Author Topic: I guess that's it, guys  (Read 10608 times)

Mayo Master

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I guess that's it, guys
« on: 2015-06-22 17:57:21 »
Hi folks,

I just wanted to "confirm" that, as far as I'm concerned, the announcement of the FF7 remake pretty much cans the Team Avalanche project. Personally, I see very little point in continuing this endeavor. I'm not motivated to strive for a graphical overhaul with my very limited means (in hardware, software, talent, and time) as Square can deploy a team of very talented people for that, with all the resources to go with it. It's in their hands now, all we can do is hope for the best.
As for me, well it was a fun ride  :)  I certainly learned a ton of things in the process, so I'd never consider the huge amount of time I've spent on this as a waste. Maybe I should get started on a new project of my own then.
Thanks to all the people who provided support and feedback in all this time  :)
Cheers,

- Mayo

PS Doesn't mean that I'll be leaving qhimm forums though :P

Sonikero

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #1 on: 2015-06-22 18:53:40 »
Square will make other type of remake. They will make a lot of changes and whatever more...

The fans want this remake because is much faithful.

I have seen this proyect today and i hope that you guys will continues with the proyect. Seriously.

I hope so :)

Tom

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #2 on: 2015-06-22 21:14:05 »
I agree with Sonikero, the SE remake is a true remake, ground up.  TA is all about HighRes fields in the original game.

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #3 on: 2015-06-22 21:49:37 »
In my opinion, if all you wish to have is a HD upscale of the original fields, you can find it already thanks to the project of yarLson. It's a very good project which has the distinct advantage of being complete (unlike the 2-3% of the project I've made in 2 years of hard work). Omzy also completed something very similar, just with other image filtering techniques, so you're welcome to check that too. Personally, I have not been interested in getting through the process of 3d modelling and rendering to yield an exact replica of what yarLson accomplished.

Instead, in my 3d modelling work, I wanted to bring out more details, and use mode advanced modelling and shading techniques to provide a more pleasing and coherent rendition of the fields, while trying to be faithful to the spirit of the original. I wasn't shying away from reinventing some portions of it. This is probably the same path that Square is going to take for the remake, except they have much better resources and much better artists to do it. That doesn't leave me with much (if any) motivation to go on.

Scrat

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #4 on: 2015-06-22 22:00:53 »
Well, I for one have learnt a lot, mainly from you Mayo and I certainly do not consider the project a waste of time just because square are doing it instead.

I have to admit I agree though there isn't much point carrying on, at least until we see how square do it, maybe after square's release there may still be a place for this mod.

I will enjoy playing through your sector 5 when it is added to 7th heaven and I would have liked to have seen your Nibelheim. I may still try to complete my scene, but only for two reasons. Firstly the experience of completing a scene and secondly so that I can say I added something to this community before square took up the challenge.

Thanks for your great contributions and your mentoring, its been invaluable. To be clear I am also not leaving qhimm. I will find other ways to be useful.

EQ2Alyza

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #5 on: 2015-06-22 22:32:59 »
Sigh, I didn't want to see this stop. I don't believe the remake (which is initially just PS4) will be anything like what we're doing here. Seeing the old rendered 2D scenes done by your talent is what I consider the real remake, but that's just me.

I understand the massive scope of this project, but I always felt all scenes up until the party leaves Midgar could have been achievable and released as a demo showcase for what we'd consider a FF7 remake. It would have produced good advertising for Qhimm and Team Avalanche, and perhaps brought in the outside talent needed to continue the scenes past Midgar. Would something like that not even be considered? I hope it would  :|

Tom

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #6 on: 2015-06-22 23:02:24 »
Plus in Q-Gears 3D fields ARE nice :)
You don't have to mess with layers or z index, just feed it to OGRE and your done

EDIT: Throw in some pre baked lighting, textures and it looks just like a prerendered background

Ragna

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #7 on: 2015-06-22 23:17:32 »
And this is what I didn't want to hear (read) from you...
Everyone else explained perfectly the same I feel.

 :'(

I understand the massive scope of this project, but I always felt all scenes up until the party leaves Midgar could have been achievable and released as a demo showcase for what we'd consider a FF7 remake.
I hoped for this too.

Hah! Who knows? Maybe you will return to the project after the remake is out? :P
Or maybe they perfectly capture the original game's spirit and surprises us all with a "good enough" remake? (Or in emulation words: like what a good high-level emulation could do compared to the effort needed on a low-level one?)

