Author Topic: Why is Aeris' death so significant?  (Read 41923 times)

Covarr

  • Covarr-Let
  • Administrator
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 4067
  • Karma: 124
  • Just Covarr. No "n".
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #25 on: 2010-09-03 20:06:30 »
However, the stereotypical Sephiroth-haters (the ones that say, "He killed a flower girl, Kefka killed Cyan's family, hurr durr!") would never come to truly appreciate what the scene is about.  I mean, no one really cared when Cyan's family died.  No one really cared about anyone Kefka successfully killed.  Please catch me out if I'm wrong there.

Kefka is just about global disaster - if we really cared about that, we'd actually try to stop global warming :P No, for us to really react, we need an emotional attachment to whatever's destroyed, and the Aerith-killing scene played on that very effectively.

Yes, this is what they don't understand. You can't judge the villainousness of a deed by just looking at the number of people someone kills; that's childish. If someone kills one person that you care about, you'll hate them more than someone who drops a nuclear bomb on a city half way across the world, and a villain killing one person in a profoundly significant way is more effective than a villain killing a million nobodies.

I think this illustrates the general transition between FF6 and FF7. The latter took much from the former, but everything was so much more refined and mature. Somewhere between 1994 and 1997, Squaresoft's writers grew up. Sadly, more mature storytelling is much easier to misunderstand.
Especially since nobody Kefka killed was as hot as Aeristh. Seriously.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • Karma: 308
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #26 on: 2010-09-03 21:16:54 »
Quote
Especially since nobody Kefka killed was as hot as Aeristh. Seriously.

I see you have found a compromise to the Aeris/Aerith issue haha  ;D  Sounds like a guy pissed up though....

battlemage210

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #27 on: 2010-09-04 16:34:44 »
come to think of it, the writer(s) play with this emotion a couple of times. i recall Tifa's father being killed and her outrage and subsequently clouds. you gotta wonder (and give very serious appreciation and more mushy stuff i cant bring to mind at the moment) if the producer Hironobu Sakaguchi had not decided to draw on his life at the time and put that into the games development, would we still be in such love with the game that we are (special thank you to the guys behind Qgears for bringing this information to my attention).

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #28 on: 2010-09-04 16:52:12 »
you gotta wonder (and give very serious appreciation and more mushy stuff i cant bring to mind at the moment) if the producer Hironobu Sakaguchi had not decided to draw on his life at the time and put that into the games development, would we still be in such love with the game that we are

No.

The answer is that simple. One of the points of Aeris' death was that it was completely meaningless. The player lost something and gained nothing in return. It was just needless cruelty that you couldn't do anything about, just watch. That was how Sakaguchi felt about death after he lost his mother.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • Karma: 308
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #29 on: 2010-09-05 13:28:24 »
It was also done that way because the writers wanted it to be less like hollywood.  That they wanted maximum impact and they wanted it to reflect what can happen in real life...  you can just die, that's it.
Quote
In a May 2003 issue of Edge Magazine, Kitase had this to say about Aerith's death:

"People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much, you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming, I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

yoshi314

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #30 on: 2010-09-05 16:18:26 »
that reminds me of silent hill 3 where you have a confessional scene, where you can choose to forgive or not to the person making a confession about her sins.

neither choice is the right one, and it was also inspired by real life experience of one of the devs ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f6EWqCscyc#t=22m18s )

i guess many games have events inspired by real life experiences of the developers.

Shankifer

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 0
  • Jack of all trades - Master of none!
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #31 on: 2010-09-05 16:49:43 »
that reminds me of silent hill 3 where you have a confessional scene, where you can choose to forgive or not to the person making a confession about her sins.

neither choice is the right one, and it was also inspired by real life experience of one of the devs ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f6EWqCscyc#t=22m18s )

i guess many games have events inspired by real life experiences of the developers.

It isn't that big of a mystery :P
If developers just sat around pulling ideas out of their asses instead of their heads, we'd have a lot of games with no connection to the real world whatsoever, no emotion, just mindless, crazy, nothingness. So be grateful that *most* devs now-days still appreciate what personal experience can bring to the table. Faked emotion is the worst kind in gaming/movies so when I play games that have great play, but no story/emotion, I feel a little disappointed, but when I play a game that has great play, and totally crap-emotions, I get ticked off lol.

