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Final Fantasy Forums => General discussion => Topic started by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-14 04:47:22

Title: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-14 04:47:22
Okay, honestly I want to know what people in this forum think about this game. I've seen people love it, and I've seen people hate it. It's basically a linear-rpg. I bought it less than a year ago, played right up to seeing that little blonde chick (was her name Serah or something?) and I stopped there. I sold the game, but later regretted it because of the "hype" around the game. I'm easily suckered into video games even when I know they suck. (ex. I played Duke Nukem Forever demo, hated it, and then recently traded my BRINK for a copy). So yeah, I bought it again, and I got up to the Shiva sisters..... then I never touched it again. How does everybody REALLY feel about this interactive movie?
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-08-14 05:25:38
I loved it. I created a thread about this here (http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=11971.0). My thoughts are in there.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Covarr on 2011-08-14 06:51:47
Short version: Some of us loved it, some of us were meh, DLPB hated it with a fiery passion.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-08-14 09:25:59
You forget to tell him that the intelligent people also hated it
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-08-14 12:32:57
You forget to tell him that the intelligent people also hated it

Give it a rest already. Yes, we know you hated it, you don't need to keep shoving your opinion down out throats.

Honestly, were stupid because we like it? Or because our opinion differs from yours?

It's rather insulting.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-08-14 14:20:09
You forget to tell him that the intelligent people also hated it

Maybe it is just bad taste.  Everyone is welcome to like it but the fact is, it is a subpar effort full to the brim with flaws.

I have nothing against people liking the game (it is possible to like something which is flawed. It is possible to like anything), but I do when they make tired excuses for its flaws or pretend that the game had as much quality and content as 7-10.

One needs only to look at where the user reviews are heading to see the trend is downwards.  People are getting sick of the crap that Enix is firing out.

To sum up:

1.  Literally linear  for most of the game.  No way to go back on yourself.
2. Minigames almost non existent
3. Side quests that there are revolve around more fighting and grinding.
4. 2 AI characters, and auto battle doing most of the work.  No real brains required.  Dumbed down.  This happened because people accepted XII's battle system.
5. Over use of graphics and cutscenes.  Whole game is another failure in balance.
6.  Story is a joke, and even requires you to read a manual for exposition.
7. Traditional towns gone.  NPC relegated to near gone.  Nothing to do to break up the monotony of battles.  This is not a good thing.  This is against JRPG format, and it forces everyone to like it or lump it.  In the past some quests or places or shops could be skipped.

That's what I think about it....  SquareEnix now know that they can get away with doing this.  They learned that X-2. XII and the cash in spin offs of FF7 will sell like hot cakes no matter how bad the game or how flawed.  So... expect more of the same.  Graphics before substance, bloat before quality.

Since the merger, the quality of games has definately gone down in favour of pure greed.  We had X-2, the first sequel and a joke.  We have had FF7 turned into a cash cow with the spin offs.  We had XII where a battle could play for you while you sit there with the controller.  And now this flashy graphic fest XIII.  XIV is a disaster and I don't hold up much hope for XV.   It has all come down to the drive sorely for money rather than creativity since that merger.

And Kitase sums up the problem that he and his buddies have:

Quote
"If you're talking about the main Final Fantasy titles, one of the strong focuses of the series is cutting edge graphics. That's what people enjoy and that's what people associate Final Fantasy with."


"In that sense I would like to assure our users of this top quality artistic visual achievement. To do that we have to stick with high definition consoles."

All he cares about is graphics.

Quote
That's what people enjoy and that's what people associate Final Fantasy with."

Err no it isn't  Mr Kitase.  It is 1 aspect but most people buy FF for the gameplay and for the miniquests and story.  The graphics are not a priority and I wish you and your team would learn that.  Todays graphics will be strawberries tomorrow, and then where does that leave a game which was bsed on graphics?  Hardly anyone will replay XIII in 10 years.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Covarr on 2011-08-14 15:28:31
Anything I did not respond to from your post, it is safe to assume I agree with. The game really does have problems, but I do think you exaggerate some of them.

it is a subpar effort full to the brim with flaws.
I don't think it was a subpar effort. This has been one of Square Enix's most expensive games to date, they poured a ton of time and money into it. Mismanaged, yes, but the effort was there. They simply couldn't pull the results they needed. But it's pretty clear they tried.

2. Minigames almost non existent
This is not a bad thing. Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers was more minigames than main game, which was sad because the combat and exploration aspect was really damn good in that game but it spent the entire time on the backburner. Combine that with the constant half-assed minigame collections that are being released as games now, gamers as a whole are sick and tired of minigames. There is nothing wrong with not including them.

3. Side quests that there are revolve around more fighting and grinding.
As I recall, you absolutely loved this about Final Fantasy X.

4. 2 AI characters, and auto battle doing most of the work.  No real brains required.  Dumbed down.  This happened because people accepted XII's battle system.
Except you still have to decide what auto battle does. Mostly this system makes battles faster and less tedious. For grinding, that means less mashing the X button (FF games have ALWAYS been guilty of mashy grinding), and for bosses it doesn't mean easier so much as it means faster. Either you win quickly or you lose quickly. But unless you have a strategy guide in front of you telling you exactly what paradigms to use at all times, it's not gonna be ridiculously easy.

Although you have a good point, this game largely does seem to expand on XII's flaws, namely linearity and non-interactivity.

5. Over use of graphics and cutscenes.  Whole game is another failure in balance.
There is absolutely no such thing as overuse of graphics. If they'd spent the same amount of time, money, and effort on everything else and less on graphics, the game would be just as flawed, but it'd look like strawberries too. Lack of success in key areas such as gameplay is not caused by good graphics, and in fact graphics programmers are usually not even qualified to be designing things like NPC AI or world scripts. Agree on the cutscenes and lack of balance though, the game plays like a vaguely interactive movie. However, this is a base design flaw, not a fault of having good graphics.

6.  Story is a joke, and even requires you to read a manual for exposition.
Story is quite interesting, IMO. Required history reading is a problem though.

That's what I think about it....  SquareEnix now know that they can get away with doing this.  They learned that X-2. XII and the cash in spin offs of FF7 will sell like hot cakes no matter how bad the game or how flawed.  So... expect more of the same.  Graphics before substance, bloat before quality.

Since the merger, the quality of games has definately gone down in favour of pure greed.  We had X-2, the first sequel and a joke.  We have had FF7 turned into a cash cow with the spin offs.  We had XII where a battle could play for you while you sit there with the controller.  And now this flashy graphic fest XIII.  XIV is a disaster and I don't hold up much hope for XV.   It has all come down to the drive sorely for money rather than creativity since that merger.
It's not a matter of greed. These games cost them considerably more to make than earlier FF games did (even than FFX), and don't sell as well. These games, while still profitable, are NOT as good for company finances as the better games in the series. They are trying to be creative, for sure. They have simply forgotten how. XII wasn't great, but it was still better than the trash being shoveled out by other companies, and it had a pretty good story other than the main character (same problem as X). XIV was a truly strawberries game, but it also cost them a ton to make, and they're basically giving it away until they fix it.

If it was about greed, they'd be doing what Zynga's doing, spending damn near nothing on development, reusing resources wherever possible, and focusing most of their budget on marketing and convincing people to buy in-game items. They'd be releasing four to five FF games a year. But S-E is not doing this. They know that good games sell better than bad, and they really do want to make good games. They just haven't any clue how anymore. FFXIII (and even XIV) was a strong effort, they just kind of fell on their face and came way short. I wouldn't call it a bad game, though, simply mediocre. Still a thousand times better than the vast majority of the Wii's third party library (if you wanna see quick money grabs, look no further than Wii shovelware).
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-14 17:40:30
I see what all of your are all saying, and just people's opinions should tell them "................... we failed". Think about it. If they were to come to these forums, they would feel like idiots lol. This forum is filled with (more-so) turn-based junkies. Everybody says that X (or even X-2) was the LAST good Final Fantasy game.

I'm a dude, and I can tell you straight that if a Final Fantasy story never made me shed a tear, then nope nope. It's not a "(recurring) Final Fantasy" to me! LOL I kid, kind of. But all the Final Fantasy games have just been EPIC until 11 (which shouldn't be even counted, so let's just pretend I said 12).

Here is all the Final Fantasy games listed, if I've actually played them and my experiences from it (note I'm not a Final Fantasy collector ANYMORE, just FF7 exclusively since my dumbass ex probably set up her house to get "robbed", thus taking my whole collection) (which is what happened to my FIRST Pc discs of FF7 I explained about a week ago,  :( )

Final Fantasy: Never played
II: Never played
III: Never played
IV: OwnED, never got to play it ( >:( )
V: Never played
IV: Actually want to really play
VII: ....... do I have to say something? lol was stolen, and re-bought 3 times (1 used pc, 1 new pc, 1 new ps1). That should say something.
VIII: I thought it was okay... wasn't feeling the card system (unless mixing up with IX, but sure it was here too) (still own a brand new copy green label for ps1 if anyone would like to purchase) (stolen, but bought back for good price).
IX: Great. Liked it mroe than VIII, but once again, didn't like the card system)
X: Epic. Never beat it yet, and regret it everyday. Got stolen.
XI: Never played, looks meh. Not really a fan of MMO's. Just a good story :)
XII: ... I hated it, rented once, bought later (when I collected; limited edition game and guide) and it got stolen. I don't miss it lol.
XIII: Topic of discussion
Tactics: I had alot of fun with this one when I was a kid. Just bought it again the other day :D

The rest I didn't list, I simply haven't played except for X-2. It got stolen :( lol

If I can be honest with you guys about something, but if the soundtrack is on point, then it makes the game more epic to me. Music was pretty good for XIII, but I didn't get the feeling with that game, and that's not good :O

Maybe it is just bad taste.  Everyone is welcome to like it but the fact is, it is a subpar effort full to the brim with flaws.

I have nothing against people liking the game (it is possible to like something which is flawed. It is possible to like anything), but I do when they make tired excuses for its flaws or pretend that the game had as much quality and content as 7-10.

One needs only to look at where the user reviews are heading to see the trend is downwards.  People are getting sick of the crap that Enix is firing out.

To sum up:

1.  Literally linear  for most of the game.  No way to go back on yourself.
2. Minigames almost non existent
3. Side quests that there are revolve around more fighting and grinding.
4. 2 AI characters, and auto battle doing most of the work.  No real brains required.  Dumbed down.  This happened because people accepted XII's battle system.
5. Over use of graphics and cutscenes.  Whole game is another failure in balance.
6.  Story is a joke, and even requires you to read a manual for exposition.
7. Traditional towns gone.  NPC relegated to near gone.  Nothing to do to break up the monotony of battles.  This is not a good thing.  This is against JRPG format, and it forces everyone to like it or lump it.  In the past some quests or places or shops could be skipped.

That's what I think about it....  SquareEnix now know that they can get away with doing this.  They learned that X-2. XII and the cash in spin offs of FF7 will sell like hot cakes no matter how bad the game or how flawed.  So... expect more of the same.  Graphics before substance, bloat before quality.

Since the merger, the quality of games has definately gone down in favour of pure greed.  We had X-2, the first sequel and a joke.  We have had FF7 turned into a cash cow with the spin offs.  We had XII where a battle could play for you while you sit there with the controller.  And now this flashy graphic fest XIII.  XIV is a disaster and I don't hold up much hope for XV.   It has all come down to the drive sorely for money rather than creativity since that merger.

And Kitase sums up the problem that he and his buddies have:

"If you're talking about the main Final Fantasy titles, one of the strong focuses of the series is cutting edge graphics. That's what people enjoy and that's what people associate Final Fantasy with."


"In that sense I would like to assure our users of this top quality artistic visual achievement. To do that we have to stick with high definition consoles."

All he cares about is graphics.

"That's what people enjoy and that's what people associate Final Fantasy with."

Err no it isn't  Mr Kitase.  It is 1 aspect but most people buy FF for the gameplay and for the miniquests and story.  The graphics are not a priority and I wish you and your team would learn that.  Todays graphics will be sh*t tomorrow, and then where does that leave a game which was bsed on graphics?  Hardly anyone will replay XIII in 10 years.

If that's all fact about what they were saying about the graphics, then that just changed the way I look at my used-to-be favorite developers. Read THAT Mr. Kitase.

The view you just made on XIII was 100% to me though.

1. It really IS linear, and I don't like being forced into one direction when I should be EXPLORING the beautiful graphics in the world instead of sitting on a tour bus...
2. It SHOULD have minigames... damnit. All we can do is sit on the tour bus I guess... I'd rather the card system back lmao.
3: If by side quests, you mean collect the floating orbs with potions and other worthless goodies that you won't need if you mastered the easy battle system of the game? Then damn. Lots of side-quests. Good work S-E. I love orbs.
4. ...
5. Did anyone really take in that this game IS Heavy Rain? Just longer and you're forced to do one thing lol.
6. If it's not the music, it's the plot I want. And I didn't like the main protagonist being such a buttercup lol. She didn't like nothing.
7. Oh, don't worry buddy! You can explore the new next-gen online menus scattered along your ONE path :) they're even given fancy names and pictures to heighten the experience!!!!

To sum everything up though... we want FF7 gameplay in a next-gen game. How can you mess that up???

FF series is a perfect example of the Dragon Ball Z Budokai series.

They had a good run, then Tenkaichi (FF7) came along, took over, made the BEST game out of the series Tenkaichi 3 (FFX) and then they went to strawberries when they made Raging Blast and Shin Budokai and all those games (... all games past XI). Came back with a remake with new features Tenkaichi Tag Team (FF7, 8, 9??) but only on PSP... they're on the same pattern lol. I just fear the making of Type-0... don't know much about it, but it was said it's based off FFXIII??? They're really attempting to give this the next-gen FF7 hype? LOL wow.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-08-14 17:45:04
I am sorry covarr but I don't agree that getting rid of things is a good thing.  Taking away minigames means less to do and the majority of people enjoyed them as part of a jrpg.  FF7 without gold saucer would not be better, only worse.

Innovation is not taking away.

It seems that any flaw or criticism is actually applauded by some, but the point is that although you might like the game without minigames, in the originals we got a CHOICE.  Now we don't.  As for FFX, it had far more things to do than grinding.  FF 13 had nothing.

