Author Topic: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W07)  (Read 458972 times)

Seraphim87

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #325 on: 2014-09-12 01:33:59 »
http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=15527.0

Btw Mr. DLPB, any thoughts on the sound effects for the game?  I got a topic going on about issues about that and you seem to be the resident expert. :)

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #326 on: 2014-09-12 07:33:19 »
Nah, I don't know too much about the sfx side of things.  It is pretty eacy to program new ones in, but making them is another matter.  Maybe there is a way to force FF8 to play the effects using an emulator (the effects are not stream data, they are created at runtime using sound chip in original PSX), and then record them using windows "What you hear" or the emulator's wave saver?  If I was gonna do it I'd be first looking into ways of recording the original stereo versions from PSX.

Problem is, I think the format for FF8 PC has to be crap codec(?)
« Last Edit: 2014-09-12 09:06:45 by DLPB »

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #327 on: 2014-09-12 09:23:19 »
Eh, I'd suggest if the problem is FF8PC isn't applying effects (chorus, reverb, ...) that the PSX did, the 'easiest' solution would be to override the sound output and just add the effects back in. OpenAL-soft supports most useful effects now, so you'd be able to add the effects back in without necessarily having to re-record and distribute thousands of sfx; and if the effects data the PSX was using is still in the PC version (plausible, at least!) you'd be able to use that as-is. Plus it'd be a useful starting point for adding in better quality playback further down the line.

That said, I'm afraid I don't have a great deal of interest in doing that - I don't even have FF8 installed at the moment - so unless someone else is interested in doing the necessary hacking it's not going to happen.

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #328 on: 2014-09-12 10:06:10 »
No, the problem is that ff8 pc has poor sound effect bank (liek Curaga sound effect etc).. bad codec used and I think also mono (PSX is stereo).  Vastly inferior to the PSX equivalents.  These effects, as far as I know, do not exist already recorded for us to use.  If they aren't, they would have to be recorded from psx or from psx emulator (or the wave saved etc).  I do remember a long time ago that I used a gameshark thing and some sort of bug happened that made ff7 sound effects play one after another.

The PSX does not have any effects you can rip, it makes the effects at runtime.

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #329 on: 2014-09-12 10:22:17 »
You're saying the PSX is generating all the SFX data at runtime? It's not just applying hardware effects over preset wave data? That would surprise me.

Also regarding mono/stereo - normally that's handled through panning a mono effect appropriately in games; it's usually only music that's actually recorded in stereo. Is the PC version not applying pan commands properly or something?

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #330 on: 2014-09-12 11:03:03 »
Yeah, the PSX generates the sounds (I think ff7 it is effects.dat).  There is no streamed audio for the effects for FF7/8.  All you'll find is a small piece of data telling the PSX how to make the sounds.  The PC version is streamed data and is mono...  the PSX uses full stereo for sound effects. 

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #331 on: 2014-09-12 11:16:07 »
Right, but the field script at least has panning data as part of the sound opcodes, so while the source data is mono - which is pretty normal for games, a single sound effect pretty much is mono by definition - it should be outputting each individual effect in stereo depending on the pan.

My question was, does the battle system not do this at all, or is the PC version just ignoring all the panning?

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #332 on: 2014-09-12 13:16:17 »
The problem with PC version is it's impossible to make a mono stream stereo...  and definitely not by panning.  The PSX literally has different sounds in each channel.  Even if PC does deploy panning it isn't going to make it sound any different.

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #333 on: 2014-09-12 13:33:08 »
The above post stands, since mono can't be made stereo...

However, I just double checked with Aali and he says the PSX isn't capable of generating sounds like effects... and that it's based on PCM.  If that's true, I have no idea where the data is in PSX versions.  I had a good check a while ago and so did others I know.. 

I certainly didn't find any extractor or anyone  who had extracted data of that kind from ff7/8 (All I could extract were the instruments used for background music and choir for One Winged Angel).

And I'm sure someone else told me it wasn't done with streamed data.
« Last Edit: 2014-09-12 13:40:40 by DLPB »

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #334 on: 2014-09-12 13:54:37 »
Sure, it's possible to have stereo sound effects, but normally you'd only do that for background/ambient SFX. For sounds like a hit / slash / explosion / scream, they're generally mono in games - because it's a single sound coming from a single location! - and set the pan according to where the sound source is on the screen. That's usually preferable to making a stereo sound effect that always has the explosion sound coming more from the left than the right - even when the explosion is actually on the right hand side of the screen due to the current camera position.

