Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.5)  (Read 1866716 times)

lappers84

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #275 on: 2014-07-30 09:15:52 »
So I realised that I haven't fought the battle square in a while and decided to go for that, but the moment I start - it begins to load with the music, but black screen - when I minimize the game window - a pop up appears saying unknown exception, then proceeds to stop working.

Any ideas??

Loseless

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #276 on: 2014-07-30 09:44:01 »
IS it just me or is it taking me a really long time to level up my limit breaks?

I'm at Cosmo and I JUST got Blade Beam for Cloud.

No, but since the enemies take longer to kill its natural that limits will come later. I got my lvl 2 limits not long before that, so don't worry.


Probably not, but Rising Suns are available en-masse in a pack of 40 (part of Edge's Throwing Set, one of the randomly selected Mystery Prizes available from Battle Square in place of W-Summon) so it's no biggie. I'll maybe give Diamond something more interesting as a Steal/Drop though.

Update got delayed slightly because I figured out a way to merge both flevels and make music behaviour an in-game option. That cuts down on the amount of work/risk supporting two flevels and simplifies things going into a 7H version. As far as it goes, this update is more or less done but I was trying to test battles to make tweaks; it's not been easy, I need to set some time aside and play the mod start to finish to get a proper team that can give proper feedback. For now though, enemies were pushed up from the Temple onwards; a healthy level and speed increase with some defence, HP, and attack tweaks. But let me know if the standard enemy formations are too much to handle (damage-wise) and/or if bosses are unmanageable.

I also went ahead and changed Ultimate Weapons too; I've got a plan for them going into NG+ but at the moment they're being squared against the other high level weapons. For the most part, characters each have a weapon that:

-) Vit/Spr: +50
-) Mag: +30
-) Dex/Luck +50 (Ultimate Weapons)

This'll likely be changed soon, but for now it seems to have a nice balance. The Luck boost might be broken a bit on Cait Sith, though (if Luck Plus is used).

If I understand correctly, you'll first play through the mod before releasing it? That may take a while. And about the exp, have you changed the values so we won't level as fast?
« Last Edit: 2014-07-30 09:46:10 by Loseless »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #277 on: 2014-07-30 14:08:03 »
Sorry if the question has already been asked but : is this mod compatible with bootleg / reunion ?

I'm not so sure. Try installing the NT Mod to a data folder, and then copy-pasting these files into the relevant folders inside the Bootleg/Reunion modded data folder:
scene.bin
kernel + kernel2
flevel.lgp
char.lgp (ignore if using field model mods)
battle.lgp (will overwrite battle models but is required due to new monsters)

Can't guarantee that'll work; but the NT Mod is being included with Bootleg's next release as I understand it.

So I realised that I haven't fought the battle square in a while and decided to go for that, but the moment I start - it begins to load with the music, but black screen - when I minimize the game window - a pop up appears saying unknown exception, then proceeds to stop working.

Any ideas??

There could be two reasons. First, it might be related to a problem I found with the Battle Square which didn't handle different party leaders correctly. Were you fighting in the Battle Square from Disc 3 with a different party leader? Second reason could be a bad enemy encounter, as in the game is trying to load an enemy formation which doesn't exist anymore; let me know where you were in the game story-wise when you went to fight in the Battle Square (the encounters change depending on where you are in the game).

If I understand correctly, you'll first play through the mod before releasing it? That may take a while. And about the exp, have you changed the values so we won't level as fast?

I'm releasing the update today (about to post the links) but to get things tight like Midgar I'd need to put a new team together and play through the game again. I'll be doing that for the v1.2 release which is adding in new features and preparing for the NG+ expansion; it'd be a good idea if I had a team ready to test the NG+, because I want the fights for that to be quite hard and keep the curve going. For now, I'm going to be working on putting 1.2 together and then I'll start a test-play of it, adding more stuff as I go.

paralleluniverse

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #278 on: 2014-07-30 15:07:45 »
yay!! whats included in this update?

lappers84

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #279 on: 2014-07-30 15:10:00 »
Oh yeah jut realised I had Cid as my party leader - thanks.  Will check this again............And yeah it works now

Loseless

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #280 on: 2014-07-30 15:48:24 »


I'm releasing the update today (about to post the links) but to get things tight like Midgar I'd need to put a new team together and play through the game again. I'll be doing that for the v1.2 release which is adding in new features and preparing for the NG+ expansion; it'd be a good idea if I had a team ready to test the NG+, because I want the fights for that to be quite hard and keep the curve going. For now, I'm going to be working on putting 1.2 together and then I'll start a test-play of it, adding more stuff as I go.

I'm finishing disc 2 right now. Just fooling around with chocobos first. I can help test the new version or the NG+. Since I'll need to start a new game for the guide, might as well wait for the 1.2 version.

I think you've missed the question, but is there any change to the exp earn from battles? Will characters still level up as easily?

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #281 on: 2014-07-30 16:32:26 »
[...] the NT Mod is being included with Bootleg's next release as I understand it. [...]

