Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]  (Read 3008297 times)

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #650 on: 2014-11-12 23:05:32 »
Sorry to chip in after you said this was all for Luksy, but I had a gander at those questions and the first one does have (very flimsy) context within the original game that might help. Basically, Shinra are actually spinning the accident as having no casualties because of their 'quick response'; this dialogue comes from the TV in the Turbo Ether house of the slums:

“This just in. An accident today…”
{NEW PAGE}
“…the worst in the history of the metropolis.
   But thanks to the quick response
   by those in charge,
   there were no civilian casualties.

{NEW PAGE}
“The cause of the accident is still unclear at
   this time{, }however{, }according to some
   sources it is believed to have something to
   do with the terrorist
   group{, }AVALANCHE.”

President Shinra mentions this 'plan' in the scene just before the sewers, when he says this to himself:

President Shinra
“We'll destroy Sector 7
   and report that AVALANCHE did it.
   Then we'll send in the rescue
   operation care of Shinra{, }Inc….

   Heh{, }heh{, }heh…this is perfect.”

So the context for Heidegger saying 'after all, we're the ones who saved Sector 7 from AVALANCHE' is that he's alluding to Shinra's propaganda spin that they saved everybody from the dropping plate. His original line implies they saved the actual sector though, rather than just the people.

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #651 on: 2014-11-12 23:10:42 »
Those dialogues are also wrong... since they are from the original game and translated wrong.

However, the casualties report is still accurate (even though the flow is crap there).  So yeah, basically, they are saying there were no casualties.

Quote
“Continuing our coverage
  of today's events…”{NEW}
“In spite of the worst incident
  in Midgar's history,no civilian
  casualties have been reported.”{NEW}
“Shin-Ra's city management [I am not sure this line works, but that's for Covarr]
  are being praised for their
  quick response.”{NEW}
“The cause of the incident is
  still unknown.”{NEW}
“However,we are getting reports
  that a statement has been
  released by the terrorist group,
  Avalanche,claiming responsibility.”

Quote
“We'll destroy District 7.
  The reports will blame Avalanche,
  and the relief operation will be
  handled by the Shin-Ra Company.
  Heh,heh,heh… It's perfect.”

I'll remove that question.  Even though it's a very silly piece of the plot... there is no way to cover up something that big, and not even the Nazis would have tried to.  They'd have just blamed rebel factions for mass death and left it at that. There's no way to claim everyone survived that.

« Last Edit: 2014-11-12 23:18:52 by DLPB »

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #652 on: 2014-11-13 11:02:25 »
I think a more newsy kind of lingo there may be

"In spite of the worst incident in Midgar's history, there are believed to be no civilian casualties."

What do you think?

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #653 on: 2014-11-13 12:28:00 »
I think a more newsy kind of lingo there may be

"In spite of the worst incident in Midgar's history, there are believed to be no civilian casualties."

What do you think?

Quote from: J R R Tolkien
That this is an 'imaginary' world does not give him any right to remodel it according to his fancy

 I would prefer your version, but you have drawn your guide line.  :P

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #654 on: 2014-11-13 13:37:06 »
What I have just done is certainly not remodelling it...  It contains the same facts and is simply a matter of localization. :)

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #655 on: 2014-11-13 14:12:01 »
The way it is as a hard fact shows that Shin-Ra is an obvious liar, but the people who believe these lies are even worse. How silly must be a society which believes or even tolerate these obvious lies only to live an easy life...*
If you change it to a possibility rather than a fact you will reduce the effect by giving Shin-Ra the excuse that they never confirmed that there are absolutely no civilian victims. So I think it is intended as it is.

*look at the happening on 9/11 against any physical model there are still people who do believe that the towers were crushed down only by planes.

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #656 on: 2014-11-13 16:04:57 »
This isn't  a political thread, but the reason people believe 2 planes brought the towers down is because they did.  Not only is it totally plausible, but all available facts support it. It's actually completely crazy to think otherwise.  A fully loaded jet airliner travelling at that speed, impacting a  tower designed in that way (with a VERY weak glass-aluminimum shell, for starters), combined with the office combustibles, WILL destroy a tower in the manner it DID.  It isn't up for debate or discussion.  That's what history will record forever, and it's what the vast number of scientists and structural engineers conclude.