That said I'm talking generally rather than FF8 specifically. If all of FF8's sound effects are stereo, then obviously it's possible they could have implemented it that way. Frankly it would be preferable if [the majority of them] were mono with pan, though, because that actually works better for immersion.

(FF7 does that: if you look at the PC sound effects, the majority are mono - which is fine, because they'll be positioned using a pan factor, hopefully at least - but there are a few stereo ones, which makes more sense for background-style effects, or cut-scene style effects incorporating multiple sounds, that aren't intended to be located at a single position.)


I'm not surprised FF8 uses PCM - SNES games tended to use generated effects because ROM space was at a premium, that's not so much the case on PSX games that had CDs available...

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #335 on: 2014-09-12 15:04:08 »
FF7 PC are mono to save space.  The PSX definitely uses a lot of stereo effects for Cure etc.  I know because I've recorded them and listened to them, as well as looked at their wave forms in an editor. I also compared it to the PC version, which had made that effect mono.

If Aali is right, it's possible they have simply got a few samples and are using in much the same way as the background music.  If that is the case, we are still knackered, since that means there is still no easily rippable full audio stream for each effect.

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #336 on: 2014-09-12 15:13:12 »
If you've recorded the game output from an actual PSX (or an emulator) that doesn't really show that the source sound effects were stereo! The game output will be in stereo, but it could easily be comprised of multiple mono sound effects that have been appropriately panned and mixed into a stereo output (which again - is what most games do!)

...of course that also doesn't show that they haven't used stereo sound effects, but you can't say one way or the other just by listening to the final mixed output.

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #337 on: 2014-09-12 15:22:26 »
It still wouldn't help us... if they mixed in a load of different sounds to make 1 effect (liek cure), we would have a nightmare on our hands to recreate that full soundf effect.  But I don't think that's how it's being done.

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #338 on: 2014-09-12 15:36:52 »
It would help us in that all the sound effects involved would probably exist on the PC; if they were higher quality on the PSX, it would theoretically be possible to extract and use those instead; and it would just be a case of implementing the same playback effects on the PC that the PSX had, which would be easy to do on the output side if the necessary data was still in the PC version (presumably currently being ignored). The point is you wouldn't need to recreate the final output in advance, you'd just make the PC do the same thing the PSX does.

I mean, to prove things one way or the other you'd need to actually extract a few sound effects from the PSX version - but I rather expect that the porting process was along the lines of:

-Right, let's copy all those sound effects over without making any significant changes if we can avoid it
-(If required), right, let's compress them all
-What, the PSX applies hardware reverb and other sound effects? Can't be bothered, let's just ignore that whenever we're supposed to be applying it.

...which would mean there's at least a chance all the necessary data is there and was just never implemented on the PC side.

(That said, IIRC the PC release did apply EAX effects if you had a compatible Creative card, so they didn't entirely ignore the question of sound processing, but I don't believe that was on a per-sound-effect basis.)

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #339 on: 2014-09-12 15:46:53 »
What I am saying is the following:

a.  The PSX audio is vastly superior.  It sounds superior and it is clearly higher quality because the PC versions use a low quality encoding and are mono.

b. The psx sound effects are very likely stereo as their output, regardless of how it is achieved.  There are distinct sounds in each channel so it is not a case of standard panning.

c.  I don't think you are going to find these sound effects as normal stream files on the PSX discs.  I don't think the data exists there in that fashion (especially since to achieve this would have meant a very large amount of disc space). If Aali is right and the psx cannot create sounds at runtime, then it's likely being done by using available samples (like a midi does).
« Last Edit: 2014-09-12 16:00:13 by DLPB »

ficedula

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #340 on: 2014-09-12 19:03:38 »
What I am saying is the following:

a.  The PSX audio is vastly superior.  It sounds superior and it is clearly higher quality because the PC versions use a low quality encoding and are mono.

b. The psx sound effects are very likely stereo as their output, regardless of how it is achieved.  There are distinct sounds in each channel so it is not a case of standard panning.

c.  I don't think you are going to find these sound effects as normal stream files on the PSX discs.  I don't think the data exists there in that fashion (especially since to achieve this would have meant a very large amount of disc space). If Aali is right and the psx cannot create sounds at runtime, then it's likely being done by using available samples (like a midi does).

a: OK, I don't have the PSX version, so if that's higher quality, that's entirely plausible. Although I thought the PSX SPU only accepted compressed data so there was no way it had clean data? - but I guess it could be compressed better than the PC version for some reason.
b: Distinct sounds in each channel may mean a stereo source or it means multiple sounds being individually panned. IIRC, the PSX had a good few hardware sound channels (24, IIRC) so that would be kind of expected. There's no way of telling in isolation which approach was used.
c: Uh, you mean by playing multiple mono sound effects with various pans and effects (reverb, freq shift, chorus)? Which is how midi and similarly designed music systems work?