I can confirm.

paralleluniverse

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #282 on: 2014-07-30 19:07:05 »
Found a glitch with Tifa being the leader  :D sorry for language. Tifa becomes permanently locked when you try to leave the last place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3JRL1nynqA

Thank you I also found the destruct materia in the building, I thought id already looked.
« Last Edit: 2014-07-30 19:08:56 by paralleluniverse »

lappers84

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #283 on: 2014-07-30 20:36:57 »
Forgot to ask, but have I missed morph materia - haven't been able to find it (I'm presuming it's needed to get a gold chocobo)

Loseless

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #284 on: 2014-07-30 22:29:29 »
Well, finished disc 2, and here's the feedback:

There was a huge drop in difficulty from disc 1. Bosses remain interesting and challenging. But random fights weren't even menacing. The disc flew like a breeze. Cloud ended the disc at level 76. Ultimate Weapon really needs more HP. Big Brawl and Meteor Rain nearly killed it. I had to use and Elixir on it to keep stealing items... It disappointed me. Diamond also could use more firepower, as it was the easiest boss of the second disc.

As for disc 3 (which is nearly finished), I must admit I felt like not having enough firepower against the enemies at Northern Crater. They didn't pose much of a challenge, but took a lot to kill. Magic lost its uses and physical hits do more damage, more easily. Only defensive and support spells matter. Elemental materia only waste space and HP. Since my party is at high 70s, I think removing Contain, Ultima and Pandora's Box from their usual locations really hurt the game, as lvl 3 elemental spells don't cut it anymore. Magic Breath was also powered down to the point where its useless. And by the time we get these materia we won't have anyone to use them anymore (excpet for the some few bosses).

I know this is an old debate, but if an effective Quake 3 deals 3500 with 40+ Mag from accessory and armor, while a regular attack does 3000 without Str boosting, I'll stay with the attack. I reckon this is due to level modifier for damage affection attack damage more than magic damage.

I cleared three of the materia caves, don't have Morph and still don't know where to get Contain, Ultima, Full Cure, Final Attack, Morph, W-Item, W-Magic, W-Summon, Counterattack, Double Attack, Shield, Long Range and Added Cut. Did I miss something?


Final thoughts: the mod is surprisingly well done. Even Aeris feels alive, although maybe a little cheery. The bosses were much more interesting and worthwhile. The equipment was also modified interestingly.

Things I disliked:
- Some materia being so difficult and time consuming to get that I ended up just giving up on them;
- I didn't managed to get a single ultimate weapon or lvl 4 limit for the same reason: too time consuming;
- Summons are even less useful than in the original game;
- I still don't have seven enemy skills. I know some of them are carried by extra bosses and stuff, but if I have to wait all that time to get them, what will the be useful for? Couldn't they have been put in some monsters along the game? Maybe and the Sunken Plane or Northern Crater? Its not like Big Guard or Angel Whisper are gonna break the experience after the weapons are already beaten.

Things I hated:
- Leveling up every four or five fights;
- Too many materia being out of place;
- Some high end armor and accessories having been completely changed or moved. Basically I used only two armors the entire game: Endicoat and Wizard Bangle.

Things I liked:
- Being able to skip many boring scenes;
- Additional bosses and fights;
- Better and more challenging boss fights overall;
- Interesting equipment set up options;
- Being able to have Aeris after disc 1;
- The new save points (only wish there were some more at Northen Crater);
- The option to re-fight old bosses.


Thats all I can't think of. I'll now start playing the new version. I'm eager to see the new modifications.
« Last Edit: 2014-07-30 22:39:05 by Loseless »

LetCreativityPlay

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #285 on: 2014-07-30 22:47:06 »

I cleared three of the materia caves, don't have Morph and still don't know where to get Contain, Ultima, Full Cure, Final Attack, Morph, W-Item, W-Magic, W-Summon, Counterattack, Double Attack, Shield, Long Range and Added Cut. Did I miss something?



Hey, you have some good points!! Most of the materia you listed is obtained from defeating the 10 extra bosses you need to unlock at the arena. You need to bring ingredients to an NPC to unlock these bosses which som are obtained by doing the extra sidequests (more bosses.)  Morph is obtained by doing the Kalm traveler sidequest, unlessed Sega changed it.

LetCreativityPlay

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #286 on: 2014-07-30 22:49:05 »
Hey, you have some good points!! Most of the materia you listed is obtained from defeating the 10 extra bosses you need to unlock at the arena. You need to bring ingredients to an NPC to unlock these bosses which som are obtained by doing the extra sidequests (more bosses.)  Morph is obtained by doing the Kalm traveler sidequest, unlessed Sega changed it. All this neat stuff is unlocked one you reach the bottom of the north cave.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #287 on: 2014-07-30 23:25:06 »
Hey Sega Chief,
can you make for the next release a list for testers. Divide the game in different stages or chapters for it, then note for yourself your expected level, damage output (physical and magical) and maybe the tactical strategy for it. The testers should place their level for the stages in the list and if they think it's to easy or to hard, the damage output they have and if the battles are too long or too short.
You can balance the game this way a bit easier, but make sure that they should do only less grinding (sidequest are an exception).

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #288 on: 2014-07-30 23:39:27 »
Found a glitch with Tifa being the leader  :D sorry for language. Tifa becomes permanently locked when you try to leave the last place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3JRL1nynqA

Looks like that'll need fixed. I remember doing something there because the guy was throwing down the rope-ladder three times instead of once. It's likely that fix has caused this more serious issue to happen, but I'll get it sorted.

