Author Topic: FFXIII?  (Read 34811 times)

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #75 on: 2011-09-12 15:17:15 »
I agree with gjoerulv. The older generations are always going to say that the newer generations games/music/movies/clothing/etc. are strawberries. It's a cycle, it won't ever stop.

And you know what I hate? I hate people (mostly my generation, maybe a little older) who repeatedly say Ocarina of Time and Final Fantasy VII are the best games of all time. Those games were made over 10 years ago, I think it's time to move on. And it's like they think those games didn't have any flaws. They weren't perfect, they had their flaws. Have you seen the N64 controller? That's a huge flaw right there. The controller layout was horrendous. In my honest opinion, Ocarina of Time was strawberries. I never liked it (Link to the Past was far superior but you never hear about that). FFVII isn't aging too well for me either. I'm not saying it was bad. It was a good game but people need to stop acting like it was perfect. It was far from perfect. I preferred FFVI over FFVII. But I also preferred FFXII over FFVI.

I keep hearing that people don't like FFXIII because it's different. So what? Games change. If games didn't change, we would still be playing Pitfall and Asteroids. Some change for the better (Fallout, Metroid) while some change for the worse (Legend of Zelda, Devil May Cry). Get over it.

/rant

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #76 on: 2011-09-12 15:27:44 »
Games do change, but they sometimes change for the better or worse (Last Story is infinitely better than 13).  Accepting FF13 means you deserve FF14 being crap.  And you deserve the 100 spin off cash ins.

If you didn't buy it they wouldn't keep churning it out.  The only ones laughing are Enix.  It isn't fair to draw a line under games 10 years ago and make a ridiculous excuse that "Today is different so the games are different"

If you bought a monitor in 2005 and 10 years later the LCD had gone to CRT, are you telling me you would embrace and welcome it as different and change?  No you'd say we had gone backward.  What makes a game series different?  I would wager it is nostalgia clouding your judgment.

Change for the worse is not innovation or clever.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-12 16:14:49 by DLPB »

Prince Lex

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #77 on: 2011-09-12 17:22:55 »
The idea that it's "change for the worse" is your opinion, not solid fact. Please try to bear that in mind to avoid people (justifiably) getting their backs up. Some people liked it, some people didn't. The fact is, the game is not a big piece of strawberries. It has plenty of positive aspects and a large number of people enjoyed it. The game is just completely overshadowed by superior entries in the series - and for good reason. They were totally epic.


gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #78 on: 2011-09-12 17:24:04 »
Change for the worse is not innovation or clever.

I can't see why anyone would disagree with this. Sometimes you step in the wrong direction. But if you don't try to walk forward you'll stay at the same spot. I think they did a (somewhat) honest attempt on creating something unique with 13. I can hardly imagine every single detail in the game was designed to earn cash, whit the developers evil grind $$ eyes overshadowing. Arguing with established fact to prove something that's ultimately opinion based doesn't serve one's case, no matter how "right" the view is.

Last story... Hmmm... Too bad I don't owe a wii. I'm not very impressed with Sakaguchi's work after he quit squeeny (FF10 included), so I'm not too exited. Uematsu still got it though. The Lost Odyssey soundtrack is godlike.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #79 on: 2011-09-12 17:42:35 »
The problem is it has been stepping backwards since FFX-2.

It has been 1 spin off after another, taking control way from the player, too many graphics and too little gameplay, poorer stories.  There is a reason it fell apart after X but it continues because people continue to accept it.

That is where my gripe is at. If FF13 was the first FF that reduced gameplay to second fiddle I would say "well it is 1 mistake"  but there is a deliberate trend towards churning out games as fast as possible because they know they will sell.  The series has become a victim of its own success.

Final Fantasy XIII-3?  Well you couldn't make it up.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-12 17:44:18 by DLPB »

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #80 on: 2011-09-12 18:02:13 »
If you look at this from a company's viewpoint, it's better to rush games that will sell than to take their time and try to produce something everyone will like. If they make games that are rushed and people buy it, why would they change their tactics?

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #81 on: 2011-09-12 18:15:56 »
@DLPB
In my book, X-2 is way worse than XIII. I agree 13 is not the first step in the wrong direction, but we disagree where it started. In my opinion, it started with 8, but, also imo, 9 redeemed the series at that point. After that FF10 was another step in the wrong direction. X-2 was most definitely a step in the wrong direction. Not only did it make put the decent story X had story to death, it was awkward and embarrassing beyond words. The design reeked. I must admit however that the actual gameplay was good. FF11... Wrong. I would accepted it as a spin-off series.