Senti

  • Cool newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Karma: 0
  • There's a fine line between insanity and ingenius
    • View Profile
    • Psychopathic Studios
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #32 on: 2010-09-05 17:07:20 »
Amen to that brother, I'm a storyline gamer, if a game has no story to it, yeah I might play it when I'm just that bored, but if it has horrible story to it, I don't touch it at all (WoW in particular, killed the Warcraft storyline).

nikfrozty

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1232
  • Karma: 0
  • Cloud kicks Sephiroth's Butt Anytime
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #33 on: 2010-09-06 13:49:37 »
Amen to that brother, I'm a storyline gamer, if a game has no story to it, yeah I might play it when I'm just that bored, but if it has horrible story to it, I don't touch it at all (WoW in particular, killed the Warcraft storyline).
I agree with you man. I'll pretty much more prefer a new Warcraft 4 with another great storyline rather than WoW.

Mirenheart

  • Insane poster
  • *
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma: 0
  • Pone
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #34 on: 2010-09-07 05:26:12 »
Amen to that brother, I'm a storyline gamer, if a game has no story to it, yeah I might play it when I'm just that bored, but if it has horrible story to it, I don't touch it at all (WoW in particular, killed the Warcraft storyline).
I agree with you man. I'll pretty much more prefer a new Warcraft 4 with another great storyline rather than WoW.

Really doubt that's going to happen anytime soon ever. With how popular it is, they may feel that all they'll ever need now is occasional updates and an expansion once in a blue moon. Tis very sad :(

Shankifer

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 0
  • Jack of all trades - Master of none!
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #35 on: 2010-09-07 06:06:29 »
It's been said that after Diablo 3 is released. WC4 will be next.

About 2 or 3 years ago I read that it was in the "Infant Stage" Hoping they're planning to hit us with a shocker.

Warcraft had one of the greatest story-lines ever in my book, and the game was so well put-together.
Not to mention Blizzards CGI crew (even back in the days of WC2) is totally off the charts. Square-Enix can step aside to Blizzard.

Granted FF13 Graphics are good, but they're empty, they feel incomplete. Go watch the Warcraft 3 Cinematics. There's so much personality to those movies.

Word on the street (and at blizzcon in 2006 or 7) is that Legendary is teaming up with Blizzard to create a movie. Live action and CGI. Fingers crossed that one day it actually gets done lol.

If you compare Square's Cinematics from 7 to 10 to 13

You notice that 7 is the most original

in ff10 the characters became more stereotypical, and in 13 they were just people that you had no connection with.

That moment when Aeris dies is probably one of the single most real elements of gaming, and movie business. The fact that she dies and everyone experiences a great loss is only half the show. The fact that FF7's characters are designed to look like cartoons and not real people is the other half. Statistically, it has been proven that people in general, while watching animated movies, like it when things that are noticeably different from humans, go through human situations. See: Toy Story V.S. The Polar Express. Look how much people hate AC (aside from the fact that they messed up their own storyline). Notice how people Liked Avatar so much? Everything that was animated was noticeably separate from life as we know it.

It's a statistically proven thing. The reason I bring it up is because I have a Film-Fiction&History class and that's a topic that comes up a lot. "Why do we enjoy it when inanimate objects like cars have lives in the animated world, but not animated people?"

Covarr

  • Covarr-Let
  • Administrator
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 4067
  • Karma: 124
  • Just Covarr. No "n".
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #36 on: 2010-09-07 06:12:13 »
Statistically, it has been proven that people in general, while watching animated movies, like it when things that are noticeably different from humans, go through human situations.
Does this include animals being smartasses, such as in every Dreamworks CGI film ever?

Shankifer

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 0
  • Jack of all trades - Master of none!
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #37 on: 2010-09-07 06:34:05 »
Hahaha, I would assume so   :P

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #38 on: 2010-09-09 19:44:12 »
I actually had a theory about why we feels more strongly for FF7's weird-looking characters when I argued that we should go with chibi designs in the game instead of full-size ones.