Forgot to ask, but have I missed morph materia - haven't been able to find it (I'm presuming it's needed to get a gold chocobo)

I replaced the EXP Plus in the garden next to Aeris' house with Morph; and to cover players who are past this point and already picked it up, I changed the variable check so it should be there even if the Materia was picked up before. I should've mentioned that in the notes. There's also a NPC on the under-carriage of the Highwind (not sure what the technical name for that part of the ship is, it's the part the team parachute jumps from) who can fix the sidequest problem for people who were using the Regular Battle Music flevel. It resets all the sidequest variables so they can be fought again.

Well, finished disc 2, and here's the feedback:

There was a huge drop in difficulty from disc 1. Bosses remain interesting and challenging. But random fights weren't even menacing. The disc flew like a breeze. Cloud ended the disc at level 76. Ultimate Weapon really needs more HP. Big Brawl and Meteor Rain nearly killed it. I had to use and Elixir on it to keep stealing items... It disappointed me. Diamond also could use more firepower, as it was the easiest boss of the second disc.

As for disc 3 (which is nearly finished), I must admit I felt like not having enough firepower against the enemies at Northern Crater. They didn't pose much of a challenge, but took a lot to kill. Magic lost its uses and physical hits do more damage, more easily. Only defensive and support spells matter. Elemental materia only waste space and HP. Since my party is at high 70s, I think removing Contain, Ultima and Pandora's Box from their usual locations really hurt the game, as lvl 3 elemental spells don't cut it anymore. Magic Breath was also powered down to the point where its useless. And by the time we get these materia we won't have anyone to use them anymore (excpet for the some few bosses).

I know this is an old debate, but if an effective Quake 3 deals 3500 with 40+ Mag from accessory and armor, while a regular attack does 3000 without Str boosting, I'll stay with the attack. I reckon this is due to level modifier for damage affection attack damage more than magic damage.

I cleared three of the materia caves, don't have Morph and still don't know where to get Contain, Ultima, Full Cure, Final Attack, Morph, W-Item, W-Magic, W-Summon, Counterattack, Double Attack, Shield, Long Range and Added Cut. Did I miss something?


Final thoughts: the mod is surprisingly well done. Even Aeris feels alive, although maybe a little cheery. The bosses were much more interesting and worthwhile. The equipment was also modified interestingly.

Things I disliked:
- Some materia being so difficult and time consuming to get that I ended up just giving up on them;
- I didn't managed to get a single ultimate weapon or lvl 4 limit for the same reason: too time consuming;
- Summons are even less useful than in the original game;
- I still don't have seven enemy skills. I know some of them are carried by extra bosses and stuff, but if I have to wait all that time to get them, what will the be useful for? Couldn't they have been put in some monsters along the game? Maybe and the Sunken Plane or Northern Crater? Its not like Big Guard or Angel Whisper are gonna break the experience after the weapons are already beaten.

Things I hated:
- Leveling up every four or five fights;
- Too many materia being out of place;
- Some high end armor and accessories having been completely changed or moved. Basically I used only two armors the entire game: Endicoat and Wizard Bangle.

Things I liked:
- Being able to skip many boring scenes;
- Additional bosses and fights;
- Better and more challenging boss fights overall;
- Interesting equipment set up options;
- Being able to have Aeris after disc 1;
- The new save points (only wish there were some more at Northen Crater);
- The option to re-fight old bosses.


Thats all I can't think of. I'll now start playing the new version. I'm eager to see the new modifications.

Is this feedback for the previous version or the current version that went up today? I'm gonna assume the previous version based on the last line, but if this feedback was for the current version then I guess I really need to make a test play.

So the difficulty curve fell flat after Disc 1. When I went through each monster in each area, I saw that some were sitting with the same (or even less) HP than the enemies in the Temple which was a bit dire. I boosted everything going from the Temple of the Ancients to the North Crater with a higher level and more Speed (with some small tweaks to attacks and defences); hopefully they might put up more resistance but because of the high EXP from the old versions the damage might already be done on that front. I tuned up the bosses considerably; Carry Armor's torso is a lot more aggressive and makes use of some new attacks (and I fixed it's Arm Grab problem where it would never Arm Grab anything). Same thing with bosses like Hojo, Proud Clod, and Diamond Weapon (Diamond now uses Demon Gate's AI and alternates it's physical/magical immunities, which should be interesting).

However with that said, the problem you suggested with the North Crater enemies might have been exacerbated by the slight down-tune to spells and their slight upgrade. Let me know how you find them now and I'll roll back their HP a bit (I'm thinking Crater Dragon and Dragon Zombie will be the main culprits, closely followed by Malboro, Master Tonberry, and Pollensalta).

Talking about Exp, I tuned down given EXP for monsters and bosses slightly but it might be too late for people who have reached the end of Disc 1. I've been thinking about changing the EXP curve for characters to make Lv70+ more heavy to get through, so there's more slack for levelling up in the NG+ expansion. Might be risky.

Now while I can see the Extra Battle item requirements being time-consuming (considering the dire steal rates of the previous version) I'm not sure how the Lv.4 Limit sidequests could be considered time consuming. It's basically go to X, fight Y, get Z, with clues for where to go coming from the new crewman on the Highwind. Unless these sidequests aren't triggering and can't be found (there was a flaw in the Regular Music flevel that turned these sidequests to 'completed'; an NPC on the Highwind can fix this problem). Do you mean the boss related to each sidequest was time-consuming?