On the rest:

Real life propaganda depends on being able to hide the truth.  That's the other reason why 9/11 is not a conspiracy.  It would be impossible to hide the truth.  In that same way, Shin-Ra would not be able to hide the truth that a ton of people died in D7.  Good propaganda only deals in what it can lie about.  I understand where the writers were going with this, but they didn't think it through.

If you want to discuss this elsewhere, open a thread.  But I doubt I will be contributing to it :P
« Last Edit: 2014-11-13 16:27:42 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #657 on: 2014-11-14 12:51:40 »
I only added this to show others who follow this project that even stupid looking writings are build this way by purpose. It is not up to you to decide if the writers think it through to the end (at last not for this project goal). Make a Directors Cut version of Beacause, because there are a few things which could need a better rewriting. I would highly appreciate it.
As example: if you change this, then why you are against my suggestion to move Jenova's phrase at the start of the battle with her? It would more bind the sentence to Jenova organism and she will say it while the organism is alive and not dead. It wouldn't even mess with the meaning of the sentence. However I accepted your no, because you don't want to alter the way the writers has designed it.
You have used the statement of Tolkien as your mantra for this project and it is more dangerous to change slightly the meaning of a text as heavily changing the text but keep the meaning. So as long you don't want to pull in your own opinion, I would say that you shouldn't change the sentence. Even though it is a small and smart change, for me has it a moderate impact on further interpretations.
That is what I think of it. Now some other opinion please.  ;)

Quote
If you want to discuss this elsewhere, open a thread.  But I doubt I will be contributing to it :P
Curse you, I really wasted time for this shit. :P
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=15743.0

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #658 on: 2014-11-14 14:00:22 »
I haven't changed anything. :P  I am not sure where you are getting that I have?

Nothing I have done above is altering the known facts of the game, or stepping outside of the boundaries of what I laid down (or outside of what a good localizer does).

I am simply criticizing the writing of FF7 in this part of the game, because it sucks and is grossly unrealistic.  But at no point have I changed the game.  The above dialogue is a matter of taste and only taste.  If it sounds like a news report and states the same facts, it's fine.

Tolkien is talking about changing facts (like his established character names).
« Last Edit: 2014-11-14 18:16:20 by DLPB »

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #659 on: 2014-11-15 18:23:14 »
Facepalm

I have to say sorry. The wrong sentence has burned in to my mind (the old one:  But thanks to the quick response by those in charge, there were no civilian casualties.).
And I thought that you changed this. :-[

So yes this looks better:
Quote
"In spite of the worst incident
 in Midgar's history, there are believed
 to be no civilian casualties."

as this:
Quote
In spite of the worst incident
  in Midgar's history,no civilian
  casualties have been reported.

However for for the sake of completeness. The wrong translated sentence would work as a hyperbole and the citizen of the planet would be have to blame for believing it.
The correct translation shows only that Shin-Ra is a clever acting company which speaks about flowers but doesn't promise any of them. So the people are only misguided.
Because of the two different interpretations I had put in my concerns.
So sorry for the misunderstanding. I shouldn't write when I have actually no time for posting.  :-X

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #660 on: 2014-11-19 21:20:26 »
Spoke to Luksy, he's just trying to get some motivation together.

In meantime, I fixed the opening bombing mission.  The door now opens for Jessie after you run down the stairs.  Also fixed this:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Raid_on_Midgar_Glitch

I had a look at making the cannon graphic disappear from world map model before you reach it at the correct point in story, but it disappears based on game-moment, and without a world map editor, I can't fix that.

