Author Topic: Novice at work  (Read 3805 times)

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Novice at work
« on: 2012-02-26 21:13:56 »
So since joining the forum as i am pretty good at photoshop and very keen to make modeling my hobby i have researched alot got 3DSmax 10 but i hear there are some new others that could be better, however i have been learning very basic modling skills and hoping to pick it up very quickly (as quickly as it can be i know its tedious but so is art)

I have set myself a task already of creating a neat looking Buster Sword, although i need about a week i think to get to grips with the user interface and tools in 3DSmax and also combining it with textures using photoshop (which i think will be more my forte' as it were) i have found 1 problem already after making version 1.00 of my buster sword basic model and learning the basics to UV maps/un wrapping and linking my model to a .psd file in real time using PS CS 5.1 i notice i can place images in and they show nicely however if i use any tools from photoshop on the texture it shows on my model like rainbow pixels, is there any reason for this?

Also if anyone has any tips or good guides on 3DS max (im getting stuck with things like bonding 2 objects together atm) im using some i find in utube atm and they are tedious to listen to at the very least with bad mics and such.

Anyway i will keep plodding on and hopefully will have some images of my first attempt at a weapon model up soon :D

Love the community and kudos to all you peeps.

Regards.

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #1 on: 2012-02-27 07:00:02 »
After more playing around last night i think i'll be ok for now with 3ds max however im not sure why some textures from photoshop are showing as rainbow pixels :D
Any tips welcomed

LeonhartGR

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Karma: 33
  • ~Whatever...~ Finally married to my "Rinoa"!
    • View Profile
    • LeonhartGR Productions
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #2 on: 2012-02-27 08:53:07 »
Good luck with your project :) !
« Last Edit: 2012-02-28 10:17:23 by Leonhart7413 »

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #3 on: 2012-02-27 09:40:54 »
hi Leonhart7413,

I've no experience with this program when i dabbled in video editing i used sony vegas amongst others sorry.

Here is the problem i am having at the moment,

When adding textures from reference images via photoshop i get a decent result in realtime in 3dsmax ;




However when i edit within photoshop w/brushes or any other i get this type of result in 3dsmax ;
this was just a white line with hard brush but shows as rainbow pixels :)



If anyone knows why this is happening please let me know i am wondering if maybe i did un wrapping incorrectly or maybe my canvas in photoshop isnt setup for 3ds to handle ?

Another question, if i were to start making a character model, are things like scaling and body parts essential or can you just dive into creating a model and then think about adding it to the game and all that jaz later on, or is it just 'lost' work? Am i making sense? For example if i created a neat model 'all in one' as it were is that the end of the world or do people generally split the arms/hands/head etc towards the end? I'm trying my best to see videos and such in youtube and get a good grasp at the proccesses involved i have also played with importing models and looking at how they are built up but they seem to be 'all in one' type of deals.

I can see you could create each arm, leg, foot, hand etc separatly however this would be very difficult, i know i sound like a noob but i am trying to get the hang of it and experimenting all the time. If someone has the time to explain to me a few good pointers on here or via skype or even pms i would greatly appriciate it. Maybe it would be that there are some practices i should be doing regarding using models from the game to mess around with.

I have opened my lgps located for example 'cloud' then opened him up in kimera where you can see him nicely ) or biturn and converted him into obj or 3ds file then you can see him in 3dsmax, this shows in battle stance obviously from battle.lgp
Im figuring you need to create a model in the T shape stance maybe for ease, im just a tad stuck understanding the proccesses, sorry for wall of text and also for the questions, meanwhile i'll keep scouting youtube for 3ds max vids but i am having trouble because most 'good' tuts i find are working with single objects and not human types that will be going into a game. Thank you for reading )

(Oh and do you need to create skeleton from start hehe)
« Last Edit: 2012-02-27 12:31:50 by PhoenixDown »

BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #4 on: 2012-02-27 18:58:32 »
Make sure that you've selected 8-bit RGB mode in PS (Image>Mode) - 3DSMAX Doesn't like anything else for some reason.

Regarding the building of character models - it really depends. If the model's sole purpose is going to be for import into FF7 as a field model or possibly battle model, I'd make it in parts. Just because it's going to be a lot easier that way since you're optimising not only for the specific style, but also for the way the engine works as well. If you're building something that'll be seen or animated as a standalone piece of artwork or for importing into something that supports mesh deformation, your best bet will be making it as a straight model.