If the Extra Battle requirements are a pain, even with the new steal/drop rates, then I'll maybe revise the requirements to unlock them or if it's finding who has what, I'll add an NPC who can provide that info in-game (the Highwind's getting crowded...)

The Armor and Accessory changes were trying to fix things up and make more things useful (Star Pendants used to be made completely obsolete by Fairy Rings, for instance, while Ribbons make everything obsolete but are available fairly early in the game). You mentioned in your lists that you didn't like how different armors were but found the equipment set-up options are interesting. It might be that I need to make some alterations to make high-end armor more useful again (the Mystile/Aegis Armlet nerfs probably weren't too popular). I might try to bring things a little closer to what they were, rein in the changes here before they become unrecognizable.

I've seen a few places where new cutscene skips would be welcome (namely, whenever I die inside because I've got a long sequence to sit through). I don't want to add too many because it might get intrusive but there will be more in future. I'm thinking Elmyra's brief story about her husband, etc. is a candidate.

Anyway, I'll be starting my test play in the next few days. Hopefully this update catches some of the curve back or at least holds the fort until a more extensive revision goes in. I'd better get that soft-lock fix done first though.

Edit:
Hey Sega Chief,
can you make for the next release a list for testers. Divide the game in different stages or chapters for it, then note for yourself your expected level, damage output (physical and magical) and maybe the tactical strategy for it. The testers should place their level for the stages in the list and if they think it's to easy or to hard, the damage output they have and if the battles are too long or too short.
You can balance the game this way a bit easier, but make sure that they should do only less grinding (sidequest are an exception).

That might be an idea, it depends if people are willing to go through the game again or if new players are willing to take the time to post that level of feedback. I'm planning on playing through the mod again to 'update' my experience with it and make tweaks as I go, but extra feedback is always helpful. If anyone's willing to help out on that, let me know and I'll make up a list.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #289 on: 2014-07-30 23:51:12 »
Hoooorayy, been waiting for the update once right before temple, now I feel like I will get annihilated, should be interesting  8)

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #290 on: 2014-07-30 23:56:34 »
You probably won't get annihilated. Probably.

But let me know if things get too easy or too tough. And give stealing a shot, see how that is. The chance was pushed way up, but the level increase might cause problems.

Edit: I figured out the problem for the soft-lock when returning to the Highwind. There will now only be a prompt for party change if Cloud goes into the Crater and doesn't reach the bottom. That way, different party leaders don't get soft-locked (and don't need to change) when leaving the crater and Cloud can't leave the crater with a party of two or just by himself after the split-up event. Update will be up in an hour or tomorrow.

Edit2: And it looks like the option to toggle battle music behaviour decided to stop working too.
« Last Edit: 2014-07-31 00:42:57 by Sega Chief »

Loseless

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #291 on: 2014-07-31 00:43:19 »
Quote
Now while I can see the Extra Battle item requirements being time-consuming (considering the dire steal rates of the previous version) I'm not sure how the Lv.4 Limit sidequests could be considered time consuming. It's basically go to X, fight Y, get Z, with clues for where to go coming from the new crewman on the Highwind. Unless these sidequests aren't triggering and can't be found (there was a flaw in the Regular Music flevel that turned these sidequests to 'completed'; an NPC on the Highwind can fix this problem). Do you mean the boss related to each sidequest was time-consuming?

Its funny that you changed Carry Armor's, as it was the hardest boss I fough since Jenova Birth. The thing killed me a dozen times :P

Actually, I didn't try to get the lvl4 limits or the ultimate weapons. It would take time, no matter how little, and I don't need them. I''m doing 3000 a hit at level 70 and killing bosses with two limit breaks (and this is with Barret and Cid, both at level 70. Cloud is at level 82). Why do I need more firepower? To fight bigger bosses who reward me with even more firepower? I had assumed that ultimate weapons were necessary to finish the game or beat the weapons, but it appears not. Actually, I was afraid it might make things even easier than they were already, so I just kept using what I had.

Quote
The Armor and Accessory changes were trying to fix things up and make more things useful (Star Pendants used to be made completely obsolete by Fairy Rings, for instance, while Ribbons make everything obsolete but are available fairly early in the game). You mentioned in your lists that you didn't like how different armors were but found the equipment set-up options are interesting. It might be that I need to make some alterations to make high-end armor more useful again (the Mystile/Aegis Armlet nerfs probably weren't too popular). I might try to bring things a little closer to what they were, rein in the changes here before they become unrecognizable.

Precisely. While the three elemental armors were interesting (plus the Adamant), there was never a battle were I was being hurt by water, lightning, fire or ice to the point that I had to use defensive equipment. And since the defense and mdefense formulas in FF7 are broken, the only thing that matters in armors is the stat boost they give and the materia slots. Sure, Crystal has the best values for mid disc 2, but there's no Str or Mag stat boost... And only 6 slots. So Edincoat or Wizard it is. Mystile has 75 M. Evade. Cool. 6 slots without growth, and zero defenses and evade... Meh... Edincoat or Wizard again. But remember that you have some armors that are absolutely useless (Shinra Alpha and Beta). You can use those to create completely different armors to fit any role you can think of.