It is no surprise to find that generally FF13 has been panned by critics and users alike... more so than any other FF game since X-2.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-08-14 18:29:04
IX was the last great FF, X was the last good FF.  nuff said.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Giullio on 2011-08-14 18:53:42
For me Final Fantasy Died with the PS2 when they released Final Fantasy X-2, the XII was cool tough but the summons sucked so hard that I hated it. Nowdays square-enix don't give a damn about their fans no remakes and only cr*ppy releases, for real, I hate what they became.  But that's my opinion You did the right thing selling it, as I said before, for me, the main essence of final fantasy died a long ago.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: The Seer of Shadows on 2011-08-14 19:18:18
Final Fantasy: Never played
II: Never played
III: Never played
IV: OwnED, never got to play it ( >:( )
V: Never played
IV: Actually want to really play
VII: ....... do I have to say something? lol was stolen, and re-bought 3 times (1 used pc, 1 new pc, 1 new ps1). That should say something.
VIII: I thought it was okay... wasn't feeling the card system (unless mixing up with IX, but sure it was here too) (still own a brand new copy green label for ps1 if anyone would like to purchase) (stolen, but bought back for good price).
IX: Great. Liked it mroe than VIII, but once again, didn't like the card system)
X: Epic. Never beat it yet, and regret it everyday. Got stolen.
XI: Never played, looks meh. Not really a fan of MMO's. Just a good story :)
XII: ... I hated it, rented once, bought later (when I collected; limited edition game and guide) and it got stolen. I don't miss it lol.
XIII: Topic of discussion
Tactics: I had alot of fun with this one when I was a kid. Just bought it again the other day :D

1) It's a real shame you've never played any of the old-school Final Fantasy games (I - VI).  They've become my favorites over time, even over FFVII, purely for their replay value.  They're really good!  (imo)

2) Holy Toledo, who keeps on stealing everything from you?  Talk about acquiring games illegally :P At this rate, you'll run out of cash to buy more copies of the same games with.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Vgr on 2011-08-14 19:55:28
I : Played a bit, liked it
II : Played a bit, liked it
III : Haven't played
IV : Finished and played TAY, loved it
V : Played it a lot and loved the gameplay
VI : Haven't played much, but liked the way it's made
VII : Awesome gameplay and story, although getting a bit boring. Actually finished it
VIII : First ever played. Loved the gameplay and story, and how there wasn't MP in this one. Actually finished it
IX : Played it quite a lot, and loved it. Played until PSP got stolen
X : Played and liked it, good gameplay although story a bit confusing
X-2 : Haven't played
XI : Haven't played
XII : Played quite a lot, but story was annoying and confusing. Gameplay was worth it
XIII : Good gameplay whatsoever, but I dislike the way it's made (DLPB said a lot on it, too much linear). I just hate hearing people telling that it was a better FFs that the previouses ones

That's pretty much all I had to say.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-08-14 20:44:14
I decided to change this post into a compilation of reviews. Just cause I can.

Main Series:
I: played and finished; loved it but the story was awkward at times
II: played and finished; liked it and liked the leveling system, but not one of my favorites
III: never played
IV: played and finished; loved it but it was pretty difficult for me
IV Interlude: never played; apparently it takes place between IV and TAY
IV The After Years: played but never finished; I didn't like it, it seems when Square makes a sequel to an old game they mess something up
V: never played
VI: played and finished; awesome, anyone who hasn't played should play it
Crisis Core: played and finished; might be better than VII, but the missions are too linear and repetitive
VII: played but never finished; it's a great game but I don't think it's as good as most people think it is (especially not the greatest game of all time)
Dirge of Cerberus: never played; always wanted to but never got a copy
VIII: played but never finished; another great game but it was too easy, I loved the card battle system though
IX: played but never finished; I only got about 2 minutes into this game until I was bored
X: played but never finished; liked it but didn't get very far, seems like the game is too easy
X-2: played but never finished; I liked the classes or whatever they are called
XI: never played
XII: played but never finished; I didn't get far but from what I played I loved it
XIII: played and finished; not like your traditional Final Fantasy, but it's still a great game
XIV: never played

Tactics Series:
Tactics: played and finished; loved it, another one of my favorites
Tactics Advance: played but never finished; no, just no, this game is a disgrace to its predecessor
Tactics A2: never played; if it's anything like Tactics Advance, I don't want to play it

Fighting Series:
Dissidia: played and finished; epic fighting game with some epic characters
Dissidia 012: played and finished; I loved the first one so I'm gonna love this one too, more characters and another story
Ehrgeiz: played and finished; I'll consider this a Final Fantasy game because of the characters that were in it, pretty fun game (especially the RPG mode)

Crystal Chronicles Series:
Crystal Chronicles: played but never finished; this is the only one I played of the series, and I didn't care too much for it

Others:
Mystic Quest: played and finished; loved it and yet another one of my favorites
Final Fantasy Legend: played but never finished; I wouldn't even consider this a Final Fantasy game, it was horrible
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Covarr on 2011-08-14 21:42:38
I am sorry covarr but I don't agree that getting rid of things is a good thing.  Taking away minigames means less to do and the majority of people enjoyed them as part of a jrpg.  FF7 without gold saucer would not be better, only worse.

Innovation is not taking away.

It seems that any flaw or criticism is actually applauded by some, but the point is that although you might like the game without minigames, in the originals we got a CHOICE.  Now we don't.  As for FFX, it had far more things to do than grinding.  FF 13 had nothing.

It is no surprise to find that generally FF13 has been panned by critics and users alike... more so than any other FF game since X-2.
You have a point. I was thinking in terms of required minigames, which usually kinda suck, as compared to optional minigames as seen in FF7.

Regarding X-2, I'm actually kinda saddened that it was received so negatively. Sure, it's got one of the worst stories in gaming history, but the battle system was actually fairly innovative and quite fun.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2011-08-14 21:57:22
X-2, the combat wasn't too bad but the whole thing reeks of fan service and 99 times out a hundred, Fan Service = BAD.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-08-14 22:25:00
yeah X-2 did have a good battle system, the sad thing is it destroyed one of my favourite FF storylines so I couldnt play it.  It was too cringing...

Quote
X: played but never finished; liked it but didn't get very far, seems like the game is too easy

Definitely not if you get the euro version.  Some of the quests and minigames, and the dark aeons and penance are not easy. ;)  Plus getting all the destruction spheres at cloister of trials is pretty cool.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: -Ric- on 2011-08-14 23:23:33
yeah X-2 did have a good battle system, the sad thing is it destroyed one of my favourite FF storylines so I couldnt play it.  It was too cringing...

the storyline was actually nice.. it revealed alot of secrets about spira's past etc... but.. the whole game was like... ugh... almost impossible to stand..
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2011-08-14 23:48:22
The series has lost the charm that made me fall in love with it, but I don't HATE the more recent titles. I loved all of them until XII which I enjoyed. (I'm forgetting XI, which I've never played and never will). I liked XIII.

Story-wise, it's quite as over-wrought, convoluted and pretentious as any other Final Fantasy game, which is actually a likeable factor for me. The story was an improvement over XII, which I found too political and preachy. The only problem I hadd with the story was that it made absolutely no sense unless you knew backstory that wasn't included in the game - not even in the data log. It's graphically beautiful. I'd still rather play XIII than a few other PS3 games I have in my library, but the problem lies with the fact that it's just not my favourite game on the system. It doesn't stand out, and at times it's just downright boring to play. I don't think it's awful, I don't HATE it, but it's a clear turn in the wrong direction.

I was pissed off when there wasn't a world map in Final Fantasy X, but removal of TOWNS? The game is a straight line until chapter 11, I just thought it was "OK", which is unacceptable!
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Jaitsu on 2011-08-14 23:49:41
i enjoyed the game, it wasn't everything i expected but i liked it.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-08-15 05:20:36
It's like nobody here even realizes that squarenix is a business and to a business, the only thing that matters are numbers
And no, fanboyism is not a valid source of numbers despite all your arguments.

And another thing. There are exactly two things you can do when you produce a game ( going bankrupt would be a third choice )
1) Make a good game
2) Make a widely appealing game

and those are FUNDAMENTALLY different things

All of you who like 13 are people in category 2. The same TYPE ( but not carbon copy ) of people that buy Wii game shovelware

Because when it comes down to it, FF13 is nothing but that. Final Fantasy themed shovelware cleverly disguised as a AAA game.

Oh and Ultima. No, you're not stupid because your opinion differs from mine. You're stupid because your opinion is so strong that it makes you unable to view something objectively.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-15 05:28:44
2) Holy Toledo, who keeps on stealing everything from you?  Talk about acquiring games illegally :P At this rate, you'll run out of cash to buy more copies of the same games with.

In my post it says that it was stolen by my ex-girlfriends ex from her house when I was with her... but looking back at it, and all the stuff I had there? ALL stolen? It was a setup for sure. Lol.

Along with my FF7 mini-collection (FF7 black label NEW, FF4, Tactics, FF8, FF9 < I was so into that one before it got stolen :[, FF10, FF10-2, Dissidia, Dissidia 012 Duodecim, FF12, FF7DoC, FF7 AC Limited Edition. All in one grab) they ALSO took my brand new ps3, my dvd collection (over a grand invested in a week's time, had all the weeds seasons up to 6, jersey shore 1 and 2, the spirits within, spirited away WHICH I NEVER GOT TO WATCH, and a bunch of other movies), my 2nd xbox 360, a stack of ps3 games AND my psp collection. If I see either one of them again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY1Vetd7OCs

Since DarkFang made a better more in-depth list than me, I'm gonna re-do mine off his. I did forget alot of them lol.

I decided to change this post into a compilation of reviews. Just cause I can.

Main Series:
IV Interlude: never played, but will one day when I get IV back :)
IV The After Years: never played, but doesn't seem interesting
VII CC: It did seem linear, but NOT as bad as FFXIII lol. I actually like this game, cause I already have a grip of the storyline. I took greyhound buses to towns looking for a copy of this game and every EB I went to messed with me :( first one I put it on hold and they sold it on me, then I took a taxi from one end of my town to another JUST to get there a minute after closing. I told the girl at EB I'd give her 20 bucks extra if she just gave me the damn game.... she waved it in front of my face and said, "oh, this one?" I replied with a smile and nodded. "Sorry. Computers are off." ...... so the NEXt day, I go back and they tell me the UMD was broken... ... ... .. .. .. ............................... so I went to one more place, they HAD it, but someone put it on hold right before I got there... just my luck. After weeks of searching, it was sitting on the Toronto EB shelf like it was always there in the first place... just taunting me... I swear if the case had a mouth, it would've said "Hey! Lookin' for me?  :wink: " Luckily, I still HAVE this game!! It was spared in the robbery, and I'm still playing through.
Dirge of Cerberus: Beat it!!! It was great! More epic with the keyboard and mouse usb function  8-)
XIV: LOLOLOL didn't I hear something about this game getting pulled off shelves by S-E cause of how bad it was put together or something along those lines..? Either that, or the website was picking fun at it.

Tactics Series:
Tactics: <3
Tactics Advance: Don't want to play it
Tactics A2: Never knew it existed... lol.

Fighting Series:
Dissidia: STOLEN :( SOOOOOOO EPIC (yes, these caps are aggressive lol)
Dissidia 012: STOLEN :( LOVED KICKIN' CLOUD's ASS AS TIFA LOL
Ehrgeiz: What a coincidence... I heard about this just yesterday... looks interesting.

Crystal Chronicles Series:
Crystal Chronicles: Never played. Looks interesting too.

Others:
Mystic Quest: Never heard of
Final Fantasy Legend: either of them

It's like nobody here even realizes that squarenix is a business and to a business, the only thing that matters are numbers
And no, fanboyism is not a valid source of numbers despite all your arguments.

And another thing. There are exactly two things you can do when you produce a game ( going bankrupt would be a third choice )
1) Make a good game
2) Make a widely appealing game

and those are FUNDAMENTALLY different things

All of you who like 13 are people in category 2. The same TYPE ( but not carbon copy ) of people that buy Wii game shovelware

Because when it comes down to it, FF13 is nothing but that. Final Fantasy themed shovelware cleverly disguised as a AAA game.

Oh and Ultima. No, you're not stupid because your opinion differs from mine. You're stupid because your opinion is so strong that it makes you unable to view something objectively.

LOL so true.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Covarr on 2011-08-15 05:31:29
Shovelware by definition is cheap crap designed to make it to market as fast as possible. Shovelware is not good OR wildly appealing. It doesn't need to be, because it's so low budget that it's profitable even if it sells like crap.

FFXIII was a failed attempt at a good game, not a cheap cash in. Please lose the greater-than-thou attitude and namecalling, it puts you in a bad light.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-15 05:34:21
Shovelware by definition is cheap crap designed to make it to market as fast as possible. Shovelware is not good OR wildly appealing. It doesn't need to be, because it's so low budget that it's profitable even if it sells like crap.

Uhm... I don't know if you literally just explained it, but what's shovelware?  :o lol

EDIT: Nvm looked it up. Lol yeah XIII is far from shovelware, but it's not golden either :)
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Covarr on 2011-08-15 05:39:03
Shovelware refers games that are pumped out as quickly and cheaply as possible, knowing that they don't have to sell very well to be a financial success. Games like Ninjabread Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjabread_Man). By spending as little as possible on development and marketing, they keep costs nice and low so that even if it's a complete flop (which it generally is) it will make them more money than they spent on it.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-15 05:53:04
I wonder if I said; "Someone make models for Zack and Sephiroth and I'll give you my copy of >FFXIII< for >360<" if anyone would take it insulting. I would. Lol.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-08-15 05:53:17
It's ok. Didn't hide it's linearity well, savepoints replace towns, etc. As I see it, gameplaywise, it's a simplified  auto-rpg. I'm dissapointed, but I knew I would be so it doesn't bother me much.

For me, ff died with ff10: The 1st time I was really disappointed. And btw FF12 > FF10 (You can't kill monsters with stuffed toys and volleyballs). FF12 was a pleasant surprise imo.
FF X-2 was a disaster. I agree, the actual rpg gameplay was good, but it still the worst FF to date.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: theosiris2010 on 2011-08-15 05:57:29
It's ok. Didn't hide it's linearity well, savepoints replace towns, etc. As I see it, gameplaywise, it's a simplified  auto-rpg. I'm dissapointed, but I knew I would be so it doesn't bother me much.