After all this crap I had very low expectation for 12 and 13. 12 was good, imo, but to late to save the series, besides, it would be better of not being a FF. I don't feel like it's a FF.

See, all the above are my opinions. We agree it went bad at some point, and that the reason mostly is because of too wealthy developers getting sloppy and too full of their selves. Some kids today probably started with 13, thinks the game is awesome and the older games' just crap. I'm not saying all kids, I'm saying some kids.

I don't think it's possible to stop squeeny by simply not buying their games. They are too well established to simply let some disappointed fans ruin the money train. I do believe however, that if enough people voice their opinion they may consider making a good game (lol If they're still capable). Maybe then, people will stop buying crap, and the world will be utopia with good games, awesome music and supreme movies.  ;D

hian

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #82 on: 2011-09-12 23:23:35 »
The easiest way to demonstrate when a series is going in the "wrong" direction, is to compare the core elements of the older games, and see how they would have held up against the newer releases, had they been released today.

I doubt anyone but the biggest fanboys would go "FF7 is the best game ever, per todays standard", and also claim that they weren't biased at all. Everybody knows it's a dated game. That isn't the point, nor why people think FF13 is bad.

Backwards bias(sour grapes so to speak) is just as bad as "nostalgia bias". If FF6/7/8/9 had been released today(by that, I mean we imagine that it wasn't released in the original format), with the same story(minus writing errors, and more general plot polish like the newer games), and the same gameplay, but with the production values of todays games(FF13 level graphics, sound quality, voice-acting), I think it would still probably be consider one of the best jrpgs ever made. I seriously doubt people would consider FF13 to be even close.

That's what most people mean when they point to newer Final Fantasies as being crap. Their only redeeming quality is that they are of current generation quality, and riding partly on a tried and tested formula, and partly on the good repuation of previous games.
I.E They are good in being average and of this generation.

The thing that sets the earlier FF games appart(most of all FF7, even by todays standards), is the leap they took.
Not just in terms of graphics and sound, but by bringing with it all the experience and aspects that was good with the previous games as well, and adding unto the experience with extra interactive gameplay elements, and more content in general.

FF10,12,13, however, all tried to a certain degree to start anew. Change stuff around, and re-envision the franchise. This is always a risk. I agree that it can be good to try a route like that, but it should never be done just for the sake of doing so, which is what it seemed SE did.
The irony of it all is that, as far as I know, there was never a large outcry for renovation in the FF franchise prior to the time where they actually started changing stuff(FF10 - At least FF10 didn't completely sh*t itself like FF12 did).

In the end though,  there really is no excuse to cut away at both gameplay, and content, compared to games over 10 years older. The newer FF games are guilty of this, whether people like it or not, and that's the issue.

Another thing worth mentioning though - A really good game/movie/book doesn't need a sequal to tie it off - And making a sequal to tie of a game that didn't need a sequal as an after-thought, is even worse.
As far as I'm concerned, that was the main reason why the "Squaresoft FF" franchise didn't have sequals.

Good sequals are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequal in mind.
Sequals should never be released as after-thoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-12 23:31:42 by hian »

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #83 on: 2011-09-13 02:39:02 »
The easiest way to demonstrate when a series is going in the "wrong" direction, is to compare the core elements of the older games, and see how they would have held up against the newer releases, had they been released today.

Backwards bias(sour grapes so to speak) is just as bad as "nostalgia bias". If FF6/7/8/9 had been released today(by that, I mean we imagine that it wasn't released in the original format), with the same story(minus writing errors, and more general plot polish like the newer games), and the same gameplay, but with the production values of todays games(FF13 level graphics, sound quality, voice-acting), I think it would still probably be consider one of the best jrpgs ever made. I seriously doubt people would consider FF13 to be even close.

I could agree to a certain extend, but then again who decides what the core elements are? Remember, FF was early on criticised for leaving it's roots. Also the later games are, after all, sequels to their predecessors. The experience from FF1 brought FF2 and so on. By this standard, FF1 may as well be the best. Imagine FF1 developed for the first time today: Give it some plot polish and production quality and voila! I think FF2 would be pretty different from FF1. If you polish them enough. No, I consider each game a part of that time. Even if you do it like this, you have to bring a great deal of imagination to the table, which tends to be biased. Your favs are your favs. I agree FF13 falls short in many ways, but I don't think we need those lenses to see it.