Fixes so far
Code: [Select]
General Flevel Fixes

ancnt1 / ancnt4: Corrects Vincent's animation

blin67_2:  Fix Tifa infinite Love Points bug

canon_2: Fixed story skipping glitch

chrin_1b: Aerith missing dialogue in dream sequence reinstated
              Cloud/Aerith no longer turn to face Reno by accident
              Other changes to fix Cloud/Aerith interaction with Reno

chrin_2: Fix issue that led to removal of Gongaga cutscene

cosin1_1: Fix Barret infinite Love Points bug

del1: Allows player to talk to NPC on boat

elminn_1: Inserts missing Barret dialogue if not in party when receiving PHS

elmin4_2: Fixes old man's dialogue so that all three are shown

fr_e: Possibly to correct animation speed during FMV

fship_4: Fixes menu access bug after talking with Yuffie

gongaga: Tifa/Aerith Love Points check is now >40 and not >120

goson: Fixes the mayor's dialogue to show up correctly

hyou8_2: Fixes infinite Elixir issue

jtemplb: Aerith/Cloud now correctly exclaim at the same time

las2_1: Removes stupid "secret cow" added with 2012 version

lastmap: FMV is now full length and not chopped

min51_1: Some TV dialogues originally had little chance of being seen

mtnvl3: Second soldier's dialogue is now accessible

nmkin_2: Door will now open and shut for Jessie

psdun_2: Enables Aerith's dialogue when skipping Kalm

trnad_2: Missing Cloud scene reinstated

trnad_4: MP Turbo materia is now blue instead of yellow

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weapon Flevel Fixes

games_2: Odds of a complete win now around 400-1 and not 3709-1
               Rounds are 5 as opposed to 10
               If you ever did manage the 3709-1 feat originally, you were awarded a bug

kuro_4: Enables original clock minigame difficulty

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beacause Flevel Fixes
Beacause uses all of the general fixes by default, but adds these also:

frcyo: Option vars fixed

mtcrl_9: Rope bridge scene in Corel reinstated
« Last Edit: 2014-11-19 22:43:23 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #661 on: 2014-11-19 23:46:41 »
One last for now:

sichi: When proceeding north, you are not returned to world map


This drove me mad the first time I played the game.  After seeing the Midgardsormr hoisted aloft a pike, you can proceed north but you are then still returned to the world map.  I ended up going back along the marsh wondering where the hell I was meant to go.  So now, when proceeding north, you are placed in the cave.

it also doesn't help that they completely buggered this scene up by not removing the Midgardsormr from the world map after this point... so you see it dead, go back out, and hey presto, Sephiroth hasn't killed it after all.

And if you kill it before this point, the cutscene still occurs. 

More than that, you get past the Midgardsormr only to find that it's dead by Sephiroth's hand.
Basically, you have to separate your own battles and the world map model from the story... And the story is that Sephiroth killed it.

If I was a lamo fanboy I could perhaps make my own shit up and state that there was a Mrs Midgardsormr.
« Last Edit: 2014-11-19 23:53:11 by DLPB »

obesebear

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #662 on: 2014-11-20 00:41:30 »
If I was a lamo fanboy I could perhaps make my own shit up and state that there was a Mrs Midgardsormr.
This is what I always assumed.  A new player will no doubt try to run through the swamp only to get annihilated.  Once you finally do get across using a chocobo (or awesome timing), seeing that Sephiroth completely destroyed one helps emphasize his power.

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #663 on: 2014-11-20 00:48:49 »
That's true, but after that scene it's a bit silly to have it still swimming about on the world map.  It's heavily implied at the farm that there is one Midhardsormr.  So really, once dead, that should be it.  I think it was also a mistake to make it beatable.

With Poison you can defeat it quite easily.

KnifeTheSky77

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #664 on: 2014-11-20 03:51:42 »
You could just as easily theorize that the Midhardsormr was asexual and the one you end up fighting in the swamp was some sort of self-incestuous offspring reincarnate of the former.

The Phoenix is fairly prevalent in FF culture, here is a snippet from wikipedia...

Code: [Select]
In Greek mythology, a phoenix or phenix (Greek: φοῖνιξ phoinix) is a long-lived bird that is cyclically regenerated or reborn. Associated with the sun,
a phoenix obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor.

If a bird can do it then why cant a snake? Isnt there a line about it smelling like it had been burned? I could be wrong, havent actually played the game in a while
« Last Edit: 2014-11-20 04:50:37 by KnifeTheSky77 »

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #665 on: 2014-11-20 08:11:43 »
Well, the snake can't because in mythology, there was only one midgardsormr... and in FF7 you are told there is one. ;)  A phoenix is a completely different issue..
« Last Edit: 2014-11-20 12:30:30 by DLPB »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #666 on: 2014-11-20 13:16:33 »
Perhaps it's there after the cutscene because it's the only battle to learn the Enemy Skill Beta? Otherwise, if you'd miss out before Sephiroth kills it, you'd miss out completely.