Most of the non-human things we sympathise with are cute in some way. We sympathise more with cute things because they are paedomorphic: they remind us of children. When we're dealing with children, our protective instincts come out, meaning that we are moved more by FF7's chibi characters than we would be if realistic-looking ones were doing the same thing.

Tenko Kuugen

  • Public Enemy
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1427
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #39 on: 2010-09-10 16:11:13 »
Durr, after reading through most of the thread ( I seriously felt like my brain was melting and running out of my ears towards the end of page 1 ) I can safely say that what OP did in his post, I could do for pretty much any pre-ff10 game, maybe except for FF1.  And some dragon quest games as well. You simply described the whole thing in detail from a perspective YOU assume to be the correct one. It all depends on what you are looking for in a game. I for instance, I don't want any emotional impact or drama. I simply want a villain that destroys, destroys and destroys because, honestly, it's FUN to destroy things and kill people. I don't need a villain with some extreme ulterior motive, a plot with forced twists and drama that was only there for the sake of drama.  Sure, drama sells and a lot of people are suckers for that, but there are also people that simply don't care.
What if you don't like cloud and Aerith? what if you laughed at the misery the character went through because you marvel at the sheer genius and trickery of the villain?
I never really 'cared' that Aerith died beside the fact that they took out my best mage that had coincidentally the best limits. Call me cold or dumb, whatever you want ( I won't care either way ), but I much prefer villains like Kefka or Kuja. Or, for instance, Zeromous.
I wont include Ultimecia because, even though her trickery and sheer amount of manipulation is beyond awesome, the story has too many holes to compensate for lack of originality.
Sephiroth is not a bad villain. He's pretty good. But the whole "OMG AERITHS DEATH IS SO GODDAMN IMPORTANT" thing just bores the hell outta me. If they hadn't done that, I would have liked the game more.

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #40 on: 2010-09-10 16:26:25 »
I suppose that if you don't want emotional impact or drama, then you won't get anything out of that scene, but some of us do. Don't downplay the importance of something just because it isn't your cup of tea. It's like saying Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is just some bloke slamming down on some piano keys and then, after hearing someone explain how this creates music, saying "hurr I don't like music, I just like slamming on piano keys".

Ironically, you've done just what you seem to be accusing me of doing; I explain why this scene is important to a lot of people and you strawberries on it just because it isn't your thing. I didn't say that everyone has to love this scene, but what I do ask is that people at least appreciate what other people see in it instead of saying "durr, he just killed a flower girl; my villain is better because he has a higher kill count. I don't care about story or motive".

Shankifer

  • Crazy poster
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Karma: 0
  • Jack of all trades - Master of none!
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #41 on: 2010-09-10 18:49:56 »
Every Villain has an ulterior motive, simply because he/she/it has to, the villain must have goal to accomplish and a reason for completing that goal.

A game where a guy/girl/thing gets up one morning and says "You know what? Today, I'm going to do my best to kill everyone on the planet!" would be fun to play for shits and giggles when you're bored. The most similar game I can think of at the moment is Castle Crashers.

In my own personal opinion, the best villain in gaming is probably Arthas Menethil (better known in World of Warcraft as The Lich King) from the Warcraft 3 series. He was the original Hero of the game, turned evil by lust. Yes, he did ultimately want to kill everything, and it was a fun game to play with a great story.

Getting back on-topic, Games without story won't last long. War-game players love Halo and/or Call of Duty because they have a campaign with a decent story (personal opinion) that appeals to the players.

A game has to be able to answer questions like "Why am I killing these people?" or "Why are these people trying to kill me?"

A game also must consist of some drama. Life is drama. People like something that they can relate to or understand. You know that (usually) there is a hero and a villain. You also (usually) know that the hero will overcome the villain's obstacles no matter what. Drama is the way those events are played out. If it was just a game where a guy steals your bagel, and immediately after he does it you kill him and take your bagel back, it would be entertaining once or twice (I mean come on, it would at least be humorous to play a few times) but it will never make it in the industry.