FF10,12,13, however, all tried to a certain degree to start anew. Change stuff around, and re-envision the franchise.

6 and 7 too. The steps just gets bigger for each entry. FF have always re-invented itself. It's the nature of FF.

In the end though,  there really is no excuse to cut away at both gameplay, and content, compared to games over 10 years older. The newer FF games are guilty of this, whether people like it or not, and that's the issue.

If some sh*tty aspects like sh*tty minigames are cut out, and not replaced by something else, I personally don't consider it a bad thing. A game should be judged on what it is, and/or what it strives to be, not what it never intended to be. Try to imagine what the developers want the gamers to experience.

Good sequals are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequal in mind.
Sequals should never be released as after-thoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.

I dunno, but I think 13 had several sequels in mind. Didn't the lead FF squeeny guy say it would continue for 10 years?
FF10 and FF7 were certainly not developed with a sequel in mind.

kicker

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #84 on: 2011-09-13 12:08:44 »
Good sequels are made(in most cases), because the original was made with the sequel in mind.
Sequels should never be released as afterthoughts to satisfy fan-cravings or to cover up faults in the original work.
That simply makes everything seem contrived and shallow - Which is exactly what FF10-2 did - and if I'm not much mistaken, what FF13-2 too.

 I have to disagree with you there. As you may have noticed FFVII has worked on a similar principal and as far as i am concerned it was pretty epic. I enjoyed pretty much almost everything of DoC and of Crisis Core. (Not to mention the movies which were awesome too ^^ )

Also you guys said something about how much time the company spends on a new title and the quality it gives to the game. I would like to point out the fact that FF versus XIII has been worked from Square for 6 years. So maybe just maybe while they work on Type-0 and FFXIII-2 too push them in market asap they take their time to make FF versusXIII so good that it will be the best come back of the company..Wouldn't you think so??

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #85 on: 2011-09-13 14:17:10 »
I agree with the other poster.  If you are making a game sequel because fans want you to it will always be a disaster and these sequels and prequels simply don't hold up well to VII.  They are designed with fanboyism in mind.

Full of retcons because VII is a complete game with hardly any loose ends. So we had to bring sep back (he was dead), we have to bring jenova back (she was gone), have to bring Hojo back (He was dead), have to bring Rufus back (he was blown to bits in his office and killed), have to mess with original story.

That is what Hollywood  does these days too.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-13 14:19:13 by DLPB »

kicker

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #86 on: 2011-09-13 15:26:06 »
Well that's because sometimes you never really want something so good end so fast. All these sidegames and movies were appreciated by the crowd and that made them successful. When customers feel that someone listens to them and make some of their wishes come true they create income to the companies. A happy customer means a lot of money and fans.They will even make Sailor moon appear in the game if that satisfies the majority of the crowd. That's the way the cookie crumbles these days. Don't forget that when Square created the game they didn't even know themselves that it would be that good with the fans. Regardless of the sales that made the company was still bought though..

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #87 on: 2011-09-13 15:54:14 »
Rather than all these spin offs we could have had an epic game or 2 instead.  They chose money over art.

It isn't like it is a case or having them or not, it is a case of having a new original game or spin offs.

Tenko Kuugen

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #88 on: 2011-09-13 16:33:39 »
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullshit
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #89 on: 2011-09-13 18:19:07 »
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullsh*t
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification

The only good news about this game would be that the entire division doing it BURNS DOWN. Including the responsible people.

Do you enjoy murder lol?
Are you suggesting someone else than yourself should decide what to enjoy, and what's good for you?  :o

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #90 on: 2011-09-13 18:40:31 »
The whole "let people enjoy what they like" thing is total bullshit
I enjoy MURDER and making people feel so bad about their lives that they will kill themselves by eating spoons. so could you kindly let me enjoy that by being my first victim?
That kind of logic can be applied to just about everything and just about everything ultimately gets a worse and worse standard every time a bad decision is made with that kind of justification
So you're saying people can't like FFXIII or its sequel just because you don't?