You've done some amazing work anyway, and that's what counts after all. :)

obesebear

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #8 on: 2015-06-23 02:37:35 »
I've got a kind of similar project going on where we're trying to update the graphics, but we're focusing on models instead of backgrounds.   We've been going strong for a little over 6 years now, and we also had the discussion of stopping due to the remake.  However, I doubt the remake will take the place of the original.  The limitations of the media in 1997 allow you to turn the characters and scenes into whatever your imaginations see them as (kind of like reading a book).  The remake will no doubt use voice acting.  The models will no doubt animate infinitely better.  The backgrounds and events will be much more detailed, and a lot of the imagination we had to use playing the original will be lost.

But see, that's where projects like yours and mine shine.  We still get to play the old game, but with a much needed face lift. :)

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #9 on: 2015-06-23 04:29:07 »
Before the announcement was made, here was the best case scenario I had been hoping for:
With the small release of my sector 5 slums scenes, try to get on some "advertising campaign" in order to have people joining the project. As Kaldarasha and I sorely found out last year, merely advertising for TA can turn out to be a very difficult exercise (actually, back then most of the people outside qhimm had a very negative prejudice about it, with reaction ranging from "leave that game in the past where it belongs" to "nobody's ever going to join a project which is doomed to meet a Cease & Desist by Square at one point or another"). Anyway, the goal would have been to try to form a team of at least 10 productive people, shift up the gears and have a cruise speed of 10 scenes per year per person, and complete that in 5-6 years. That schedule would be pushing hard on everyone, and going at it with a professional attitude where deadlines would have to be set and met. And that would have been the very best case scenario.
I could see myself being committed to something like that if it were the only possibility to have some kind of "remake", but now its purpose would just be (at best) an attempt from an amateur to leave a mark which Square would have to surpass. Let's face it, it's not a kind of purpose which would have me motivated for working hard during the next 5 years, and I don't see that kind of scope motivating anyone else for that much time either. I'm not preventing anyone from working on it (hell, I can still be of advice on the modelling side), but personally I see very little point in it.

Of course, the remake will be different from what we do here. But why "being different" would necessary be "worse"? After all, the trilogy of the Lord of the Rings movies was an adaptation of the books, and I believe it was an adaptation for the better. In all my time working on TA, I've been often thinking "how can I make that scene actually better than what it was, and not just a an upscaled replica?". I would hope that idea of improvement would animate the devs. I believe that plenty of aspects can be made differently from the original, and better. For example, what if you could roam around the entire city of Midgar like in an open world game, where you could visit Sectors in the slums or on the Plate, whereas the original game didn't get you to see any of that? What if the game started around the times where Tifa finds Cloud on the train platform, and then you spend some time free roaming in Midgar doing small jobs before joining Avalanche for the Bombing mission? What if you'd carry out the first Bombing mission with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie as additional party members? All this would certainly be different from the original game, but wouldn't these changes actually be cooler? It's in the hands of Square to make things like that happen (or not), and in any case such changes are way beyond our capabilities.
 
I believe that many fans feel a sense of ownership over the game. The idea of being able to mod the game probably strengthened that feeling. It seems many are upset by the announcement of Square because it would deprive them of that sense of ownership, because a different version would not conform their own vision.  But the game has to change, in my opinion. A lot of elements in the original game were acceptable back then, but they would feel lousy now (examples: the split/merge of the characters for dialogs, random battles, how Cait Sith joins the party, the hard baked chibis in FMVs, etc.) - wouldn't we better off without these? I personally see no sense in sticking to every aspect of the original game (as a seasoned RPG player, I've always found it somewhat depressing that many players consider turn-based system - a transposition of old D&Ds mechanics - as the alpha and omega of gameplay). However, everybody can have a different opinion of what should be kept, what should be edited, what should be removed, what could be added (hell, maybe I should make a huge poll about it :P ). I think people fear having these decisions out of their hands. Personally, I do not have the pretension that what I can do would surpass what Square can do on the artistic side, so I prefer to just let go.

So, what now? I guess all we can hope for is that Square decides to interact with its fan as the development is underway, and look for constructive advice us fans would make.

LeonhartGR

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #10 on: 2015-06-23 05:10:09 »
It would be nice to have this re-mastered edition by the qhimm forums option Mayo! Keep it up!

P.S.: Sonik, is that you? From twitch/YT? :P

drdaylight

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #11 on: 2015-06-23 05:50:07 »
I have seen your work a few weeks ago which is the reason I actually started playing FF7 / 8 (once) again. Sad to see you're not motivated to continue those types of projects anymore. However, it's understandable from your point of view.

