up*

pyrozen · « **Reply #2 on:** 2010-11-29 20:30:43 »

Most of it seems like speculative documents, though the spying is kinda interesting. I'd like to see more governments around the world get their documents leaked, it's definitely not like the US is the only country using these sorts of tactics. Further proof that world peace is impossible IMHO, even allied countries don't fully trust each other.

There is also a possibility that the docs were created and leaked on purpose to fulfill some kind of agenda in the future.

Bosola · « **Reply #3 on:** 2010-11-29 21:24:29 »

Quote from: pyrozen on 2010-11-29 20:30:43

even allied countries don't fully trust each other

Of course. Mossad, for instance, had agents discovered in the US a few years ago, and allies probably spy on one another all the time. It's a fair assumption that most intelligence agencies:

* work on planned redundancy (it's safer to spy on everyone)
* don't wait for partnerships to go sour before dispatching agents to an area (because at that point, infiltration becomes difficult)
* don't want to wait for info that concerns their interests is revealed (or partially-revealed) through the normal diplomatic channels

It's probably sane, for instance, to assume that the French attempt to subjugate UN autonomy too, that China has hundreds of operators in its dangerously uncontrollable 'ally' North Korea, and that the British SIS keep a close eye on American internal affairs, what with our relationships with the Saudis. I'd be very surprised if the opposite was true.

Kudistos Megistos · « **Reply #4 on:** 2010-11-30 22:38:17 »

Quote from: Bosola on 2010-11-29 21:24:29

Of course. Mossad, for instance, had agents discovered in the US a few years ago, and allies probably spy on one another all the time. It's a fair assumption that most intelligence agencies:

* work on planned redundancy (it's safer to spy on everyone)
* don't wait for partnerships to go sour before dispatching agents to an area (because at that point, infiltration becomes difficult)
* don't want to wait for info that concerns their interests is revealed (or partially-revealed) through the normal diplomatic channels

It's probably sane, for instance, to assume that the French attempt to subjugate UN autonomy too, that China has hundreds of operators in its dangerously uncontrollable 'ally' North Korea, and that the British SIS keep a close eye on American internal affairs, what with our relationships with the Saudis. I'd be very surprised if the opposite was true.

Definitely.

The reason why the US is the only country to have their spying secrets exposed like this is because the rest of the world can be divided into two types of country:

countries that no-one cares about (such as the UK), and

countries in which anyone who did this kind of thing would have a mysterious accident.

Actually there's a third set whose only member is Israel. They just don't give a f*ck.

nfitc1 · « **Reply #5 on:** 2010-12-01 05:35:35 »

Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-11-30 22:38:17

countries that no-one cares about (such as the UK),

...because they only think of themselves and their foreign policy is "look the other way/don't get involved". Sometimes I think that might be a good thing.

Really though, I think it's unrealistic of most nations to NOT suspect nations they're dealing with. China certainly has reason to be suspect of N.Korea and vice versa. I'd also probably say "the truth hurts, live with it" and leave it like that. Unfortunately most cultures that focus more on personal presentation rarely deal with problems they have and would probably consider what happened an act of war.

Kudistos Megistos · « **Reply #6 on:** 2010-12-02 00:04:23 »

Quote from: NFITC1 on 2010-12-01 05:35:35

Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-11-30 22:38:17
countries that no-one cares about (such as the UK),

...because they only think of themselves and their foreign policy is "look the other way/don't get involved". Sometimes I think that might be a good thing.

It's not because of that. It's because the only countries able to cause serious problems for the rest of the world on their own are the US and countries controlled by crazy people.

Places like the UK, France and Germany may be powerful, but they're not powerful enough to project their power with such ease that they can be guaranteed to avoid losing as long as they have enough support. Only the US can do that. As a result, no-one really cares about what they get up to. They'll never harm anyone on their own.

Countries run by crazy people may not be as powerful as the big European democracies, but they don't have to worry about public opinion when they declare war, meaning they can do all sorts of crazy things that democracies can't do.