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #91 on: 2011-09-13 18:52:54 »
No I think he is saying that the game is flawed on numerous counts even if you like it.  And I agree with that.
Saying that you should allow people to like the game is just silly because in the end, if games are not criticised there is no incentive to change for the better.

I am sorry to see so many that will buy XIII-2 and 3 and anything else simply because it is FF and that's where Enix is laughing.  It doesn't help.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-13 18:55:06 by DLPB »

kicker

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #92 on: 2011-09-13 19:20:31 »
I'm not a really big fan of FF13 or FF13x-2. But you can't judge the game if you don't play it through. Maybe each person will find that little something that will make him like it. Also, even though they like it or not, what people say influences the market and the sales. For example, before releasing FF xiii type0 they have released demos and asked feedback for the game to improve it before giving it out to the market. If they released games and totally ignored the opinions of people then who would buy those games??

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #93 on: 2011-09-13 19:37:59 »
You can judge a game by reviews and youtube.  It is easy to do and it is the reason reviews exist.  So you can see if you want to buy it.  It is clear to everyone that Senix is ripping the piss out of people and blatantly profiting on its brand. 

All businesses do if they are allowed to.

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #94 on: 2011-09-13 20:38:33 »
Saying that you should allow people to like the game is just silly because in the end, if games are not criticised there is no incentive to change for the better.

I agree that the game has flaws but I still like it. Besides, EVERY game has flaws.

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #95 on: 2011-09-13 21:15:12 »
FF7 > every other FF, nuff said!

hian

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #96 on: 2011-09-13 23:00:19 »
I could agree to a certain extend, but then again who decides what the core elements are? Remember, FF was early on criticised for leaving it's roots. Also the later games are, after all, sequels to their predecessors. The experience from FF1 brought FF2 and so on. By this standard, FF1 may as well be the best. Imagine FF1 developed for the first time today: Give it some plot polish and production quality and voila! I think FF2 would be pretty different from FF1. If you polish them enough. No, I consider each game a part of that time. Even if you do it like this, you have to bring a great deal of imagination to the table, which tends to be biased. Your favs are your favs. I agree FF13 falls short in many ways, but I don't think we need those lenses to see it.

Who decides? Nobody. If I ask you what the core elements of a novel is, is that something somebody can redefine as they please at this point in time? Is it subjective? In a way, but at the same time, not at all it. Core elements by definition refers to the larger aspects that define the concept in question, which in this case is FF.
Nobody is saying the core elements of FF "should" be what they where back in the days - People are saying those core elements are better than the ones they use now. I happen to agree with that.

Your point is nitpicking on your part, and IMO, disingenuous when you consider the general nature of every FF game from 1 to 9(in part 10).
All these games, while making minor changes to the magic and battle system and slowly adding content, where in terms of the general formula, more or less exactly the same.

Sepparate battle and exploration screen, random encounters, world-map, full control of several party memember during battle,
and a "town/dungeon/world-map" exploration pattern broken up by minigame-like gameplay aspects, is basically a summary of the entire FF formula up to from 1-9.
Only with Tactics and 10 did they actually start to deviate from this.

If you consider this, FF1 and FF2 will not be much different no matter how much polish you give them. The only difference between these games lie in amount of content, battle tweaks and story.
Calling early FF games majorly different is as meaningless as saying Modern Warfare 1 and 2 are very different.
That's also where the biggest difference between the new and the old ones lie - While the old ones are sepparated by tweaks and amount of content, the new ones are sepparated from the old by simply removing large parts of the old gameplay elements, and content, and pushing more focus on presentation instead.

6 and 7 too. The steps just gets bigger for each entry. FF have always re-invented itself. It's the nature of FF.

People like to say this, but that isn't really true. The first time FF really reinvented itself is with the release of Tactics.
Before that, all they did was tweak the same old formula. People only blow this out of proportions because most people seemed to find it so amazing and original to have a series where each game was story- and setting-wise completely irrelevant to the next.

If some sh*tty aspects like sh*tty minigames are cut out, and not replaced by something else, I personally don't consider it a bad thing. A game should be judged on what it is, and/or what it strives to be, not what it never intended to be. Try to imagine what the developers want the gamers to experience.

That's fine, but and rpg is an rpg. FF13 has cut out of basically everything except for the battle-system and the presentation of the story. No matter how you twist or turn it, that is a step backwards in terms of production regardless of what type of art we're talking about.