A bit of advice: if you're gonna make version 1.2 thinking about a  NG+, leave the Ziedrich as a 8 slot armor, with its currents status and some evade. It might seem broken, but you could make it one of the final quests: if you got the things, good. If you didn't, you would regret it... Besides, they can't be more broken that the ultimate weapons... Just have some super boss trio have them. Or if the NG+ follows the battle with Buffalo Bill have him drop the three things. Or maybe just one, so that there's some replayability (one Ribbon and one Ziedrich per run). But I would advise you to increase the materia limit to 250 or 300. Having multiple playthroughs might produce too many shiny rocks and we don't have Lara Croft's backpack with us... Also, if you want players to do multiple runs, have something waiting for them. Maybe some bosses that are only playable the second time? A very slow leveling process (if you think is difficult to balance the difficulty curve, try making a game design for players to go from lvl 1 to lvl 40. That pretty much ends the balancing issues, as it will be MUCH more easier for you to point how players will be doing). Otherwise, you can do something old RPGs did two decades ago: after NG+ have players start at lvl 1 but with increased stats, corresponding to a certain % of their stats at the end of the game. This way players could level to 99, start again and have some reasons to play. Maybe after two or three runs they had the equip and stats necessary to beat those super bosses that were waiting... Just food for thought :P

And finally, I really think you should do something more interesting with Fort Condor. Why not have a note pop up whenever there's a battle? If you give players interesting prizes and a custom boss fight (might just be a palette swap enemy from later in the game and a HP boost) to justify backtracking all the way there it might be more interesting. And if so, please make the battles more engaging, so that they're actually challenging and worth the items. This way you could give players access to armors, accessories that they would otherwise get on disc 2.

And I'll start the new version of the mod tomorrow. I'll also be writing the small guide we talked yesterday. I'll be sending you the daily progress, along with timestamps and other useful information, so that you can suggest some things I missed and check my progress and overall progress (like the levels, max AP got, Gil, hours played and relevant notes). Just keep in mind that I won't stop for training unless I'm completely hopeless before a boss, won't grind kills for limits, won't train for gil or anything like that. But I'll fight some enemies to steal armors. I also won't be using double AP equip, unless those weapons are the best available. This will almost be a speed run.



And I apologize in advance if this will sounds too harsh or unfair, but I feel like I have to explain myself and point where I'm coming from:

I understand the concept of not wanting to give players access to powerful stuff too easily. I really do. Its a way to make them appreciate what they have and learn to use it rather than just giving them the powerful stuff early on. I'm ok with that. But if getting the powerful stuff is delayed too much and involves a lot of busywork, they will just become boring. The way I see it: I can spend 5 hours running around collecting the items and fighting at the arena to get those things OR I can get to the Crater, fight some things, level to 99 (which by itself would take two hours at best), master all the materia I can, and after that those precious materia would stop being useful because my regular attack would hit for more damage (and thank god I already spent 5 hours running with Chocobos and trying to get my golden bird just to learn that I can't get Zeio nuts before god knows how many hours of grinding and fighting and therefore have enough GP for dozens of arena fights).

I like the Chocobo racing mini game. But after 15 years doing it, its kind of old... I know some people like to breed the birds and get their 176 MPH Speedy Gonzalez chocobo, but for me, its just busy work to get four materias, from which only one of them really matters to me: Quadramagic. HP/MP is utterly useless, KOTR is broken and Mime is either broken or useless. Even after breeding the giant chickens (which takes a couple of hours if you know what you're doing) having to fight bosses to get these materia? Meh... Its like I have to do some busy work, in order to do some more busy work, to finally get the materia. The three bosses were interesting, don't get me wrong. Except for the king squirrel thing that was pretty much unbeatable until I pumped the Str and dropped three lvl3 limit breaks on it, killing it before it could spam pearless like a meteor was coming or something.

As for the weapons, beating Emerald or Ruby to get Morph to get the Golden Chocobo? Sorry, but I don't want to spend 20 hours worth of grinding just to get Morph or the golden chicken so I can get an utterly broken materia which I'll have barely anyone to test it on...

The problem of changing exp and AP (both from battles and required to level materia) is that it leads to an unbalance in the gameplay. The same could happen if the enemies gave less exp, but then you could always level up, while the contrary can't be done. The advantage in playing a low level game (and I say this loosely) is that it makes you come up with effective strategies to overcome difficult enemies. If hitting bosses and regular enemies in the head is your most reliable solution, then something is not right and this is what's happening. Why do I need to come up with strategies and exploit status and elemental weaknesses on monsters and bosses if my lvl 65 Cloud could kill the bosses with regular attacks, before even getting the Highwind? After that it only became worse. If I'll hit 99 before even getting half of the game quests done, what will be the reward then? Something that no longer has any use? Its like crossing hell just to find a fire extinguisher.


Yeah, its fun to have an array of spells to cast. But its more practical to remove most of them, leaving Restore, Barrier, Time, Heal and Revive, allowing for more HP n order to whack things in the head with swords longer before healing. And if we don't use magic, the extra MP and Magic stat points added by the magic materia also become useless. We rather need Strength and HP. Some times it doesn't work so well, but if there's something I need at the moment, Enemy Skill is there for that: improvising.