For me, ff died with ff10: The 1st time I was really disappointed. And btw FF12 > FF10 (You can't kill monsters with stuffed toys and volleyballs). FF12 was a pleasant surprise imo.
FF X-2 was a disaster. I agree, the actual rpg gameplay was good, but it still the worst FF to date.

You like FF12 over FF10?

image removed
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-08-15 06:22:02
any day
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-08-15 07:32:52
I have to agree, from what I've played of both, I prefer XII over X. I think the series started declining after VI, maybe VII.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-08-15 08:27:28
12 takes itself seriously ( to some degree. )
10, not so much
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: obesebear on 2011-08-15 14:43:53
You like FF12 over FF10?

image macro
Image macro's are for Completely Unrelated only.  Please read the rules.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: NFITC1 on 2011-08-16 17:07:36
As long as we're giving opinions:

FFI* - FFII*: On PSP they are great. I'd avoid the others because they feel clunky.
FFIII: I only played the DS version which I've heard is inferior to the original. Fun, but not enough to motivate me to complete it.
FFIV: I honestly don't care too much for this one. The characters are amazing though, but you never really get to choose who is in your party.
FFV: AAAAH! JOBS!!! The story's entertaining, but still feels a little empty. I'd say this is more fun than IV was.
FFVI*: Probably the pinnacle of SNES graphics outside of FX chips and pre-rendered graphics. Good story, but a few too many characters.
FFVII*: VERY well done. A bit too steam-punk pre-apocalyptic for me to call it my fave.
FFVIII: Too techno, not enough fantasy. Still, characters were decent if annoying.
FFIX*: Perfection in Disc form! I love every minute of playing this game with the exception of trying to catch frogs. :x
FFX: Hated. VAing had a habit of destroying beloved franchises (like Metroid now) and this was no exception. Over acted.
FFXI: never played
FFXII: It takes a certain kind of person to truly like this game enough to want to master it. I am not that person. VAing seemed a bit bland most of the time, but was at least more like natural speech.

Chrystal Chronicles: Eventually beat it with the help of a GS. Music is nice, but the story was hard to follow and/or care about.

Tactics: I have WoL for PSP, but I haven't opened it yet.

Dissidia: Story Mode execution was annoying. Battles could get awesome, especially in the coliseum.
Deodecim*: Better execution for Story Mode, but still a little on the slow side of getting entertaining. The Labyrinth is aggravating at times. New content plus old content is always a plus. Think Lego SW (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/929460-lego-star-wars) + Lego SW2:TOT (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/931977-lego-star-wars-ii-the-original-trilogy) = Lego SW:TCS (http://www.gamefaqs.com/wii/939578-lego-star-wars-the-complete-saga)

* - recommends
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Marc on 2011-08-16 19:19:00
FF1 : Ok game.  Never cared to finish it (NES version) as it gets really repetitive.
FF2 : Never played.
FF3 : Never played.
FF4 : One of my favorites of the series although it didn't age well.
FF5 : The best "battle" system of the SNES era.  Fun gameplay, lacking story.
FF6 : Really like this game but for some reason I always quit halfway through near the end of WoB.  I end up finishing it a few months later.  Great characters, great story, great gameplay.  Can't say why I never finish it in one go.
FF7 : My favorite of the series.  Also my first RPG ever 14 years ago.
FF8 : Good game but somewhat m'eh.  Drawing is a pain.  Never really played cards or "morphed" magic so that might explain why I find it tedious.  My thoughts on this game are fairly similar to the spoony bard's humourous take of it.
FF9 : Good game but somewhat m'eh.  Like it a bit better than XIII but couldn't emotionally connect to it.
FF10 : Good game but somewhat m'eh.  Like it a bit better than IX but couldn't emotionally connect to it.
FF10-2 : Horrible game.  Good battle system but everything else sucked donkey balls.  Hands down the worst FF I've played.
FF11 : I hate MMORPG so no thanks.
FF12 : This game was such a disapointment.  Best FF ever story-wise ... until we get to the tomb of the Dynast king and the game goes to strawberries.  After that, it's a horrible story and the gameplay is horrible so I'm amazed I even finished it.  The only FF after FF4 onward I didn't play a second time apart from XIII which is more recent.  Vaan and Penello could have been absent from the game without a single issue.
FF13 : Liked it better than I, XIII, IX, X an XII.  Liked it less than IV, VI and VII.  Probably in the same ballpark as V.  I should state that I don't mind linearality and mini-games and that towns were always a waste of time to me as well so I don't care they're gone (except when actual story happens there : ie : midgar, narshe, etc)..  Some sidequests would have been fun (no, I don't consider hunting to be sidequests).  So actual character development with backstory sidequests (think yuffie sidequest in ff7) would have been great.  But I liked the battle system (still required strategy while being a bit less tedious and more fast paced than past titles) and the story was good enough for me to want to finish the game.  Not sold on XIII-2 though.  I'll wait for reviews.

FF's should return to a world map though.  I miss the sense of scope it brought to the World.  FF12 was especially bad for this I find.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-08-16 22:34:48
FF8 : Good game but somewhat m'eh.  Drawing is a pain.  Never really played cards or "morphed" magic so that might explain why I find it tedious.  My thoughts on this game are fairly similar to the spoony bard's humourous take of it.

I believe you're referring to SpoonyOne? He started his X-2 review and he says he likes it more than X.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: FeliX Leonhart on 2011-08-16 23:47:29
Main Series:
FF I: never played
FF II: never played
FF III: played a bit on NDS (1 hour)
FF IV: played a bit on GBA (1 hour)
FF IV Interlude: never played
FF IV The After Years: never played
FF V: played on SNES but never finished
FF VI: finished on SNES;
FF VII: finished and liked it a lot
FF VII Crisis Core: played and finished
FF VII Dirge of Cerberus: played only till the end of the first chapter -_-
FF VIII: My favorite ^_^ Finished with pleasure
FF IX: finished, liked it a lot in my childhood
FF X: finished, good story
FF X-2: never finished, annoying style
FF XI: never played
FF XII: finished, a good product, nothing fascinating
FF XIII: awaited it, bought it, never unpacked though
FF XIV: playing it from time to time, maybe we can play together in that lonely world? PM me

Tactics Series:
Tactics: My first game for PSP... dissapointment...
Tactics Advance: finished. My favorite game on GBA, a great story
Tactics A2: only a shadow of TA

Fighting Series:
Dissidia: played it a bit and was dissapointed...
Dissidia 012: never played

Crystal Chronicles Series:
Crystal Bearer: I liked the start, but never finished cause my Wii died -_-
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Vgr on 2011-08-16 23:49:01
I'm really gettin' a PS3...
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-08-17 03:25:28
Ok, I'll give my opinions as well. I've finished all main FFs (not the online ones. Is it even possible?). Also tactics.

FF 1-3 on the NES. I like 'em. Played all on emulators. Long time ago though. Slightly touched the PSX versions (1 & 2).
FF 4-6 on the SNES.  6 is definitely the best. 4 is great too. 5 is fun to play, and is the SNES FF that is the most FF. Tried 4 and 5 on the PSX as well.
FF 7 Classic
FF 8 Good, but weird. Hard to say how I really feel about it.
FF 9 Classic
FF 10 meh... However, I must admit it's a good game if I put aside all the things that annoys me. Which is a lot.
FF mmorpg ... why? WHY? Couldn't this have been a spinoff series on it's own?
FF 12 I like it. I honestly really like it.
13, pretty much same as FF10.

Favs are 6, 7, 9 and 12 in no specific order.

All spinoffs and sh*t just annoys me. I would really need some convincing to even try one. The only exeption is FF Tactics (the first one, not that advanced crap). It came before FF was a never ending money machine, and, imo, it shows in it's execution.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: -Ric- on 2011-08-17 03:59:11
FF I: never played
FF II: never played
FF III: never played
FF IV: finished on gba, def the best version when it comes to extras.. however  i recomend the DS version because even tho it has less content, it has a far more chalenging difficulty and its far more fun to play.
FF V: playing it atm.. its kinda fun but things seem to happen very "randomly"
FF VI: 1 of the best if not the best final fantasy game imo.. snes version is great (with some cool patches that u can find on google) also finished the GBA version which has a cool translation and some fixes.. incase ur playing the gba version on PC u can also get some patches.. 1 of them even restores the music to be like the SNES version.. which as u can guess, makes the game awesome!
FF VII: finished way too many times.. was the 1st final fantasy i played and 1 of the best psx games ever released for sure
FF VII Crisis Core: finished it.. didn't rly enjoy the gameplay but storywise its decent
FF VII Dirge of Cerberus: tried it once.. but "shooting" games with ps2 controller is something i just cant do.. and i never managed to make any mouse work on my ps2
FF VIII: Finished it manyyyyyy times.. solo gameplays.. perfect gameplays.. starting at lvl 100... did pretty much everything there is to do.. was even thinking about downloading an hardcore patch but not rly sure which one to go with.. if any1 has suggestions feel free to tell me xD
FF IX: currently playing it for like the 5th time... 1 of the best in the series.. if u like final fantasy and never played 9.. ur doing it wrong, go out and buy it asap!
FF X: completed it aswell.. the international/european versions are simply awesome cause of the extra bosses (dark aeons + penance) i def recomend American players to import the JPN International version and play it (it has an option to change all text to English so there's no problems with language)
FF X-2: got to the 4th chapter.. then got bored of it... whole game is just.. too annoying :/
FF XII: finished, HUGE freaking game and it took me like 10 hours siting infront of the ps2 to kill yiazmat.. (or whatever its name is) gameplay is not bad even tho its mostly auto.. (which is a good thing, would be very boring to have to be fighting every monster manualy) overall its a good game but i doubt i will replay it
Tactics Advance: finished it MANY years ago.. its pretty fun considering its portable, lots of missions and the rule system allows for some diversity.. very good game for a system like GBA
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-08-17 13:09:28
Guess it's my turn then...

FFI - Never played
FFII - Never played
FFIII - Never played
FFIV - Finished Complete collection. I honestly don't know what happened.
FFV - Finished GBA version. Pretty good I thought, I liked the Job class system.
FFVI - Finished GBA version. Pretty good, not the best though.
FFVII - Finished, loved, still love it. Always be number 1 :)
FFVIII - Finished. Kinda dull, draw system was terrible. Bad Square, bad!
FFIX - Finished. Loved it. 2nd fav after VII.
FFX - Finished. The ending didn't make me cry at all. Bye Tidus!
FFXII - Playing. Seems alright, who knows when I'll finish it.
FFXIII - Finished, loved it. Can't wait for XIII-2 :)
Dirge of Cerberus - Finished, liked it. Story was a bit wtf, but I liked it.
Crisis Core - Finished, loved it. I hated that it messed with FF7's story. Why add Genesis into Nibelheim?
Type 0 - Played the Jap demo, it's pretty good. I recommend you try it.
Dissidia - Was alright, pretty empty though.
Dissidia 012 - Love it. Why didn't they make the first like this? I hope they make another with more characters and stages.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-08-17 17:36:31
FFI:  (Origins) Played a third of this, it couldn't keep my attention any longer.
FFII:  (Origins) Played about half of this, got a save currently.  Stopped playing to work on Revisited.
FFIII:  What is FFIII?  the numbers get confusing.  Don't think I played this one.
FFIV:  Pretty awesome.  Too short.  Awesome characters and gameplay.  Meh story.
FFV:  I love FFV.  The job/classes are awesome in a proto-tactics sort of way.
FFVI:  Only played half...yes it is blasphemous, but that's how it is.
FFVII:  Will be placed in my casket with me when I'm dead.
FFVIII:  Good game.  Not the best...very easy...some innovation here, but could have been better.
FFIX:  I still love IX.  The last great FF for me.  Still think it had the best ending in the series (minus necron).
FFX:  The beginning of the end for me.  Liked it, but will never love it.
FFXI:  Never played.
FFXII:  What I played was good, I just wasn't prepared to do the same thing for 120 hours in a row. 65 was plenty.
FFXIII:  Had brief access to PS3, time was better spent on COD than on XIII, however pretty it was.
FFT:  Awesome, up there with IX and V for me.
FFX-2:  The story was crap, and the fact they gave X a longer life is crap.  But this wasn't a bad game.
Dirge:  I loved Dirge.  It kept the blasphemy to a minimum and I liked the weapon system.
Ehrgeiz:  I know it doesn't really count, but I think they should have made a proper game out of the Dungeon diving game. 

For me it is:

1- VII
2- IX
3- Tactics
4- VIII
5- V

And the others fall below these.  I know VI lovers will raid my town with torches and pitchforks, but oh well.  X made me feel dirty, especially Wakka.  XII felt like a group of manicans in a ball of different, but not actually different side-quests.  FFI is there because there needs to be a FFI.  FFII had a bit of depth.  Idk wtf FFIII is.  FFIV was the first really great FF I think.  FFV was a little less emotionally touching, but had all the parts of a great game.  FFVI, tried it plenty of times, just never kept my attention for the whole game.  VII is more worthy of worship than many of this world's gods.  VIII was good, but fails compared to VII or IX.  IX is great, feels a little pointless at various points, but brings everything together well.  FFX WAS a good game...I just don't like it very much.  FFXI, bastards.  FFXII, like vanilla ice cream.  FFXIII, why..., and Tactics had a kickass story and great gameplay if you like the Strategy thing.  I did play with gameshark a lot, and it was a lot of fun being able to use any character/class/monster, so maybe this is skewed.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: vaccine.exe on 2011-09-06 03:42:52
Played XI for about 5.5yrs and loved it! It has an absolutely insane amount of stuff you can do but the end game stuff relies on lifeless egomaniacle friendships so I was always a lower high end player. I would still play it but im married with three kids lol and my wife hates me playing it. Some  stuff has been unlocked in the game that makes certain storyline completion alot easier which was a blessing and made it alot more fun. Very very very very very time consuming game lol.

First single player version I played was XII and I really enjoyed it but it was easy to beat and didnt take me very long. I have like maybe a 70% complete save. Just needed to collect every item that kind of thing.