Quote from: NFITC1 on 2010-12-01 05:35:35

Really though, I think it's unrealistic of most nations to NOT suspect nations they're dealing with. China certainly has reason to be suspect of N.Korea and vice versa. I'd also probably say "the truth hurts, live with it" and leave it like that. Unfortunately most cultures that focus more on personal presentation rarely deal with problems they have and would probably consider what happened an act of war.

I've always thought that cultural practice is extremely childish...

And it looks like China is actually really pissed of with NK. In fact, it looks like they want Korea to be reunited, with the capital in Seoul.

Masa-Buster · « **Reply #7 on:** 2010-12-02 02:46:50 »

I kinda in a way, really like Wikileeks. And I heard the US Government was trying to take the site down because it was a terrorist group or something like that? And they're trying to get whoever hosts the site also known as a terrorist? That's what I've heard anyway, I think if anyone here should be known as a "Terrorist", it should be the people who actually posted the documents.

Though I'm 100% for government secrets to be out, let the public know what our government has been getting itself into, though obviously somethings MUST be kept classified though, but I'd like governments to be more...revealing, instead of really Secretive.

pyrozen · « **Reply #8 on:** 2010-12-02 03:07:05 »

Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-12-02 00:04:23

It's because the only countries able to cause serious problems for the rest of the world on their own are the US and countries controlled by crazy people.

It's because the only government able to cause serious problems for the rest of the world on their own are the US and countries controlled by crazy people.

edited for accuracy. Most Americans are fed up with a lot of our policies as well. I try to vote them out.... but we end up with the same thing AGAIN. sadly, American politics seeks to maintain the status quo at this point, whilst allowing hyper-greedy capitalists to pillage our businesses and bank accounts. They do all of this while claiming to be the opposite as well.

Just wanted to clear that up, not all Americans are ignorant retards incapable of independent thought. But a whole lot of them are.

lee

Opine · « **Reply #9 on:** 2010-12-02 17:25:33 »

Quote from: Masa-Buster on 2010-12-02 02:46:50

I kinda in a way, really like Wikileeks. And I heard the US Government was trying to take the site down because it was a terrorist group or something like that? And they're trying to get whoever hosts the site also known as a terrorist? That's what I've heard anyway, I think if anyone here should be known as a "Terrorist", it should be the people who actually posted the documents.

Though I'm 100% for government secrets to be out, let the public know what our government has been getting itself into, though obviously somethings MUST be kept classified though, but I'd like governments to be more...revealing, instead of really Secretive.

They are trying to get him on espionage. But they can't really do that, without charging the newspapers that ran his stories (I don't think).
Personally, I'm all for this. This guy's kind of a hero, IMO. I've seen some of his videos from before the wikileaks, too. The stuff he shows us pretty... Blunt. I think it's important to see what really goes on, not just what the govt would like to tell us.

Kudistos Megistos · « **Reply #10 on:** 2010-12-02 18:55:23 »

Quote from: pyrozen on 2010-12-02 03:07:05

Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-12-02 00:04:23
It's because the only countries able to cause serious problems for the rest of the world on their own are the US and countries controlled by crazy people.

It's because the only government able to cause serious problems for the rest of the world on their own are the US and countries controlled by crazy people.

edited for accuracy.

No, that was edited for pedantry. Misinformed pedantry, as well. When one talks about the actions of a country, one is usually understood to mean the actions of its leaders and those under their command. I doubt anyone thinks the whole of a country's population is behind government actions, unless there is a positive reason for believing that the government and that particular policy is overwhelmingly and enthusiastically supported by said population.

Quote from: Opine on 2010-12-02 17:25:33

They are trying to get him on espionage.

I thought that they were trying to get him for rape.

Didn't Mugabe do that to one of his political opponents?

Actually, there's a thought; do the cables say anything about Zimbabwe?

xLostWingx · « **Reply #11 on:** 2010-12-02 19:54:18 »

Without expressing an opinion, I think that the guy who leaked the info can in fact be charged BECAUSE he swore an oath or some condition of his position makes it illegal for him to give away any secret information. The wikileaks guy, or anyone else who makes that info available to see just made the info available for people to see once he got ahold of it. Now I am sure that there are loopholes or even real laws that they could charge wikileaks dude with breaking, especially if the info was about upcoming missions, undercover agents, and other more "Treasony" things he would definetly be charged and convicted. But as long as it is about 70 something year old men crossing the mountains on a mule or operations that have come and gone I don't see much happening (of course if he did get his hands on more critical info it remains to be seen if he would post it online). If I am just wandering around in the dark on this one, please provide some insight.