Sure, magic works fine in the first disc, except for MP being more abundant than bananas in Ecuador - I just realized that I've just beaten the game without ever using one Ether and still having 6 Tents from the 20 I bought on disc 1... Disc 2 and 3 become a slash fest, just like a bad horror movie. Its just like the Scream movies...

The moral here is that while the mod has improved many aspects of the game, it is more unbalanced than the original, because the changed values of AP, exp and MP required to cast spells have created a counter-productive effect and thats a problem. I don't want to sound unfair or anything, but if those values were like they used to be in the original game, the mod would be more balanced. I'm not suggesting they should be like they were originally, but rather that the balance problem was something created when it didn't existed in the beginning, which, by all logic, points toward a posteriori problem.

I know that the intention behind this was making the players level faster and make magic more appealing. But ironically, those two objectives aren't possible at the same time, because after level 60 magic starts becoming less powerful compared to regular attacks. And this only gets worst as the damage formula for regular attacks

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #292 on: 2014-07-31 02:11:09 »
Well, it's good to vent steam I guess (those metaphors of yours make me die a little inside each time though  :-P).

A few things:

-) Defence from armor isn't broken in FF7, it was Magic Defence that wasn't being calculated properly. But this glitch was fixed in the Steam version and Aali's Driver for the 1998 version fixes it too. Check the character's status screen and see if Magic Defence is higher than the character's spirit stat; if it's higher, it means the bug is fixed. That being said, the way the formulas work means it doesn't make a huge difference (hence the status boosts).

-) The Materia limit can't be increased, to my knowledge. It's a pain, but unless there's hex editing that can handle it we're kinda stuck.

-) Slow leveling: I've been thinking about this because an NG+ means there should be more room for development past the end of the first playthrough. I'm going to look at the arcs and see what can be done (I can edit the curves manually but it's tricky). Resetting to Lv1 might not be possible (or it might be glitchy), I'll have to check the special functions in the debug rooms; maybe there's something there.

-) Fort Condor's always been a weird place. I think it was originally intended to be necessary to have a shot at the Huge Materia later in the game but they axed that and made it optional (giving them money doesn't affect the outcome of this sidequest in any way that I know of; you get to participate in the Huge Materia battle regardless). I might try and revamp this place at some point, maybe set it up so that fights can be repeated once the Huge Materia event is done.

-) Someone mentioned that about Gold Chocobos before. I want to streamline things wherever I can, so I'll need to think of something. Returning the Gold Chocobo as a prize is probably the answer, that's a short-cut past all the breeding (it should be available to get now, though, with the Morph Materia no longer being specific to the Kalm Traveller).

-) You get Mega-All from the purple Materia cave, not HP<->MP (that was dropped by Materia Keeper instead of Counter-Attack). And Mime is certainly not useless if you know how to use it. Also, KOTR had it's defence-ignoring property removed. I think it might deal more reasonable damage now, though probably still the strongest spell in the game.

-) The default game isn't balanced at all, except maybe if you don't know where anything is or what you're doing. But it's an old game now, and a lot of people are seasoned vets from other much harder RPGs. It wasn't unusual for people to clear FF7 with only one Game Over (Carry Armor) and there's ways to beat most of the bosses, super-bosses included, with Lv.1 parties or within a few minutes.

I'm trying to work with two things in mind: 1) What I find reasonable difficulty isn't what other people find reasonable (this killed the first release of the mod, it's a bad sign when people have to save-edit past Motorball), and 2) People don't have as much time to invest in old games (you said yourself, you don't want to spend time doing old sidequests like Chocobo Racing or too much grinding).

That's sort of why things turned out the way they are; I was too cautious with enemy strength (which gets worse and worse as the game goes on) and I was trying to make the game play quicker which ended up putting physical attacks on top because it's at higher levels where Phys. Attacks start to catch up and overtake the magic damage formula. I think that's the biggest oversight; I didn't connect the faster leveling to the curve of the physical damage formula.

When giving feedback for this update though, try to keep it narrowed down to what we haven't gone over (or be brief if it's old ground about Exp, physical attacks, etc.) Keeps the thread less chunky and easier to go through. What I'm interested in right now is info on Tier 2-3 spells and Summons, and how they fare.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #293 on: 2014-07-31 02:36:48 »
one of my favorite offensive tier 2/3 spells is gravity. Love the idea with enemies of 2x gravity damage, demi 2 can wipe them out. Might sound overpowing but it still has a chance to miss. 

On a more serious note, Sega can you explain this Devil's Gate battle? =_= This befuddled me like crazy..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFf0oG4eV3w&feature=youtu.be

The only thing I can think of was dual drain status.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #294 on: 2014-07-31 03:04:12 »
I can confirm.

Cheers, VGR. I better learn how to use Bootleg though so I can troubleshoot the mod from it better.

one of my favorite offensive tier 2/3 spells is gravity. Love the idea with enemies of 2x gravity damage, demi 2 can wipe them out. Might sound overpowing but it still has a chance to miss. 

On a more serious note, Sega can you explain this Devil's Gate battle? =_= This befuddled me like crazy..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFf0oG4eV3w&feature=youtu.be

The only thing I can think of was dual drain status.