Played X but never finished it, and I have just recently taken up VII and VIII

XIII looked stunning and that was about it for me it was way to simple and not very much fun. I did enjoy finishing it though.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-06 04:15:09
In order of my best to worst:

I have not played XI or seen anything of it other than soundtrack.

VII - In my opinion the greatest game of all time, although it is not perfect and that's why I am at Qhimm's, to correct it.  What more can you say about this game that hasn't already been said?  It has a top notch soundtrack, it was revolutionary in its day, it has an excellent story, great gameplay and characters.

X - A great game.  Get's a lot of stick for the story but I thought it was well done, had good characterisation and an excellent ending.  I was hooked from beginning to end.  Lots of stuff to do, sidequests, minigames, puzzles.  The last good FF game. **** you Enix.

VIII - Loved the story (some slight problems but overall was good), loved the characters, loved the gameplay, loved the card game and other miniquests.  Had imho, the greatest game soundtrack of all time.

IX - Decent story but I don't think it is up there with the top 3 in that dept.  Had some solid gameplay, art and music.  An excellent addition.  Unique among my favourite 4.

VI - Classic game, although totally overrated in terms of story.  Solid gameplay and revolutionary at the time for RPG.

I-V - Not played them half way and so I cannot judge but I am going to shove them above the the below because I hate the ones below.

X-2 - Solid gameplay but crippled by the most moronic fan service, story, voice acting and characterisation in FF history. "Hiya Booyyyyyyyyyyys"

XII - After X-2 disaster I thought "Well it can't get any worse than that and that was a sequel." I was wrong.  It did because this useless game arrived where all I did was press X with 2 gambits installed for 90% of the game.  The story was the most pseudo self indulgent piece of twaddle I have ever seen for a game.  No more deep than my bathtub.   The character development was not there and nor was a game I could care about.  I would dearly love to place this as the worst FF game but I can't because the turd to follow was even worse.

XIII - I never played it  because I wasn't foolish enough to buy it after reading tons of reviews,watching many walk-through pieces on Youtube and seeing others on it (I got fooled by X-2 and XII but not a 3rd time).  What is clear is this game at least has a story but it is contrived nonsense that even requires a manual for exposition.  It has had the heart and soul of RPG ripped out of it to pander to the FPS generation.  The gameplay is basic and mostly uninvolving.  The balance is all wrong as graphics are now all the design team care about.  We got this because people accepted XII.

------------ and I will go into scores:

On my travels through thousands of reviews, I did find one major problem which I think needs addressing.

A lot of the time, people who gave games 5,6 or 7 (average to decent scores) actually did not enjoy the game. I think sites give too much freedom for people to pick and choose how they score a game and this interferes with accuracy.

Now, to be fair, it isn't just those scores that suffer. People who give most games 1 or 2 out of 10 are also being unfair, and usually so are the ones giving games 10.

In order that people can make a more educated decision on a game, I think this is how it should be structured:


Story (if game is story inclined, if not, like mario, score option is not allowed). (out of 10).

Gameplay (out of 10).

Graphics [relative to the time period] (out of 5).

Music (out of 5).

and Longevity (out of 5).

and then an average calculated. The user is not allowed to just slap a number on it.
--------------

So, if we take an example being my preference on the FF games, I would go with:

FF6-
Story: 4
Gameplay: 8
Graphics: 5
Music: 5
Longevity: 4

Score 26/35

FFVII-
Story: 10
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 4
Music: 5
Longevity: 5

Score 34/35

FFVIII-
Story: 8
Gameplay: 9
Graphics: 5
Music: 5
Longevity: 5

Score 32/35

FFIX-
Story: 6
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 5
Longevity: 5

Score 31/35

FFX-
Story: 9
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 5
Longevity: 5

Score 34/35

FFX-2
Story: 2
Gameplay: 8
Graphics: 5
Music: 2
Longevity: 2

Score 19/35

FFXII-
Story: 3
Gameplay: 5
Graphics: 5
Music: 3
Longevity: 1

Score 17/35

FFXIII-
Story: 5
Gameplay: 2
Graphics: 5
Music: 3
Longevity: 1

Score 16/35

Mario Bros 3
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 4
Longevity: 5

Score 24/25

Mario 64-
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 4
Longevity: 5

Score 24/25

A lot of that is of course relative.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Masa-Buster on 2011-09-06 04:21:30
FF1: Played and Finished countless times, DoS Version though. Didn't finish the NES though I'm beta testing FF:Rebalanced mod right now and it's pretty good challenge with alot of changes.
FF2: Played the DoS version, clocked 10 or 11 hours then i just stopped playing.
FF3: Started playing the DS version didn't get to far, finished the NES version on an Emulator though. Played it for 3 days straight loved it.
FF4: Played until about an hour or 2 before the last fight and stopped playing it.
FF5: Made it to the Fire Crystal and then I stopped playing, but one of my favorites.
FF6: Played until World of Destruction on Anthology, then my memory card was corrupted haven't touched it since.
FF7: Finished with all sidequests etc. On PS1/PC w/o Mods, and with mods.
FF8: Like FF3 I played it straight not playing anything else determined to finish it.
FF9: Made it to Disc 3 but then I started playing FF6 then memory card was corrupted.
FF10: Loved it, Great game another one of my favorites.
FF11: Never played it. Never saw an interest either.
FF12: Played it, liked it, but lost my copy so never touched it or bought another copy. Still have my save files though.
FF13: Played it and finished it, I liked it but I didn't consider it a true final fantasy game.

Dissidia: LOVED IT TO BITS clocked 60-70 hours.
Dissidia 012: Love it also but I haven't had the time to play it.
Crisis Core: Loved it 20 times more then Dissdia. 94 hours and 32 minutes. Missions all complete game beat twice.
Tactics: Never played it.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: vaccine.exe on 2011-09-06 19:24:40
If anyone has questions about XI I am happy to answer from my experiences, I would love an opportunity to blab about it for a bit  :-P
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-07 02:00:23
I'm sure you would.  Remember...MMORPGs are EVIL!
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-07 02:09:54
Mario Bros 3
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 4
Longevity: 5

Score 24/25

Mario 64-
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 5
Music: 4
Longevity: 5

Score 24/25

The hell?
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-07 02:12:02
 ;D  I added it as a comparison...  mario doesnt have a story so that's how I rated em.  I am still not happy with my system (since mario 64 is greater than 3, but my system is more to how it was at the time....) but that's not a priority since at moment im dying with this damn menu.,
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Marc on 2011-09-07 03:57:41
XIII - I never played it  because I wasn't foolish enough to buy it after reading tons of reviews,watching many walk-through pieces on Youtube and seeing others on it (I got fooled by X-2 and XII but not a 3rd time).  What is clear is this game at least has a story but it is contrived nonsense that even requires a manual for exposition.  It has had the heart and soul of RPG ripped out of it to pander to the FPS generation.  The gameplay is basic and mostly uninvolving.  The balance is all wrong as graphics are now all the design team care about.  We got this because people accepted XII.

I'm surprised you haven't played it.  I'd recommend you at least rent it to try it and forge your own first hand playing opinion of it.  It is, by and large, a huge improvement over X-2 and XII and is a good game.  Definitely not PSX-era FF-good but a good game nonethless if you accept it for what it is (an interactive novel with battles).  Whether it fits into the standard RPG mold or not doesn't detract me from having a good time with it and that's all that matters to me. 

Wouldn't play it a second time though as the replay value is somewhat lacking in my eyes.  That's one of its flaws to me.  But then again most games these days have very low replay value to me, RPG or otherwise.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: vaccine.exe on 2011-09-07 06:57:44
el oh el "EVIL" nah FFXI isnt evil WoW is evil. You would be very surprised at how good FFXI is, it has all the hallmarks of previous FF's albeit in a different structure but hey that's not anything new from one FF to another. I will wager that I could find a comparison to any feature of any FF you pick sir! :lol:
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-07 15:41:35
Haha, I'm sure you could find a comparison, and I don't doubt that XI is a great game.  It is just that after investing God knows how much of my life into Runescape (classic mind you, not the garbage they play nowadays) between ages 12 and 16, I have deemed all MMOs Evil.  They are like a drug addiction, whereas traditional RPGs are more like a blow-up doll.  Both are probably a waste of money in order to somehow fulfill an unsatisfied life, but at least with the doll, you own it forever; with the MMO (drug addiction) you gotta continue paying for it at regular intervals.

And if you do want to make an attempt at a worthy comparison, I challenge you to tell me what is comparable to the Materia System of VII!  Because this remains my favorite system to date, and things such as Junction System (VIII) and Job Classes, do not qualify as adequate comparisons. Ha!
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-07 16:21:42
Wouldn't the Esper system be almost the same as the Materia system?
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-07 16:30:16
VI is an area that I have little experience with.  So maybe.  Is it?

I mean, I enjoy playing with Support, Independent, and Command Materia the most.  Deathblow+Added Cut effectively creates a 3x-cut; 6 Quadra Magics paired with 6 Comet2 with an MpTurbo paired with Comet2 with W-Magic and you got 80 high powered comets flying at the enemy with 1 turn; 8 Counter=Mimes for epic Limit Miming.  This is a very small sample of why I love materia.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: vaccine.exe on 2011-09-07 20:35:52
The materia answer will have to wait until I play through VII as "my" understanding of it is zero unless you want to waste I imagine pages of post explaining it to me back and forth. The junctioning I will take a crack at.....

So from my limited play of VIII my experience is that junctioning  allows you to attach magic to boost certain stats and allow you to boost defensive and/or offensive abilities. Furthermore, correct me if im wrong here, but some junctions allow you a chance to inflict the status of the said magic junctioned either as a status ailment or added damage?

One example that comes to mind straight away is the alignment of day and weather.... sounds cosmic I know but I kid you not ;D Vana'diel has days based on the elements and the same for weather. I.E. if it were Firesday with single Fire weather then your damage output from Fire based magic will be increased by a percentage. In the case of double Fire weather it is increased further again. Equally if the magic you are casting is of the status ailment inflicting type and is fire based then it effects chance to land and duration, which helps in the case of sticking it to higher level mobs. Obviously thats not "junctioning" but using the properties of the environment in a "junctioning" like fashion to boost your magic ability.

For the most part though the comparison comes in the form of equipment. Adding first to what I just wrote are elemental staves as this is a good example, these directly add a pre-set and consistent 10-25% damage bonus to magic damage and chance to land ailments and duration. It is interesting that you mentioned "job classes" as I have to delve into this area to explain further. Staves in the case of the job "Summoner" directly effect the amount of MP used by the summon per "tick". "Tick" refers to MP used every 3 seconds by the summon to remain summoned.

Again "job classes" are important to this explanation. I will use the example of "Thief" as its what I played most. As you level a job you also level its inherent stats the same as for example Squalls inherent stats. In FFXI the stats are capped based on what job you are playing at the time I.E. Thief is geared towards high Agility, Dexterity, Evasion and Dagger skill. There is a whole classing system that determines what level a jobs abilities cap at but as an example:

Thief: (these are just random numbers im using)
DEX-250
AGI-250
EVA-320       
Dagger Skill-300
All other stats-150-200

In the case of FFVIII and Sqaull he takes magic and junctions it to boots his inherent stats thereby increasing his damage and/or defensive ability. In the case of me and my Thief I use certain pieces of equipment to increase my stats with the same goal in mind, to increase mostly my evasion and dagger skill was my flavour. I was all about hitting and not being hit.

So you see they compare very closely they are just doing it in different ways, VIII uses magic junctions in the place of equips whereas XI is simply the reverse. With each job in XI you are simply aiming to acquire equips that boost the stats that are desirable to that job, equally in VIII you are junctioning to suit a desired task you choose a char to do.

On a final note some equips in XI will inflict status ailments or elemental damage when you are hit, The latter elemental is always el oh el but the status ailment gear is great but alot of its geared around mages in an attempt to offer some added defensive ability as they are fairly squishy jobs. And I 100% whole heartedly agree that MMORPGS eat your soul hence I dont play it any more 5yrs was enough got pretty bad there for a while but I dont regret it.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-08 11:44:37
[Offtopic]
Yes MMOs are evil. I don't believe (most) game developers have evil intentions, and most MMO players probably have some sort of life. But personally I detest the ide behind MMOs.

Even if a MMO is free it's still kinda evil. Yes, it becomes like a drug I believe. There is always something to do, or rather, the illusion of something different to do. In reality the players do the same thing over and over again. That's exactly what creates the addiction. Doing the same thing again and again. Making you pay for it is beyond evil.

All games are like this, but at least with normal games it ends at some point.

Yes, the materia system is the best system. It's genius. May have been based on FF6 but still better.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-09-10 14:50:19
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/09/09/square-enix-planning-ahead-for-final-fantasy-xiii-3.aspx

 ;)
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-10 19:41:33
you gotta be kidding me
is this strawberries never gonna end
also, the comments on that site are even worse than youtube comments
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-10 21:22:20
lol, the comments jeez.  Are we the only true FF fans left?  "I need XIII Versus DAMMIT!! NOW!"  it is just sickening.  I'm going back to my corner to play with materia.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-09-10 21:41:12
While it's here I might as well post some stuff about XIII-2:

Returning characters:
Lightning
Serah
Snow (Gone missing, Serah finds his necklace)
Hope (Seen in latest trailer, saves Serah and Noel from a monster)
Vanille (Voice actress confirmed her return)
Fang and Sazh are to return, but there's been nothing shown yet.

Random battles return, as do towns and NPCs. Some battles can be seen on the map like in the original.

Reaction commands appear in the battles, similar to KH2.

There is a time travel system which will unlock multiple endings. Depending on your choices, your ending changes.

Quote
A gameplay element called the Mog Clock has been added, where the player must attack monsters on the field before the time's up to get the upper hand in the ensuing battle. When the player attacks a monster, the screen lights up and the scene switches to a battlefield, marking the start of a battle. NPCs (such as the remnant PSICOM operatives) will fight monsters that appear in the field to weaken them before a fight. Though the player still controls one out of a three-member party, some monsters can be used as party members. Players can customize a monster's stats via leveling up and even equip them with accessories to further boost their powers. As a bonus, the weather or Climate Type in an area will affect battles, and at times, guest characters will join the party.