Compare: TA Cloud (specifically designed for FF7 - built in parts) and APZ Cloud (built as one piece and cut up).
(Images not for comparing the finished work, as APZ' Cloud has not been completed)
« Last Edit: 2012-02-27 19:16:44 by BlitzNCS »

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #5 on: 2012-02-27 21:00:25 »
Hi man thanks for for the tips, yea i have been looking at APZ work its awesome and so is TA and everyone elses.

So as for creating models in parts i guess importing a model to see what it splits down to is the best way.. also as for making a complete model all in one its not the end of the world as it can be cut up and i guess the same goes for scaling? I have no idea how big to make anything from the begining.

Im going to try some swords but i wanna throw myself into a little bit of character modeling mainly for learning more complex stuff and making mistakes in order to learn from them ha.

What i have done is imported a 3d mesh of a cloud head. i have seen tutorials on creating a plane with an image material of front and side views for reference. Is there a way i can do this using a 3d model as a reference without it being in my way all the time?
I appriciate all the tips they are almost more useful that full tutorials.

Regards



BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #6 on: 2012-02-27 21:56:05 »
Yeah - export straight from Biturn (or whatever the most stable conversion tool is) and you should get perfect scale and the default pose if you're working with field models. Battle models are a bit less stable - you'll get the first frame of the idle battle animation when exporting the model as a whole, and the scale will almost always be off (will still be an easily fixable multiple in most cases).
So, in the case of modelling battle models, import the battle pose, move parts around to be more workable, and base size and scale on the imported model.

For Reimporting, you can use the .p files for proper positioning and scaling (even if it is off initially), so don't worry about all that too much when modelling.

As for using 3D reference without it imposing on what you're doing, you can change it's display options in the display panel on the right


I find that making the model see-through as well as frozen is especially helpful.

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #7 on: 2012-02-28 06:22:06 »
Thanks man you are very helpful indeed
Hopefully i will have ' something ' to show soon i am learning alot

BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #8 on: 2012-02-28 12:56:06 »
Glad I could help - I look forward to seeing your contributions; looking good from what I can see!

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #9 on: 2012-02-28 20:01:30 »
I have started a 1st attempt at a head 'frame'

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/cloud_head_frame_1.jpg

I based it off reference pics of cloud strife however it won't turn out like him i am sure, just taking it 1 step at a time learning all the way though )
Right now im like 'how the **** do you make hair and stuff lol'

Anyway i'll keep you posted and also if i run in to trouble i'll be sure to give you a shout, im keen to get messing with textures but i need to get basic modeling skills first i think P

*I've since noticed for a character model it could do with being alot simpler than this, with less/bigger polygons but still this is fun and im just starting to get used to the user interface which can't be a bad thing, Is there some special technique to this larger triangle type polys rather than the way i am going about it? cheers xD
« Last Edit: 2012-02-28 21:17:57 by PhoenixDown »

LeonhartGR

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Karma: 33
  • ~Whatever...~ Finally married to my "Rinoa"!
    • View Profile
    • LeonhartGR Productions
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #10 on: 2012-02-28 21:58:57 »
Please make a realistic model of Cloud like he appears in the technical demo if you do :P :P I wish I could play with all realistic models :P

Take these into consideration too ;)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qEBq8vRACXo/TqDYiyRimvI/AAAAAAAAAwE/GI4d2gmkQLg/s1600/8-squall-c2.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeTvzOYJ50QCsqvseSOAuUy1KsVTHcikjQhlMJuT8-YatQKWI1g-XdBCqlgQ
« Last Edit: 2012-02-29 09:29:16 by Leonhart7413 »

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #11 on: 2012-02-29 21:07:37 »
Did a little more playing about today and learned more about references and reference planes, cool stuff really having a ball ;
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/Cloud_face_remodel_2.jpg

I have no idea about rendering process or anything beond just making new polys at the moment but im sure soon i need to think about looking forward as i can see using the render button has some effect on the model and i can see 'bad' parts in it, does anyone know if all this needs to be 'welded' to be a model you can use in a game? or can it be 'open edged' or whatever, any tips very welcomed ) cheers

(oh 1 question for you pro's, when i find myself with an empty space thats a triangle, how to i fill it with a triangular polygon? the 'Bridge' tool only works on squares as far as i can see but there must be a way im sure. thanks)
« Last Edit: 2012-02-29 21:11:21 by PhoenixDown »

BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #12 on: 2012-02-29 22:10:43 »
Rendering is a kettle of fish you only need to worry about if you like to show off your work (like me :P)

Welding, however, should be a practice you get into without thinking about while you're making models. While not absolutely necessary, having a clean model that's not broken up without you knowing about is so helpful, especially when unwrapping UVs and making changes. Try clicking on single verticies and moving them once in a while to make sure everything's all connected - in time you'll make sure nothing you do introduces unwelded verts without you knowing.
Of course, every single hole and opening doesn't need to be closed up if you don't think it's necessary (i.e the bottom of a neck, if something else is covering it)

To fill in a hole with any amount of sides, select the polygon button in the edit poly modifier, and go down to create. As long as there are no flipped polygons surrounding the new one you want to create, you can select all the surrounding verts you want and then right click to get your new one.