What do I think about it...I really don't know. Do I want the government keeping secrets from me? Not really, but its impossible to have it any other way. Do I want this dude compromising human lives? No way. I don't think anything so far has been too critical (but I haven't scoured every single document that is on wikileaks), but that doesn't say anything about what shows up there in the future. So I guess I don't know what to think about this.

Opine · « **Reply #12 on:** 2010-12-02 21:01:45 »

Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-12-02 18:55:23

I thought that they were trying to get him for rape.

The rape charges were brought up in Sweden, I think. The US was shooting for espionage, but that looks like it isn’t going to work out for them.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Very+difficult+prosecute+WikiLeaks+chief/3915956/story.html

Also, of other interest (though unrelated)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11902489

Cupcake · « **Reply #13 on:** 2010-12-07 22:13:43 »

Julian Assange was arrested in London today... Shit's about to get fun. Apparently a 1.2 GB encrypted "Insurance" file has also been released. The key to which will only be sent out if Wikileaks gets shut down. It's been described as a "thermonuclear device"... I'm kinda interested in what is in this file, but at the same time, I don't wanna find out, I have a feeling that bad things will happen if the key gets released

Masa-Buster · « **Reply #14 on:** 2010-12-07 22:24:17 »

Yeah I heard about that. Guess he said if anything happens to him he'll release a "Poison Pill" AKA a #$%! load of Documents that would totally &*~! up everyone. This dude's starting to get kinda scary o.o Have a feeling some more stuff is gonna go down soon.

Opine · « **Reply #15 on:** 2010-12-08 00:48:56 »

I certainly hope nothing happens to him.

But even if it does, there are plenty of other people working on wikileaks. The governments might be able to "send a message", but they won't really be able to stop anything by getting rid of him.

Bosola · « **Reply #16 on:** 2010-12-08 10:30:22 »

I would assume he has a 'Strangelove' device, which sends the key to various IPs in the case it doesn't get a 'phone from home'. He'd probably do this through various assistants who couldn't themselves send it without the pseudorandom 'passwords' he provides. All he need do is keep the assistants apart and make sure there's enough of them to prevent any guessing the algorithm.

RPGillespie · « **Reply #17 on:** 2010-12-08 16:33:32 »

I have only a few problems with wikileaks. I think that the idea behind it is good, however I think a few of wikileaks's practices should change. Firstly, it seems as though wikileaks has a bias towards publishing US-related material. Other countries acted shocked when it was revealed that the leaked cables "address negative perceptions of various world leaders, repeated calls for US attack on Iran, and requests for US diplomats to spy on other countries' officials," but chances are they are doing the same sorts of things; they just haven't been burned by wikileaks yet. I would like to see more leaks on other countries such as China and Russia.

Also, I think there is a line that ought not be crossed. There are things that should and should not be leaked:
-Documents, blueprints, and engineering charts on how to make nuclear weapons should not be leaked.
-How the government is spending tax money should be leaked.

Kudistos Megistos · « **Reply #18 on:** 2010-12-08 18:29:20 »

Why do you assume wikileaks has a bias towards US material? Don't you think it's far more likely that they simply get more US-related material sent to them than, say, Chinese or Russian material? They can only publish what gets leaked to them. It's an English language site with a mostly Western userbase. Of course they're going to get more American stuff.

destroyedweapon · « **Reply #19 on:** 2010-12-08 19:19:20 »

Countrys are lies for the masses, all the world is ruled by 5 people and im one of them.

Opine · « **Reply #20 on:** 2010-12-08 20:38:42 »

For reals?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/12/2010128133639866230.html

Kudistos Megistos · « **Reply #21 on:** 2010-12-08 21:17:13 »

Quote from: Opine on 2010-12-08 20:38:42

For reals?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/12/2010128133639866230.html

For real.

It's all over /b/ right now.