Quote
A new dungeon exploration system has been added called Unstable Rifts. As the player guides the character through the platforms, they'll have to grab crystals with floor tiles disappearing behind them along the path. In the E3 2011 demo, solving the puzzle in the Rift weakens the boss Paradox Alpha, also known as Atlas.

Quote
Another new gameplay element is the Historia Crux feature, the time travel system in the game that can be accessed through the use of gates throughout areas on the field. The gates are activated by finding special Artefacts in hidden treasure chests using Mog, and by resetting the gates, Noel and Serah can redo their adventures. Using Historia Crux, the player will be able to choose the location or era to travel to. There will be a "gate matrix," where players will select their next location based on the game's AF (After the Fall of Cocoon) timeline. Players will also be able to access the save and main menus through gates.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: hian on 2011-09-10 22:55:49
Played pretty much all the FF games there are, except some of the never tactics editions, the FF7 spin-offs(because of how the mess with the original storyline and art-style), 11(P2P mmo's don't sit well with me) and the Crystal Chronicals series, and Legends/Saga or whatever name they go by these days.

If I had to rate them:
FF1-3 - Great by the standards of its time - shait by todays standards, all rank pretty much the same in my eyes.
FF4 - The first FF game to have a story and character development worth talking about. A good game.
FF5 - Took a step backwards in terms of story and character development, but was a good game all the same.
FF6 - Great game. I'd probably rank this is high as 7, if it wasn't for the poorer graphics, and sometimes
messy exploration elements.
FF7 - The best game in the series. Was groundbreaking in its time. Good, in many ways, even by todays standard,
if we ignore poor translation, dated graphics and dated sound.
FF8 - Very good, but took a step back in terms of story and characters, and contrived combat/magic system. Kept everything else that was good though, and improved on sound and graphics.
FF9 - Very good. Took a step up from FF8 in terms of story and characters, but I felt it tried to hard to play on nostalgia of fanbase, by it's return to nes/snes era style, which never really sat well with me to begin with. Magic system slighly annoying, and the encounter rates unbearable.
FF10 - Great. Sound and graphics, top notch. Story and character development was great too, even if I disliked much of the cast. The combat/magic system was great, the only one a really enjoyed since FF7. Took a great step back in terms of mini-games/additional gameplay elements, and in terms of exploration though.
FF12 - Good. It was a good rpg, it just wasn't a good FF game. Difuse, and unengaging story. Next to no character progression. Bland soundtrack. Great graphics though, and the gameplay was ok.

FF tactics - Great game. Although, as a strategy rpg, I think it falls short compared to Vandal Hearts in all departments except for the class system. It also has some major balancing issue.

Personally, I though FF13 was ok.
It ranks the same way FF12 did to me - namely, ok as a game, but shait as FF-game.
If they'd put another name on the cover, I'd probably go "Well, this is ok". The cover however, says Final Fantasy, and that raises the bar. Unfortunately, it raised the bar above the quality of the game.

Loved the graphics, and thought the story was ok. The characters, although I didn't much like any of them, where believable in a sense, which I though was a breath of fresh air considering how often characters in Jrpgs, IMO are often completely out of touch with how real people would act given their scenarios. So a small pluss for the writing, which is a step forward compared to the non-existent character development in FF12.
Finally, the soundtrack was ok.

That's all the positive I can say for the game really.

As for the negative:

Gameplay-wise it was strawberries.
The linearity destroyed any sense of grand avdenture that FF games have always tried to give off.
Combined with the lack of minigames/extra scenarios(like the FF7 bike scenario, snow board, submarine etc),
npc interaction, and town/world-map exploration, any time spendt on the non-battle portion of the game was rendered extremely boring, and made into a vacous process that served no other purpose but giving us a pretty "loading screen" on the way to the next battle.

Now, if the story was more than "just ok", and the battle system was completely awesome, then I might not have cared all that much. That isn't the case however.

The battle system was very pretty to look at, but the fact that you only control one character at the time, makes the game feel extremely restrictive and limited in terms of strategical aspects as compared to the earlier FF games.
The AI contolled partners aspect, further pulls it down. If I wanted to program A.I's and have a computer do my gaming for me, I wouldn't be gaming in the first place - I'd be in robot engineering.

The last grudge is how short the game is, and how due to its linearity and combat centered nature, it has less to no replay value. Rather than paying todays prices for a game(and rpg no less), that only lasts for 10-20 hours, of which there is no point in going through several times, I'd rather buy something else altogether.

But all in all, even with this gripe - just for the graphics, the soundtrack, and the story, I'm still temped to say that the game warrants a single playthrough. Even more so, if it wasn't named Final Fantasy.
However, it is a FF game, and by that note, a poor one at that.

The thing that provokes me the most though, is how "easy"(it might take a long time, but it's far from impossible) it would be to make the game much better.
Add some towns and npc interaction. Add something similar to a world map, with some exploration elements.
Putt in some mini-games or additional gameplay elements to break up the pace and liven up the gameplay formula.
Get Nobuo to work on the soundtrack.

Had they done that, I'd probably rate the game that much higher. They didn't, and that in my mind, lowers my opinion of the game, and the creators that much more.

Now, with Xenoblade, and The Last Story(arguably one of the best Jrpg since FF10, and IMO better than most, even counted psx/ps2 era), it just struck me how much square-enix has screwed over the franchise.
As much as I want a FF7 remake - I wouldn't want one made by these jokers.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-10 23:21:04
Quote
As much as I want a FF7 remake - I wouldn't want one made by these jokers.

Let's make that a sticky.

Quote
you gotta be kidding me
is this sh*t never gonna end

Nope 'cause they are making money.  If you think this forum is bad, I suggest you go onto a few general game forums where they are currently lapping it up like the moronic sheep they are.

Case in point:

Quote
by Aeolus Friday, September 09, 2011 at 09:17 PM
First let us see how XIII-2 turns out. Though for me, XIII-2 is already looking like a win in my book. So I'm sure I won't mind XIII-3 if and when it comes out, lol.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-11 01:03:28
@Hian - Nice objective critiques there.  I utilize the "Good for an RPG, strawberries for an FF" system of rating too lol.

I do wonder though...why don't more people rank FFV and FFT higher?  I know V's story wasn't spetacular and the characters were pretty much just there, but I think it was the first time in the series where you could actually make a character the way you wanted a character to be.  The previous games were like "Here's your monk, here's your knight, and here's your white mage - have fun!" or "Choose a pure class for this blank character - have fun!"  FFV instead gave you the option to say "Here are four characters, you can make them proficient in whatever you like and by the way, you can give them a secondary set of abilities!"  Same with Tactics.  It allowed for the practical Summoner with White Magic ability or the absurd Thief with Black Magic ability if you so chose.  AND in each of these games there are classes available that I don't really recall seeing in any other FFs like the Trainers and Geomancers.  Capturing enemies and unleashing them for damage and status ailments?  Awesome!  Enticing an enemy creature to join your party?  Even better!  Poisoning bitches when you attack while standing on grass or petrifying them when your standing on stone?  Sweet!

Is it because fewer people have played through these games (as opposed to FFVII and FFX)?

I think this is cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqZO3X-wxq0&feature=related)
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2011-09-11 03:51:39
While it's here I might as well post some stuff about XIII-2:

Returning characters:
Lightning
Serah
Snow (Gone missing, Serah finds his necklace)
Hope (Seen in latest trailer, saves Serah and Noel from a monster)
Vanille (Voice actress confirmed her return)
Fang and Sazh are to return, but there's been nothing shown yet.

Random battles return, as do towns and NPCs. Some battles can be seen on the map like in the original.

Reaction commands appear in the battles, similar to KH2.

There is a time travel system which will unlock multiple endings. Depending on your choices, your ending changes.


Do you have a source for Fang returning? Because she was my favourite character. I've been following her English VA (Rachel Robinson) on Facebook and she's said she hasn't recorded anything, and Vanille's VA confirmed that recording had ended. Either Rachel is being very coy about her NDA or she's not in it, which would be a shame.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-11 12:13:47
Nope 'cause they are making money.  If you think this forum is bad, I suggest you go onto a few general game forums where they are currently lapping it up like the moronic sheep they are.

I was specifically talking about the whole "make 20 FF13 games" thing. I'd rather have SQX go bankrupt than continue releasing crap
and while they make money off ff13, I heard they're not writing very good numbers and partially also red numbers.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-09-11 12:51:25

Do you have a source for Fang returning? Because she was my favourite character. I've been following her English VA (Rachel Robinson) on Facebook and she's said she hasn't recorded anything, and Vanille's VA confirmed that recording had ended. Either Rachel is being very coy about her NDA or she's not in it, which would be a shame.

It was announced during the conference when the game was revealed. They said "The old characters from the Original Final Fantasy XIII will be returning, with important and unexpected changes"

They weren't supposed to say anything about Vanille and Fang, but Vanille's VA let it slip. Or it could be that Fang's lines just haven't been recorded yet.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-11 14:04:58
I was specifically talking about the whole "make 20 FF13 games" thing. I'd rather have SQX go bankrupt than continue releasing crap
and while they make money off ff13, I heard they're not writing very good numbers and partially also red numbers.

Yup and that is what I mean, they are obviously making profit or they wouldn't do it.  How many people will buy FFXIII-2?  I'd say a lot even though it is sure to have a ridiculous story (even more ridiculous than XIII) and be a cash in.

I have also noticed a trend....  up to FF9 (in terms of year released, because even the old FF's have been redone and gone bananas)) we had a reasonable FF logo...  then for FFX the age of graphics came upon us, and the logos started getting more and more ridiculous.  Because Biggerer is betterer....

Observe:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/all+final+fantasy+logos+/Liam-The-Hedgefox/Final%20Fantasy/Final_Fantasy_Logos.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Final_Fantasy_Type-0_logo.jpg

and now FFXIII:  http://www.ffxiii.com/images/logo.jpg

And ffxiii-2  http://www.finalfantasy13-2game.com/images/FFXIII2_logo.jpg

I can look at http://www.finalfantasy13-2game.com/images/FFXIII2_logo.jpg

and already tell it is going to be a sh*tty cash in (reminds me of http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/8/83/FFX-2logo.jpg ).  As we say in Britain... Look at the STATE of it.
===========

Final Fantasy Versus XIII  is an upcoming action role-playing game published by Square Enix for the PlayStation and currently being developed by the company's 1st Production Department alongside Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy XIII-2, and Final Fantasy Type-0.

<  Quantity not quality these days.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-11 18:23:13
For FFXIII i would mostly agree with all that DLPB said. I didn't feel the thrill of it all. I only played it till the end just hoping that maybe the boss will be awesome :P. FFXII was ok, although the summons felt a little weird though. I can say that FFX-2 was a little bit meeh. It surely had a good storyline. It had a heck of a difficulty. Alternative ending,secret things etc was really cool. I hated the 'i will only play with 3 girls that run under the snow and the sun with only their underwear and maybe a piece of cloth here and there. FFX was nice. FFIX was even better. FFVIII was kinda nice. It's plot definetly had me hanging on the screen. FFVII... no need to comment it really. The fact that they made FFVII-CRISIS CORE,FFVII-BEFORE CRISIS,FFVII-ADVENT CHILDREN, FFVII-ADVENT CHILDREN COMPLETE,FFVII-DoC and left a hint of maybe another sequel. just says everything about it :P. I don't recall a lot of things about FFVI and before. (Oh and dissidia is really cool :P ). The only way for Square-enix to repent for it's sins is to make FFversus XIII the most epic of the fabula nova crystalis. I mean i've been waiting and hanging on any info and video available for 5 years+. They'are really testing my patience by postponing it again and again and again. I will wait sometime patiently and wait to be impressed by it and hope that all this time won't be wasted...
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2011-09-11 22:08:30
To be honest, I've pretty much given up on future titles being anything near as epic in the same ways as previous titles. I really think it's due to staff changing (Sakaguchi) and changing the way they're structured as a business (merger with Enix). I still think their titles are polished to the nth degree, but there are too many arms to the company now, and holding on to what Final Fantasy titles previously were is only going to result in disappointment with future games.

I've decided I don't care. I liked FFXIII for what it was. Yeah, I was incredibly disappointed, but that's because I was expecting it to be like all FF titles USED to be. Like I expected XII to be what FF used to be. I need to let go of that, and embrace the new games with an open mind. XIII had some really interesting character development and plot elements, though bits of it were stupid.

The bottom line for me is - regardless of whether or not it was a good "Final Fantasy game" it's still one of my favourites of this generation. There just isn't anything else like it. And I WILL be buying XIII-2, because it's worth it to find out what happens to Fang and Vanille.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sen on 2011-09-11 22:37:08
Ff13 may feel like its different ff game but for me i really loved it i cant believe DPLB is saying its a piece of sh** while you havnt played it yourself and observing it from videos? I agree when i saw the vids i thought this game would be crap but after i got my hands on it i was kinda impressed btw ff10 rocks!!
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-11 22:47:12
I don't suppose actually holding the joypad is going to make much difference to the games contents or does it use some sort of DNA system on the joypad where it changes dependent on if a human is actually playing?  Reviews , videos and actually watching people first hand on it cannot lie.

What is more, the reason review sites are there is to show you if you want to BUY the game.  I don't. The clever person is the person who does not buy the game after realising he will not like it, rather than buys it and then has to sell it on after being robbed.

The story and gameplay are as plain on youtube as they are when playing it.  I don't like a 3 mile gauntlet with retarded characters and cutscenes at every checkpoint.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: xLostWingx on 2011-09-12 01:09:11
...I don't like a 3 mile gauntlet with retarded characters and cutscenes at every checkpoint.

Careful, these are some of the same reasons I might cite if I were explaining why I found FFX to be a sub-par FF.  No need to defend X or attempt to convince me its awesome.  I think it is good, just not great and I think XIII sucks also - just don't get too confident in your opinions.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-12 01:28:05
X was not a literal gauntlet with CGI cutscenes at checkpoints.  You had space, you could go places and veer off course and more importantly, you could go back and later in the game there were hidden things to get.  XIII really was a literal gauntlet.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-12 01:42:49
FFX was linear as well, however you could backtrack.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-12 05:41:59
There are better rpgs out there nowadays than FF. I have long given up on those. If I want a good RPG I play Xenoblade nowadays. I hope they turn that into a series.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-12 13:07:33
Imo some people take the FF evolution a bit too personal. I'm not trying to act like a paragon saying this, but I stopped caring after FFIX.