And we're judging it on what it is - A Final Fantasy game, and rpg, a story-telling device and a piece of art, which is released in the wake of tons of other similar pieces. Trying to judge a game completely devoid of context isn't only probably impossible, but not a good thing because it would ruin any sense of standard, and hence any basis for judging something to begin with.

FF13, lacks large amounts of gameplay and content compared to earlier titles. That's a fact. Some might find those lacks to be a pluss. Most people don't. This is easily demonstrated. Maybe SE wants to produce interactive movies, with little to no gameplay. Maybe that's what they want us to experience. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to pay for that, or "play" it.

And to try to argue that such a piece is better, or a step in a good direction from a perspective where you take into acount things like genre, background, and what games are to begin with, just doesn't float.

I dunno, but I think 13 had several sequels in mind. Didn't the lead FF squeeny guy say it would continue for 10 years?
FF10 and FF7 were certainly not developed with a sequel in mind.

Maybe it was - maybe it wasn't. I doubt it was when it was on the drawboard - which is what makes the entire difference.

And, what's your point? Appart from the battle system, FF10-2 was a steaming pile of garbage IMO, and the same applies to every spin-off related to FF7. This just reiterates my point, that you shouldn't create spin-off, sequals or prequels to stories that weren't designed with that idea to begin with.

I have to disagree with you there. As you may have noticed FFVII has worked on a similar principal and as far as i am concerned it was pretty epic. I enjoyed pretty much almost everything of DoC and of Crisis Core. (Not to mention the movies which were awesome too ^^ )

As you're entitled to. I enjoyed the 90s show about  Sinbad the sailor, I still know that it was, in terms of quality, completely horrible.

People need to divorce the emotion "like", from the concept we call "quality". The two are not necessarily inter-related.

DoC was a mediocre/poor 3rd person shooter(compare it to any other high-ranking game in the genre), Crisis Core bastardized the original story of FF7, and AC was, except for the animation quality(which still completely breaks with the original vision of the art), as completely "B" in every sense of the term.

I though AC and CC was great fun too though. Same goes for FF13 - But seriously, taking into account the times for which each FF game was released, and the progression between each game, I have a very hard time taking seriously anyone who thinks FF13 is a step forward in the series in any way at all, except for in its presentation.

DarkFang

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #97 on: 2011-09-13 23:30:44 »
FF7 > every other FF, nuff said!

Take your fanboyism somewhere else. It's one thing to state FF7 is better than any other FF and then post why, but you just blatantly posted it without any explanation.

gjoerulv

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #98 on: 2011-09-14 10:29:07 »
@hian
You said one way to see where a series goes wrong is to imagine it today and see where it starts to deviate from the core. Then I said you don't need to. You don't need those lenses to see it. FF13 is still worse than FF4 if you judge 'em by the time they're released. Am I'm disingenuous? What was my point? Don't you agree if you imagine enough, anything can be anything. I was not trying to correct you.

I would disagree with you if you state FF started to change with FF10. Again: FF have always re-invented itself, and you can't count spinoffs like FF tactics in the picture.

I'm not trying to defend FF13 in any way. If anything, I'm pointing out how bad of an FF it is.

Maybe it was - maybe it wasn't. I doubt it was when it was on the drawboard - which is what makes the entire difference.

And, what's your point? Appart from the battle system, FF10-2 was a steaming pile of garbage IMO, and the same applies to every spin-off related to FF7. This just reiterates my point, that you shouldn't create spin-off, sequals or prequels to stories that weren't designed with that idea to begin with.

I don't know If there was a plan for a sequel(s). All I'm saying is that what SE executives said about FF13 in the past, and all the other 13 releases, suggest they may have had one or more in mind.

Whats my point? I'm pointing out that you are right. Making a sequel that was not intended (almost) always falls short compared to the original.

DLPB

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Re: FFXIII?
« Reply #99 on: 2011-09-14 12:43:20 »
It is simple really.  Dialogue and story of FF13 are simple but convulted.  Illogical and also needed manuals for exposition.  That isn't a good thing it tells you it is bad.

NPC, towns, minigames, sidequests and exploration are crititical to jrpg, and they removed the vast bulk.  That isn't a good thing.

Whilst you are free to like that personally, that can never be a good thing in a genre which is based around it.  People buy jrpg generally because they expect jrpg.  They do not expect a game which has had its heart and soul ripped out to appeal to FPS generation.