The way I see it, the remake most likely will not be turn based and the story will probably be altered in some form or fashion. I would've liked to have seen more of your artistic style / talent in the game. Even after the remake is released, the old and new will have two completely different feels to it. With your artwork involved, it would've gave the game a better feel without ruining any of the original feel to it.

I'm tired. Probably didn't make too much sense. Oh well. Off to bed. Thanks for contributing your art into this game along with years of dedication!  8-)

Tom

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #12 on: 2015-06-23 10:53:13 »
I always wanted to be able to roam around Midgar and see the other sectors that aren't available in the game :(
I have been making for the past 9 months a 3D model of Midgar for Q-Gears where you can roam the streets of Midgar but the amount of modeling that has to be done is enormous and I'm still only making the bridges connecting the sectors together.

What Mayo Master suggested is nice, the ability to have the other Team Avalance members as playable characters or starting off when Cloud wakes up from mako poisoning in the train station are great ideas and it would be nice to see SE implement them.

However I think that the new game won't replace the old as an "upgrade" but will be a new version with a bunch of cool new additions and gameplay changes.  :D
Both versions will have their pros and cons

cmh175

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #13 on: 2015-06-23 13:31:24 »
I have to agree with Mayo. I'm psyched Square is doing an official HD remake, but also feel a bit of loss as it voids the need to heavily mod the original game. If the remake absolutely tanks than mod ideas can definitely be revisited, and hell with any luck the remake will be moddable too and give us a lot more to work with (it's only a timed PS4 exclusive, it'll see a pc release for sure). Smaller projects are certainly worthwhile, but the scope of this particular one is massive, and currently only led by a handful of artists. It's pretty understandable that there may not be a lot of motivation to carry on with this.

I started working on new HD character and npc models, as well as a few bosses. Starting out it looked pretty reasonable, until you realize there's about a 100+ models, as well as field objects (keys, boxes, treasure chests, save points) not to mention the monster enemy models alone that don't have a field or world counter part. It's easy to forget the scale of this game lol. In a sense I'm rather glad Square is doing this for us lol. I may finish those that are nearly done, but I'm interested in getting into my own designs now too.

Sonikero

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #14 on: 2015-06-24 01:23:01 »
It would be nice to have this re-mastered edition by the qhimm forums option Mayo! Keep it up!

P.S.: Sonik, is that you? From twitch/YT? :P

I dont think so xD

SpooX

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #15 on: 2015-06-24 21:42:42 »
Unfortunately Mayo, you worded the exact feeling I had since the news of the remake.
Unsure of what to make of it, since SE is very vague about what they will be doing. And looking at the massive scale they've build Midgar in, at least more realistic, it will be different from the original.
This could be either bad or good, only time will tell...

But what to do with project Avalanche?
 :-\

alloy

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #16 on: 2015-06-24 21:59:53 »
Dont let the remake news kill the passion you have for your art. Be it remaking ff7 scenes or whatever else. keep making stuff.

Shard

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #17 on: 2015-06-24 22:31:25 »
I've gotten similar feedback about the voiceover project. We ultimately decided that Squaresoft sucks and our voiceovers will be lightyears ahead of theirs, so we're continuing the project anyway. You should do the same.

Kaldarasha

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #18 on: 2015-06-25 18:40:27 »
I've gotten similar feedback about the voiceover project. We ultimately decided that Squaresoft sucks and our voiceovers will be lightyears ahead of theirs, so we're continuing the project anyway. You should do the same.

That's not the same. If you guys are lucky enough SE will hire some of you to voice the remake. But for Mayo and me is it pointless work because we won't be part of the games development. You see even if SE creates a medicore remake more people will play it because it is official. As example many Steam users do want mods but they are not ready to upgrade the game with an unofficial downpatch for that reason.
I will still do here and there a thing, and mainly I hope that QGears will become a great engine to create our own PSX styled games (I have a really good FF7 prequel in my head which let you see the plot of FF7 in a different light without to destroy the original game). Also I have now only very limited time for two years and the remake lets finally re-enjoy the game, because it has become only a project for me. The work which is needed to overhaul the game with a HD mod is too much. With the current announcement we need 20 high talented people and Aali to fix the light layer issue to have a release right in time before SE release the remake. I can't see that this will happening.
What we can do is to polish up the Background with Alien Skins Blow Up (the results are even better as the one of YarLson) and put a bit more handwork on them but that's all what should be done.

After all FF7 is only a game among other games so we shouldn't spend all of our life blood on it.