I say: let people enjoy it if they want. It's not hurting me or anyone I know.
The previous generation is always gonna say what the next generation watch or listen to is crap anyway. The latest decades, In western society, many kids are formed by the pop culture of their time (really sad if you ask me). Kids listening to awful music, playing crappy games, watching sh*tty movies are a result of this, pop, sell out, money making industry. It's become more money loving that's for sure. Quantity in money outweighs quality in products.

Corporations, bands, or whatever, making it big in the market are prone to sell out at some point. When/if they do, and you don't like it, be glad they made something you liked in the first place. They weren't obliged to. Sure, it's sad they caved in and sold out, I agree, but I don't understand the hate it spawns in most cases. Spreading hate wont change the industry. Even if it did, somewhere down the line someone else will sell out again.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-12 15:17:15
I agree with gjoerulv. The older generations are always going to say that the newer generations games/music/movies/clothing/etc. are strawberries. It's a cycle, it won't ever stop.

And you know what I hate? I hate people (mostly my generation, maybe a little older) who repeatedly say Ocarina of Time and Final Fantasy VII are the best games of all time. Those games were made over 10 years ago, I think it's time to move on. And it's like they think those games didn't have any flaws. They weren't perfect, they had their flaws. Have you seen the N64 controller? That's a huge flaw right there. The controller layout was horrendous. In my honest opinion, Ocarina of Time was strawberries. I never liked it (Link to the Past was far superior but you never hear about that). FFVII isn't aging too well for me either. I'm not saying it was bad. It was a good game but people need to stop acting like it was perfect. It was far from perfect. I preferred FFVI over FFVII. But I also preferred FFXII over FFVI.

I keep hearing that people don't like FFXIII because it's different. So what? Games change. If games didn't change, we would still be playing Pitfall and Asteroids. Some change for the better (Fallout, Metroid) while some change for the worse (Legend of Zelda, Devil May Cry). Get over it.

/rant
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-12 15:27:44
Games do change, but they sometimes change for the better or worse (Last Story is infinitely better than 13).  Accepting FF13 means you deserve FF14 being crap.  And you deserve the 100 spin off cash ins.

If you didn't buy it they wouldn't keep churning it out.  The only ones laughing are Enix.  It isn't fair to draw a line under games 10 years ago and make a ridiculous excuse that "Today is different so the games are different"

If you bought a monitor in 2005 and 10 years later the LCD had gone to CRT, are you telling me you would embrace and welcome it as different and change?  No you'd say we had gone backward.  What makes a game series different?  I would wager it is nostalgia clouding your judgment.

Change for the worse is not innovation or clever.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2011-09-12 17:22:55
The idea that it's "change for the worse" is your opinion, not solid fact. Please try to bear that in mind to avoid people (justifiably) getting their backs up. Some people liked it, some people didn't. The fact is, the game is not a big piece of strawberries. It has plenty of positive aspects and a large number of people enjoyed it. The game is just completely overshadowed by superior entries in the series - and for good reason. They were totally epic.

Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-12 17:24:04
Change for the worse is not innovation or clever.

I can't see why anyone would disagree with this. Sometimes you step in the wrong direction. But if you don't try to walk forward you'll stay at the same spot. I think they did a (somewhat) honest attempt on creating something unique with 13. I can hardly imagine every single detail in the game was designed to earn cash, whit the developers evil grind $$ eyes overshadowing. Arguing with established fact to prove something that's ultimately opinion based doesn't serve one's case, no matter how "right" the view is.

Last story... Hmmm... Too bad I don't owe a wii. I'm not very impressed with Sakaguchi's work after he quit squeeny (FF10 included), so I'm not too exited. Uematsu still got it though. The Lost Odyssey soundtrack is godlike.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-12 17:42:35
The problem is it has been stepping backwards since FFX-2.

It has been 1 spin off after another, taking control way from the player, too many graphics and too little gameplay, poorer stories.  There is a reason it fell apart after X but it continues because people continue to accept it.

That is where my gripe is at. If FF13 was the first FF that reduced gameplay to second fiddle I would say "well it is 1 mistake"  but there is a deliberate trend towards churning out games as fast as possible because they know they will sell.  The series has become a victim of its own success.

Final Fantasy XIII-3?  Well you couldn't make it up.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-12 18:02:13
If you look at this from a company's viewpoint, it's better to rush games that will sell than to take their time and try to produce something everyone will like. If they make games that are rushed and people buy it, why would they change their tactics?
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-12 18:15:56
@DLPB
In my book, X-2 is way worse than XIII. I agree 13 is not the first step in the wrong direction, but we disagree where it started. In my opinion, it started with 8, but, also imo, 9 redeemed the series at that point. After that FF10 was another step in the wrong direction. X-2 was most definitely a step in the wrong direction. Not only did it make put the decent story X had story to death, it was awkward and embarrassing beyond words. The design reeked. I must admit however that the actual gameplay was good. FF11... Wrong. I would accepted it as a spin-off series.

After all this crap I had very low expectation for 12 and 13. 12 was good, imo, but to late to save the series, besides, it would be better of not being a FF. I don't feel like it's a FF.

See, all the above are my opinions. We agree it went bad at some point, and that the reason mostly is because of too wealthy developers getting sloppy and too full of their selves. Some kids today probably started with 13, thinks the game is awesome and the older games' just crap. I'm not saying all kids, I'm saying some kids.

I don't think it's possible to stop squeeny by simply not buying their games. They are too well established to simply let some disappointed fans ruin the money train. I do believe however, that if enough people voice their opinion they may consider making a good game (lol If they're still capable). Maybe then, people will stop buying crap, and the world will be utopia with good games, awesome music and supreme movies.  ;D
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: hian on 2011-09-12 23:23:35
The easiest way to demonstrate when a series is going in the "wrong" direction, is to compare the core elements of the older games, and see how they would have held up against the newer releases, had they been released today.

I doubt anyone but the biggest fanboys would go "FF7 is the best game ever, per todays standard", and also claim that they weren't biased at all. Everybody knows it's a dated game. That isn't the point, nor why people think FF13 is bad.

Backwards bias(sour grapes so to speak) is just as bad as "nostalgia bias". If FF6/7/8/9 had been released today(by that, I mean we imagine that it wasn't released in the original format), with the same story(minus writing errors, and more general plot polish like the newer games), and the same gameplay, but with the production values of todays games(FF13 level graphics, sound quality, voice-acting), I think it would still probably be consider one of the best jrpgs ever made. I seriously doubt people would consider FF13 to be even close.

That's what most people mean when they point to newer Final Fantasies as being crap. Their only redeeming quality is that they are of current generation quality, and riding partly on a tried and tested formula, and partly on the good repuation of previous games.
I.E They are good in being average and of this generation.

The thing that sets the earlier FF games appart(most of all FF7, even by todays standards), is the leap they took.
Not just in terms of graphics and sound, but by bringing with it all the experience and aspects that was good with the previous games as well, and adding unto the experience with extra interactive gameplay elements, and more content in general.

FF10,12,13, however, all tried to a certain degree to start anew. Change stuff around, and re-envision the franchise. This is always a risk. I agree that it can be good to try a route like that, but it should never be done just for the sake of doing so, which is what it seemed SE did.
The irony of it all is that, as far as I know, there was never a large outcry for renovation in the FF franchise prior to the time where they actually started changing stuff(FF10 - At least FF10 didn't completely sh*t itself like FF12 did).

In the end though,  there really is no excuse to cut away at both gameplay, and content, compared to games over 10 years older. The newer FF games are guilty of this, whether people like it or not, and that's the issue.

Another thing worth mentioning though - A really good game/movie/book doesn't need a sequal to tie it off - And making a sequal to tie of a game that didn't need a sequal as an after-thought, is even worse.
As far as I'm concerned, that was the main reason why the "Squaresoft FF" franchise didn't have sequals.

Good sequals are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequal in mind.
Sequals should never be released as after-thoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-13 02:39:02
The easiest way to demonstrate when a series is going in the "wrong" direction, is to compare the core elements of the older games, and see how they would have held up against the newer releases, had they been released today.

Backwards bias(sour grapes so to speak) is just as bad as "nostalgia bias". If FF6/7/8/9 had been released today(by that, I mean we imagine that it wasn't released in the original format), with the same story(minus writing errors, and more general plot polish like the newer games), and the same gameplay, but with the production values of todays games(FF13 level graphics, sound quality, voice-acting), I think it would still probably be consider one of the best jrpgs ever made. I seriously doubt people would consider FF13 to be even close.

I could agree to a certain extend, but then again who decides what the core elements are? Remember, FF was early on criticised for leaving it's roots. Also the later games are, after all, sequels to their predecessors. The experience from FF1 brought FF2 and so on. By this standard, FF1 may as well be the best. Imagine FF1 developed for the first time today: Give it some plot polish and production quality and voila! I think FF2 would be pretty different from FF1. If you polish them enough. No, I consider each game a part of that time. Even if you do it like this, you have to bring a great deal of imagination to the table, which tends to be biased. Your favs are your favs. I agree FF13 falls short in many ways, but I don't think we need those lenses to see it.

FF10,12,13, however, all tried to a certain degree to start anew. Change stuff around, and re-envision the franchise.

6 and 7 too. The steps just gets bigger for each entry. FF have always re-invented itself. It's the nature of FF.

In the end though,  there really is no excuse to cut away at both gameplay, and content, compared to games over 10 years older. The newer FF games are guilty of this, whether people like it or not, and that's the issue.

If some sh*tty aspects like sh*tty minigames are cut out, and not replaced by something else, I personally don't consider it a bad thing. A game should be judged on what it is, and/or what it strives to be, not what it never intended to be. Try to imagine what the developers want the gamers to experience.

Good sequals are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequal in mind.
Sequals should never be released as after-thoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.

I dunno, but I think 13 had several sequels in mind. Didn't the lead FF squeeny guy say it would continue for 10 years?
FF10 and FF7 were certainly not developed with a sequel in mind.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-13 12:08:44
Good sequels are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequel in mind.
Sequels should never be released as afterthoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.

 I have to disagree with you there. As you may have noticed FFVII has worked on a similar principal and as far as i am concerned it was pretty epic. I enjoyed pretty much almost everything of DoC and of Crisis Core. (Not to mention the movies which were awesome too ^^ )

Also you guys said something about how much time the company spends on a new title and the quality it gives to the game. I would like to point out the fact that FF versus XIII has been worked from Square for 6 years. So maybe just maybe while they work on Type-0 and FFXIII-2 too push them in market asap they take their time to make FF versusXIII so good that it will be the best come back of the company..Wouldn't you think so??
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-13 14:17:10
I agree with the other poster.  If you are making a game sequel because fans want you to it will always be a disaster and these sequels and prequels simply don't hold up well to VII.  They are designed with fanboyism in mind.

Full of retcons because VII is a complete game with hardly any loose ends. So we had to bring sep back (he was dead), we have to bring jenova back (she was gone), have to bring Hojo back (He was dead), have to bring Rufus back (he was blown to bits in his office and killed), have to mess with original story.

That is what Hollywood  does these days too.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-13 15:26:06
Well that's because sometimes you never really want something so good end so fast. All these sidegames and movies were appreciated by the crowd and that made them successful. When customers feel that someone listens to them and make some of their wishes come true they create income to the companies. A happy customer means a lot of money and fans.They will even make Sailor moon appear in the game if that satisfies the majority of the crowd. That's the way the cookie crumbles these days. Don't forget that when Square created the game they didn't even know themselves that it would be that good with the fans. Regardless of the sales that made the company was still bought though..
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-13 15:54:14
Rather than all these spin offs we could have had an epic game or 2 instead.  They chose money over art.

It isn't like it is a case or having them or not, it is a case of having a new original game or spin offs.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-13 16:33:39
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullshit
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-13 18:19:07
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullsh*t
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification

The only good news about this game would be that the entire division doing it BURNS DOWN. Including the responsible people.

Do you enjoy murder lol?
Are you suggesting someone else than yourself should decide what to enjoy, and what's good for you?  :o
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-13 18:40:31
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullshit
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification
So you're saying people can't like FFXIII or its sequel just because you don't?
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-13 18:52:54
No I think he is saying that the game is flawed on numerous counts even if you like it.  And I agree with that.
Saying that you should allow people to like the game is just silly because in the end, if games are not criticised there is no incentive to change for the better.

I am sorry to see so many that will buy XIII-2 and 3 and anything else simply because it is FF and that's where Enix is laughing.  It doesn't help.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-13 19:20:31
I'm not a really big fan of FF13 or FF13x-2. But you can't judge the game if you don't play it through. Maybe each person will find that little something that will make him like it. Also, even though they like it or not, what people say influences the market and the sales. For example, before releasing FF xiii type0 they have released demos and asked feedback for the game to improve it before giving it out to the market. If they released games and totally ignored the opinions of people then who would buy those games??
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-13 19:37:59
You can judge a game by reviews and youtube.  It is easy to do and it is the reason reviews exist.  So you can see if you want to buy it.  It is clear to everyone that Senix is ripping the piss out of people and blatantly profiting on its brand. 

All businesses do if they are allowed to.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-13 20:38:33
Saying that you should allow people to like the game is just silly because in the end, if games are not criticised there is no incentive to change for the better.

I agree that the game has flaws but I still like it. Besides, EVERY game has flaws.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: RecycleYourself on 2011-09-13 21:15:12
FF7 > every other FF, nuff said!
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: hian on 2011-09-13 23:00:19
I could agree to a certain extend, but then again who decides what the core elements are? Remember, FF was early on criticised for leaving it's roots. Also the later games are, after all, sequels to their predecessors. The experience from FF1 brought FF2 and so on. By this standard, FF1 may as well be the best. Imagine FF1 developed for the first time today: Give it some plot polish and production quality and voila! I think FF2 would be pretty different from FF1. If you polish them enough. No, I consider each game a part of that time. Even if you do it like this, you have to bring a great deal of imagination to the table, which tends to be biased. Your favs are your favs. I agree FF13 falls short in many ways, but I don't think we need those lenses to see it.