If it's a Molotov then it'll probably be Dual Drain. By the way, if you get stuck in that challenge then let me know; I might have a trick or two to share  :wink:
« Last Edit: 2014-07-31 03:07:31 by Sega Chief »

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #295 on: 2014-07-31 04:45:56 »
Three Things:

1. Devil's Gate... that was just challenging. I ended up winning by using Cloud's Yoshiyuki with both allies down, then once I took out the first half (how lucky idk) I revived everyone.

2. Aeris' Death Scene... Lol I was expecting some big explanation or something exciting... nope just a phoenix down LOL.

3. The 2nd Jenova.... Ummm I lost this fight, but I still won? Idk. What the hell is with that? Also if I had actually killed that thing would I have gotten any bonuses

BONUS THING: I forgot to let the clock knock me down to the bottom at the temple of the ancients... what did I miss?

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #296 on: 2014-07-31 09:40:29 »
Three Things:

1. Devil's Gate... that was just challenging. I ended up winning by using Cloud's Yoshiyuki with both allies down, then once I took out the first half (how lucky idk) I revived everyone.

2. Aeris' Death Scene... Lol I was expecting some big explanation or something exciting... nope just a phoenix down LOL.

3. The 2nd Jenova.... Ummm I lost this fight, but I still won? Idk. What the hell is with that? Also if I had actually killed that thing would I have gotten any bonuses

BONUS THING: I forgot to let the clock knock me down to the bottom at the temple of the ancients... what did I miss?

Jenova was like that in the previous version of the mod. The one up right now deals with that, as I understand.

Oh, and you missed the Nail Bat. Which was almost the same as in the original game, only with a damage modifier based on how many kills you have on Cloud. Still no materia slot though...


@ Sega Chief

About defense, I wasn't saying "broken" like it didn't work, but rather as useless. Having a 100 def armor or a 0 has little impact on damage. Other FFs did this a lot better (the early ones, 9 and 12 come to mind).

What I hate about Mime is that it goes around game's limitations. Mime + KOTR is one of the most broken strategies in the original game. But spamming limit breaks through Mime is even worse! Mime has its uses, but they're always about someone doing something that they wouldn't be able to otherwise, and while I get the appeal, it detracts too much from strategy for my taste.

I knew the balance thing was going to bite me in the grapes... By balance I meant certain aspects of the game's progression. If you know what to do and where to go, you'll leave disc on at late 30s or early 40s, disc two at early 50s and finish disc three at 60, give or take. You'll get level 2 spells before Corel and level three before the Crater or before Junon. By balance I meant the exp, AP and damage progressions. Of course since we're all about meta-gaming we didn't noticed this things anymore.

And about the chocobos, I don't mind it that much. Its necessary to get GP to fight at the Arena, get the four materia, besides the rewards from the races, which some are really interesting, like Magic Counter (another very interesting materia that comes way too late to have much use), Counter, Counter Attack, Sprint Shoes, Cat's Bell (useless, but meh), Precious Watch, Sneak Attack and something else I'm missing. Yeah, it takes a few hours, but the rewards are worth it. I just hate the breeding part. But hell will freeze over if I'm gonna fight Ruby before getting my giant golden chicken.

As for difficulty, thats a complex concept. There are some aspects in gaming that developers tend to ignore a little:

- There are games that mostly rely on preparation, being the tactical RPGs the perfect example of this. Your mod has an heavy focus on this aspect, as some fights are barely winnable if you don't have the right accessories;

- Then there are games that require strategy, meaning that you'll have to adapt and create something on the spot in order to beat the enemies. This is more classical to RPGs. Your mod has some fights like that, when you can't just raw damage.

- In both cases, there's always a third way: leveling up. For example, Jenova Birth is pretty strong. But its not like its invincible, even for a low level party. But if you're not too hot about putting people with sadness, back row, casting Barrier and having someone healing (Aeris and Yuffie would do wonders here), you can always gain two or three levels and get past it.

The thing is that in some games it doesn't really matter how leveled you are. If you don't have the right equipment or a solid strategy you're done for. This is not the case however, and you can always try having this in mind: why people die. Is it because they aren't really interested in strategy and rather blazing through fights? If so, then its their problem. If people like to blaze through they have that option. its just a matter of gaining 5 or 10 levels and everything will be much easier. It may break the fun, but its their choice. But for the rest of the guys who are really into meta-gaming and strategical thinking, leveling up is not our first choice, but rather something that happens in the process. The problem before was that leveling was destroying the need for strategy. But if people are loosing even with preparation and solid strategies, than maybe the fight is a little rigged.

As for speed, initially I was afraid of the higher AP requirements for materia. But after playing through the Crater I realized that with all the Triple equipment and the boosted AP from fights it would be very easy to master materia. Maybe even too easy? I fought the Movers and got enough AP to buy a house on the Bahamas and I wasn't even on Double or Triple AP mode.


Oh, btw, and for the report I mentioned, I was thinking more about doing that by PM. Since it will contain what I wrote for the guide so far and all, so putting it here would be mass flooding... More than I already do.