Edit: Also, a game with no emotional impact? That isn't a game, that's a program. I'm not being biased to games with intricate stories, just saying that no matter what the game is it should invoke emotional responses. Whether that response be anger, love, curiosity (if you can call that an emotion), joy, sadness etc., is besides the point because it is an emotional response.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-10 18:54:49 by Shankifer »

pyrozen

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 793
  • Karma: 0
  • Team Avalanche Member
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #42 on: 2010-09-10 20:04:35 »
a game that is fun, has no emotion, and no drama? I find it hard to think of one, but Pong, Space Invaders, and Asteroids come to mind. No story at all, you just play the game. I would include pacman, but the ghosts DID steal Ms Pacman, so i guess that counts as drama. Books are the same way, if no one cared we would all be happy reading See Spot Run and never read another book.

games have drama because most players prefer it, and it makes the experience more real. I love the occasional homicidal lunatic (Dark Knight anyone?) but it is very difficult to pull off a truly evil character, much more so than a sickly sweet good one.

The Seer of Shadows

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1146
  • Karma: 0
  • I used to be indecisive. But now, I'm not sure...
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #43 on: 2010-09-11 05:26:02 »
Without a storyline, I personally wouldn't enjoy a game for very long.  Even the under-developed storyline of FFI, which basically existed for the purpose of letting you know where to go and when, did a lot for it because it feels like there is some purpose in playing the game.  Even though it's a world of fiction, where nothing exists and nothing matters, it mustn't be allowed to feel meaningless or else many gamers like myself will lose interest.

And I literally just reiterated every other post in this thread :P

Let me use FF6 as an example.  I'll admit it - I thought Kefka was pretty awesome while I was playing through that game, in my own little immature way.  His personality had no dimension, but that was fine by me.  He was the drama and the comic relief at the same time.  He put the characters who did have some personality through a lot of pain and grief.  Yes, he tore apart the world, but I wouldn't have cared about that if it hadn't affected the mood of the game.  In other words, I liked him because he provided a lot of the drama, which was reflected in the other characters.  All the while, his attitude (especially while killing Gestahl) cracked me up.  The way he can get you to laugh as he is through all the terror is the only level of empathy I ever experienced with him directly, and it was enough to make me appreciate him as a villain.  Yet the deeper characters such as Terra and Celes kept me from becoming too emotionally detached from the whole thing.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-11 05:31:09 by The Seer of Shadows »

Covarr

  • Covarr-Let
  • Administrator
  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 4067
  • Karma: 124
  • Just Covarr. No "n".
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #44 on: 2010-09-11 23:29:17 »
Without a storyline, I personally wouldn't enjoy a game for very long.
I simply do not understand this. I've probably invested more hours in Tetris and Panel De Pon than most other games, and they are puzzles with no story whatsoever! Hell, my absolute favorite game, Left 4 Dead 2, has a paper-thin story with strawberries for character development and zero drama.

For an RPG, a story is a must, and a good story is a plus, but for games like Bad Dudes, the plot adds nothing, and in the case of games like Dr. Mario 64, the plot just gets in the way of the game.

DLPB

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • Karma: 308
  • The ascension of the ordinary man
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #45 on: 2010-09-11 23:51:05 »
With an RPG a story is needed but I am not so sure how much it matters.  I absolutely love BOF3 but its story is a little on the basic side.

Opine

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 522
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #46 on: 2010-09-12 12:27:07 »
I've probably invested more hours in Tetris and Panel De Pon than most other games, and they are puzzles with no story whatsoever!
Touché. I had been of the mind of the general consensus. I now must retract my thoughts! I spent an entire year playing nothing but Snood and Super Bounce Out.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-14 20:03:59 by Opine »

battlemage210

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #47 on: 2010-09-14 01:53:11 »
a game that is fun, has no emotion, and no drama? I find it hard to think of one, but Pong, Space Invaders, and Asteroids come to mind. No story at all, you just play the game. I would include pacman, but the ghosts DID steal Ms Pacman, so i guess that counts as drama. Books are the same way, if no one cared we would all be happy reading See Spot Run and never read another book.

um Space Invaders... "aliens attacking? MY PLANET?! DIE YOU SONS OF BITCHES!"

i think something like that is the emotion they were going for in that one. but true.. as for pong it must have been the joy emotion in the PvP aspect of the game. "ha! i beat you!" that kinda thing.