Mayo Master

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #19 on: 2015-06-25 18:44:41 »
As far as the art in concerned, I'm convinced that I don't have the tenth of the talent of any artist from Square, and I certainly don not have the same resources either. I believe I'd be delusional to think otherwise. I think Yusuke Naora doesn't need my input to do his job. Personally, even in the productions from Square that I didn't like (FF XIII series, mostly), I remained in awe of the quality of the visuals.

With the news of the remake, if I still have passion for the art, I don't find much point of spending my life blood (as Kaldarasha aptly said) on something which they can very easily surpass. As far as art and creativity go, it would make much more sense to me to spend time on making something of my own, on an different project.

Sega Chief

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #20 on: 2015-06-25 21:19:01 »
I would have encouraged you guys to keep up with making new backgrounds from scratch, because I always felt that they were the weakest part of the FF7 port and can only be properly solved with an actual re-render, but if you feel it's time to spend your energy on other projects then don't feel tied down; go for it!

Tom

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #21 on: 2015-06-25 21:45:11 »
That's not the same. If you guys are lucky enough SE will hire some of you to voice the remake. But for Mayo and me is it pointless work because we won't be part of the games development. You see even if SE creates a medicore remake more people will play it because it is official. As example many Steam users do want mods but they are not ready to upgrade the game with an unofficial downpatch for that reason.
I will still do here and there a thing, and mainly I hope that QGears will become a great engine to create our own PSX styled games (I have a really good FF7 prequel in my head which let you see the plot of FF7 in a different light without to destroy the original game). Also I have now only very limited time for two years and the remake lets finally re-enjoy the game, because it has become only a project for me. The work which is needed to overhaul the game with a HD mod is too much. With the current announcement we need 20 high talented people and Aali to fix the light layer issue to have a release right in time before SE release the remake. I can't see that this will happening.
What we can do is to polish up the Background with Alien Skins Blow Up (the results are even better as the one of YarLson) and put a bit more handwork on them but that's all what should be done.

After all FF7 is only a game among other games so we shouldn't spend all of our life blood on it.

Q-Gears is complete enough for you to write a story of your own, you can even design you own brand new fields to explore places that weren't in the orininal game.  Also if you want to help with the project you are more than welcome.  Currently I am working on the "Finishing Touch" mod/project for Q-Gears that fixes little bugs and field script errors in the game and makes it look much more polished.

Salk

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #22 on: 2015-06-26 03:58:11 »
I see Square Enix show too often lack of talent to trust anything they are working on.

I trust your (Mayo Master), SpooX and other Qhimm residents' talents much more, to say the truth.

But I understand your decision and we can not only hope it won't be a disappointment.

yarLson

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #23 on: 2015-06-26 04:20:07 »
As far as the art in concerned, I'm convinced that I don't have the tenth of the talent of any artist from Square, and I certainly don not have the same resources either. I believe I'd be delusional to think otherwise. I think Yusuke Naora doesn't need my input to do his job. Personally, even in the productions from Square that I didn't like (FF XIII series, mostly), I remained in awe of the quality of the visuals.

With the news of the remake, if I still have passion for the art, I don't find much point of spending my life blood (as Kaldarasha aptly said) on something which they can very easily surpass. As far as art and creativity go, it would make much more sense to me to spend time on making something of my own, on an different project.

Not to throw this completely off topic but alien skin blow up looks terrible in game. Lol I obsessed over these things for over a year although all I had to work with was my personal opinion. I agree with mayo though.. We have all known that the likelihood of this project teaching a finished state was slim to none.. But people learned here..

No artist wants to spend their entire career in the shadow of other works and we certainly don't want to compete with the skill resource and sheer collective attention that the remake will receive.. It's no artists desire to be overshadowed and largely ignored for their effort.. It's ludicrous to ask anyone to do so.

Now to say that we shouldn't pursue it is not my intent merely that one cannot be blamed or misunderstood for focusing their efforts in more profitable direction, both financially and otherwise.. After all its a waste to gain such a great talent and never developer something all your own.. So it is my deepest hope this project never a dies yet I know at the very least it will be on hiatus for a long long time.

DLPB

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Re: I guess that's it, guys
« Reply #24 on: 2015-06-26 15:40:24 »
Square may well have resources, but they're not going to recreate the original game - they're going to leave a ton of content out and it will not be the same game anyway.  The remake isn't a reason I'd personally have to quit but that's up to each person.

If this remake was sticking to the original and updating as necessary (which it should be doing but is not) then I'd agree this project is redundant.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-26 15:42:12 by DLPB »