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #667 on: 2014-11-20 14:01:03 »
Perhaps it's there after the cutscene because it's the only battle to learn the Enemy Skill Beta? Otherwise, if you'd miss out before Sephiroth kills it, you'd miss out completely.

I don't think the dev team really thought as deeply about it as we're doing here.  I think to them it's a matter of separating story from gameplay.  Or it could be that they were just rushed, or that they simply didn't have time to make it all work.  I think likely scenario is they just left it despite the obvious plot issue.  Either way, it's not really a big deal, but I can fix it up with my Weapon mod. 


Hellbringer616

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #668 on: 2014-11-20 17:37:13 »
My question is, if that's the only enemy you can learn Beta from, Then what happens after you master your E.Skill on Red XIII? if you remove it from the game after Sephiroth kills it, then how can you master other materia?

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #669 on: 2014-11-20 17:39:13 »
I'd simply move beta to  another enemy besides Sormr :)  if I were to do that for Weapon.  Although I also like the idea of you being able to kill it (much later in the game)... so I could just as well remove the cutscene.  I always thought the idea of Seph placing it onto a pike was ludicrous.
« Last Edit: 2014-11-20 17:40:46 by DLPB »

EQ2Alyza

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #670 on: 2014-11-20 19:48:10 »
I would rather see Beta become a more powerful ES and get rid of the Sephiroth cutscene. You could then possibly edit the snake to be a more powerful enemy so that the Chocobo is the only way to cross. This will keep the snake in the game, and you gain something out of it with Beta via a side quest later in the game.

knightsoftheround

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #671 on: 2014-11-20 20:42:28 »
I don't like the idea of Weapon changing the plot though.  I don't want the storyline/characterizations to take a hit just because I want a tougher game... although I suppose if you could tick an option on or off in that regard while still installing Weapon I'd be fine with it. Just my two cents on the whole thing.

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #672 on: 2014-11-20 21:03:04 »
Mostly it would keep the game the same, but certain things like that, I don't think there's much alternative.  It's a rare exception.

Sora123masta

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #673 on: 2014-11-20 23:30:41 »
It needs more WUMBO. Wumbology. :"D

Kaldarasha

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Re: [FF7PC-98] Multiple mods - The Reunion (R01)
« Reply #674 on: 2014-11-21 09:27:54 »
Let's make an alternative solution. Instead of fighting against a grown up midgardsormr, the group could fight against a baby version of it (with the default strange it has now). Sephiroth (or to be more precisely Jenova) will kill a grown up parent snake. Maybe it is good to add to the encounters a rarely appearance of grown up snakes, which will kill characters beyond a certain Lvl and will kick out of the battle the last remaining character. Only to show that the midgardsormrs are tough enemies, which would underline the power of Sephiroth.

Well, the snake can't because in mythology, there was only one midgardsormr... and in FF7 you are told there is one. ;)  A phoenix is a completely different issue..

Well with Sephiroth, who represents the midgardsormr (Cloud=Fenrir, Vincent=Hel, Hojo=Loki) and the one in the swamp we have two in the game. I would explain the snake(s) in the swamp as one of Hojo's researches about the Jenova cells.

For the weapon mod:
I think you should take a look on what you can do with 7th Heaven. It is absolutely possible to swap the scene.bin and the kernels after a certain point in the story, which could be used to rebalanced earlier parts in the later game. As explanation can be used a reaction of the monsters to Meteor and/or Sephiroth influences on them to kill more living beings to fill the lifestream with souls.
I would say that Sega Chief is a good partner for this project, of course more would be better. But you really shouldn't try to fix the easy battle system alone. Not that I think you can't do it by yourself, but I don't want to wait another 3 years for it. :P
Well I hope when you start on Weapon NFITC1 will be ready to finally show us his better things.
« Last Edit: 2014-11-21 09:30:25 by Kaldarasha »