Who decides? Nobody. If I ask you what the core elements of a novel is, is that something somebody can redefine as they please at this point in time? Is it subjective? In a way, but at the same time, not at all it. Core elements by definition refers to the larger aspects that define the concept in question, which in this case is FF.
Nobody is saying the core elements of FF "should" be what they where back in the days - People are saying those core elements are better than the ones they use now. I happen to agree with that.

Your point is nitpicking on your part, and IMO, disingenuous when you consider the general nature of every FF game from 1 to 9(in part 10).
All these games, while making minor changes to the magic and battle system and slowly adding content, where in terms of the general formula, more or less exactly the same.

Sepparate battle and exploration screen, random encounters, world-map, full control of several party memember during battle,
and a "town/dungeon/world-map" exploration pattern broken up by minigame-like gameplay aspects, is basically a summary of the entire FF formula up to from 1-9.
Only with Tactics and 10 did they actually start to deviate from this.

If you consider this, FF1 and FF2 will not be much different no matter how much polish you give them. The only difference between these games lie in amount of content, battle tweaks and story.
Calling early FF games majorly different is as meaningless as saying Modern Warfare 1 and 2 are very different.
That's also where the biggest difference between the new and the old ones lie - While the old ones are sepparated by tweaks and amount of content, the new ones are sepparated from the old by simply removing large parts of the old gameplay elements, and content, and pushing more focus on presentation instead.

6 and 7 too. The steps just gets bigger for each entry. FF have always re-invented itself. It's the nature of FF.

People like to say this, but that isn't really true. The first time FF really reinvented itself is with the release of Tactics.
Before that, all they did was tweak the same old formula. People only blow this out of proportions because most people seemed to find it so amazing and original to have a series where each game was story- and setting-wise completely irrelevant to the next.

If some sh*tty aspects like sh*tty minigames are cut out, and not replaced by something else, I personally don't consider it a bad thing. A game should be judged on what it is, and/or what it strives to be, not what it never intended to be. Try to imagine what the developers want the gamers to experience.

That's fine, but and rpg is an rpg. FF13 has cut out of basically everything except for the battle-system and the presentation of the story. No matter how you twist or turn it, that is a step backwards in terms of production regardless of what type of art we're talking about.

And we're judging it on what it is - A Final Fantasy game, and rpg, a story-telling device and a piece of art, which is released in the wake of tons of other similar pieces. Trying to judge a game completely devoid of context isn't only probably impossible, but not a good thing because it would ruin any sense of standard, and hence any basis for judging something to begin with.

FF13, lacks large amounts of gameplay and content compared to earlier titles. That's a fact. Some might find those lacks to be a pluss. Most people don't. This is easily demonstrated. Maybe SE wants to produce interactive movies, with little to no gameplay. Maybe that's what they want us to experience. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to pay for that, or "play" it.

And to try to argue that such a piece is better, or a step in a good direction from a perspective where you take into acount things like genre, background, and what games are to begin with, just doesn't float.

I dunno, but I think 13 had several sequels in mind. Didn't the lead FF squeeny guy say it would continue for 10 years?
FF10 and FF7 were certainly not developed with a sequel in mind.

Maybe it was - maybe it wasn't. I doubt it was when it was on the drawboard - which is what makes the entire difference.

And, what's your point? Appart from the battle system, FF10-2 was a steaming pile of garbage IMO, and the same applies to every spin-off related to FF7. This just reiterates my point, that you shouldn't create spin-off, sequals or prequels to stories that weren't designed with that idea to begin with.

I have to disagree with you there. As you may have noticed FFVII has worked on a similar principal and as far as i am concerned it was pretty epic. I enjoyed pretty much almost everything of DoC and of Crisis Core. (Not to mention the movies which were awesome too ^^ )

As you're entitled to. I enjoyed the 90s show about  Sinbad the sailor, I still know that it was, in terms of quality, completely horrible.

People need to divorce the emotion "like", from the concept we call "quality". The two are not necessarily inter-related.

DoC was a mediocre/poor 3rd person shooter(compare it to any other high-ranking game in the genre), Crisis Core bastardized the original story of FF7, and AC was, except for the animation quality(which still completely breaks with the original vision of the art), as completely "B" in every sense of the term.

I though AC and CC was great fun too though. Same goes for FF13 - But seriously, taking into account the times for which each FF game was released, and the progression between each game, I have a very hard time taking seriously anyone who thinks FF13 is a step forward in the series in any way at all, except for in its presentation.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-13 23:30:44
FF7 > every other FF, nuff said!

Take your fanboyism somewhere else. It's one thing to state FF7 is better than any other FF and then post why, but you just blatantly posted it without any explanation.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-14 10:29:07
@hian
You said one way to see where a series goes wrong is to imagine it today and see where it starts to deviate from the core. Then I said you don't need to. You don't need those lenses to see it. FF13 is still worse than FF4 if you judge 'em by the time they're released. Am I'm disingenuous? What was my point? Don't you agree if you imagine enough, anything can be anything. I was not trying to correct you.

I would disagree with you if you state FF started to change with FF10. Again: FF have always re-invented itself, and you can't count spinoffs like FF tactics in the picture.

I'm not trying to defend FF13 in any way. If anything, I'm pointing out how bad of an FF it is.

Maybe it was - maybe it wasn't. I doubt it was when it was on the drawboard - which is what makes the entire difference.

And, what's your point? Appart from the battle system, FF10-2 was a steaming pile of garbage IMO, and the same applies to every spin-off related to FF7. This just reiterates my point, that you shouldn't create spin-off, sequals or prequels to stories that weren't designed with that idea to begin with.

I don't know If there was a plan for a sequel(s). All I'm saying is that what SE executives said about FF13 in the past, and all the other 13 releases, suggest they may have had one or more in mind.

Whats my point? I'm pointing out that you are right. Making a sequel that was not intended (almost) always falls short compared to the original.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-14 12:43:20
It is simple really.  Dialogue and story of FF13 are simple but convulted.  Illogical and also needed manuals for exposition.  That isn't a good thing it tells you it is bad.

NPC, towns, minigames, sidequests and exploration are crititical to jrpg, and they removed the vast bulk.  That isn't a good thing.

Whilst you are free to like that personally, that can never be a good thing in a genre which is based around it.  People buy jrpg generally because they expect jrpg.  They do not expect a game which has had its heart and soul ripped out to appeal to FPS generation.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-14 16:56:10
If you look at this from a company's viewpoint, it's better to rush games that will sell than to take their time and try to produce something everyone will like. If they make games that are rushed and people buy it, why would they change their tactics?

we're not the company so obviously we don't give a cheese about what is good for them.

Do you enjoy murder lol?
Are you suggesting someone else than yourself should decide what to enjoy, and what's good for you?  :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder
Also, way to completely miss the point. I'm saying just because I enjoy X doesn't mean it's GOOD or that I should be encouraged or left alone liking it. By your logic, I should be given the a-ok to enjoy torturing others. Oh and by the way. Yes, most of the things that fall in the category of "what is good for you" are decided by others. Haven't you heard of governments?

So you're saying people can't like FFXIII or its sequel just because you don't?

see above.


Just because you're going to accept BAD and YOU don't mind, doesn't mean it's actually a good thing. But that's never gonna get into people's heads. Because then there'd be something actually in there.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: ultima espio on 2011-09-14 17:04:27
Fun Fact - FF13-2 was in development before FF13 was released in the west.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-14 18:04:14
@KuugenTheFox
No, actually, that's your logic. You are trying to defend both absolute and relative viewpoints at the same time. You did it again in your last post. An absolute BAD can't be relatively good to anything.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Marc on 2011-09-14 22:02:33
It is simple really.  Dialogue and story of FF13 are simple but convulted.  Illogical and also needed manuals for exposition.  That isn't a good thing it tells you it is bad.

NPC, towns, minigames, sidequests and exploration are crititical to jrpg, and they removed the vast bulk.  That isn't a good thing.

Whilst you are free to like that personally, that can never be a good thing in a genre which is based around it.  People buy jrpg generally because they expect jrpg.  They do not expect a game which has had its heart and soul ripped out to appeal to FPS generation.

I think the difference between both opinions here is that some judge FFXIII solely as a jrpg while others judge it as a game.  I don't think FFXIII is a jrpg in the strictest sense of the genre.  It's more of an hybrid between action-rpgs and an interactive novel than anything else to me. 

Does that make it bad ?  Not to me because I never cared for towns or most minigames and I find old type jrpg's to feel stale nowadays.  I never spent time in gold saucer to "play" unless I had s specific goal in mind (gold chocobo, omnislash, etc).  Square themselves have stated that DQ will always stay their "classic" franchise with very little changes between titltes except presentation while FF is their testbed for new gameplay elements.  I've always played jrpgs for their story and battle systems so in that sense the evolution of the FF series is no problem to me as I enjoyed both of those elements in FF XIII.  I do have a problem with FF's stories not being epic or good but I found FF XIII to be a vast improvement story-wise compared to FFXII and FFX but still not on the same level as FF IV, VI, VII or IX.  That's totally subjective however.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-14 22:58:18
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

Less is not better.  You had an option of playing gold saucer games, now we have no choices.  It doesn't matter if you see that as good, it is a flaw, and that is no opinion.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Marc on 2011-09-15 02:24:26
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

Less is not better.  You had an option of playing gold saucer games, now we have no choices.  It doesn't matter if you see that as good, it is a flaw, and that is no opinion.

Unfortunately, that trend isn't about to reverse itself judging by overall trend in the games industry.  It's the same for the SNES purist who disliked the psx games and it'll get worse as each generations brings further and further changes so you'll be further and further alienated by future games.

As for myself, I like variety and I like changes.  Not all of them work out (gambits in ffxii is a good example of an horrible system) but I like trying out new things more than I "fear" the changes for a lack of a better word.  I also don't like forced gimmicky mini games or fetch quest in towns so not having them IS an improvement for me as most games do force them upon you at some point in the game even though the bulk of minigames are optional.  In FF7, there was the bike, snowboard, chocobo and sub minigames which you did HAVE to play to progress the story.  I wouldn't miss them one bit if they were gone and these were probably among the less annoying minigames on psx JRPG's.

However, I do realize I may be in the minority in the "old" ff fanbase and there's definitely nothing wrong with liking "tradtional" jrpgs as they're often great games and I'll still play them in the future if I feel the story will be good but I have a preference for the "refreshed" versions of those games, whatever genre you want to call them and I'll always stick up against anybody saying I'm wrong to do so.

FF7 feels dated now, and not just because of its graphics.  I still love it as you can see by my ranking on previous pages but there are now better RPG's than FF out there.

As for your comment about Mario Bros becoming a RPG, it actually happened and was a great game.  I suggest you look up Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario if you've never played them.  You'll be happy you did.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-15 19:22:29
Most, if not all, arguments in this thread are ultimately opinion based. Based on fact or no, they're still opinions. If a person knows what he/she likes, and why, it's gonna take a hell of an argument to change that person's mind on the subject. It won't happen if it's opinion vs opinion.


I could care less what genre a game is as long as it's good. If Dragon Age 3 turns out to be the a great 3rd person shooter, it would be odd, but I can't imagine me not liking it because it was supposed to be an action rpg. However, I would probably feel the same way (somewhat) as I do towards the newer FFs. A big wtf. Btw, diablo 4 will not be a 100% puzzle game.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2011-09-15 20:19:25
I could care less

Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-15 20:44:18
Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]

I love that guy.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-15 20:55:42
Most, if not all, arguments in this thread are ultimately opinion based. Based on fact or no, they're still opinions.

Being an opinion does not mean 1 argument isn't stronger than another.  No one has said you do not have a right to enjoy the game, what has been pointed out time and again is how flawed FFXIII is as a jrpg and a FF game.

Furthermore, I would not agree that bad dialogue, bad story, or bad game dynamics are "opinions" as they can be wholly demonstrated.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-15 21:54:42
Being an opinion does not mean 1 argument isn't stronger than another.  No one has said you do not have a right to enjoy the game, what has been pointed out time and again is how flawed FFXIII is as a jrpg and a FF game.

Furthermore, I would not agree that bad dialogue, bad story, or bad game dynamics are "opinions" as they can be wholly demonstrated.

Except that they are. Some people like the story and dynamics, and that is also an opinion. Stop believing your opinions are facts and you will be much better off.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-15 21:57:11
I don;t believe my opinions are facts, I believe that FFXIII is a bad game on many levels  (way above the norm when compared to VII-X) which can be demonstrated AS facts, even if one still likes the game.  That's a big difference.

"That is just your opinion" is to me, the biggest cop out in the history of debate.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: killuminati777 on 2011-09-15 22:19:01
And therein lies the problem.  You see no problem with a jrpg and FF becoming something totally different, and I do because that is why I love FF in the first place and why I buy FF games.

If mario Bros main game became a jrpg, I am assuming most of its fanbase would not be happy.

I totally agree with you. They shouldnt have made so many changes in the battle system. But i still think its an "ok" game, at least better than ffXII, but thats just my personal opinion. But then again nothing can or ever will beat ff7, its the blueprint in every way.

Cheers
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-15 22:22:54
I don;t believe my opinions are facts, I believe that FFXIII is a bad game on many levels  (way above the norm when compared to VII-X) which can be demonstrated AS facts, even if one still likes the game.  That's a big difference.

"That is just your opinion" is to me, the biggest cop out in the history of debate.

What a load of bullshit. This is not a 'The sky is blue' thing here. Everything you are comparing to other final fantasy games is subjective. Hence everything we are discussing here is an opinion not a fact. 'The story in FFXIII doesnt compare to FFVII' is an opinion not a fact. Just because something is a majority opinion does not make it fact. 'The gameplay in FFwhatever is superior' is opinion. FFXIII was released on PS3 - fact.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-15 22:28:30
So if I tell you FFXIII's graphics are sh*t, it is opinion?  Well I don't agree.  I think there are tons of things which make up any given argument that ARE fact, even if liking something is subjective. 

I think it is fact that FFXIII has many flaws when compared to other FF games.  Namely the use of 2 AI, much less minigame, much less side quest, less exploration, less NPC.

All of these can be demonstrated as fact.  Now you ask me if that is a good thing?  Well is it a good thing for a jrpg to throw away things that define its own genre?  No.  It isn't.