Mr. Amazing

  • Guest
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #48 on: 2010-09-16 02:59:12 »
It is very simple, Kefka is better because Sephiroth DOES NOTHING! he has no notable quotables, he gets everything wrong (no you're not an Ancient) and all he really does that pisses you off is kill Aerith. How much more impersonal can you get then hiding in the arctic and summoning a meteor in safety and security? With FF6 they slowly nurtured the player's hatred of Kefka and all of the characters had a reason to fight him. Why does red 13 or Cait Sith care about Sephiroth? Look at vincent. All he says is I don't care about anything and he goes back to his casket until you try and leave and then he has a sudden and unexplained change of heart. FF6 had a WAY better story while FF7s was poorly explained and full of long drawn out portions where nothing happened FF6 had a story that was non-stop and far stronger on character development, for both good guys and bad guys. The idea that FF7 story was more mature is garbage. It was poorly done except for a couple real gems. FF6 story was all gems.

Jaitsu

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 0
  • DON'T FWOOSH ME BRO
    • View Profile
    • Jaitsu Studios
Re: Why is Aeris' death so significant?
« Reply #49 on: 2010-09-16 04:10:59 »
It is very simple, Kefka is better because Sephiroth DOES NOTHING! he has no notable quotables, he gets everything wrong (no you're not an Ancient) and all he really does that pisses you off is kill Aerith. How much more impersonal can you get then hiding in the arctic and summoning a meteor in safety and security? With FF6 they slowly nurtured the player's hatred of Kefka and all of the characters had a reason to fight him. Why does red 13 or Cait Sith care about Sephiroth? Look at vincent. All he says is I don't care about anything and he goes back to his casket until you try and leave and then he has a sudden and unexplained change of heart. FF6 had a WAY better story while FF7s was poorly explained and full of long drawn out portions where nothing happened FF6 had a story that was non-stop and far stronger on character development, for both good guys and bad guys. The idea that FF7 story was more mature is garbage. It was poorly done except for a couple real gems. FF6 story was all gems.

why is it everywhere i go people with the word "amazing" in there usernames seem to troll like crazy, have you actually played FF7, they give a very good saddening story (a full story i might add) for vincents introverted attitude, as for sephiroth, you really can't blame him for getting things wrong when the other villians of the story (yes, there is more than one villian) go out of there way to make sure Sephiroth didn't know the truths. for instance, imagine a young sephiroth, now imagine if the walking monkey in glasses (Hoji) walked up to sephiroth and said "i'm your father and i'm proud of you" instead of saying "GET IN THE TRAINING ROOM AND KILL A BUNCH OF SUPER MONSTERS WHILE I LAUGH AND TYPE ON COMPUTERS". what if someone had the brains to walk up to sephiroth and explain things to him, rather than him having to find out from a bunch of books in an old mansion and realizing no one cared about him, ever. i dislike borrowing from crisis core, but you also must incorporate the fact that he loses his two only friends, which, to someone who is as introverted as he, CAN lead someone to become relatively weak in the mind, which of course, can lead to a full snap. then he goes about taking his vengeance on the people who he believes are responsible for taking his entire race from him (at this point reason no longer works, simply saying "your not a cetra" won't work). he messes with the main characters mind constantly, not because he had to, but simply because of his hatred, he then takes away an innocent girl who only wanted the world to keep on going, not to mention a serious love interest to the main character, this combined with him making sure cloud knows that if sephiroth hadn't done it, Cloud eventually would have himself. then he prepared to do exactly what kefka did, but instead of doing it over a time, he planned to do it in one fell swoop, meteor hits and BAM! instant vengeance and sephiroth becomes a god, should his plan have succeeded, he also likely would have been completely immortal i might add. and finally, the last thing to note (yes this is important) is how he is defeated. to steal from one of kudistos's arguements, it was Sephiroth's arrogance that defeated him. if he had decided to do so, he could have easily destroyed the entire party many times, but his arrogance wouldn't let him, he enjoyed playing with cloud's mind, enjoyed watching the suffering, all the while cooped up in a nice little ice haven, in the end it wasn't only cloud and friends that stopped him (if he can ever truly be stopped) it was his own foolish arrogance, which leaves him with that weakness, and every good villian should have one good weakness for the stories sake.