Seraphim87

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #341 on: 2014-09-13 20:32:49 »
Imagine the game with the Roses and Wine mod AND the original SFX.... the ULTIMATE Final Fantasy 8 Experience.

It'd be so... perfect.  :mrgreen:

Shard

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #342 on: 2014-09-13 23:08:56 »
The encoding used for FF8 is 4-bit ADPCM, which you'd think is bad, but I've been listening to a lot of male and female voice samples from the voiceover project side by side (original recording and ADPCM conversion) and hardly any of them have any compression artifacts. The ones that do are barely noticeable, and I have really good ears.

https://www.mediafire.com/?9brbn6d7khkkba6

This is a test sound I generated. The first set of tones is uncompressed (except I saved the whole thing as ogg). The second set is compressed to ADPCM. The third set is the difference in samples between the first two (how "far away" the ADPCM encoding is from the original sound, in other words, how much data is lost during compression). The data loss at higher frequencies is pretty major, but still sounds fine.

Don't let FF8's crappy compression put you off from doing a sfx update project. You can still get really nice sounding, high quality sounds into the game to replace the mostly bland sound library the game comes with.

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #343 on: 2014-09-13 23:24:07 »
Your ears may be good but your equipment clearly is not.  With decent equipment it is impossible to not hear the difference. Not to mention the stereo v mono.

It will sound okay...   Maybe Aali knows a way to get the game playing more than just adpcm
« Last Edit: 2014-09-14 11:48:43 by DLPB »

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #344 on: 2014-09-14 21:42:06 »
Okay I've just recorded "Cure" from psx using emulator, and it is definitely stereo (and better quality than PC). Both channels contain different data. 

I checked FF7's files on the psx disc and there doesn't seem to be any files there that could account for the effects (if they were all there as streamed data).  The sound folder contains 3 main files, instr.all, instr2.all and effect.all.

Instr and instr2  are both known... they contain the bgm instruments and the one winged angel choir.  Imho, effect.all contains a lot of small samples (or some data) that are used to construct the sound effects.  I don't know how to go about decoding the file though.  I spoke to Snailrush, and he has no idea what the file is about either.

This is some info:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=6571.0
« Last Edit: 2014-09-15 19:42:44 by DLPB »

Seraphim87

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #345 on: 2014-09-15 02:12:46 »
I'm no techie expert but fwiw I loaded up FF8 on my old PS1.  The Gunblade sound effect does sound a bit sharper than the PC Steam version.

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #346 on: 2014-09-15 13:53:41 »
https://mega.co.nz/#!Y5NXACSL!V-zL7hECEK40cmgGE0JjJ53HZ--7A5vKqFViJEpOupc

Megalixir PSX.

That's so much better than the PC version, it hurts.  You can't appreciate the difference as much until you have a decent system.  But it's not even "slightly" better, it's miles better.
« Last Edit: 2014-09-15 14:50:37 by DLPB »

Hellbringer616

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #347 on: 2014-09-15 15:58:51 »
https://mega.co.nz/#!Y5NXACSL!V-zL7hECEK40cmgGE0JjJ53HZ--7A5vKqFViJEpOupc

Megalixir PSX.

That's so much better than the PC version, it hurts.  You can't appreciate the difference as much until you have a decent system.  But it's not even "slightly" better, it's miles better.

Does FF7 suffer from this too? Some effects seem fine, others seem a bit.. tinny, I always assumed it was my sound card trying to over compensate or something, Now i'm not so sure

DLPB

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #348 on: 2014-09-15 18:54:53 »
You mean does ff8?  That above is from FF7.  And yes, both games are totally inferior to PSX, largely due to the codec.
« Last Edit: 2014-09-16 00:03:36 by DLPB »

Seraphim87

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Re: [FF8PC-2000/Steam] Roses and Wine (W03b FINAL)
« Reply #349 on: 2014-09-16 00:26:59 »
So... is a solution for the SFX possible with FF8? (or FF7 for that matter)

I'm still kinda confused on all the tech-talk, I can follow it a lil' bit but not entirely certain.