Then you have story, is it opinion that a story is bad when it makes very little logical sense, the dialogue is unrealistic and basic?  No.

There are tons of arguments here and some of them are not in any way shape or form an opinion.  Whether you like the game or not, does not come into it.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-15 22:38:15
And that is your opinion. I off course think you are wrong. That is the beauty of opinion.









ps. off course was intentional
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DarkFang on 2011-09-15 22:54:34
I like the game. My opinion. End of story.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-16 07:54:50
"Hurr durr you think the story is bad, so thats an opinion"
what are you, 12?

Just as there are standards and guidelines for art, even though it depends on the artist himself and his previous works ( OH YES you can see where I am going here ), so there are guidelines and standards for just about everything else including other media just as movies, music and yes, GAMES.

If by applying these standards and guidelines a result of "bad / worse than before" is achieved, that's not a ferning opinion, that's plain fact. Because you know, these guidelines are not just made by a single person. Every critic that holds his weight uses these same standards and guidelines and that's the exact reason the game has been declared bad. No amount of butthurt and "HURR DURR OPINIONS SO OPINIONS" is going to change that, no matter how many headstands you make.

The game is bad. You can enjoy bad things, nobody cares. That doesn't make them good.
It's the same as some people get high when they eat the strawberries of others. And yes, I did intend to make this a LITERAL comparsion.
Because those people are eating squareenixs strawberries. quite literally.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-16 08:31:40
 :-o  ;D

I can't fault that really....  I have never been against people enjoying what they enjoy as long as it doesn't affect me, but that's the problem here...  the more people who lap up XIII the less chance there is of this business saying "hang on a second, people aren't buying this rushed out money spinner anymore"

I have said it numerous times, but reduced content and quality isn't just some opinion or some dreamed up occurrence... it really is happening, and the excuses seem to be

"Well I liked it so what if you didn't"
"I didn't even like towns, NPC, minigames, miniquests, and all those things that actually define jrpg."
"It is innovation.  Times move on!"
"That is just your opinion"
"Graphics are important... and it takes time, so that's why the games didn't get towns etc"
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-16 15:34:25
All you people are comparing FFXIII to a classic jrpg. I think this is the main fault. As a jrpg the game fails miserably in almost every way. I liken FFXIII to a hybrid action rpg or perhaps an interactive movie. Comparing it like this makes it not so bad.

To sum up:

If you were expecting a classic jrpg: the game was a horrible waste of resources and should not have been made in the first place.

If you realize that FFXIII is not a classic jrpg: You may just enjoy the game for what it is, and maybe it does not 'fail'



Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-16 16:12:10
If you market your game as jrpg, then it should be classified as such, no matter how much better the game would be in a different genre
And don't come up to me now and say it's not being marketed as rpg. Because that'd be utterly ridiculous.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-16 16:19:07
I said classic jrpg. I would classify ffxiii as a hybrid action rpg, which is still an rpg. I define jrpg as turn based style like ff - ffx
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-16 16:25:39
You're grasping at straws here sl.
Let me give you a simple example
If the company that makes call of duty suddenly decides to mess up the next installment into the series so badly that it'll be panned by critics all over the place, you think people should just assume they shifted the target demographic and the genre of a long running game series just like that?
They tried to be innovative with ff13 and failed in the most spectacular way possible.
Most people associate Final Fantasy with the jrpg genre. Even FFX-2 was still a jrpg. And so was FF12, although that was dangerously on the edge. FF13 is just a complete fail to meet expectations.
The 'big' money is in the market where even the most casual player buys the game. See CoD example. The game is EXTREMELY easy, simple and pretty much dumbed down to the core principles of it's genre. The same applies to FF13 except that they messed up even the core principles by trying to move the game from being a jrpg to something else. The result is the hideous atrocity we have now.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: gjoerulv on 2011-09-16 17:08:56
Just going to leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
[/unrelated post]

He, he. Well, actually, I could care less. I think I care 5 out of 134.
/offtopic

FF13 is a rpg, that's for sure, but I never got the classic jrpg impression watching those trailers.
If I marketed a product as a car but it turned out to be a phone, should it be used as a car because it was marketed as a car? It would cause confusion and disappointment, but people would not try driving it on the highway.

lol if it's a fact that FF13 is bad, why are there so many diverged opinions?

Absolute facts are ultimately provable, by logic, science or other means. Criteria/guidelines for a "good" story are not absolutes. Most of them are dependables, like: what are you trying to tell, and whom are you telling it to? Depending on the level of terminology, no such thing as a good or bad story exist. One can't put a story under a magnifying glass and say, "LOOK! darr is good". Then, on this level, what do you mean by good?

There are stories that can capture and compel you to a state you like, thus stories may bring forth good (or bad), in a sense. How the story is experienced is highly dependable on the person experiencing it. The story itself is not experience. If it's a fact that a story can be 100% good by an ultimate standard, then that story couldn't possibly produce diverged opinions. In fact, it couldn't even get opinions, it would be known to all that it's a good story. No one would question it, like no one questions if a tree really is a car. Even the most experienced critics gives diverged opinions on about anything that can be reviewed.

Besides, FF13 have received good reviews overall. In other words, I wouldn't use that as an "evidence" against the game being good. Now someone will probably mention you can only trust certain critics. I think even if that's true, all of these would not agree 100%.

Again, I don't try to defend FF13 here. I think people feel the urge to voice their complaints; fair enough. I also believe some people honestly thinks it's a good game, without making excuses.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: sl1982 on 2011-09-16 17:15:03
Come on now. Even in your post you admit the ff franchise has been moving away from its jrpg roots. Maybe that is why it fails miserably when you compare it to one. Like i said, i wouldnt call ffxiii a jrpg. It has none of the elements required of one except for a storyline. Honestly i think the game would have been better received had it not been called final fantasy. Calling it that gives people expectations that the game could not meet. Yet i do think the game was decent in its own right.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-16 18:07:22
Quote
lol if it's a fact that FF13 is bad, why are there so many diverged opinions?

Unfortunately fanboyism is a powerful thing and forums do not represent overall opinion.  They are a small slice of the overall population (and the most vocal and fanatic of that population)

FF 13 is bad, because there are numerous facts about its design that are bad.  These aren't opinions.  Eventually you get to a point where you either accept that so many problems with a game is a bad thing overall, or you say "I loved it, so did many people, therefore it wasn't bad"  which is a fallacy.

Criticial thinking does not involve who "liked it", that has nothing to do with this argument.  Aside from graphics, FF13 reduced quality and quantity in almost every dept compared to VII-X. 

When the game designers come out and tell you they are not remaking VII because it would be too hard, you have to accept that the implication is that today's games are not as hard to make than the earlier ones.  Ergo less effort is being placed into them.  It is completely logical.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: msifreakster on 2011-09-16 18:19:59
I agree with sl. I think the game, in its own right, isn't bad (opinion), I liked it (opinion) but it didn't feel like an FF title to me (once again opinion).

Now in regards as to what is opinion and what isn't here is what works best for me to describe opinion/fact.
If the statement uses "I think" or "I feel", or either of those phrases is a suitable substitution, then that statement is an OPINION, no matter how many people think or feel the same.

A fact is something that has proof.  Many opinions =/= fact or proof
i.e. I think/feel FFXIII has crap story/batlle system etc =/= FFXIII has crap story/battle system etc. Every individual thinks/feels differently.
i.e. I think/feel FFXIII was an amazing game, better an any of the other FFs I have ever played =/= FFXIII was a great game, or the best FF.

It doesn't matter how many people, critics or fanbase feel that way. It is 100% opinion.
My opinion is, I like the game, i have genuinely had a fun time playing. To me it doesn't feel like a true FF title though. (Both of these statements are also opinion.)
Others feel the opposite. No matter how deeply you feel or think FFXIII is a crap game or just not living up to the FF name it doesn't mean its a fact.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Marc on 2011-09-16 20:10:07
FF 13 is bad, because there are numerous facts about its design that are bad.  These aren't opinions.  Eventually you get to a point where you either accept that so many problems with a game is a bad thing overall, or you say "I loved it, so did many people, therefore it wasn't bad"  which is a fallacy.

As SL and I have stated, as a jrpg, it is indeed a bad game.  As a game, it is not.  The story kept me wanting to know more and drew me in without being too simple (ie: save the world from the villain for the sake of it).  The graphical presentation was top notch.  The sound presentation was top notch.  The battle system (gameplay) was very well thought out and fun, (who here will really stay it's not a huge step up from ff xii's system ?).  The only stumbling block for me is replayability as there's no incentive to go back and "do it differently" or find easters eggs or anything like that.

I've just listed the 5 core elements most game review sites use to rate a game.  If I were to review it based on those metrics, it does very well in all of them except the last.  Not a 95%+ game but definitely a 85%+ game.  That means a good game.  Maybe not the game you expected as a jrpg as it is a poor jrpg but it's a good game nonetheless.  I don't think FF's will ever again be jrpg's.  Maybe FF15 for one last nostalgic call to the old fanbase à la ff9 but that's it.  Square has said numerous time they want to appeal to the western market more.  Apart from their existing fanbase (which is still sizeable, I admit), I don't see most of my friends ever playing FF's as they were.  Mass Effect, Deux Ex, GTA, Halo, Forza, etc, yes but not a jrpg.  They might play what FF is slowly becoming.  Or they might not and Square will only shoot themselves in the foot by alienating their core fanbase and not gaining a new one.  But I find that unlikely.  Only time will tell.

As for the rest of this thread, I'm out as I believe I stated what I wanted to say and I have nothing else constructive to add.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: Tenko Kuugen on 2011-09-17 17:09:15
I write stories for a living. If I'd produce something like the story of FF13, I'd have some really hungry months ahead of me
Your standards must be pretty weird if you like a setting like that. Especially the characterization was.. uhhh. LACKING to say this gently.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-18 11:52:22
Funniest fact of the day. Some people here said that FFXIII lacked mini games a signature of the Final Fantasy series and especially of FF7.It looks like that the upcoming FFXIII-2 is going to feature a place similar to the Gold Saucer containing riding chocobos and other games.  This is solid proof that the gaming world is like fashion. you take something from 20 years ago and make it popular again =P old time classics, baby!! xD
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: DLPB on 2011-09-18 20:42:03
Given how Squenix has been in recent years, coupled with the sheer number of cash ins (and that is what this is), it would take a huge leap of faith to assume this game is going to be any good.

Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: kicker on 2011-09-18 21:26:55
thumbs up to that i guess.
Title: Re: FFXIII?
Post by: hian on 2011-09-18 21:52:10
@hian
You said one way to see where a series goes wrong is to imagine it today and see where it starts to deviate from the core. Then I said you don't need to. You don't need those lenses to see it. FF13 is still worse than FF4 if you judge 'em by the time they're released. Am I'm disingenuous? What was my point? Don't you agree if you imagine enough, anything can be anything. I was not trying to correct you.

Ah ok. I just misunderstood you then. I thought it looked more like you were arguing the other way around.

I'm not sure I agree totally on FF4 being a better game in general, by todays standards, compared to 13 though.

The thing most people are apt to forget, is that if you played the original FF's in their original forms, their writing was generally strawberries(sorry to say).
Most people tend to lean on gameplay and story when they argue that older games were better, but even if thematically speaking FF4 was pretty good, like most nes/snes games, the dialogue which carried the story wasn't fleshed out in any way to make the characters and story truly alive, by any other media standard(books, movies etc).
After all, there was no tradition for quality writing in games back then(All your base are belong to us)
Older FF games required the player to get much more involved creatively to make the game come alive. Newer games, with their large amounts of dialogue, graphics and sound, don't need that.
Most people forget this though, because when we replay the old FF games, we still play off of the experience we got when we got creative with the games the first time.

The writing of FF games wasn't properly fleshed out until FF6 - Which leaves gameplay - And in terms of gameplay and content, it's still a Snes game, so it leaves a lot to be desired by todays standard.

This is the reason why I don't accept the argument that FF13 is an alround bad game - It isn't. It's an ok/good game. It's just a large step backwards as an FF-game in all departments except presentation.

I would disagree with you if you state FF started to change with FF10. Again: FF have always re-invented itself, and you can't count spinoffs like FF tactics in the picture.

Care to state why? I provided pretty good examples of how little change actually happens in FF games up until 10, in terms of actual gameplay, pace, and build. As I said, the change is usually limited to battle-mechanics, magic-mechanics and the setting.

Why can't I count Tactics though? Tactics is an excellent example of what "reimagining" actually means. FF Tactics is a reimagining because it is totally different. To refer to FF4 as compared to FF3, as a "reimagining" is a complete abuse of the term.

In any case, I agree with the rest. It just seemed to me, by your post, that you were arguing the other way around.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for all the opinion vs fact talk:

Yeah, all media, and standard of judgement is subjective at the end of the day. We all know this. It's beside the point.

Nobody here seems to actually be saying that FF13 is objectively a bad game in some absurd universal sense.

People are simply pointing out, that by the standards of earlier titles, and by the standard used when people judged those titles to be quality games, FF13 is not good.

Yes, the standards of video-gaming are arbitrarily set, but they are set all the same.
If you don't agree with them, good for you, but that doesn't really make any difference. For instance, I have my beef with the standard from which most people judge fighting games, but I know I'm a minority in that respect, and take that into account when raising my opinion.

When I say "I think Battle Arena Toshinded 3 is the best fighter ever", I know that isn't the case by the standards that most people judge fighters by - So, if somebody points out that Street Fighter 3 Alpha has better balance, I have to agree, because it's true.

Similarly, the point remains that FF13 us step backwards in terms of content, and story. That is not an opinion.
Thinking that it is, is as inane as thinking that Mondo in BAT3 is a fair and balanced character.

I also enjoyed FF13 to a certain degree - I'd have enjoyed it more, if it had been longer, had more exploration, a deeper combat-system, more minigames/interactive parts, cities, more side-quests of varied nature, and a more unique story.
This is sad to me, because I know SE could have done that if they had wanted to, and cared less about quick bucks, and more about creating quality games.

Consider if FF7 had been released(in the wake of a game like FF6), with Vagrant Story(top notch for PSX era) graphics, 20(+/-) hour completely linear gameplay, no exploration, no minigames, and a story which was more or less a complete revamp of an earlier game -
What would people say?
That is basically what FF13 is.