PS: and the metaphors are payback for what you did with Yellow M-Phone, W-Item and Full-Cure. You're a cold guy, dude.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #297 on: 2014-07-31 14:06:11 »
Three Things:

1. Devil's Gate... that was just challenging. I ended up winning by using Cloud's Yoshiyuki with both allies down, then once I took out the first half (how lucky idk) I revived everyone.

2. Aeris' Death Scene... Lol I was expecting some big explanation or something exciting... nope just a phoenix down LOL.

3. The 2nd Jenova.... Ummm I lost this fight, but I still won? Idk. What the hell is with that? Also if I had actually killed that thing would I have gotten any bonuses

BONUS THING: I forgot to let the clock knock me down to the bottom at the temple of the ancients... what did I miss?

I actually thought I'd fixed that Jenova thing. Turns out I haven't, and it's still got the flag enabled to disable Game Over for that fight. I guess that'll be fixed for the next one.

Of course a Phoenix Down. What else would you use, Lv4 Revive Materia?  :wink:

And at the bottom of the Temple it's a Crystal Bangle not a Nail Bat. The Nail Bat was moved up to one of the chests in the Clock Rooms if I remember right.

PS: and the metaphors are payback for what you did with Yellow M-Phone, W-Item and Full-Cure. You're a cold guy, dude.

Alright, I'll give you that one.

I hear what you're saying. The challenge I've got is trying to find a way to make a boss interesting and challenging without it being either a 'beginner's trap' or a curb-stomp (either on the player's side of things or the boss). I think the best place for difficulty to come from is the AI rather than the actual stats and attacks. What I was planning to do was look at interesting bosses from other RPGs and have a shot at replicating some of their behaviour then putting it into new bosses/revamps for the mod.

It's a little tough sometimes to interpret feedback on particular bosses though. Someone might say that they found X Boss to be too strong, but I'll have people who have went through that boss without incident. So I've got to consider things like what they have equipment-wise, how they've leveled their Materia up to that point, and what their general proficiency/approach with the game is. That's not much of a problem early on but as the game goes on those differences become much greater and there's more variance between players. What I didn't realise when boosting EXP to make the game faster and to help players catch up if they fell behind, was that at the other end of things the players who didn't need the leg-up are finding themselves overpowered. I adjusted the EXP for this release but I'm also going to put the EXP curve up so that there's plenty of leeway for leveling in NG+. I'd better update the Readme, etc. with that info actually.

I thought you meant the calcs themselves were broken, like the MDEF glitch. Yeah, defence values don't make a huge difference between certain values. It feels like defence is a little like physical formulas, in that it suddenly gets a lot stronger as it approaches the max caps. I could experiment with giving late armor defences past 100 or I could have a shot at giving more armors resistances to elements (or give them all a buff of some kind). Or I could set them back to how they were. Undecided.

PMs would be handy. I guess a guide would be useful seeing as I've probably changed too much.

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #298 on: 2014-07-31 14:23:48 »
Well, actually, since you're struggling with some bosses, I decided to leave a save before every boss or fixed fight in this playthrough, so I can be a test dummy if you want to try changing something.

And by the way, if you managed to let us skip the drag dressing and the harem part in Midgar, I'll marry you. I swear my soul dies a little every time I have to do that crap. But then again, Cloud IS Buffalo Bill's clone, so what else would he do? God damn crazy people. FF7 could be over in 5 minutes if we had the in-game option to buy Lithium or some other happy pills for Cloud and Buffalo Bill. Anthrax comes to mind: "Its a mad house!"

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.1)
« Reply #299 on: 2014-07-31 15:08:25 »
Well, the thought of marrying you is givin' me the chills so there'll be no skip for cross-dressing. As for the game being over in five minutes, to be honest the player party doesn't actually have much of a positive impact in the story's events overall. In fact, the game would probably unfold in a much more positive way if the team stayed put in Sector 7 and had a drink or three.

Their general contribution to the game's events essentially boil down to this:

-) Killed a bunch of people blowing up the first Reactor
-) Killed a bunch of people blowing up the fifth Reactor
-) Trashed the roof of a Church
-) Made a bunch of people feel insecure about themselves in Wall Market
-) Killed a bunch of people by prompting Shinra to bring down the Plate
-) Saved/Messed up a Parade and saved/doomed the network that was televising it
-) Killed a trigger-happy felon (okay that's one point for the home team, I guess)
-) Dragged Vincent out of his stupor so he could emote at people
-) Got the Bronco wrecked by gunfire
-) Solved the Temple puzzle, thereby accelerating Sephiroth's plans
-) Got Aeris back-stabbed
-) Got the Black Materia back before handing it over anyway
-) Potentially saved the inhabitants of Fort Condor (okay, another point there)
-) Potentially stopped a coal train from flattening a few tents and two shops in North Corel
-) Potentially shot down and horribly drowned the crew of the Red Submarine
-) Sabotaged Shinra's probably legit plan to blow up Meteor with a Materia Bomb (granted, the Rocket doesn't work even if the party gets none of the Huge Materia but seeing as the party didn't have an alternative plan to this it seemed a bit like vandalism)
-) Got a projector working again in the Forgotten City
-) Saved Midgar from a Sister Ray explosion (one point for that)
-) Killed Sephiroth in the Crater and gave Holy the opportunity to have the Opposite Effect

The closing caption of this game should be: Mistakes were made, but it all worked out in the end.