Timu Sumisu

  • No life
  • *
  • Posts: 1860
  • Karma: 14
  • The Master
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #13 on: 2012-03-01 00:06:56 »
gratz on some very quick progress! you're learning fast. BTW NCS, my cloud mesh looks sick all cell shaded :P I should rez up the face and animate that bad boy

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #14 on: 2012-03-01 06:04:54 »
Thanks Timu you guys checkingmy thread as i go would help me continue to learn fast, i am guessing i need to finish the Head and then best way for hair is to freeze the head then try new object for hair, i am saving work in steps anyway so i can go back to some milestones :D

Blitz thanks for the info on tri polys really awesome :D

Heres where i am now, no idea what to do next lol ;
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/Cloud_face_remodel_weld.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/Cloud_face_remodel_weld2.jpg

I think i need to re work the mouth area' but i realize alot will be different when creating textures so, this why i saved in stages so i can just go back abit if its too terrible. As this is my first go and its primary purpose is to follow all the motions to get a char into the game for learning perposes im not too bothered, after i will probably start over with the skills/tips and knoledge i have learned to create a real nice model cloud and buster sword :D

Please advise me what to be looking at doing next, see ya later all
« Last Edit: 2012-03-01 07:04:52 by PhoenixDown »

BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #15 on: 2012-03-01 16:33:47 »
BTW NCS, my cloud mesh looks sick all cell shaded :P I should rez up the face and animate that bad boy
Oh haha, that's where that came from, I'd completely forgotten. I wondered how It had wound up on my PC, thought it was a little too good to have been made by me :P Would look awesome animated.

Phoenix, looking great - I suggest now you do a bit of cleaning up. More specifically, try to get everything that looks like a triangle but actually has 4 or more verts around it to actually be a real triangle - another thing that will help solve a lot of problems you might encounter later on. (Involves Target welding, easy!)

On top of this - quads are never actually quads. They will always be two Tris. The difference being that the model automatically decides which corners the split goes from. This could end up being problematic, especially when you're bending the quad slightly. (Example, you'd be much better off if the quad was split the second way, so might as well do it yourself rather than take the chance.)

To split a quad in Max, just select vertex editing in the edit poly modifier, and hit "cut", then make the cut between the two verts you want.
« Last Edit: 2012-03-01 16:44:16 by BlitzNCS »

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #16 on: 2012-03-01 16:53:04 »
Great stuff i will do that tomorrow as i will be heading out tonight, then after that i need to think about the hair maybe? do i create hair ontop of my model face? anyways thanks for the tips ill try clean it up tomorrow and up another screenie. Regards.


**EDIT** neat stuff just gave it a quick go http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/cloud_face_remodel_3.jpg
« Last Edit: 2012-03-01 17:14:52 by PhoenixDown »

BlitzNCS

  • Freak
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Karma: 2
  • Master of nothing in particular
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #17 on: 2012-03-01 16:59:36 »
Since you don't see the top of the head under the hair, you can build hair right into the top of the head, starting from the forehead and working up and round!

Since this is your first model, I have to say, UVing Cloud's hair is going to be a nightmare. Perhaps you're better leaving him bald :P

PhoenixDown

  • Fast newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Novice at work
« Reply #18 on: 2012-03-01 17:16:02 »
Haha the hair does look very very tricky as i wanna 'build' onto his face however, i dont wanna keep clicking face verts and sides my mistake lmfao.
Lol when you look at the photobucket link its in alot lower res than my screen and the render part looks really not bad )

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k164/shinobi61/cloud_face_remodel_3.jpg

I saw one tutorial where a guy had his model open in PS and he was painting directly onto the 3d model and it automatically put this onto the UV unwrapped map (correct terminology?) This looked the easiest way of doing the textures but is it really or do you lose quality?

Oh i ran into another problem, symmetry modifier........... how to i keep symmetry on the face but then continue to build say hair onto it without symmetry?

Thanks :D
« Last Edit: 2012-03-01 17:34:36 by PhoenixDown »